478 replies to this topic

[Cephalon]

Hi Health Nutty,

Are you refering to the fluroamphetamines or Craze?

As I just tried 3-fa, I find it really different. Both have a great moodlift, but while on Craze I feel actualy quite "healthy" (wellbeing) on 3-fa I felt pretty drugged.
3-fa felt like coming on MDMA or Methylone for me. I was afraid I was going to trip any minute, but the feeling soon settled. It did not feel bad, but it only had recreational qualities, which I am not really looking for.

Since 4-fa is supposed to have an even stronger serotonic action than 3-fa I doubt it will be suitable as a study aid. I found 3-fa actually raised attention, but hanging out and listening to music was more what I was up to

For me, as stated before Craze is another league when it comes to study aids. Not because it's strong - I actually found 3-fa to be stronger (got huge pupils also) Craze is the better choice in my oppinion if you are looking for a clean stimulant. Craze does not have the cold cleaness of substances like Ritalin though. It has a real cheerfull good mood fresh clearness to me.
I couldn't find much positive from DMAA. I gave it several tries and while I got a strong effect, it was mostly peripheral. It was so rushy on the head, it's more like an resless nervouse caffeine like feeling. Craze actually relaxes me, which is odd but I have this from some amphetamines as well and just enhances my thinking.

Have been off it for 2 days now. Will give it a go tomorrow again

USPLabs already have a replacement for Jack3d in the pipline, excited if we will see familiar compounds. Sill they run this site to further support DMAA: dmaaresearch.com



I will give 4-fa a shot when exams are over and'll report back

Golden, aren't you actually concerned about the fluor? Do you know hpw the x-fa's are metabolised?
Guess fluor isn't too healthy other than in ppm in toothpastes
That would be another reason, why fluroamphetamines are no long term solution for me.
(with longterm, I actually mean several days in a row to get stuff done for school, but as every day use)

Edited by Cephalon, 16 July 2012 - 05:08 AM.

[medievil]

Craze doesnt really fix me up like da releasers, it feels simular to dari's like the increased da is there but something is lacking wich i beleive is the glutamate release (amp and prob mpa too release glutamate and d serine wich would be highly therapeutic for shizo or simular things.)

I could try to replicate it by adding glutaminergics like d serine, preg, nefiracetam etc in the past in combo with risperdal, GBL (releases glut) and other things ritalin was identially therapeutic compared to amp so it must be possible.

Edited by medievil, 16 July 2012 - 07:01 AM.

[medievil]

Also it caused some sort of anxiety, like i constantly felt my heartbeat in the background and my focus was on that wich was rather anoying, releasers dont cause that much anxiety for me also wich is explained by the glutaminergic action fixing the gaba defiency in shizo (nmda hypoactivity causes gaba defiency) and they also release gaba. Those things explain why releases counteract my shizo caused imunity for benzo's. (they are pams but because of gaba issues they arent therapeutic for positives in shizo they just pretty much dont do anything).

[golden1]

4-fa actually has papers on it and has long period of use considering most things and the ingredients in craze :P , and afaik it is not metabolized because of the fluorine in the 4pos which helps regarding neurotoxicity, however idk if that Is true. fluorine isn't going to come off the ring though afaik and as pos 4, it's blocking the normal path of metabolism. also if it did come off the amount would be of no matter from what I"ve read.

I'm not recommending it over anything, just saying 4-fa is infinitely better for anything compared to 3-fa, if you look at the serotonin release it really isn't even very much for 4-fa(on paper, and nichols found no lasting neurotoxicity by means of checking lowered serotonin for longer than 24 hrs after administration which didn't occur with 4-fa (ineither monkeyor mouseorrator something).

Am I worried? With 4-fa in particular, no, someof the other ones like 2-fa smelt like fluoride which worried me.. lol, but in general. no, my use of it(I have no more, but used 5 grams) didn't worry me or leave any after effects.

[Cephalon]

Hey Golden,

I must agree, that the main advantage with 4-fa is, that you actually use one single compound.
From what I understand, the ingredients in CRAZE work together like some sort of preworkout ayahuasca drink.
There are many places stating, that NMT for instance was pretty much inactive, having a halflife of 5 minutes and being metabolized in Tyramine.
I don't think N,N Dimethylphenylethylamine has a long halflife either, in case it realy is the compound used as a radioactive marker in brain research.
Would expect to be prett quickly taken down by MAO. So would be PEA. I guess the main principle is, that some ingredients just serve as a substrate
for MAO to protect the one key compound in Craze being actually active (which ever this may be).
One needs to consider, that Citramine for instance should consist not only NMT but Narinigin which blocks enzymatic degeneration as well.
And if it actually has Tryptamines in it (if acacia extract was used) the real scarry part just beginns.
Octopamine may also be involved. So even if everything was on the label it would be hard to point down on the mechansims involved.
It could be a mix of MAOI, DAT inhibition, Releasing agent, P450 inhibition ...
At least with 4-fa the mechanisms are somewhat known.

[Cephalon]

Also it caused some sort of anxiety, like i constantly felt my heartbeat in the background and my focus was on that wich was rather anoying, releasers dont cause that much anxiety for me also wich is explained by the glutaminergic action fixing the gaba defiency in shizo (nmda hypoactivity causes gaba defiency) and they also release gaba. Those things explain why releases counteract my shizo caused imunity for benzo's. (they are pams but because of gaba issues they arent therapeutic for positives in shizo they just pretty much dont do anything).

How much did you take medievil?

Had no problems at 1 scoop and have quite a sensitive heart since I messed with it in the past I guess
(Clenbuterol, Ephedrine + Yohimbine + Aspirin + Caffeine Stack, T4, Prohormones, AIs, Poppers ... Intermittent fasting )

Edited by Cephalon, 16 July 2012 - 01:19 PM.

[golden1]

You could take low dose phenethylamine with it to see if it is indeed allowing the other ones to last longer in the brain, which i think was one of your theories yeah?
Or DMT, but that is mostly mao-a..could test inhibition of both mao that way hahah

[Cephalon]

Hey Golden,

That's a good idea (with the PEA)! But I don't have any left and I don't want to play guinea pig just before the next exam
Won't smoke DMT or lick toads either When I was young I always wanted to have a colorado river toad as a pet, though

Medievil,

May it be to the other supps & drugs you take? SSRI?

Edited by Cephalon, 16 July 2012 - 01:39 PM.

[medievil]

Im really sensitive to stim anxiety after my progression to shizo started so its prob not any other meds or sups.

I need about 2 scoops for good effects.

It doesnt make me talkative for that long, just a few hours so i prob respond mostly to certain actives in it.

[Junk Master]

I still think it's by far the best pre-workout drink I've ever used for endurance exercise and I've used most legal, and grey market supps (and a few that require a prescription-- like Modafinil) out there.

I like the low levels of caffeine. I add a sugar free Red Bull to 1/2 a scoop and 4 grams Piracetam if I need to fly though a chunk of reading.

[Cephalon]

Have to try mixing it with Piracetam too! I also enjoy an espresso shot when the peak settled, as I find the additional coffeine to be really tollerable.

Today I have really odd effects with it. It will be due I used Kratom (I know that's not a good thing to do) a little in excess as it helps me concentrate as well and I thought it was better then taking Craze late in the day. Also I wanted to stay away from Craze a day or two just to see what happens. So I felt a little drugged from the Kratom this morning still. After taking a scoop of Craze and waiting for 30 minutes I started to feel very uncomfortable. Mentaly and physically. I still feel that way, but it's not out of control or anything. Mentaly I feel abit, well strange - together with inner tension and restlessness. Physically I feel extreme lightheadness. As if I would pass out if jumping up to quick. I think it's reckless of me to use them in any timeframe less then 48h. Kratom alkaloids are mostly indoles as Tryptamin. So I could imagine there is either some MAO-A activity in Craze (and there is some in Kratom as well) or it's because both mess with the P450 enzymes.
It may also be, because Kratom has some effects on alpha and beta adrenergic receptors? It has some compounds related to yohimbine as well.
I can't tollerate yohimine at all (was in the ER once getting injections, beta blockers, nitroglycerine ... after taking twinlab yohimbe extract).
Have to do alot breaks from studying because of the restlessness and wired thoughts.
Absolutely not recommended. Can't imagine it's due to the Craze, but the combination of both. (bear in mind if Kratom is used right before sleep, it will most likely be released really slow, since it a) acts as an opioid in the testines, slowing down everything there b) i imagine peristaltic is reduced during sleep anyways. Also I still felt really drugged this morning, and hoped Craze would counteract this.

[Junk Master]

I HATE Yohimbine. Makes me feel terrible. Check out this study where they gave Yohimbine and naloxone to squirrel monkeys to increase vocalization.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2908063

Yeah, they twittered more because they felt like CRAP.

BTW They should use your description, "From what I understand, the ingredients in CRAZE work together like some sort of preworkout ayahuasca drink" in their ads!

[Cephalon]

Shit messed up my initial post by switching to HTML.
Wanted to include a graphic I made to illustrate the mechanisms of action, since I found the one on the Craze page to be to complex.
Nobody will understand that stuff, without an degree in chemestry or something ...

Edited by Cephalon, 16 July 2012 - 09:48 PM.

[medievil]

Had yohimbe extract once to counteract stim induced limp dick but it even didnt go up after i took nearly the full bottle, never tried the pure stit tough but it sounds terrible, no reason to bother with the shit anyway.

[medievil]

Feels simular to a treshold 2CB dose this time the craze stuff, interesting.

[gizmobrain]

In regards to Yohimbine:

Just make sure you get pure Yohimbine HCL and not a standardized Yohimbe bark extract. The other alkaloids in Yohimbe bark cause intense side effects and can even cause heart damage. I shudder everytime I pick up an "energy blend" or "sexual enhancer" that says "Yohimbine" on the front, but on the back label it says "Yohimbe Bark Extract (standardized for 2% yohimbine)". Of the 3 times I've tried Yohimbe bark extracts, I've had 3 terrible experiences. Nausea, tachycardia, sweating, and skin flushing. However, pure Yohimbine HCL has only caused increased heart rate.

Not that I necessarily recommend Yohimbine (though it would be interesting in combination with an α2A receptor agonist, given its interesting pharmacology).

(anyone had any negative mental effects from Craze alone? - haven't slept much this week, maybe 4h a day. This has to be considered as well ...)

I think a lot of people have had negative mental effects from Craze, and also insomnia...

Edited by zrbarnes, 16 July 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[Cephalon]

Junk Master, I will check the study, that sounds interesting! About the advertisment that would be cool. I will shoot them a mail suggesting this.
How cool would that be. Some Iboga/ Ayahuasca drink, that let you go into extreme rage, working out for 3 days in a row coming in fat and lazy and out big and shredded

Hey Medi, Yes actually had the extract as well. I could not imagine what would happened if I had taken half the box! Just took a single pill.
Isn't 2-CB pretty psychedellic? I don't know much about it, other than it was pretty popular here end of the 90ies as a E replacement.
Do you have any empathic, entheogen effects from Craze? I hope so much Craze will keep the sharpness it has on the first attempts.
Not looking for something to trip ...


Zrbarnes, thanks for the info on the yohimbe extract. Yes I actually figured that out as well. There are all the Rauwolfia alkaloids in it ...
Right I actually had pure yohibine before and I could take quite alot sideeffect free. I think they were called Yohimbine Houde and came from France.
They are OTC there while in Germany you'd need a prescription - if we still have them at all. They were more popular before Viagra was available.

Do you know that with the mental effects? (yes you said think) Do you figure that from the ingredients?
Actually I felt perfect mental wise. So I would suppose it's just the mix. And I guess every stimulant is causing this, if you replace it with proper sleep ...

Edited by Cephalon, 16 July 2012 - 10:10 PM.

[gizmobrain]

Do you know that with the mental effects? (yes you said think) Do you figure that from the ingredients?
Actually I felt perfect mental wise. So I would suppose it's just the mix. And I guess every stimulant is causing this, if you replace it with proper sleep ...

I haven't tried it, so I don't know first hand. I've read that several people have had anxiety and insomnia (and paranoia). This is common for just about anything with strong stimulant properties.

Edited by zrbarnes, 16 July 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[Cephalon]

Yes I guess that is the price we pay ... nowadays, hope they will come up with The Next Next Big Craze not causing this
But I will give Craze a second chance in a few days, since I'm sure it's just the Kratom because this stuff can do alot to your neurochemistry I'm sure and the sleep deprivation. Didn't eat much lately due to stress. That's also a strange thing. I was prety hungry today, last times I used craze I had to force me to eat + when I felt so dizzy I laid down and actually slept for 15min or so.
(which left me even more confused, because I hitted some strange dream state ... No rainforest animals and native cults though ...)


So in a couple days, there will be a report how Craze is without any other factors. The label advises not to mix it with stuff, so nobody can realy blame the company there.
Also I feel fine again. It was for like 6 hours that I was feeling that uncomfortable - but nothing crazy. Just distracted me so much I couldn't read a single line of my textbooks ... last time on Craze I read like one book/hour



Here the graphic, hope that sheds some light on the biochemical pathways involved with CRAZE:





So when Craze passes the blood brain barrier and enters the brain, there is this huge blue lightning ball.
And this has to do with Dendrobium somehow, but actually we have no idea. But it has to do with neuroprotection,
like this study shows1, where this Chinese scientists found out, that Dendrobium has some effect on rat neurons, which are in the brain of rats. Like in the human brain, but there they are not called rat, but human neurons. But there must be this lighting ball sensation involved in both rats and humans due to both having neurons. But we do not want to go too much into detail here, since it's all really complex and boring ...

1Wang Q, Gong Q, Wu Q, Shi J. Neuroprotective effects of Dendrobium alkaloids on rat cortical neurons injured by oxygen-glucose deprivation and reperfusion. Phytomedicine. 2010 Feb;17(2):108-15

http://www.getds.com/Products/craze

Edited by Cephalon, 16 July 2012 - 10:38 PM.

[medievil]

You can take all psychedelics in treshold doses to get non psychedelic, stimulant, anxiolytic, antidepressant etc effects, (read wiki) 2CB in treshold doses is very simular to 5mg of amphetamine i also think that this stuff is more serotogenic in action then first tought.

[medievil]

" I don't know much about it, other than it was pretty popular here end of the 90ies as a E replacement."

Haha im actually a big fan of the illegality of mainstraim drugs as it caused alot of rc's to be available to bypass the law, cant be bothered with legalising crap anyway who cares with enough dealers around the block.

Thats it for my non related contribution haha.

[Cephalon]

Yes it's the same as with AMT right? When MDMA was used in psychology I guess they used just fragment amounts of what would be a recreational dose?
Hear of low dose applications of LSD as well ... a friend suggested it would be cool to spread a mushroom trip over a week, eating one after waking and one before bed as an antidepressant. But that won't work out I guess, since MAO would be taking it down to quick, right?

But then I would prefer Craze, where you have a company/ importeur being reliable. In the EU we wouldn't even need to show the product is actually dangerous. As long there is a single incident with the product the burden of proof will be reversed to the manufactorer/ importeur. But stuff like that will hopefully never be of our interest. I don't think it will, since Craze is on the market for a year now if I'm correct and they already sold a couple thousand tubs at least - without any known incidents

Edited by Cephalon, 16 July 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[medievil]

Amt is differened as its also a sero and da releaser.

no mdma is used in recreational doses for that as the experience can be introspective, ive used it for depression many times with consistent succes, im not usually depressed tough.

It would work mate:)

[health_nutty]

Hi Health Nutty,

Are you refering to the fluroamphetamines or Craze?

Both I suppose Thanks for the answer!

[Cephalon]

Hi Medievil,

Ah ok, thought 2-cb was similar - but I'm not so familiar with it honestly.
Just know that it was produced in prety large scale by "Drittewelle" in Germany, who were selling it as an aphrodisiac, and just read it was first synthezied by Shulgin.
Need to get his books some day - read he found some amazing substances. Did you here about the phenethylamine which was mostly an accustic halucinogen? Curious if that has any medical applications ... pretty limited use I guess, though it will be a crazy experiance I bet.

Is AMT actually legal in Belgium? I was toying with the idea of trying it, when I noticed it's a sheduled drug in Germany. It's sheduled in the US as well. You had a thread on this? Need to look it up.

You are welcome Nutty

If you have a medical condition I would strongly advise you to get a branded pharmaceutical product though, with a company liable.
If there are any issues with the x-FA or RC stims in general one is pretty lost. Having issues with such products never is great, but I guess Novartis & co. meet higher quality standards than most RC vendors online.

Edited by Cephalon, 17 July 2012 - 04:41 AM.

[medievil]

AMT is damn interesting, its a sero, da and sero agonist togheter and all of those individually have immense therapeutic potential wich makes it damn interesting for many differend disorders or other uses.

AMT is a must try imo, craze is too to put a list togheter of things that are a must try in the research chemical catergory. Id add treshold doses of DMT, 2CB and 2CD too that. As pure stimulants 3FA (never tried it myself tough but people like it), MPA and ethylphenidate and MDAI a pure sero releaser also is interesting in daily low doses (much stronger alternative to SSRI's). Downsides are that they are unresearched but its no diff from taking craze daily.

Taking rc's seems a nono to some but there are many nootropics ppl here take that havent been researched long term in humans at all, its no differened.

[medievil]

AMT is legal in belguim yes also in the uk where i currently stay.

[medievil]

I wonder what i can take the counteract the unpleasant jitters and anxiety on it, its not too bad but it makes me sit down instead of being productive, oters say that feeling "keeps them going" but i think its anoying.

Was thinking theanine or something.

[medievil]

Id say dosing every 3 hours would be optimal for me, i can only really feel it for about 3 hours.

[Hip]

There is a theoretical risk of seizures with those high levels of ALCAR that you are taking.

I find that L-carnitine 1000 mg also has a great nootropic effect, boosting focus and concentration (though unlike ALCAR which kicks in within an hour, L-carnitine take a good two hour or so to kick in, I find).

I would still include say 700 mg of ALCAR as well though. ALCAR has been shown to improve word recall and selection, which is good for writing.