816 replies to this topic

[Duchykins]

After doing some lengthy reading about ashwagandha I decided to order a tiny amount and give it a try. It's potential for thyroid support is what really caught my attention (which reminds me, several of the symptoms OP reported having before ashwagandha are symptoms one would expect with low thyroid).

From what I've learned so far, ash is a vasodilator. In many people this is no big deal, perhaps even beneficial in increasing blood flow and lowering blood pressure. In those who are experiencing vasoconstrictive headaches, ash could help prevent or abort them. But in people who already have lower than average blood pressure and are vulnerable to vasodiltory headaches, ash can give them headaches, varying with dose and co-administration of other vasodilators, or vasoconstrictors.

[Dinvestor]

That's interesting Duchykins. I do suffer from migraines quite a bit...like at least once a week. So, it may be that, as a vasodilator, Ash could 'fuel the fire' so to speak.. although I've read a lot of reports where Ash helped prevent migraines :(

I do like the anxiolytic effects though and that's why I want to take it. I also suffer from Hashimotos so I'm interested to see how Ash helps there.

I'm definitely going to have to play with the dosing to see if I can keep the anti-anxiety effect without triggering a migraine...

Would be great to be able to take something with Ash to counter the vasodilatory effects...Anybody have any suggestions?

Edited by Dinvestor, 22 February 2014 - 12:39 AM.

[Duchykins]

That's interesting Duchykins. I do suffer from migraines quite a bit...like at least once a week. So, it may be that, as a vasodilator, Ash could 'fuel the fire' so to speak.. although I've read a lot of reports where Ash helped prevent migraines :(

I do like the anxiolytic effects though and that's why I want to take it. I also suffer from Hashimotos so I'm interested to see how Ash helps there.

I'm definitely going to have to play with the dosing to see if I can keep the anti-anxiety effect without triggering a migraine...

Would be great to be able to take something with Ash to counter the vasodilatory effects...Anybody have any suggestions?

A decade-long migraineur with a baseline BP of 100-90/50, I have a special vulnerability to vasodilatory headaches and they just happen to be the worst and least likely to be dulled or aborted by analgesics. I had to stop taking bacopa, ginseng and ginkgo in the same day even in low doses, stop arginine altogether (except for the modest doses in my protein powder).

Identifying a vasodilator is fairly simple - they tend to produce feelings of warmth or flushing in people, especially in face. That's a symptom of vasodilation. For those like me, heated cheeks, ears is a really bad sign and means I need to do something about it immediately before it blows up into a migraine and I have to take a triptan to kill it. Pounding headaches are typically indicative of vasodilation; tension-type typically indicative of vasoconstriction. Typically. Identifying what kind of headache you have is the key to killing and preventing them.

Serotonin is probably the most potent vasoconstrictor. I can still take some vasodilators if I stagger them smartly with my migraine prophylaxis stack (lysine, theanine, chromium, co q 10 magnesium, potassium, calcium, vit d, taurine). I recently made a critical error and messed with that well-established stack by decreasing some daily doses, getting lazy/complacent and taking some of them irregularly, but I fixed that real quick lol and learned my lesson there; do not fuck with that stack ever again. Constant vigilance! :D

With that stack, my migraine threshold has significantly increased and I can tolerate more triggers before a migraine attacks. In the past two weeks I've only needed to take sumatriptan once, and that was AFTER I messed with that wonderful stack.

50mg doses of 5-htp can head off impending vasodilatory headaches. A second 50mg dose an hour later if the first wasn't enough. 5-htp should not be taken regularly unless you don't care if your serotonin is downregulated. So if you find yourself relying on it almost daily for headache relief or prevention, it might be best to stop and cut back on the vasodilators, of which there are many in the nootropic arena.

Caffeine also causes constriction, and it's why it's often found in OTC headache meds like Excedrin. Some may find caffeine preferable to serotonin. Stimulants are typically constrictors but there is a downside of using these regularly too. (for me, caffeine is never enough to kill a hot, pounding migraine)

So even after all this, I decided I could risk a try at the ash. I can have 240mg of gingko every day without a hint of headache *as long as I don't take the other herbs that day*, so I figure maybe I could swap out the ginkgo for ash and see what happens.

I'm hoping for thyroid or anxiolytic effects from the ash, either would suit me fine.

Apologies for being long-winded. I hope I've imparted something useful to a few others. Good luck with your ash!

Edited by Duchykins, 22 February 2014 - 02:59 AM.

[Duchykins]

If you're interested in preventing migraines, look into my stack. I cannot believe how well it works compared to the prescription preventatives I've tried (which all failed and some even increased the rate of headaches). Don't take my word for it, look up all of these, their mechanisms and the roles they play in headaches.

Before building that stack up, I would always run out of my 12 sumatriptan doses before I could get my next monthly refill. Always ran out early, and it made life hellish. My last refill was January 23. Today is Feb 21 and I have 9 doses left. NINE DOSES!! It's amazing.

[Dinvestor]

Duchykins...solid info. As a long term migraineur I can relate to pretty much everything you wrote. For me right now, the goal is to find an herbal or nutraceutical constrictor that may offset the dilation that Ash may cause OR play with the Ash dose and see if I can find efficacy at the right dose without too much dilation. I'd try caffeine, but I can't handle it...too much CNS stimulation that can cause a panic attack.

I may have to look into your stack for migraine prevention. I have had zero luck finding a way to deal with my triggers, other than diet modification, which helped a little. I avoid pharmaceuticals with the exception of a triptan to try to abort.

My problems all stem from an 18 year battle with Lyme Disease that wreaked havoc on my nervous system...

Yes, I'd be interested in that stack...how much you take of each, when you take them, etc...

[Duchykins]

Duchykins...solid info. As a long term migraineur I can relate to pretty much everything you wrote. For me right now, the goal is to find an herbal or nutraceutical constrictor that may offset the dilation that Ash may cause OR play with the Ash dose and see if I can find efficacy at the right dose without too much dilation. I'd try caffeine, but I can't handle it...too much CNS stimulation that can cause a panic attack.

I may have to look into your stack for migraine prevention. I have had zero luck finding a way to deal with my triggers, other than diet modification, which helped a little. I avoid pharmaceuticals with the exception of a triptan to try to abort.

My problems all stem from an 18 year battle with Lyme Disease that wreaked havoc on my nervous system...

Yes, I'd be interested in that stack...how much you take of each, when you take them, etc...

I hear all of that. Especially the caffeine, it's now restricted to very small irregular doses to prevent withdrawal/rebound headaches. There's a bunch of stuff I forgot to mention. One of the diet changes I made that helped was swapping dairy milk for soy. I also forgot to mention EPA/DHA in my stack where EPA content is twice the DHA, and moderate doses of soy lecithin. Migraineurs nearly universally have low antioxidant levels and high oxidative stress in the brain. Whetjer or not it's a cause or effect, it seems boosting antioxidants helps some. But becareful not to go overboard.

I believe antihistamines are also constrictors, I usually fail to mention them because I don't like taking anything that makes me drowsy. Forgot about acetylcholine, hurr hurr that's why I take lecithin and alcar. Alcar is a toughie since some people get headaches from it though


A note about chromium; it's in my stack because it regulates blood sugar, preventing sugar highs and lows, where lows trigger migraines

Edited by Duchykins, 22 February 2014 - 03:39 AM.

[Dinvestor]

Do you have your stack listed somewhere or can you PM me? I'm very interested in what you're doing.

[Duchykins]

Here's what I usually do


1g lysine (500mg twice daily, on empty stomach like with all amino acids) you can do up to 3g I think, I plan to go higher for more GABA for irritability

minimum 200mg theanine (100mg twice daily, on empty stomach, don't recommend taking this within 6 hours of bedtime since it increases alpha waves, which could decrease the quality of your sleep by interfering with beta waves)

minimum 100mg Co Q 10

200mg-400mg chromium pico ( i'm going to try a tri-chromium complex next month, the pico works but maybe there is better hahah)

1,400mg fish oil (647 epa/253 dha)

3600-4800mg lecithin (spaced out in 1200mg capsules, varying with noot use)

up to ~400mg potassium citrate (take with food and not more than 200mg at a time) you can go higher

3g taurine (1.5g in the morning and evening, more if I ate something with MSG since taurine protects against glutamate excitotoxicity)

a calcium/mag/zinc complex

400mg ALCAR (empty stomach)

200mg-600mg ALA (empty stomach)

standard b complex

1g creatine mono, micronized (people will get hydration headaches with creatine if they don't drink enough water) ATP activity constricts


I don't do multivitamins except maybe once a week, or half of one every 3 or 4 days.

Did I forget one? hahaha

oh yea D3 2000 IU

300-600mg NAC (evening)


have 5-htp handy for occasional doses, tryptophan might be better here for regular use


I take a few other things but not for migraine prevention

Edited by Duchykins, 22 February 2014 - 04:15 AM.

[Godof Smallthings]

minimum 200mg theanine (100mg twice daily, on empty stomach, don't recommend taking this within 6 hours of bedtime since it increases alpha waves, which could decrease the quality of your sleep by interfering with beta waves)

http://examine.com/s...ments/Theanine/ and the studies I've browsed in PubMed such as suggest that l-theanine is moderately helpful with sleep. As far as I understand, beta waves are associated with normal waking consciousness, alpha waves with relaxation, in particular when the eyes are closed, theta predominates during the hypnagogic stages (in between waking and dreaming) and delta during deep sleep.

[Duchykins]

minimum 200mg theanine (100mg twice daily, on empty stomach, don't recommend taking this within 6 hours of bedtime since it increases alpha waves, which could decrease the quality of your sleep by interfering with beta waves)

http://examine.com/s...ments/Theanine/ and the studies I've browsed in PubMed such as suggest that l-theanine is moderately helpful with sleep. As far as I understand, beta waves are associated with normal waking consciousness, alpha waves with relaxation, in particular when the eyes are closed, theta predominates during the hypnagogic stages (in between waking and dreaming) and delta during deep sleep.

True. It seems I misread my own notes lol! I went back and looked at what I wrote. Sorry guys and thanks for the catch

[jetmango]

But in people who already have lower than average blood pressure and are vulnerable to vasodiltory headaches, ash can give them headaches, varying with dose and co-administration of other vasodilators, or vasoconstrictors.

I do not suffer for low blood pressure, actually it is quite the opposite - and still get headaches from KSM66. My GF experienced exactly same effects.

Duchykins, sometimes even after lowering the dose I still get the headaches - it felt like 'allergic' reaction to this specific type of ashwagandha.

I do not take it any longer as my therapist suggested that herbs such like this should not be taken for long term on their own, and it is better to take complex mixtures [or tinctures]


btw, headaches [normal ones, not related to ashwagandha] might have reason somewhere else, like too much pressure on the veins due to bad posture/stiff neck that prevents blood to flow easily [for example]. But certainly your body does give you signals that something is wrong.

Edited by mangoa, 22 February 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[Babychris]

What about combining ashwagandha and coluracetam, They may interact badly (like most noots I've noticed) but if not it could be a wonderful combo, because coluracetam is a pretty solide nootropic and anxyolitic agent and ashwagandha is just great.

[jonnyD]

What about combining ashwagandha and coluracetam, They may interact badly (like most noots I've noticed) but if not it could be a wonderful combo, because coluracetam is a pretty solide nootropic and anxyolitic agent and ashwagandha is just great.

I am taking Ashwagandha and Coluracetam for 6 days now. I think hey do not "interact" at all. I just feel the effects of both... maybe the coluracetam effects are slightly less present (could be tolerance too).

]

Edited by jonnyD, 22 February 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[Dinvestor]

Duchykins, thanks for the stack info. If you were just starting out, what 3 or 4 components of your stack would you recommend? Tight budget and want to slowly ramp up...still wish I could find one supplement to take to counter Ash's dilating...I really like the effects of Ash, but don't want the increase in migraines...

[Babychris]

What about combining ashwagandha and coluracetam, They may interact badly (like most noots I've noticed) but if not it could be a wonderful combo, because coluracetam is a pretty solide nootropic and anxyolitic agent and ashwagandha is just great.

I am taking Ashwagandha and Coluracetam for 6 days now. I think hey do not "interact" at all. I just feel the effects of both... maybe the coluracetam effects are slightly less present (could be tolerance too).

]

And What are you getting from both in term of effect jonny D ?

[jonnyD]

What about combining ashwagandha and coluracetam, They may interact badly (like most noots I've noticed) but if not it could be a wonderful combo, because coluracetam is a pretty solide nootropic and anxyolitic agent and ashwagandha is just great.

I am taking Ashwagandha and Coluracetam for 6 days now. I think hey do not "interact" at all. I just feel the effects of both... maybe the coluracetam effects are slightly less present (could be tolerance too).

]

And What are you getting from both in term of effect jonny D ?

Ashwagandha:
Positive:
Less anxiety, increased overall sense of well-being in low doses (morning, midday) and better (more restful) sleep at night in higher doses (evening).
I am pretty sure that i get better effects at my fitness workout.

Neutral:
It makes me a bit more aggressive. I think that is positive for me because i am not aggressive at all usually and i tend to avoid conflicts that i should not avoid but people around me noticed it and asked me if anything is wrong.

Negative:
It made me a bit sleepy the first 2-3 days and decreased my working memory a bit.

Coluracetam:
Positive:
Increased focus, increased motivation, slightly better short and mid-term memory, feeling more present "in the zone", increased perception of colors....
I am more confident in general and that is (for me) a unique effect of this *racetam.

Negative:
It makes me sometimes manic if i combine it with coffeine.
I get a slight feeling of nausea if i take it sublingual on empty stomach.

Edited by jonnyD, 22 February 2014 - 03:32 PM.

[brink]

I do not take it any longer as my therapist suggested that herbs such like this should not be taken for long term on their own, and it is better to take complex mixtures [or tinctures]

The thread that never dies eh mangoa haha

Just was curious what you meant by complex mixtures?

[HoldingTheFaith]

Just so you know guys, Ash should be cycled for various reasons. I have decided to cycle it 5 days on, 2 off. I will experiment with dosages and post about my experience soon.

Those two days off, we can find something similar in effects. I have a couple of things that I will be trying.

Good point brink what is a complex mixture anyway? And tinctures and dried herbs are essentially the same, probably they differ in potency.

[Duchykins]

But in people who already have lower than average blood pressure and are vulnerable to vasodiltory headaches, ash can give them headaches, varying with dose and co-administration of other vasodilators, or vasoconstrictors.

I do not suffer for low blood pressure, actually it is quite the opposite - and still get headaches from KSM66. My GF experienced exactly same effects.

Duchykins, sometimes even after lowering the dose I still get the headaches - it felt like 'allergic' reaction to this specific type of ashwagandha.

I do not take it any longer as my therapist suggested that herbs such like this should not be taken for long term on their own, and it is better to take complex mixtures [or tinctures]


btw, headaches [normal ones, not related to ashwagandha] might have reason somewhere else, like too much pressure on the veins due to bad posture/stiff neck that prevents blood to flow easily [for example]. But certainly your body does give you signals that something is wrong.

I agree with all of this. Headache is so complicated, there are so many kinds of headaches and causes, and solutions ...

[Duchykins]

Duchykins, thanks for the stack info. If you were just therting out, what 3 or 4 components of your stack would you recommend? Tight budget and want to slowly ramp up...still wish I could find one supplement to take to counter Ash's dilating...I really like the effects of Ash, but don't want the increase in migraines...

My personal absolute must-haves are the lysine, theanine, NAC (can swap this for co q 10 or EPA), chromium, taurine, creatine

(assuming magnesium, zinc, selenium, calc and D3, B vitamins are coming from a multitvitamin for cost efficiency)

However, you may have different needs depending on what your triggers are, and triggers can widely vary among different people. For example, extra chromium beyond what's in a multivitamin may be useless to you for migraine prevention if you eat several times a day already and aren't too sensitive to low blood sugar. If glutamate doesn't trigger migraines then taurine may be of less use to you as well.


Whatever you choose to try first, I would suggest the lysine for cheapness and wide therapeutic application. As it is involved with your body's production of GABA, lysine can also help with anxiety. Theanine can be more expensive but don't forget you can get theanine in smaller amounts from green tea and green tea extract. Theanine also has notable anxiolytic properties and can protect against glutamate excitotoxicity like taurine.

Creatine (1 to 1.5g) is on my list in part because I don't eat much meat and because ATP activity often has vasoconstrictive effects. I have yet to try ribose with creatine to further support ATP.


It's probable, even common, that a single migraine trigger may not result in an attack, but a combination of triggers will almost certainly. Eliminating other triggers would likely allow you to take ash in moderate doses.

Do lots of reading on all of this stuff from a variety of sources, it will help you figure out your triggers and what supplements to try first.

Edited by Duchykins, 22 February 2014 - 07:00 PM.

[Dinvestor]

Thanks Duchykins. I started the stack today with Taurine, Lysine, Theanine, Ubiquinol and a Cal/mag/VitD combo. Sounds like I may want to add in the Creatine, but we'll see what this all does. I am going to keep trying the Ash at a full dose (KSM-66 15mg) either once or twice a day. So far today, no headache...we'll see.

[Duchykins]

Thanks Duchykins. I started the stack today with Taurine, Lysine, Theanine, Ubiquinol and a Cal/mag/VitD combo. Sounds like I may want to add in the Creatine, but we'll see what this all does. I am going to keep trying the Ash at a full dose (KSM-66 15mg) either once or twice a day. So far today, no headache...we'll see.

Good luck!

[Babychris]

What about combining ashwagandha and coluracetam, They may interact badly (like most noots I've noticed) but if not it could be a wonderful combo, because coluracetam is a pretty solide nootropic and anxyolitic agent and ashwagandha is just great.

I am taking Ashwagandha and Coluracetam for 6 days now. I think hey do not "interact" at all. I just feel the effects of both... maybe the coluracetam effects are slightly less present (could be tolerance too).

]

And What are you getting from both in term of effect jonny D ?

Ashwagandha:
Positive:
Less anxiety, increased overall sense of well-being in low doses (morning, midday) and better (more restful) sleep at night in higher doses (evening).
I am pretty sure that i get better effects at my fitness workout.

Neutral:
It makes me a bit more aggressive. I think that is positive for me because i am not aggressive at all usually and i tend to avoid conflicts that i should not avoid but people around me noticed it and asked me if anything is wrong.

Negative:
It made me a bit sleepy the first 2-3 days and decreased my working memory a bit.

Coluracetam:
Positive:
Increased focus, increased motivation, slightly better short and mid-term memory, feeling more present "in the zone", increased perception of colors....
I am more confident in general and that is (for me) a unique effect of this *racetam.

Negative:
It makes me sometimes manic if i combine it with coffeine.
I get a slight feeling of nausea if i take it sublingual on empty stomach.

Thanks you very much, man. Now how do Aswagandha affect your memory and your ability to study ? Does the negative subside totally, evenly does it get better than without ?

[jonnyD]

Thanks you very much, man. Now how do Aswagandha affect your memory and your ability to study ? Does the negative subside totally, evenly does it get better than without ?

Low doses do not affect my memory at all after some days. So i would say the negatives subside totally.

[golden1]

Could anyone reccommend an adaptogen or supplement similar to ashwagandha but without the testosterone boosting properties? In a jist, ashwagandha motivates me to be social, gives me tons of energy, and also some euphoria. I know that it affects my testosterone because it increases my acne and improves my libido. But the acne is too much to handle so I cannot continue with it. Or does anyone know the mechanism in which ashwagandha affects mood and energy? I'm in a pickle right now and any information would be immensely helpful. Thanks.

possibly also related to the testosterone boost. the gaba effects which it seems it acts similar to benzos could improve mood& energy too. I obviously dont recommend benzos, but they did have a strong (positive) effect on mood& energy.


also I got himalaya ashwaganda last week. If I take 3 it has a pretty obvious effect.. I'd think it would be more popular (in general) with these effects, weird.

Edited by golden1, 24 February 2014 - 02:47 AM.

[jonnyD]

Could anyone reccommend an adaptogen or supplement similar to ashwagandha but without the testosterone boosting properties? In a jist, ashwagandha motivates me to be social, gives me tons of energy, and also some euphoria. I know that it affects my testosterone because it increases my acne and improves my libido. But the acne is too much to handle so I cannot continue with it. Or does anyone know the mechanism in which ashwagandha affects mood and energy? I'm in a pickle right now and any information would be immensely helpful. Thanks.

I know some alternatives but nothing that acts really like ashwagandha (maybe maca for energy and bacopa for lower anxiety and better mood).
Did you ever try MSM? It helped me a lot with skin issues.

[HoldingTheFaith]

I would be careful with maca, it can aggravate insomnia which often those that are intesterested in Ash have to some degree, but it is a great aprhodisiac,

I have yet to try Bacopa but will do!

[Dinvestor]

Just an update...Dang, Tried your stack Dutchykins

Thanks Duchykins. I started the stack today with Taurine, Lysine, Theanine, Ubiquinol and a Cal/mag/VitD combo. Sounds like I may want to add in the Creatine, but we'll see what this all does. I am going to keep trying the Ash at a full dose (KSM-66 15mg) either once or twice a day. So far today, no headache...we'll see.

Good luck!

Well, two days into this stack along with the Ash (KSM-66) by Nutrigold and I've had migraines both days! My guess is it's the Ash...but, along with the headaches, I've been getting this woosyness around my eyes and, what feels like, eye twitching, which is pretty uncomfortable...I wonder if it's from excessive vasodilation..

Guess I'll just try the stack without the Ash and see if the headaches decrease along with a reduction in these weird eye symptoms..

[Babychris]

I love ashwagandha but it makes my skin itching whitout any apparent rash or anything, just some nasty scratching particularly at night and on my hands and feets..