94 replies to this topic

[Cephalon]

Creatine helps boost brain ATP stores which has nootropic effects:

Improves working memory and Increases fluid intelligence
Prevents cognitive decline and aids cognitive function in the elderly
http://www.ncbi.nlm....?tool=pmcentrez

I take 2g a day, but I would take more if I was vegan.

Being a vegetarian I also supplement with 2.5 g Creatine a day. I did not include it in my stack since it's supposed to be an all purpose stack. General health supplements I take such as Lycopene are excluded for this reason as well. A veggie booster should definitely contain Creatine, Beta Alanine, B12 and Taurine to name a few.

[Cephalon]

Hey, have any of you guys ever tried Kanna it contains the active chemical called Mesembrine. Mesembrine is a potent PDE4 inhibitor and a serotonin reuptake inhibitor. That might be what you guys are looking for. I think maybe we should investigate

Quercetin is already even a little too strong of a PDE4 inhibitor as it is and Kanna is even stronger (IC50 < 1ug) (http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21798331) . I would be very careful with adding these to the stack for PDE4 inhibition purposes.

Yeah Kanna has quite strong PDE4 I qualities. I ordered a gram once but gave it away. It's supposed to be a strong anti depressant. I don't like Serotonin uptake inhibitors. I selfmedicated with Prozac once - bad idea, had a lot sideeffects. When I read Kanna had such qualities I stepped back. Later I found out Dopamine is a preferable target in my case. Resveratrol raises Serotonin already, doesn't it?

[gamesguru]

Is quercetin a PDE4 inhibitor, or is it the metabolites of quercetin? Is it even a PDE inhibitor, or does it raise cAMP only via a secondary or tertiary mechanism?

From http://onlinelibrary...09.00556.x/full:

he finding that quercetin also elevated coronary artery cyclic GMP content threefold, as has been reported for PDE 5 inhibitors in this vessel (Sakuma et al., 2002), raises the possibility that both compounds act by a similar mechanism. However, two observations argue against inhibition of PDE 5 as a target for quercetin. First, endothelial denudation and inhibition of soluble guanylyl cyclase by ODQ (Garthwaite et al., 1995) revealed major differences between the vasorelaxant effect of UK114542 and quercetin (see Table 2). Second, the combination of UK-114,542 and quercetin produced a greater enhancement of sodium nitroprusside-induced relaxations than UK-114,542 alone; the concentration of UK-114,542 (10 nM) used in this experiment was fivefold greater than the reported K_i value for PDE 5 (Kraus and Prast, 2002). Thus, while the precise mechanism underlying the action of quercetin on cyclic GMP-dependent relaxations has not been revealed by these studies, it does not appear to involve inhibition of PDE 5.

I couldn't confirm or falsify its action on PDE4, but this study looks fairly conclusive against it as a PDE5 inhibitor, unless I'm missing something.

Edited by dasheenster, 24 May 2012 - 02:29 PM.

[Cephalon]

Is quercetin a PDE4 inhibitor, or is it the metabolites of quercetin? Is it even a PDE inhibitor, or does it raise cAMP only via a secondary or tertiary mechanism?

From http://onlinelibrary...09.00556.x/full:

he finding that quercetin also elevated coronary artery cyclic GMP content threefold, as has been reported for PDE 5 inhibitors in this vessel (Sakuma et al., 2002), raises the possibility that both compounds act by a similar mechanism. However, two observations argue against inhibition of PDE 5 as a target for quercetin. First, endothelial denudation and inhibition of soluble guanylyl cyclase by ODQ (Garthwaite et al., 1995) revealed major differences between the vasorelaxant effect of UK114542 and quercetin (see Table 2). Second, the combination of UK-114,542 and quercetin produced a greater enhancement of sodium nitroprusside-induced relaxations than UK-114,542 alone; the concentration of UK-114,542 (10 nM) used in this experiment was fivefold greater than the reported K_i value for PDE 5 (Kraus and Prast, 2002). Thus, while the precise mechanism underlying the action of quercetin on cyclic GMP-dependent relaxations has not been revealed by these studies, it does not appear to involve inhibition of PDE 5.

I couldn't confirm or falsify its action on PDE4, but this study looks fairly conclusive against it as a PDE5 inhibitor, unless I'm missing something.

Nice find! But that doesn't implicate that Quercetin is not a PDE4 inhibitor since some PDE inhibitiors work quite selective right? Could be though that it uses a similar route as Forskolin and people having strong responses were just reporting about a Forskolin-Quercetin double punch. Interesting question.


Other question: is long term potentation dangerous in any way? Does it increase likelihood of seizures?
Would adding Calcium (sorry since reading hyperspace's thread I'm on the Ca trip) aid in CILTEP?

[Cephalon]

Please excuse my ignorance, but I'm a complete noob when it comes to neurochemistry etc.

So I just figured out, having some talk back in mind with my gf who is a med student, that basically it's all about longterm potentation. That's also the principal behind AMPA activation correct?

So this explains why some users made bad experiences with mixing the CILTEP stack with Aniracetam, which could be a stronger AMPA agonist than Piracetam - the chemically induced long term potentation just worked out too good.

This in turn makes a Racetam a must-have in our little stack.

Today I noticed great enhancement of adding Calcium to my 1200mg dose Piracetam. For the same reasons I expect Calcium supplementation to enhance the CILTEP stack.

Anyone brave willing to try 1. Noopept + Ca or even 2. Noopept + CILTEP + Ca?

[medievil]

Im on aniracetam with a stimulant; quercetin and sertraline the next addition would be forskolin so ill see wheter this stack would work with ani.

After that id like to add focusXT; l glutamic acid and try differend racetams and combo's of racetams with those wich can be damn fucking interesting.

Also D aspartic acid can potentially be very interesting in this stack.

[medievil]

http://www.frontiers...2011.00021/full

Vinpocetine is a PDE1 inhibitor; it has reserpine like effects but this is reverseble but ill research that more.

[Cephalon]

Im on aniracetam with a stimulant; quercetin and sertraline the next addition would be forskolin so ill see wheter this stack would work with ani.

After that id like to add focusXT; l glutamic acid and try differend racetams and combo of racetams with those wich can be damn fucking interesting.

Also D aspartic acid can potentially be very interesting in this stack.

Hi Medievil

Exited to hear your report! What's in Focus XT? Have you considered DS Craze? There has been quite a "craze" about it lately.


To all:

Cannabis is officially not a part of this stack anymore - though research is very promising - I just found out that the CB1 receptor mediates Long Term Depression, which is just the opposite of LTP and may negatively affect our little experiment. It will have it place as a occasional addition though.
Probably the short term impairments noticed with cannabis consumption have something to do with LTD.
In theory cannabis could serve as an antidot in case someone overdid it with CILTEP or AMPA activation.


Edit: though I wanted to keep out diet and lifestyle interventions, CR should have a great synergy with CILTEP through it's cAMP boosting effects. But let's keep this stack simple and make it everyone's choice!


Edit2: not only does dopamine receptor activation play a role in LTP but also b adrenergic activation through noradrenaline referring to Wikipedia. Maybe a NDRI? (though a herbal formula would be preferable I guess)

Edited by Cephalon, 25 May 2012 - 12:48 AM.

[Cephalon]

So this is the current version of this project. I will start using it as soon as all products arrived.
I would like to replace the DMAA through something safer. Do I have to be concerned about an DI of 20mg?
Once complete I will work my way through the stack step by step.
I will start with the CILTEP Stack 2.0 unit in the morning.
If I tolerate this well I will add Calcium and see if there any benefits/ sideeffects.
Then I will add a dose of the CDP Focus Blend in the midday.
If this goes well I would start adding a racetam, Piracetam most likely.
After using the stack for a few days and being still alive I can consider theNeurobolic Growth System as a last part in the pm.


CILTEP Stack 2.0
500mg Artichoke Extract / 500mg Quercetin / 250mg Resveratrol (PDE4 I)
10mg Forskolin (cAMP ^)
10mg DMAA (Dopamine ?/ Noradrenaline ? )

CDP Focus Blend
4200mg Phosphatidylcholine (replaced this for CDP due to the free choline issues)
250mg Uridine (UMP)
4 gram DHA

Neurobolic Growth System
50mg Noopept (BDNF / NGF) (? need to check if this is actually too strong together with the rest)
500mg ALCAR (BDNF)
500mg Lion's Mane Mushroom (NGF)

AMPA - Activator (alternating)
1200mg Piracetam (preferance)
750mg Oxiracetam
800mg Aniracetam (jury is still out - waiting on medievils feedback)

Support Supps
400mg Calcium Carbonate

Edited by Cephalon, 25 May 2012 - 01:19 AM.

[abelard lindsay]

<p>

So this is the current version of this project. I will start using it as soon as all products arrived.
I would like to replace the DMAA through something safer. Do I have to be concerned about an DI of 20mg?
Once complete I will work my way through the stack step by step.
I will start with the CILTEP Stack 2.0 unit in the morning.
If I tolerate this well I will add Calcium and see if there any benefits/ sideeffects.
Then I will add a dose of the CDP Focus Blend in the midday.
If this goes well I would start adding a racetam, Piracetam most likely.
After using the stack for a few days and being still alive I can consider theNeurobolic Growth System as a last part in the pm.


CILTEP Stack 2.0
500mg Artichoke Extract / 500mg Quercetin / 250mg Resveratrol (PDE4 I)
10mg Forskolin (cAMP ^)
10mg DMAA (Dopamine ?/ Noradrenaline ? )

CDP Focus Blend
4200mg Phosphatidylcholine     (replaced this for CDP due to the free choline issues)
250mg Uridine (UMP)
4 gram DHA

Neurobolic Growth System
50mg Noopept (BDNF / NGF)         (? need to check if this is actually too strong together with the rest)
500mg ALCAR (BDNF)
500mg Lion's Mane Mushroom (NGF)

AMPA - Activator (alternating)
1200mg Piracetam         (preferance)
750mg Oxiracetam
800mg Aniracetam            (jury is still out - waiting on medievils feedback)

Support Supps
400mg Calcium Carbonate

Could you please not use DMAA as your dopamine component? See below.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2257521

Using boring old Tyrosine or even a plain old energy drink you'll probably get gpod results.

You guys always want to push your luck. Geez, this stack works great with boring stuff. The too intense experiences I've had with it were not pleasant.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 25 May 2012 - 04:07 AM.

[health_nutty]

Could you please not use DMAA as your dopamine component? See below.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2257521

Using boring old Tyrosine or even a plain old energy drink you'll probably get gpod results.

You guys always want to push your luck. Geez, this stack works great with boring stuff. The too intense experiences I've had with it were not pleasant.

Your caution is warrented, but I think you might have posted the wrong link. "Diurnal rhythm and 24-hour rhythm of..."

FYI, I tried the stack with around 150-200mg of quercetin and 150mg of caffeine. This is just about the right amount of quercetin, but still a bit much...

[health_nutty]

Use of Recreational Drug 1,3-Dimethylethylamine (DMAA) Associated With Cerebral Hemorrhage.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22575212

[abelard lindsay]

    Use of Recreational Drug 1,3-Dimethylethylamine (DMAA) Associated With Cerebral Hemorrhage.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22575212

Yeah that's the one i meant to post.

[medievil]

Hi Medievil

Exited to hear your report! What's in Focus XT? Have you considered DS Craze? There has been quite a "craze" about it lately.

[Cephalon]

<p>

Could you please not use DMAA as your dopamine component? See below.

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2257521

Using boring old Tyrosine or even a plain old energy drink you'll probably get gpod results.

You guys always want to push your luck. Geez, this stack works great with boring stuff. The too intense experiences I've had with it were not pleasant.

Thanks for pointing this out! Wasn't sure about the DMAA anyways - didn't order it yet.

[Cephalon]

Use of Recreational Drug 1,3-Dimethylethylamine (DMAA) Associated With Cerebral Hemorrhage.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22575212

Thanks for sharing Nutty! Really scary stuff! No way this will be part of the stack.

[Cephalon]

Thanks for posting the label - this blend will replace most of the stack for you ;-)

[telight]

Cephalon: Have you considered levodopa and selegeline as a way to raise dopamine? (or maybe just levodopa by itself to start)


Abelard lindsay: Exactly how much Forskolin are you taking with your CILTEP stack that made Quercetin "kick your ass"? I have been taking 500mg Quercetin and 5mg forskolin, I feel something but I am not sure if it is positive. Btw, I am 19 and about 150 pounds. Will try 250mg Quercetin and 5mg forskolin see if that's better, then move up to 10mg forskolin.

[uglybuddy6]

If you want to raise Dopamine you could use EGCG as a decarboxylase inhibitor and then supplement L-Dopa. Seen EGCG cant pass the blood-brain barrier all the L-Dopa well reach the brain and break down into dopamine. With EGCG added it should limit nausea or completely wipe out the nausea sometimes associated with L-Dopa.

[abelard lindsay]

Cephalon: Have you considered levodopa and selegeline as a way to raise dopamine? (or maybe just levodopa by itself to start)


Abelard lindsay: Exactly how much Forskolin are you taking with your CILTEP stack that made Quercetin "kick your ass"? I have been taking 500mg Quercetin and 5mg forskolin, I feel something but I am not sure if it is positive. Btw, I am 19 and about 150 pounds. Will try 250mg Quercetin and 5mg forskolin see if that's better, then move up to 10mg forskolin.

I took 1 gram of Quercetin and 10mg of Forskolin to get the too much PDE inhibition effect. I think I took Resveratrol, Artichoke and a bunch of other stuff too. Not sure. It took more than about 12 hours or so for it to get to a point where it was unpleasant and then I had to take a whole bunch of GABA to counteract it. The cAMP that builds up decays somewhat slowly. Maybe over the last 6 months I've up-regulated my receptors to the point where I'm more sensitive to it than other people.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 29 May 2012 - 04:18 AM.

[Cephalon]

Cephalon: Have you considered levodopa and selegeline as a way to raise dopamine? (or maybe just levodopa by itself to start)

Hey Telight
Thanks for your suggestion but levodopa appears to be a really unhealthy way to increase dopamine. I think it's associated with increased mortality rates.
I played with the idea to use selegine, but to me it seems to be hard to control - don't want to change my diet (it's complicated enough already)

[telight]

Hey Telight
Thanks for your suggestion but levodopa appears to be a really unhealthy way to increase dopamine. I think it's associated with increased mortality rates.
I played with the idea to use selegine, but to me it seems to be hard to control - don't want to change my diet (it's complicated enough already)

I suppose levodopa is not a permanent solution, but it can tell you if you can in fact derive benefits from increasing brain dopamine. Btw, I take selegeline now and again and it is a great drug, one of the most effective nootropics for me, I don't think you have to worry about diet as with other MAOs even very high doses of selegeline (15mg) do not trigger hypertension with tyramine containing foods. You can still enjoy your fine wine and aged cheese . Although if you are taking other MAOs it would be prudent to be cautious with selegeline. There are a few reports of hypertensive crisis where selegeline was involved, but victims were taking other medications as well so it becomes difficult to even correlate selegeline usage with hypertensive crises. Clinically, selegeline is incredibly safe.

Personally, I have never had any side effects from selegeline at doses as high as 5mg ( I usually take 2.5mg).

[kevinseven11]

Marijuana:
Marijuana is VERY useful as a nootropic. The only problem is I wouldn't use it while trying to learn things. It does enhance creativity and problem solving when using things you already know!
Also Marijuana Inhibits Amloid beta protein production (Key component in Alzheimers). These a useless protein build ups in the brain that everyone has, but others much more.

Arachidonic Acid:
Since DHA is on the supplement list, why isnt Arachidonic acid on the supplement list? AA is in the brain more than DHA is. Guess what, THC increases AA in the brain! In Vitro this causes toxic effects (why some studies say thc is bad for brain) but vivo studies have only shown increases in brain tissues (besides from inhaled carcinogens which lower cerebral circulation and thus decreased neurogenesis).
You can take AA in supplement form, but it will increase you muscle peformance before your brain. Cannabis is the only compound I know that will only raise your brain levels of AA.
Adding AA to the URIDINE Stack should improve the outcomes, maybe thats why Uridine worked very well for me, the occasional vaping session .
Study on AA helping memory. http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15811397
Also a study showing AA more important than other Omega 6 fatty acids (those from olive oil) http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19752581

PS:
Also who ever said Curcumin acts directly on CB1 receptors is wrong. Its an indirect effect that causes the NGF increase. http://onlinelibrary...10.00745.x/full

Edited by kevinseven11, 13 June 2012 - 04:36 AM.

[Raza]

Great thread! Followin'.

If you want to raise Dopamine you could use EGCG as a decarboxylase inhibitor and then supplement L-Dopa. Seen EGCG cant pass the blood-brain barrier all the L-Dopa well reach the brain and break down into dopamine. With EGCG added it should limit nausea or completely wipe out the nausea sometimes associated with L-Dopa.

This should also work, to a lesser degree, with Tyrosine. Tyrosine metabolism into L-Dopa might outlast the EGCG in your system, but judging from the feeling of taking it the process peaks early after consumption.

May not be worth much by itself, but if you're going to include EGCG and tyrosine in a stack anyway, it could be beneficial to take them together.

[Patanjali]

@Cephalon

Very good work, thx for documenting your progress regarding your quest for higher cognitive functioning. I'm fairly new to n(ew)ootropics and started my first CILTEP-Stack yesterday with 50mg Forskolin-Capsules, (which contain 10mg pure Forskolin according to the label on the bottle) and 350mg Artichoke-Extract-Capsules. I have to admit that I was very sceptical that something so easy to obtain could have such a noticaple effect, shortly after administration. The effect is almost like 5mg of Ritalin.

Since that part of your stack seems to work out so well, I'd like to copy it in small steps over the next weeks and adjust it, if necessary. I was wondering if you could recommend a trusted seller for the *racetams, since I'm also located in Germany.

Also, how are you doing on this stack so far? Any changes? Tolerance?

Thanks & Good luck :-)
Patanjali

Edited by Patanjali, 10 July 2012 - 09:01 AM.

[Cephalon]

Hi Patanjali,

It's nice to hear, you find this thread useful, though I do not deserve the honor
It's not invention! I'm not even using it myself I was just consolidating popular stacks here at longecity.

I myself did not try the CILTEP yet, but am excited to try it out. My last supplement order was seized by customs unfortunately.
(Artichoke extract, Forskoline ...)

So I'm currently using another "stack" being Methylphenidate/ Ethylphenidate on and off. CDP-Choline and Piracetam are the backbone definately. Amphetamines if needed. MPA, 3-FA once in a while ... crazy supplement laws over here

Used to use Modafinil quite alot in the past, but decided to quit it once and for all, since I'm sure it makes me stupid.
So actually does the Ethylphenidate - not sure about the Ritalin though. Ethylphenidate makes me really really tired.
MPA gives me too many sideeffects, making it unsuitable for an long term solution.
Will receive Deprenyl in a few days and will try that out. After exams are over I'll cancel this stuff out all together again as each season - will resume my neuroprotection pot therapy again CDP-Choline and Piracetam will stay in of course, being my all times favourites.

I hope your success will be sustainable, and you'll be able to kick the Ads meds!

Edited by Cephalon, 11 July 2012 - 03:37 AM.

[Patanjali]

Thanks for your answer, Cephalon

I really hate Modafinil, since it messes with my sleep and doesn't provide strong enough benefits to justify that. (I take 100mg in the AM). Other than that it makes me argue with people and after ~3 days I feel dumb as a vegetable. Buddy of mine uses it for three weeks straight though, without experiencing any side-effects or withdrawels...

Piracetam (1200mg) and Ritalin (10-20mg) isn't a good idea for me either. Music becomes very vibrant, colors are intense and I don't really feel like doing work. Almost like very weak MDMA

Really impressed by the CILTEP Stack though...

When I started Piracetam last month, I really liked the effects (which I noticed right after the first day). Lately though, the PIR just knocks me out and I'm unable to do anything, since I HAVE to sleep.
Maybe my Choline Source is crap. I also noticed from my Logfiles, that I started Creatine again around the same time, when the PIR started to knock me out... any thoughts on that, anyone? I take
1200mg PIR in the AM + 1200mg PIR at noon + 1 or 2 times 500mg of Choline bitrate.

This is what I use as a Choline-Source: http://www.amazon.de...42077338&sr=8-1
- Inositol 400mg (could this be the problem?)
- Cholin 400mg

Alpha GPC is on it's way though.

Edited by Patanjali, 12 July 2012 - 07:19 AM.

[OpaqueMind]

Does anyone here use the CILTEP stack alongside noopept?

Do they synergise, simply not interfere and do their own thing or does it feel like brain overload?

[GettingThere]

Sorry if this is an obvious question, I'm pretty new to all this, but I haven't heard much mention of Alpha GPC as a possible choline source and I'm wondering if CDP is preferable. Currently I'm taking 1g every day along with 4g piracetam, any thoughts on this dosage?

[owtsgmi]

When I started Piracetam last month, I really liked the effects (which I noticed right after the first day). Lately though, the PIR just knocks me out and I'm unable to do anything, since I HAVE to sleep.

I had a similar experience with piracetam (the tiredness came on more and more). I simply take a lot less now and get good results: 800mg morning and 800mg early afternoon. I started out at 5g per day. I tapered down to where i am now over a year or so. Works as good as it ever has. Also, I haven't needed choline since after about 6 months of taking the piracetam. I do take ALCAR with it, though. I never liked the effects of the choline and seem to be fine without it.