28 replies to this topic

[Orajel]

Anyone have any idea if taking large quantaties of DHEA in conjunction with an aromatase inhibitor would increase levels of testosterone significantly?

My understanding is that DHEA is generally useless to supplement unless you are deficient in it because it converts readily to androgens and estrogens. I'm not sure if DHEA aromatizes, but I assume it does. Any ideas?

If it did, then we would have a relatively safe and non-toxic substitute for oral steroids, and it would be much more cost effective than a SARM.

[Junk Master]

Been talked about for years, but doesn't really work.

However, a mix of DHEA, Pregnenolone, and an aromatase inhibitor might be interesting.

I was using a transdermal DHEA/Pregnenolone patch from Ageforce (I'm over 40), and blew up like a mild cycle. I had to stop because I felt I was holding a little too much water and I didn't want the weight gain. I was also using 3 grams of Reservatrol at the time and I suspect it's anti-estrogenic effects had something to do with the effect.

BTW-- Have you tried SARMS?

[Orajel]

shoot well it was worth a shot. DHEA just refuses to be helpful for people my age (unless I'm using it as a PCT aid). Yes, I have tried one SARM, ostarine. It was good for putting on a few pounds of muscle, but the lack of androgenic side effects was a let down. It's also pretty expensive. Seems like SARMs are the best steroid alternative around right now.

[Junk Master]

I'm curious if you think a low dose of ostarine would help recovery from long runs during marathon training? I hear you on the expensive part. Might as well just try and find a decent Chinese source for Anavar powder. Do the Var/Creatine thing.

[Junk Master]

I'd guess DHEA is pretty much a dead end unless it's used during PCT, or by geezers like me. The transdermal patches with preg were pretty noticable but I doubt you'd feel anything.

[Orajel]

Are those patches OTC? haven't heard of them. Ostarine is expensive, but from everything I've read and from my personal experience, it's essentially safe and free of noticeable side effects. Theoretically, you could run a 160$ bottle for 3 months at a low dose and achieve the same effects as higher doses, but I haven't tried it.

Ostarine helps with muscle recovery, but it isn't the kind of thing I would consider "dramatic", it would take time. If you had already built it up in your system, and trained while taking it, you would recover faster than if you weren't taking it. Same as with steroids. Ostarine is essentially a weak steroid without the androgenic side effects. I dono about anavar, never taken it, but I'm guessing it's stronger than ostarine. I'm guessing it has some steroid-related side effects that ostarine doesn't have.

Edited by Orajel, 28 April 2012 - 04:27 AM.

[kevinseven11]

Some DHEA metabolites will metabolize into DHT and dont aromatize. search Androhard. High dose DHT is known for hormone shut down though so id watch out and only use if truly deficient.

[Orajel]

It seems like people believe dhea is useless If you're under 40, so why is it banned by the world anti doping agency?

[Junk Master]

Works in large doses for women-- probably that small DHT metabolization k7 mentioned above.

[Godot]

I don't see any reason why an aromatase inhibitor like androstenetrione taken along with DHEA or pregnenolone wouldn't increase testosterone. It should.

[Junk Master]

The AgeForce patches are OTC. http://www.ageforce.com/

The pregnenolone/DHEA combo is far more potent IMO that just DHEA.

Thing is, it's not going to have the same sort of effect if you are a make under 40 as exogenous Test.

[hullcrush]

AIs will raise T alone. DHEA will raise T alone, but strongly prefer E. The sample selection for the studies showing no T increase are very poorly designed, the studies have never been properly reviewed. We're talking 500 mgs / day for results though, which has been shown in AIDS patients to be a safe dose.

Edited by hullcrush, 06 May 2012 - 09:00 PM.

[Junk Master]

So, theoretically 500mg DHEA a day plus an anti-estrogen could be effective?

Since DHEA is dirt cheap, that's an interesting option.

500mg DHEA plus 3g Resveratrol per day?

What anti-estrogens do you guys prefer, and are there any legit OTC/Supps?

[Orajel]

So, theoretically 500mg DHEA a day plus an anti-estrogen could be effective?

Since DHEA is dirt cheap, that's an interesting option.

500mg DHEA plus 3g Resveratrol per day?

What anti-estrogens do you guys prefer, and are there any legit OTC/Supps?

ATD and formestane are good, 7,8 benzoflavone is a weak AI.

theres a product called PCT revolution (the white one) which contains a couple OTC aromatase inhibitors, you can get it online but I don't think they still make it.

[Godot]

I'm pretty sure androstenetrione is still available OTC in the US
http://en.wikipedia....ndrostenetrione

[nowayout]

If you are into life extension, I wouldn't recommend using androstenetrione (or extra DHEA, for that matter). You would be more likely to shorten your life.

[Orajel]

I'm more into life enhancement than life extension

[nowayout]

Either way, androstenetrione won't enhance your life either. It is pretty much useless for performance enhancement or muscle building. There is a study somewhere showing this.

Likewise for DHEA - several studies have shown it to be useless for increasing muscle mass in young men who do resistance training.

Edited by viveutvivas, 14 May 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[lourdaud]

Either way, androstenetrione won't enhance your life either. It is pretty much useless for performance enhancement or muscle building. There is a study somewhere showing this.

Likewise for DHEA - several studies have shown it to be useless for increasing muscle mass in young men who do resistance training.

But, in that case, how would it affect longevity if it doesn't "do" anything??

And DHEA, doesn't it increase muscle mass if you are DHEA insufficient??

[nowayout]

Either way, androstenetrione won't enhance your life either. It is pretty much useless for performance enhancement or muscle building. There is a study somewhere showing this.

Likewise for DHEA - several studies have shown it to be useless for increasing muscle mass in young men who do resistance training.

But, in that case, how would it affect longevity if it doesn't "do" anything??

And DHEA, doesn't it increase muscle mass if you are DHEA insufficient??

I didn't say androstenetrione doesn't do anything. I just said it doesn't do anything beneficial, as best we know.

As for the OP, he is young and very unlikely to have insufficient DHEA. Even for older men with low DHEA, Trials have shown no significant effect of DHEA on body composition or muscle mass. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17050889

[Kevnzworld]

Dhea has a large body of peer reviewed evidence of benefit. It never raised my testosterone levels in a meaningful way however. I began using compounded transdermal creams to augment my hormone levels beginning about 5 years ago, given that they were sagging. My Dhea, testosterone, progesterone and estradiol levels though fluctuating remain in a normal range now. I test my blood twice a year both thru my doctor and life extension.
The problem with blood testing is that if you apply the creams in the evening, ( I do it twice daily ), but not in the morning....the fasting morning blood test will show lower values. I've tried taking the blood tests at varying times, and adjusting dosing in an attempt to get a more accurate, normalized read.
I do take Chrysin as an aromatase inhibitor, and it brought my estradiol levels down from the mid 30's to under 30. I also take cruciferous vegetable extracts, dim , IC3 to mitigate harmful estrogen metabolites...

Edited by Kevnzworld, 21 May 2012 - 06:11 AM.

[nowayout]

Most of the published evidence of supposed benefit of DHEA supplementation doesn't hold up under closer scrutiny, and there is serious evidence that it is in fact not really significantly beneficial at all. In any case, none of it claims any benefit at all in young men who are not deficient (whatever that means).

The same goes for chrysin, DIM, I3C, and the supposedly harmful estrogen metabolites. For chrysin there is actually no reliable evidence that it does anything in vivo when taken orally, and some evidence to the effect that it is at best useless. As for the rest, there are lots of small studies that really don't amount to anything much upon closer scrutiny. It's all more myth than science, really.

Also, the error bars in commercial hormone tests (especially estradiol) are quite large, so there is no significant difference between "mid 30s" and under 30, if by the latter you mean, say, 28.

Edited by viveutvivas, 21 May 2012 - 11:33 AM.

[Kevnzworld]

I have read a lot of articles and research relating to DHEA supplementation and it's benefits for older men. I do not have any experience with using it as a steroid when I was younger. I began using it when my levels dropped to 50. Now I am in the 200 range.
Viveutivivas wrote that a 20% drop in my estradiol levels to a level that is considered optimal is of no significance. I disagree.
I have read enough about natural aromatase inhibitors to justify trying them before going Pharma ( Anastrozole). Chrysin and zinc successfully moderated my Estradiol levels as my testosterone and DHEA levels rose. I believe that there is clear evidence that bio identical hormone replacement therapy is beneficial for men in andropause if properly prescribed, used and monitored .

[smithx]

I have been taking 50mg dhea with two LEF supermiraforte capsules in the morning. Since that formula contains chrysin, it qualifies for this discussion.

I have not had my hormone levels retested yet, but subjectively it seems to be raising my testosterone, as evidenced through obvious physiological evidence I would rather not discuss .

Just one data point...

[kron3]

Hello,

You mentioned that you had weight gain on combination of dhea/pregnenolone. I thought that one woudl likely to lose weight when takes dhea products. I also take dhea in creme form and noticed some weight gain and am trying to deternine if it is dhea related? Could you please elaborate why you think weight gain was due to dhea/pregnenolone intake?

Thanks a lot,

Been talked about for years, but doesn't really work.

However, a mix of DHEA, Pregnenolone, and an aromatase inhibitor might be interesting.

I was using a transdermal DHEA/Pregnenolone patch from Ageforce (I'm over 40), and blew up like a mild cycle. I had to stop because I felt I was holding a little too much water and I didn't want the weight gain. I was also using 3 grams of Reservatrol at the time and I suspect it's anti-estrogenic effects had something to do with the effect.

BTW-- Have you tried SARMS?

[nowayout]

I have been taking 50mg dhea with two LEF supermiraforte capsules in the morning. Since that formula contains chrysin, it qualifies for this discussion.

I have not had my hormone levels retested yet, but subjectively it seems to be raising my testosterone, as evidenced through obvious physiological evidence I would rather not discuss .

Just one data point...

Chrysin has been shwn to be ineffective when taken orally. You should rather save your money.

[Kevnzworld]

Here is an interesting article on the DHEA debate

http://www.lef.org/m...The DHEA debate

[kai2]

I have been taking 50mg dhea with two LEF supermiraforte capsules in the morning. Since that formula contains chrysin, it qualifies for this discussion.

I have not had my hormone levels retested yet, but subjectively it seems to be raising my testosterone, as evidenced through obvious physiological evidence I would rather not discuss .

Just one data point...

Chrysin has been shwn to be ineffective when taken orally. You should rather save your money.

Is there any reason to be believe that Chrysin taken transdermally would not have the desired effect?

[tommix]

THE GLOBAL, impossible to beat nature's rule - you increase testosterone via any external supplementation - brains will shutdown T production. There is only one way to have high amount of T (which is bad by the way if you older) - is somehow overwrite the amount which brains sees as normal. Only this way. You have testosterone as much as you need. brain controls it.

If you dont care -just take Clomifene and aromatase inhibitor. this is the light way of doing it without steroids.