56 replies to this topic

[ironfistx]

Key point is that bodybuilders might be getting an insane amount of omega-6 in their diet. I used to eat 200g peanut butter a day and then stuff my face with all sorts of other omega-6 rich goodies, you can imagine how that felt.

That's a good point. I used to eat at lot of pizza and fast food and stuff, but in the last year or so have tried to really clean up my diet.

Isn't it the ratio of omega 6 to omega 3 that is important? So if you're eating healthier to begin with, you might need less fish oil, right?

[niner]

Here is another study showing that taking CoQ10 could be beneficial for someone taking fish oil supplements. Keep in mind that most studies that demonstrated problems with PUFA's were done on rodents.
" Effect of lifelong coenzyme Q10 supplementation on age-related oxidative stress and mitochondrial function in liver and skeletal muscle of rats fed on a polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA)-rich diet."
Conclusion :
"These findings provide mechanisms to explain the effect of CoQ(10) in extending the life span of animals fed
a PUFA-rich diet."
http://www.mendeley....l-function-liv/

Here s a study done on humans that shows 150mg of ubiquinone increases SOD, and decreases CRP ( increases an endogenous antioxidant , and decreases systemic inflammation).
http://www.mendeley....y-markers-high-

Statin users should also supplement with CoQ10.

These are some good points. Anyone on a PUFA-rich diet ought to benefit from a lipophilic antioxidant. Those of us who are taking c60 are probably covered there. The human study was CAD patients, and they clearly benefited. I wonder if this had to do with a high level of Statin usage? I'm glad you mentioned the Statin issue, since I forgot to. I'm less certain that Q10 is needed for healthy people who have good diets unless they are getting on in the years. Do you know of any studies in healthy people or healthy animals on decent diets?

[BDon]

I actually bodybuild believe it or not I still find it hard to get much Omega-3 naturally.. It's quite expensive to eat a nice fatty-fish daily so supplementation helps. I'm more interested in the omega-3 studies that had helped patients with CFS (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) and Depression. I believe it was stated that 9,000mg EPA+DHA was needed to help patients with CFS and Depression?

9g Omega-3.

[ironfistx]

9,000mg of EPA and DHA total or 9,000mg of each?

In a small bottle of Vitamin Shoppe liquid fish oil, there is a total of 24,000mg of EPA and 15,000mg DHA.

[alecnevsky]

Here is another study showing that taking CoQ10 could be beneficial for someone taking fish oil supplements. Keep in mind that most studies that demonstrated problems with PUFA's were done on rodents.
" Effect of lifelong coenzyme Q10 supplementation on age-related oxidative stress and mitochondrial function in liver and skeletal muscle of rats fed on a polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA)-rich diet."
Conclusion :
"These findings provide mechanisms to explain the effect of CoQ(10) in extending the life span of animals fed
a PUFA-rich diet."
http://www.mendeley....l-function-liv/

Here s a study done on humans that shows 150mg of ubiquinone increases SOD, and decreases CRP ( increases an endogenous antioxidant , and decreases systemic inflammation).
http://www.mendeley....y-markers-high-

Statin users should also supplement with CoQ10.

These are some good points. Anyone on a PUFA-rich diet ought to benefit from a lipophilic antioxidant. Those of us who are taking c60 are probably covered there. The human study was CAD patients, and they clearly benefited. I wonder if this had to do with a high level of Statin usage? I'm glad you mentioned the Statin issue, since I forgot to. I'm less certain that Q10 is needed for healthy people who have good diets unless they are getting on in the years. Do you know of any studies in healthy people or healthy animals on decent diets?

Great thread. I'm a student in my 20s and (apparently) I've been mega-dosing way too much fish oil. I've been taking 3200mg Omega 3 (1600mg EPA : 1200mg DHA + 400mg "other Omega 3s") every day for like 2 years to get through college in reasonable shape. I wonder whether I should continue taking this much (comes out to [4] 1250mg gels or 5000mg fish oil total per day, omega 3s included) by adding Coq10 in ubiquinone form or just reduce the dose to like 2000mg Omega 3 per day. With the former I could overdose my EPA/DHA by equivalent amount of coq10s oxidation suppression. Does anyone know the rate of lipid-peroxidation suppression of Coq10? And, is there a daily recommended amount of omega 3s given the peroxidation ?

Edit: clarified dosage for user below.

Edited by alecnevsky, 28 January 2013 - 12:50 AM.

[ironfistx]

Great thread. I'm a student in my 20s and (apparently) I've been mega-dosing way too much fish oil. I've been taking 3200mg Omega 3 ( 1600 EPA : 1200 DHA + 400mg "other Omega 3s") every day for like 2 years to get through college in reasonable shape. I wonder whether I should continue taking this much (5000mg total per day) of fish oil by adding Coq10 in ubiquinone form or just reduce the dose to like 2000mg Omega 3 per day. With the former I could overdose my EPA/DHA by equivalent amount of coq10s oxidation suppression. Does anyone know the rate of lipid-peroxidation suppression of Coq10? And, is there a daily recommended amount of omega 3s given the peroxidation ?

Not sure I follow your math. You said 3,200mg Omega 3, made up of 1,600mg EPA and 1,200mg DHA and 400 other Omega 3s.

Then you said you wonder if you should keep taking your 5,000mg fish oil per day. But you're only taking 3,200mg.

Edited by ironfistx, 28 January 2013 - 12:30 AM.

[Kevnzworld]

Great thread. I'm a student in my 20s and (apparently) I've been mega-dosing way too much fish oil. I've been taking 3200mg Omega 3 ( 1600 EPA : 1200 DHA + 400mg "other Omega 3s") every day for like 2 years to get through college in reasonable shape. I wonder whether I should continue taking this much (5000mg total per day) of fish oil by adding Coq10 in ubiquinone form or just reduce the dose to like 2000mg Omega 3 per day. With the former I could overdose my EPA/DHA by equivalent amount of coq10s oxidation suppression. Does anyone know the rate of lipid-peroxidation suppression of Coq10? And, is there a daily recommended amount of omega 3s given the peroxidation ?

Not sure I follow your math. You said 3,200mg Omega 3, made up of 1,600mg EPA and 1,200mg DHA and 400 other Omega 3s.

Then you said you wonder if you should keep taking your 5,000mg fish oil per day. But you're only taking 3,200mg.

Most omega 3 fish oil products contain 50-60% EPA /DHA .

[renfr]

Megadose fish oil has great skin benefits but its dopamonergic activity is too strong, it gives me extreme insomnia.

[BDon]

I see. Would mega-dosing help with mood? i know mood is 9grams. but imagine if higher?

MSM seems to be good for skin

[renfr]

I took something between 10-15g max, it helps a lot with energy levels and I guess the same for mood but the insomnia is horrible though it could be transient as fish oil, first the time it downregulates and second it has decreased my hunger a lot, I guess this could ve good for weight loss but reduced food intake upregulates dopamine hence the insomnia.
Bacopa blunts a bit this effect which supports the fact that fish oil has increased dopamine but the effect is too strong to be inhibited efficiently, been two days without taking fish oil.
I wonder if I should keep taking it, Ifind it not normal to sleep 4 hours and have high energy levels but at the same time there are people who can sleep only that and feel alright just to know a few Thatcher, Churchill, ...

just to name a few

Start with a low dose if you plan MSM+fish oil because these two can cause an herxheimer reaction which is not funny at all

Fish oil is really a radical supplement, 3000mg a day for months did nothing in particular and now 10-15g in 2 days and full blown effects start to manifest

[alecnevsky]

I took something between 10-15g max, it helps a lot with energy levels and I guess the same for mood but the insomnia is horrible though it could be transient as fish oil, first the time it downregulates and second it has decreased my hunger a lot, I guess this could ve good for weight loss but reduced food intake upregulates dopamine hence the insomnia.
Bacopa blunts a bit this effect which supports the fact that fish oil has increased dopamine but the effect is too strong to be inhibited efficiently, been two days without taking fish oil.
I wonder if I should keep taking it, Ifind it not normal to sleep 4 hours and have high energy levels but at the same time there are people who can sleep only that and feel alright just to know a few Thatcher, Churchill, ...

just to name a few

Start with a low dose if you plan MSM+fish oil because these two can cause an herxheimer reaction which is not funny at all

Fish oil is really a radical supplement, 3000mg a day for months did nothing in particular and now 10-15g in 2 days and full blown effects start to manifest

Interesting. So you're megadosing 15gs and seeing dopaminergic effects? I wonder if this has any relevance to ketogenic metabolism.

[Kevnzworld]

I am not a fan of mega dosing of most things, fish oil ( a PUFA ), is one of them. PUFA 's oxidize easily, leading to lipid peroxidation. This is one of the reasons that some studies show reduced longevity in fish oil supplemented mice.
" Survival decreased earlier in the fish oil group than in the other groups (as seen in the survival curve). The results suggest that greater the degree of unsaturation of dietary fatty acids, greater is the tendency for accelerated senescence."
http://biomedgeronto...64A/6/646.short
If one is to supplement with fish oil, and I do , 2000mg a day, it should have a tocopherol form of natural vitamin E in it. Also , to reduce lipid peroxidation , supplement with additional gamma E, astaxanthin and CoQ10.
" Coenzyme Q10 Protects From Aging-Related Oxidative Stress and Improves Mitochondrial Function in Heart of Rats Fed a Polyunsaturated Fatty Acid (PUFA)-Rich Diet "
http://biomedgeronto.../60/8/970.short
For the prevention of heart disease, supplementing with both CoQ10 and fish oil is better than fish oil alone.
" Treatment with fish oil plus coenzyme Q10 seemed to provide additional beneficial effects to those obtained with fish oil alone, by reducing the rise of cardiac enzymes during AMI as well as the level of pro-inflammatory markers of risk"
http://eurheartjsupp...ppl_D/D62.short

Edited by Kevnzworld, 05 April 2013 - 12:48 PM.

[renfr]

Vitamin E is needed when taking fish oil in any case as fish oil seems to use up vitamin E reserves.

Researcher Mohsen Meydani from Tufts University published findings in "The Journal of Nutrition" in 1991 that showed women who took fish oils each day have significantly lower levels of vitamin E in the blood. Six grams of fish oil were taken each day over a three-month period, and the longer the women took the fish oils, the stronger the reduction in vitamin E.

I am not sure if it is due to any kind of oxidative process or is it just because fish oil is moving vitamin E to the skin.

[dogshitwebsite]

The vitamin E is added to prevent the oil going rancid, well thats at least what my packaging says.
I'm currently on "just" 6g a day, not sure if its helping on this but i'm also eating 2-3g vitamin C which has antioxidant properties.
I've been on 2-3g of fish oil for almost a year and it has helped a bit, but since I upped my dose a week ago, I've been feeling alot better, no more drying eyes and skin, also this great feeling of energy
happyy!

[ironfistx]

Since I stopped taking fish oil I have more energy and feel better.

Here was my thread about fish oil making me sleepy

[dogshitwebsite]

As mentioned couple times in your thread, it's probably not just the fish oil making you tired, its the lack of fat soluble antioxidants, have you even read your thread??

[alecnevsky]

As mentioned couple times in your thread, it's probably not just the fish oil making you tired, its the lack of fat soluble antioxidants, have you even read your thread??

Yeah many people argue that Inuits lifespans are short, Inuits eat fish therefore too much fish oil is bad for you. I am wondering whether you could thwart lipid peroxidation and still render the benefits from mega-dosing fish oil. I used to take like 5gs with like 3000 of it being DHA+EPA but now I am staying on "safe side." I really doubt green tea, vit c and b vitamins would take care of it if I were to take like 10gs.

I wonder if 5000ui D3 every other day could allow for megadose in ranges of 5-10g EPA/DHA.

Edited by alecnevsky, 09 April 2013 - 05:28 AM.

[dogshitwebsite]

Astaxanthin has been recommended many times.

I wasn't aware of D3 having such functions.. any sources for that? if it really could allow megadoses, I would be happy as i'm already taking it 2000ui every day.
Also the quote about inuits short life, well that probably has other reasons too than fish oil, also I somehow don't see them popping antioxidant pills

[alecnevsky]

I don't have any at the moment. But considering it's a fat soluble antioxidant (via very superficial google search) I just assumed that it would help.

[dogshitwebsite]

I'm quite embarrassed to admit, I didn't know that D vitamin is antioxidant... So yes it should help, also seems like C vitamin is good at keeping fatty acids from oxidizing
Also, now my daily dosage of fish oil is 10g, all that from capsules and occasionally salmon and mackerel.
The first day on this dose I had stomach pain, but already on second day a lot less issues.
The fish oil might not be the only culprit for the pain, my current source of C vitamin is BAD, fizzy tab with lemon taste and contains Aspartame and some other crap, however its the only one I could afford for the 1g/each range, going to replace it soon with pure Ascorbic Acid.

[renfr]

Don't take ascorbic acid, it's poorly absorbable, destroys your bowels and increases uric acid.
This is even more true for high doses.
Use sodium ascorbate which doesn't cause all these symptoms and is also more absorbable.

[dogshitwebsite]

Oh, thanks a lot for that info!
:( its so expensive(3x) compared to ascorbic acid.. also only couple sellers.. still, best to get the best isn't it.
but wikipedia says that it can cause "Severe allergic reactions include rash; itching; difficult breathing; hives; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue; bone pain; muscle weakness; severe or persistent diarrhea; mental or mood changes.
While ascorbic acid "only" states that it causes diarrhea in higher doses.
actually it seems like(not a lot of info on wiki) calcium acscorbate would be the best, the price is a bit high and there is like one seller on ebay who sells it bulk and thats in USA so its a mess, the postage costs double the products price :(

[renfr]

wikipedia is just quoting the symptoms of a typical allergic reaction, allergy to vitamin C is very rare and ascorbic acid would also have the same effects.
For an healthy subject with no allergy sodium ascorbate is the most cost effective and safe form of vitamin C.
Calcium ascorbate should only be taken for low doses and shouldn't be stacked with calcium.
Calcium requirements are lower than sodium hence it's better to take sodium ascorbate.
1 gram calcium ascorbate has 110mg calcium for a RDA of 600mg
1 gram sodium ascorbate has 112mg sodium for a RDA of 2400mg.

Sodium ascorbate is not that costful, check that : http://m.iherb.com/N...-oz-454-g/10178

half a pound for 15 bucks, even if you take 10g a day it will last for 45 days, that's the one I use.

[dogshitwebsite]

Ok, thanks, I will probably end up buying that one but here is the last other possible one: http://www.letstalkh...l-vitamin-c.htm seems expensive but effective, 93% absorption!

[knightly]

Potency can be determined by concentrate levels, and perhaps form (ethyl ester vs triglyceride). A capsule and liquid should absorb the same amount, if using the same form and concentrate. Although the liquid may oxidize a bit faster, as it doesn't have capsule protecting it -- refrigerate to be safe, whatever type is used.

 

Well it depends.

Sure you can get special fish oil caps that uses certain heat and all that, but if it was the same quality regarding purity and all that you would get a better deal with the fish oil than the caps.

[nameless]

Well it depends.
Sure you can get special fish oil caps that uses certain heat and all that, but if it was the same quality regarding purity and all that you would get a better deal with the fish oil than the caps.

Yep, but also more oxidation. Each time you open the bottle, the oil will be exposed.

[LawrenceHarasim]

Great Thread I was wondering why higher doses of calcium/vit C ....called ester C is bad? I do not want to bring in any sodium into my diet...if you would please explain why its not a good idea

 

 

Thank you 

 

Lawrence