478 replies to this topic

[Cephalon]

Wow totaly missed this post (see below) on MM, where Patrick Arnold was quoted claiming there was n-benzyl-2-pea in Craze which is not on the label:

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/forum/supplements-101/41533-ds-craze-preworkout-thoughts-2.html

http://www.sigmaaldr...ng=de&region=DE

[golden1]

Not really surprising, I had high doubts they happened to find some magic amphetamine plant combo... without adding anything but the normal bodybuilding things.

http://forum.bodybui...1#post904652783

http://forum.bodybui...1#post904693463

Edited by golden1, 19 July 2012 - 02:53 AM.

[OpaqueMind]

I ordered this after reading the first half of the thread. Wish I'd read a little bit further now :(

This basically just seems like it produces a massive SE/DA/NE dump, just like amphet/MDMA/cocaine. Obviously the ratios of release vary, but would this not most likely be neurotoxic in the long-run? Or at least cause severe downreglation?

Had terrible run-ins in the past with MDMA overdoses so my NT systems are pretty fragile. Don't really wanna be sticking a hammer in the works if ya know what I mean.

[Cephalon]

Not really surprising, I had high doubts they happened to find some magic amphetamine plant combo... without adding anything but the normal bodybuilding things.

http://forum.bodybui...1#post904652783

http://forum.bodybui...1#post904693463

Golden it's still plant derived - it's isolized from the acacia species I mentioned. While the safety of Craze is questionable- RC's have the same safety concerns with them and Craze works length better as all functional RC's I tried

Also bear in mind that this is a QUOTE of a CLAIM by Patrick Arnold who is involved in the supplement industry with his own products as a competitor.... Nothing official yet. I will look deeper into this.

Update: n-benzyl-2-pea was NOT detected in Craze according to the analysis that was posted a few pages back. So we are again with the stuff on the label. Nothing in Craze that is not listed at this time of investigation...

Edited by Cephalon, 19 July 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[GettingThere]

Anyone willing to be a good sport and report their resting heart rate & blood pressure while on craze and also on non-craze days during weeks of craze use and compare those measurements to their pre-craze numbers? It just sounds as though, while it may not be neurotoxic to any significant degree, there are probably some cardiovascular side effects from this stuff, specifically raised blood pressure and heart rate. I'm interested to see if using it 2-3 times/week for a couple weeks would raise these measurements on "off" days, or if the effects are limited to days when craze is used.

[golden1]

Not really surprising, I had high doubts they happened to find some magic amphetamine plant combo... without adding anything but the normal bodybuilding things.

http://forum.bodybui...1#post904652783

http://forum.bodybui...1#post904693463

Golden it's still plant derived - it's isolized from the acacia species I mentioned. While the safety of Craze is questionable- RC's have the same safety concerns with them and Craze works length better as all functional RC's I tried.

Honestly I doubt that, highly doubt that all of this is from a plant/plants in such quantity and that it just so happens to work out so good. You can see other people doubt it too and it's not like it would be the first time. You can't stop my doubt brah! I was sharing links and info, and the information provided from those threads support what I said in a couple ways.


If you went out and got these plants, managed to create an extract strong enough to to feel similar effects then I will be willing to believe the company otherwise, its not the first time chemicals have been added to plant extracts/etc to try to bypass the law(in fact it happens in so many areas, even the whole spice thing started out with no one knowing there was JWH in it.)

Until then, I think they simply found sources of worthwhile looking chemicals, bought the plants and bulk chemicals that have been found in those plants and mixed them for a much better profit ratio and sustainability factor than using simple plant extracts alone.

And being as dangerous/safe as RCs isn't really saying much, nor is saying the chemicals were added by the company really add any more danger to it. chemicals are chemicals so the danger of them coming from plants or being added doesn't matter.

[Cephalon]

Really happy that the benzyl stuff is off the discussion as it appeared to be scarry stuff interfering with RNA synthesis in bacteria and messing with Serotonin receptors...

Wish there was more info about DMPEA and the DiethylPEA. Digging for stuff tuat's not on the label is a waste of time as long as we are not sure the things in the label are responsible for the strong effects. Just because it's on the label does not mean it is not effective We are not talking about Caffeine or something but a phenethylamine which is closely related to alpha phenethylamines...

[Cephalon]

I do not say that plant material is used? I doubt that my self. I just say that those substances are not manmade but of natural origien. That does not make them any better. It's just about the legal compliance with the analogue act. Nothing else. The stuff on the label will come from a lab - no point in using extracts.

The links you provided came out to be irelevant since they are based on the claim by Patrick Arnold, which DS has proven to be without reason. Craze did not contain benzyl PEA - there is no prove PA actually tested Craze - he has his own supplements for sale so his findings are of no relevance anyways.

At this point Craze is no better nor worse then RC other than having a company responsible for damages, while RC vendors sell their products not for human consumption making them not liable. So given the fact Craze works better for me and DS and the retailer in Germany being liable makes the choice pretty easy for me.

Edited by Cephalon, 19 July 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[golden1]

There is literally nothing wrong with 5ht2a receptor activation, BTW, which I'm guessing yyou know, but that was the guys whole point of how it was bad(eventhough theresno proof at all except a misintrerpreted study that it is a 5ht2a agonist in the first place lawl). That is how psychedelics work and he is referencing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25I-NBOMe and such with the study he used to say the n-benzl-phenethylamine is active at 5ht2a when it is quite different in structure than those(which are highly potent 5ht2a agonists). Normal people don't suicide from doing too many psychedelics or I would be dead for sure, having had 5ht2a agonism constantly for over a week more than once, hahah.

And I'm glad it works for you.. I don't call people out for taking risks, I just ask some questions and state my opinion because I know I've done worse myself than taken craze... hahhahah

Also you brought n-benzyl-phenethylamine up, I don't body build or know who works for what company, so I took your post as it was and read the threads, ha, my bad.

Edited by golden1, 19 July 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[OpaqueMind]

At this point Craze is no better nor worse then RC other than having a company responsible for damages, while RC vendors sell their products not for human consumption making them not liable. So given the fact Craze works better for me and DS and the retailer in Germany being liable makes the choice pretty easy for me.

It is in a way worse than RCs purely because it's marketed as a pre-workout supp that crazy-ass bench junkies will down repeatedly without hesitation, until some serious shit happens and they realise they fried their brains 6 months down the road... although I can't imagine self-reflection is a usual strongpoint within that community lol.

Considering it arrived today I tried 2/3 of a scoop against my better judgement, along with preventative measures (ALA, piracetam, magnesium etc.) and I gotta say it's helped me bang out an essay that'd been looming over my head with speed and eloquence. It's actually been pretty easy and enjoyable, whereas I usually have massive trouble staying on task!

Edited by OpaqueMind, 19 July 2012 - 04:22 PM.

[golden1]

It is in a way worse than RCs purely because it's marketed as a pre-workout supp that crazy-ass bench junkies will down repeatedly without hesitation, until some serious shit happens and they realise they fried their brains 6 months down the road... although I can't imagine self-reflection is a usual strongpoint within that community lol.

How is this a problem?(half-joking) Wouldn't mind if a lot of that scene just disappeared...oops haha what did I just say?_{survival of the fittest, in this case mentally, hahah.. seems positive, but I'm being inconsiderate I guess.}

But actually, the thought of people taking amphetamine like stimulants to boost their work out is like asking for heart problems..

[OpaqueMind]

How is this a problem?(half-joking) Wouldn't mind if a lot of that scene just disappeared...oops haha what did I just say?_{survival of the fittest, in this case mentally, hahah.. seems positive, but I'm being inconsiderate I guess.}

But actually, the thought of people taking amphetamine like stimulants to boost their work out is like asking for heart problems..

Hahahha you got a point there Least someone's keeping the darwinian perspective alive!

Yeah I thought that too, isn't stimulation+exercise a ridiculously bad combo? Well I guess it's marketed at bodybuilders and they don't really exert enough continuous energy to put a massive strain on the heart...

[golden1]

I've always heard its pretty bad(not to mention that heat makes amphetamines and probably these phenethylamines more neurotoxic), but probably more so for endurance/aerobic exercise like you said. Then again it's really fun biking on amphetamine or caffiene+piracetam... or both hahahah.. but I guess I'm fully aware I'm taking a strong stimulant, where as they may not think of any implications.

I'm wondering if someone found a plant that was used before whatever date the FDA set with the grandfathering in thing, that contained say a recreational drug analog(I know the analog act is vague, but lets say it differs enough in structure that it isn't obviously an analog(like Methoxetamine compared to ketamine, differing by more than one carbon or group,, etc) and that its a psychedelic, say a semi-distant mescaline analog that was never found in some cactus that was used before in supplements for other reasons) would a company be allowed to sell it as a Mind Opener or anything since it's pretty much the same situation as here?

Would they be able to sell it as a recreational supplement? lol? Just seemed interesting how many other loopholes there could be.. lol.

[Junk Master]

I think it would be quite interesting mixed with soda water and vodka. A super Red Bull and Vodka.

[FrankMH]

I think it would be quite interesting mixed with soda water and vodka. A super Red Bull and Vodka.

Could be just me, but I feel pretty rough and nauseous the day after I take Craze with alcohol. I don't usually get that the day after drinking alcohol by itself. The mix feels great at the time, though.

[OpaqueMind]

I gotta say I don't like the feeling I get from this...

I mean, I like the feeling... but I got a bad feeling about this...

In all honesty this thread should NOT be in the nootropics section. It shouldn't even exist on ImmInst!

I request deletion to stop anyone else from getting caught up in the hype without realising what this stuff actually is.

[OpaqueMind]

Warning to readers; this is not a nootropic, do not treat it like one. One of the key factors in something being a nootropic is safety. As this contains several unresearched amphetamine analogues and most probably an MAO inhibitor of some kind I think it's safe to assume that this is in all probability neurotoxic and shouldn't be touched by anyone who cares about the long-term health of their brain.

[Junk Master]

It's most definitely a nootropic, and an effective one. Just as amphetamines are. It's safety is an entirely different story. But could it be as risky as injecting Cerebrolysin, or C60 fullerenes?

The posters here are on the cutting edge of nootropics and this is the sort of dialogue this forum needs more of; including, of course, your warning above!

[OpaqueMind]

An exert from wikipedia on the difference between cognitive enhancers and nootropics -
'Cognitive enhancers are drugs, supplements, nutraceuticals, and functional foods that enhance concentration and memory.^[5][6] Nootropics are cognitive enhancers that are neuroprotective or extremely nontoxic. Nootropics are by definition cognitive enhancers, but a cognitive enhancer is not necessarily a nootropic.'

This is the generally held view and I don't think by any means that we can class DS Craze as a nootropic, although no doubt it is a temporary cognitive enhancer. I think most people on these boards are looking for long-term solutions, not just quick-fixes that lead to potential detriment further down the road. Sure they may have their uses (exams for example) but as study aids their purpose is really self-defeating for several reasons.

I disagree that this is the cutting edge of nootropics. By extrapolation if I smoked a pound of meth and could then intuitively grasp the nature of quantum mechanics I would be pushing the boundaries of nootropics, even though I would most likely wake up tomorrow with severe brain-damage.

Edited by OpaqueMind, 19 July 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[golden1]

I believe safety would logically be concluded to be important to anyone taking a nootropic... The only problem I have with it is that it is proprietary bullshit sold off without research even though it contains potent CNS active chemicals, theyre trying to make money and honestly I would morally object to doing the same as them in a split second. It's careless and wreckless... I don't think that is disputable. If it was one chemical or two, alright, but its not... its a bunch of chemicals we have and they probably have very little idea of any possible negative effects of.

It's interesting though, must be pretty enjoyable(see: addicting) in order for all these people to jump up and down defending a companies mix of stimulants and pressors and who knows what. I lol'd at their picture explaining how it works too... talk about dumbed down to the point of not having any information at all...lol.. Sorry I just think if you're going to be on a nootropic board why take potential neurotoxins and potentially dangerous combinations of chemicals that you have barely any research on or even as to how it WORKS? And people just shrug off the horrible negative effects when they get them... chest aches... arm aches? Reports of high BP. Yeah this is a great money maker product for someone, while they take advantage of careless people and those less versed in the stupidity of taking a mix of several cns stimulant analogs.

Anyway, enjoy the craze.

[zeropoint]

I got insomnia from the Craze, but I get insomnia easily anyway, but it seems Craze lasts longer than I thought as I took it in the morning. This with my usual 400mg. caffiene daily total. (approx.4 cups coffee)

I think this would go good with a luteolin+forskolin+tyrosine stack possibly.

Edited by zeropoint, 22 July 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[Cephalon]

Hi Zeropoint, yes insomnia appears to be heavy with Craze. Yesterday I fell asleep 7am, though I had a pretty good workout this day which would normaly put me asleep really quick. Don't want to start a downer habit just because of this. On the other hand Cannabis cancels out all sideeffects I get from Craze, being loss of appetite and insomnia. Kratom does not go well with Craze at all. I'd prefer Cannabis over Gabaerics. Hopefully I will find something else. Best would be" using it in the morning, but that's not an option for me unfortunatelly.

[Cephalon]

There is literally nothing wrong with 5ht2a receptor activation, BTW, which I'm guessing yyou know, but that was the guys whole point of how it was bad(eventhough theresno proof at all except a misintrerpreted study that it is a 5ht2a agonist in the first place lawl). That is how psychedelics work and he is referencing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25I-NBOMe and such with the study he used to say the n-benzl-phenethylamine is active at 5ht2a when it is quite different in structure than those(which are highly potent 5ht2a agonists). Normal people don't suicide from doing too many psychedelics or I would be dead for sure, having had 5ht2a agonism constantly for over a week more than once, hahah.

And I'm glad it works for you.. I don't call people out for taking risks, I just ask some questions and state my opinion because I know I've done worse myself than taken craze... hahhahah

Also you brought n-benzyl-phenethylamine up, I don't body build or know who works for what company, so I took your post as it was and read the threads, ha, my bad.

Hey golden1
Your input is always appreciated!
Didn't want to be rude or something. I think both our points are legit.
Both RC's and unknown BB supps have it pros and both have too many cons
Which doesn't stop us from using them. Actually I'm a fan of both and I know it's not a smart thing to do.
Yeah the bodybuilding industry is pretty bad company, you need to take every claim with a grain of salt, or two...

[Cephalon]

Warning to readers; this is not a nootropic, do not treat it like one. One of the key factors in something being a nootropic is safety. As this contains several unresearched amphetamine analogues and most probably an MAO inhibitor of some kind I think it's safe to assume that this is in all probability neurotoxic and shouldn't be touched by anyone who cares about the long-term health of their brain.

Think you are right though this is just a question of definitions. Ok let's not call it Nootropic (which by definition would only be 2-3 supps discussed here on longecity) but cognitive enhancer.
Everyone on board should be able to tell the difference. The topic shouldn't call it nootropic that's true.

[zeropoint]

According to a recent documentary program on ADD, where I'm from it's a learning channel station(11), amphetamines and related drugs have a stigma and bias against them more political and moral based, rather than pharmacologically based. Amphetamines and related drugs are really very safe compared to even aspirin.I tried 10mg. Adderall for the first time recently and post depression was worse from it than from the Craze not to mention peripheral vasoconstriction was worse from Adderal(and this from only 10mg.)

Edited by zeropoint, 22 July 2012 - 09:44 PM.

[Cephalon]

According to a recent documentary program on ADD, where I'm from it's a learning channel station(11), amphetamines and related drugs have a stigma and bias against them more political and moral based, rather than pharmacologically based. Amphetamines and related drugs are really very safe compared to even aspirin.I tried 10mg. Adderall for the first time recently and post depression was worse from it than from the Craze not to mention peripheral vasoconstriction was worse from Adderal(and this from only 10mg.)

Yes they are stigmatized for sure. It's anoying not be able to get a neutral conversation on amphetamines going. People prefer to take crazy stuff instead of staying with well known alternatives. But amphetamines do have there risks.
I can confirm the same for Craze! No crash yet, in about 5 occasions using it.
It's a great supplement - though I do not get the same clearity from it I used to get.
I feel ( and look!) alitle spaced out - as someone would look and feel after a drug bindge.
But once in the gym the focus is there stronger and better then ever before. Craze synergizes soo well with heavy weights, it's amazing. I understand it's not a wise thing to do ( I use Craze apart of cardio sessions just to make sure) but it feeos just great after working out (2-3 hours) I have 3-4 hours of enhanced focus and no crash after that at all - yesterday I felt really good after the effects worn off.

[fql]

I've been taking Craze (before being popular) since it has been out. I'm in good health although I have a poor diet. Craze has been the only supplement which has given me some focus at the gym. Better than Modalert for sure.

Edited by juryben, 23 July 2012 - 12:53 AM.

[fql]

I think it would be quite interesting mixed with soda water and vodka. A super Red Bull and Vodka.

Could be just me, but I feel pretty rough and nauseous the day after I take Craze with alcohol. I don't usually get that the day after drinking alcohol by itself. The mix feels great at the time, though.

Fantastic way to OD and blackout.

[Animal]

Does anyone remember the pre-workout/slimming product known as 'Slim Xtreme', which was popular back in 2009/2010, but has now been banned?

Well I haven't tried the 'Craze' for comparison, but I can say that Slim Xtreme was incredibly effective at enhancing energy, mood and motivation. Each pill lasted for at least 12 hours, solidly. Apparently Slim Xtreme contained Sibutramine (a cardiotoxic SNRI), along with methamphetamine like compounds, which is why it was banned. I can certainly believe these claims, judging from my experiences with it.

My point is that anyone taking this Craze should be very cautious when making assumptions about the safety of it's ingredients. Supplement companies (especially in the body-building industry) can and will put semi-illicit substances in their products, without regard for consumer safety; just to make a profit.

Edited by Animal, 23 July 2012 - 08:30 PM.

[Cephalon]

Somehow I'm afraid that history repeats - in a few years we might say: do you remember this Craze stuff? That was some crazy shit - they found out it contained substance x ( or better substance x was always on the label). What substance x? You are kidding, you mean that stuff which now is a prescription slimming pill and a sheduled drug in most countries? Yeah right Substance X - we could buy it OTC back in the days, just as our parents bought LSD and our grandparents Heroin over the counter. Wow that's so awesome...
Ok sorry for this little episode, but I'm sure Substance x ( if it turns out to be a single ingredient) will be a big thing then, just as Sibutramine. The only difference is, that there are ni reported deaths associated with Craze, while there were a couple linked to Sibutriamine, right?