816 replies to this topic

[Sol23]

I didnt noticed any effects you are mentioning - re hair loss or thyroid problems, but ashwa after initial mild anti anxiety effect did nothing for me.

 

mostly produced strong headaches [you can read about it before in this topic AFAIR] and that was it. in comparison, even taurine wins. [not even mentioning lysine]

 

my idea is probably some supplements are working as gold for some people and not really for others- because everyone is different and probably got diff lacking neurotransmiters - for me it was defo the mix of serotonin, then GABA, then dopamine. 

That's true.Did you noticed different effect taking it on empty stomach?Also, did you try to take in conjunction with rhodiola?

[jetmango]

yes I was taking rhodiola and not in combination with ashwa- rhodiola gave me much better effects - but again it does make sense as rhodiola increases serotonin AFAIK.

 

After both rhodiola [2-3 months] and ashwa [2 months AFAIR] I noticed tachycardia and being more anxious/nervous than before. 

 

Empty stomach - hmmm I guess its effect was slightly more pronounced but that is valid with everything taken on empty stomach. 

[Sol23]

yes I was taking rhodiola and not in combination with ashwa- rhodiola gave me much better effects - but again it does make sense as rhodiola increases serotonin AFAIK.

 

After both rhodiola [2-3 months] and ashwa [2 months AFAIR] I noticed tachycardia and being more anxious/nervous than before. 

 

Empty stomach - hmmm I guess its effect was slightly more pronounced but that is valid with everything taken on empty stomach. 

 

So you didn't take breaks?It's advised to cycle those two herbs, especially rhodiola.

I have noticed a slightly more pronounced effect on epmty stomach too.Although in examine.com  is recommended to take it with food in himalaya label brand it writes to take it on empty stonach.Go figure.

Edited by Sol23, 16 April 2015 - 02:36 PM.

[jetmango]

I did , during weekends so 2-3 days every 2 weeks.

[jetmango]

but you see, that was before I found my herbalists - and the lady advised me that it is best to NOT take one single supplement over longer period, especially without proper diagnose. That it is far better to mix 7-8 different herbs in a tincture which you take during the day, but the doses are synergistic and thus can be small.

 

I started to take prescribed mixture from her [in a form of a bottle mixed with small amount alcohol] - which contained things like milk thistle, liquorice, hops, Valeriana officinalis, Leonurus L. and few others (I dont have list with myself) to direct issues that I had-  anxiety, problems with sleeping, lack of energy. And the mixture targeted what was causing the problem- my heart (weakened by stress and smoking), and liver (which was overloaded with detoxing my body) + also anti-spasmodic herbs for the night before sleep to direct issues with CNS. 

[jetmango]

what she said is by taking one single herb like ashwagandha over longer period you can further cause inbalances in the body, even if you 'feel' better for a while.

 

this way of dealing with issues worked with me

 

I learned there is no 'magic pill' and mostly I needed to take care of myself- address my sleeping patterns, smoking, drinking, stress and all. I introduced yoga, meditation, healthy food, probiotics, excercising and so on... quit the partying scene for a while. Quit caffeine. 

 

That change of lifestyle helped me mostly! Sorry for OT - hope it helps to find a way that works for you.

 

 

[Sol23]

what she said is by taking one single herb like ashwagandha over longer period you can further cause inbalances in the body, even if you 'feel' better for a while.

 

this way of dealing with issues worked with me

 

I learned there is no 'magic pill' and mostly I needed to take care of myself- address my sleeping patterns, smoking, drinking, stress and all. I introduced yoga, meditation, healthy food, probiotics, excercising and so on... quit the partying scene for a while. Quit caffeine. 

 

That change of lifestyle helped me mostly! Sorry for OT - hope it helps to find a way that works for you.

That might be the case.Also, there is a thread about ashwagandha withdrawl in longecity.Personally,I always try to take a sufficient break from any herb.

As for lifestyle changes, I know that work in the root of the problem.

[Chris_T_Malta]

yes I was taking rhodiola and not in combination with ashwa- rhodiola gave me much better effects - but again it does make sense as rhodiola increases serotonin AFAIK.

 

After both rhodiola [2-3 months] and ashwa [2 months AFAIR] I noticed tachycardia and being more anxious/nervous than before. 

 

Empty stomach - hmmm I guess its effect was slightly more pronounced but that is valid with everything taken on empty stomach. 

 

 

Could the tachycardia be from rhodiala? I tried it last October and felt more anxious with it.

 

As regards to the other post, I don't think it's the best approach to try all this stuff at once - in that way you will never know what works and what doesn't.

 

Right now I am focusing on ASH - but I am also using coffee when I need to boost. The only subjective observation I can make after a week or so of ASH (400mg 3% Withnolides * 2 (morning and evening) is that at times I seem to be less motivated and more calm. From what I learnt, I think I am a dopamine-dominant individual and ASH seems to undermine the motivating push I have. Seem I think this stuff is largely subject to the psychology of the individual.  

[stolpioni]

I'm glad lysine and taurine were brought up, and I'm glad I read your glowing reviews on them. I have already been conducting research on them, and I'm considering testing them out next because I'm fascinated by the effects of testing amino acids in a singular fashion.

 

However, back to the reason I came to this thread. I was about to try ashwagandha, but I read a lot of subjective experiences relating to hair loss, an overstimulated thyroid, and more.

 

I've taken cordyceps, another adaptogen, in the past. It seems to modulate thyroid levels, as does rhodiola from what I've read. However everything I've come across with ashwagandha seems that it stimulates the thyroid, not modulate it. Does anyone have any more information on this? The reason I'm asking is because I already have an overactive thyroid and a fast metabolism. I'm a pretty lean fellow, and I believe it to be somewhat genetic. Cordyceps has been great in the past, and I really want to start testing out other adaptogens, but I also don't want to risk hyperthyroidism, hair loss, etc. 

 

Have you tested your thyroid or are you just speculating?

 

I have a fast metabolism as well but I'm hypo.

[jetmango]

tachycardia could be from rhodiola, yes - in a way when your serotonin is too high maybe then you get tachy.. same stuff happens if you take 5-htp for too long [or too much]

 

rhodiola in my scale was far better than ashwa, they saying that ash is regulating your nervous system but I dont believe that a single thing can have so many properties [rumours are that it regulates CNS down when its needed or up - again if needed] for me that sounds just like sellers gossip. 

 

and for me ashwa had this feeling like it was something rough, without really huge potential. albeit some people finding that it works for them much better than for me.

 

also my ex gf tried ash and got almost the same effects as me - just headache and mild sedating effect for the first few days. and then nothing. 

 

I tried supersmart high potency one and also himalaya.  AFAIR if I took a little bit too much headaches were bigger and terrible. not worth the fuss IMHO.

[VerdeGo]

I had my thyroid levels tested and they are in the normal range, so it's sheer speculation. But my metabolism is very high, and it's hard to put on any significant weight. I finally switched my diet to eating healthy, and of course that is going to cause me to lose weight, but I've felt much better after doing so. I just don't want to risk taking ash if it's going to increase my metabolism and alter my thyroid further. Considering I'm already healthy in the eyes of the doc, I can't see risking it. Cordyceps still makes me nervous to take because its action is so complex and not fully understood, but it's saved me from very bad situations in the past and quieted all my physical symptoms. Apparently it's a fungus that's anti-fungal. Reishi I'll never do again. It felt like an alien was living inside me. That some other intelligence was coexisting in my body, and it was a very strange feeling. Mushroom adaptogens are definitely interesting yet a little scary, that's why I've been researching herbal adaptogens. I'm still on the fence with rhodiola. Before I try another adaptogen I plan to experiment with taurine and carnosine, since they both have studies relating to life extension and all around health (carnosine makes me a tad nervous, since human studies are lacking, and it's a relatively new amino to hit store shelves). But I'm going off on a tangent here...

 

There's just a lot of conflicting reports on adaptogens like ashwagandha, and studies don't come close to explaining some of the negative subjective reviews on this substance (though they are in the minority). What are we taking it for exactly? Each person is different. For me, I just like to experiment to see what will take me beyond the normal level of living into a heightened state of focus, motivation, and happiness. Without weird rashes, depersonalization, physiological issues, etc (not referring to ash in particular, but all adaptogens). If I take cordyceps every day, I'll get weird head sensations (like a jolt of electricity from nowhere and other unexplained side effects), so I take it sparingly. And for that I've got to gauge the risk and reward of such a substance. 

 

[Kalliste]

Tried Ashw twice. Think it was one 500mg cap each time. Had very crystal clear nightmares both times. I think I will pass on it from now on

[Debaser]

I had my thyroid levels tested and they are in the normal range, so it's sheer speculation. But my metabolism is very high, and it's hard to put on any significant weight.

 

Sorry, but the idea of fast and slow metabolisms is mostly a myth. The variation between people is tiny. You admit that your thyroid levels are normal.

 

Most people who think they have "fast metabolisms" simply have good appetite control and eat the right amount of food, although they often perceive themselves to be eating loads. In reality compared to others, they are not. Most people who think they have "slow metabolisms" simply eat too much, although they often perceive themselves to eat "very healthily".

 

If you ate more, you would put on weight. If a fat person ate less, they would lose weight. The real difference between people is not that their bodies are somehow able to defy physics, but that their hormones, the levels of them, when they're released, and how their brain responds to them, differs, so that some people feel hungrier or don't stop feeling hungry after eating, or crave certain foods more because they're used to them or because of how their diet is composed.

 

Also, the physical size of a person and how much muscle they have will change how many calories they need to maintain themselves (and as such, women generally need less). So in a marriage, if the man and the woman eat the same meals then the woman will get fat. And a fat person actually needs more calories to maintain their weight, so if you compare yourself to what others around you eat, the chances are you're comparing yourself to people who overeat, because over 2/3 of people are overweight.

[jetmango]

Cordyceps still makes me nervous to take because its action is so complex and not fully understood, but it's saved me from very bad situations in the past and quieted all my physical symptoms.

 

What kind of physical symptoms do you mean?

 

Also - can you elaborate a little bit on Reishi mushrooms?

 

Well for me re ashwa- if anything goes up [ashwa gives a 'high feeling'] then it must go down - its a law of nature and you can't cheat that. 

 

This is why I try to stick with something even more 'natural' [for the body] than supplements - and I of course mean amino-acid lysine here. And re taurine- it is added to red bull for a reason as it counter acts the super-stimulant action of caffeine so you don't get headache for having too much of it in 1 time.

Edited by mangoa, 18 April 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[stolpioni]

 

I had my thyroid levels tested and they are in the normal range, so it's sheer speculation. But my metabolism is very high, and it's hard to put on any significant weight.

 

Sorry, but the idea of fast and slow metabolisms is mostly a myth. The variation between people is tiny. You admit that your thyroid levels are normal.

 

Most people who think they have "fast metabolisms" simply have good appetite control and eat the right amount of food, although they often perceive themselves to be eating loads. In reality compared to others, they are not. Most people who think they have "slow metabolisms" simply eat too much, although they often perceive themselves to eat "very healthily".

 

If you ate more, you would put on weight. If a fat person ate less, they would lose weight. The real difference between people is not that their bodies are somehow able to defy physics, but that their hormones, the levels of them, when they're released, and how their brain responds to them, differs, so that some people feel hungrier or don't stop feeling hungry after eating, or crave certain foods more because they're used to them or because of how their diet is composed.

 

Also, the physical size of a person and how much muscle they have will change how many calories they need to maintain themselves (and as such, women generally need less). So in a marriage, if the man and the woman eat the same meals then the woman will get fat. And a fat person actually needs more calories to maintain their weight, so if you compare yourself to what others around you eat, the chances are you're comparing yourself to people who overeat, because over 2/3 of people are overweight.

 

 

Actually, this is false.

 

Before going on SSRI's my Thyroid levels were low. I have been counting calories for years and my daily intake was 5000kcal.

This was maintenance (meaning, I would neither gain weight or lose weight on 5000kcal).

 

After a year on Zoloft my Thyroid levels more than tripled and I'm now eating 1500-2000kcal a day, for maintenance.

 

So, I eat about 1/3rd of how much I ate before for the same weight.

[Chris_T_Malta]

I decided to stop the intake of Ashwagandha 400mg (3% Withanolides).

 

Took them for a couple of weeks - at best I felt nothing - at worst it made me more anxious. I thought the latter may be due to my negative-placebo impression but yesterday evening I experienced a strange effect which is more tangible.

 

I had a very relaxing day yesterday - so relaxing I could afford 2 coffees with no spike in agitation (I am a slow caffeine metabolizer and thus caffeine has a significant reaction). I spent the evening playing a computer game and got sleepy in a natural way. Before going to bed, I took an ashwagandha pill and set myself to watch a relaxing show when.. boom: slight palpitations - the kind of stuff I get when I got stressful situations. But I wasn't stressed. I actually expected sleep immediately.

 

I experienced this problem with Rhodiala too. There must be something in adaptogens that affects me negatively once their proper effect (2 weeks) starts taking place. 

 

 

[VerdeGo]

Cordyceps still makes me nervous to take because its action is so complex and not fully understood, but it's saved me from very bad situations in the past and quieted all my physical symptoms.

 

What kind of physical symptoms do you mean?

 

Also - can you elaborate a little bit on Reishi mushrooms?

 

 

I had an issue after using sulbutiamine for two years. I rarely used it and when I did the doses were small. The effects were profound, though. I still can't figure out what exactly happened. The last day I used it (in a small dose of 200-300 mg), everything seemed normal. I also moved a heavy couch that night before going to bed. The next day I woke up to nausea, brain fog, etc. The brain fog was normal since sulb produces a hangover effect. However the nausea lingered on (never to the point of vomiting). The brain fog progressed to the point I could barely recall short-term memory. This progressed into paresthesia (pins and needles), misfiring nerves, hot/cold extremities, heat intolerance, full-blown physical anxiety (though I was quite happy during the first week from either the uptick in serotonin or dopamine from this nootropic), rashes, and other extreme physical concerns. I felt like I was on my deathbed for five weeks. I could barely function to work, and it was the worse experience in my life. It eventually subsided after about 5 weeks.

 

I was convinced at first it was a pinched nerve, as I had similar symptoms for a week the previous year. However this time I experienced no burning sensations on my arms leading up to this event, nor did I have panic attacks or insurmountable anxiety the last time. Even today B vitamins (sulb is a b1 analog) tend to bring back the paresthesia for some reason. The doctors couldn't figure anything out, though only bloodwork was performed. From my own research it sounds like high acetylcholine/low GABA symptoms. They seem to all fit. The only thing different I introduced into my regimen was cordyceps, a few weeks prior. I also took sulbutiamine one other time after starting cordyceps without issue. Ironically, the cordyceps was the only thing to make me return to absolute normal, without ANY symptoms whatsoever, so perhaps inflammation was involved? Ibuprofen also helped to a degree, as did alcohol. Cannabis simply induced panic attacks and a convulsion at one point. The curing effects from cordyceps would last a day and a half, but by the end of the next night the symptoms would return. On a few occasions the cordyceps caused a very scary flushing sensation that made me feel excessively hot, with heart racing. I nearly passed out on several occasions. So at times cordyceps tended to aggravate things to the point of hellish. So I took less of it, and less often, and it was simply a cure-all, albeit temporary, and it helped me to get through this rough time. I sincerely hope it wasn't the cause of everything, masquerading as the cure as well. That would be disturbingly ironic!

 

To this day cordyceps (and I'm guessing similar adaptogenic herbs will provide the same effect) continues to make me focused, alert, and energetic. I take it sparingly, because if taken more often than once every 5-6 days, I'll get weird side effects like "head jolts" and a speedy feeling. Not really sure what that's about, but it concerns me because of its complex nature.

 

Reishi, another adaptogenic mushroom, was even stranger. After consuming it, I'd experience old memories come into play. It was as if I was experiencing deja vu, or an open window into the past. At one point I could visualize wormholes coming out of people, as in the movie Donnie Darko. I did not feel like myself, though I still had my emotion and wit intact. It just felt like another intelligence was taking residence in my head, though this went away when the effects wore off. I can see why people call this the most spiritual adaptogen, and why they believe it opens up the Third Eye. I definitely felt and sensed energy.

 

I did make a note of it last November:

 

"Music sounded complex and the stream of cars in front of me seemed like a wormhole of sorts as the caravan of cars flowed through the curves of the road. I remember driving over the bridge with the hazy sun above me, and I realized just how alien the environment was. I was used to this drive, my usual route to work, but the whole idea of cars and people inside them threw me off. Take away the cars, the people, and the bridge, and we are just left with this planet and the distant stars. Why are we here? Everything seemed so alien, and I joked to myself that I had an alien inside me. It became apparent early on the second dose was not needed. It made my thoughts difficult to verbalize, and I became quite frustrated, though I felt good later that night when the effects wore off."

 

A friend of mine took reishi on multiple occasions, but it eventually led to rashes and strange mental effects. It caused my stool to become yellowish, but this effect was temporary and may have been due to its detox effects. I've read even stranger reactions to it, but these reactions tend to go away after use is stopped. 

 

I'm also interested in lysine, but I did see a report of kidney failure after use of it, along with multiple toxicity warnings regarding the kidneys and liver. The risk is probably so astronomically low, but since I'm simply experimenting with a amino acids right now (as opposed to taking them for a certain therapeutic effect), I want to stick with the ones with the least amount of toxic reactions attributed to them. I'll probably try taurine next, and maybe carnosine. Both have promising research behind them. I may try Maca soon as well, the Peruvian adaptogenic root, and perhaps rhodiola. 

 

While ashwagandha may be a miracle herb for some, I'm not taking it for my thyroid, and I don't see why the risk is worth it unless you're taking it to help correct a physiological abnormality. There's far less risky things one can take for anxiety or social acuity. 

[jetmango]

fascinating regarding Reishi mushrooms - why you started to take them at the first place btw?

 

well re toxicity of lysine.. it's an aminoacid.. and you'd probably need to eat HUGE doses for like 3-4 years... I doubt there can be any toxicity with reasonable dosing. 

 

After all a typical night out with heavy alcohol intake might have worse impact, no ?

 

I don't feel it has a huge impact/body load - I feel it actually heals me somehow. Unlike ashwagandha or rhodiola - which both gave me that unpleasant feeling that I am on something and my body is not in its natural balanced state - but more like on twisted overdrive (and they suppose to heal, right- so it didn't fit for me)

 

Also - I noticed depression every time I quit rhodiola for a few days. 

[VerdeGo]

The depression could be from downregulation of GABA/serotonin/dopamine. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I only have experience with those two adaptogens, both of them being mushrooms. Maca is next on my list to try, but a word of advice: Get gelatanized (cooked) maca, because the raw root that is most commonly sold contains toxins and has caused several people to experience such abdominal pain that one person passed out for four hours from the pain, and his friend vomited immediately. It could have also been from a tainted batch, but who knows? When I first started researching adaptogens, there was a prerequisite in the definition of "adaptogen" that involved a substance that didn't produce side effects, or if it did, they were minimal. I certainly feel misled, but I have also experienced positive effects from them. But to say they are devoid of any troublesome side effects simply isn't accurate, or I haven't found a true adaptogen yet.

 

The reason I started cordyceps and reishi was because a coworker emphatically told me about them. They had changed his life, and he consumed a tea of cordyceps every day before switching to reishi. I saw him become increasingly hostile in the workplace, and he eventually hit rock bottom, swearing the stuff off. I continued on with cordyceps, and tried reishi out of curiosity. That's when I started to wonder about the whole "intelligence" thing. How can an herb or mushroom be so in tune with each person's body functions that it helps regulates them to normal levels? This sounds otherworldly to me. There is certainly something strange and mysterious about reishi, but my trust factor just isn't there to try it again anytime soon. And cordyceps had no effect on my mood, except to stabilize it. It rather makes me emotionless, like a machine, though I'm full of energy and focus. Reishi took me more for a ride, pulling up past emotions and memories, and making me think outside the box. 

 

I may give lysine a whirl afterall. And you were right, the renal failure was in a woman who took high doses for five years:

 

L-Lysine has been reported to cause Fanconi syndrome and tubulointerstitial nephritis. Fanconi syndrome is impairment in renal proximal tubular function and may lead to acidosis, dehydration, and electrolyte imbalances. It is often treated supportively until the underlying cause is addressed. A single case report identified a 44-yr-old woman who developed Fanconi syndrome and tubulointerstitial nephritis after consuming 3000 mg/d L-lysine for 5 yr. Subsequently, the patient progressed to chronic renal failure (33).

 

Also from the same site regarding confirmed renal failure: Chromium (not fatal), Creatine (fatal due to multisystem organ failure in one case), geranium (probably fatal), Vitamin C (not fatal), cranberry tablets (not fatal), wormwood oil (not fatal), licorice (not fatal), etc.(all regarding the the kidney aspect, but I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of any one of those people involved in these case studies)   http://cjasn.asnjour...nt/2/4/757.full

 

I also found this on Livestrong.com:

 

L-Lysine Warnings Last Updated: Aug 16, 2013

 | By Camira Bailey

Lysine is an amino acid essential to human life. It can be obtained by eating animal protein, eggs, dairy products and beans. If you do not eat much of these foods, you may need to take supplemental lysine, which is often available in the form of L-lysine. L-lysine is generally thought to be safe, but it can be dangerous if you have certain conditions. You should always speak to your doctor before starting supplementation with lysine to avoid potentially problematic conditions and drug interactions.

Gallstone Formation

High doses of lysine have been found to cause gallstones. Lysine can increase your cholesterol. The increase in cholesterol can cause the bile in your gallbladder to retain excessive amounts of cholesterol, which can lead to stone formation. Take caution in using lysine if you have a history of gallstones or if your cholesterol is already high. Gallstones may not cause any symptoms. If they do, you will typically experience nausea, upper right-sided abdominal pain, vomiting and fever. If you develop gallstones, you may need to have your gallbladder removed.

Hypercalcemia

Taking lysine can increase your risk of developing hypercalcemia, abnormally high levels of calcium in the blood. This is especially true if you already take in a significant amount of calcium each day or if you have decreased kidney function. Lysine has been shown to increase the amount of calcium your intestines absorb, according to a review published in the November-December 1992 issue of "Nutrition." To decrease this risk, do not take lysine with a calcium supplement or with dairy products unless you're instructed to do so by your doctor. Consult your doctor immediately if you experience nausea, vomiting, flank or bone pain, muscle weakness or memory loss, as these are symptoms of hypercalcemia.

Kidney Disease

Lysine has been linked to kidney failure, so do not take it if you have impaired kidney function. Large doses of lysine and other amino acids may induce acute kidney failure even in healthy individuals, according to a review published in the June 2007 issue of "The Journal of Nutrition." Symptoms of acute kidney failure may include pain between the hip and ribs, a decrease in the amount of urine you're excreting, intractable nausea and vomiting, and bloody stools. Seek immediate help if you develop these symptoms while taking lysine.

Given that these issues mostly appear with large doses of amino acids, including lysine, it's apparent that one should not take large doses and observe the "everything in moderation" rule, even when it comes to Mother Nature. The risk seems minimal, however, but it's best to be aware of any risk when putting any foreign substance (including food) into the body.

 

What is a good "maintenance dose" of lysine, or how much do you take? I haven't studied the dosing yet. I've also heard about people using it with arginine. Can you shed some light on your own experiences with lysine? 

 

[HoldingTheFaith]

One of the few effects I sensed from doses as high as 15 grams of Withania root was that my body temperature was unusually higher at night. I am positive it stimulates the thyroid, as many studies echo.

 

The only other rather useless effect was thicker, whiter seminal fluid... 

 

To the idiot that "off-topiced" all my last posts and those of others... That was pathetic. Nothing in this thread is "off-topic" we are trying to get better, not focus on one single herb. If a productive discussion on health can happen, let it be. You have not been around much on health boards if going "off-topic" seems so unusual and harmful for you.

 

Reishi didn´t do fig for me, Cordyceps on the other hand is good stuff. Erection-enhancing, pulmonary-super-booster! On my list of things to take when I have spare money.

Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 20 April 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[Chris_T_Malta]

One of the few effects I sensed from doses as high as 15 grams of Withania root was that my body temperature was unusually higher at night. I am positive it stimulates the thyroid, as many studies echo.

 

 

 

 

I noticed a considerable increase in hunger during the 2 weeks of Ashwagandha intake - could be linked to thyroid stimulation too. 

 

I have checked for hyperthyroidism symptoms and in these 2 weeks I experienced rapid heartbeat (once), significantly increased appetite (sometimes I ate even twice what I usually eat - since then hunger seems to have gone down), anxiety, significant acceleration of bowel movements (2/3 times a day - compared to the usual once or max twice). Significant fatigue (productivity went down dramatically) weakness and bad weight-lifting performance.

 

So Ashwagandha can cure whoever suffers from anxiety which is derived from hypo-thyroidism but can be dangerous for who suffers from hyper-thyroidism. 

 

Initially I thought that my productivity decline was due to lack of anxiety produced by ASH but now I think it was caused by increased fatigue as a side-effect of hyperthyroidism.

[jetmango]

The depression could be from downregulation of GABA/serotonin/dopamine. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I only have experience with those two adaptogens, both of them being mushrooms. Maca is next on my list to try, but a word of advice: Get gelatanized (cooked) maca, because the raw root that is most commonly sold contains toxins and has caused several people to experience such abdominal pain that one person passed out for four hours from the pain, and his friend vomited immediately. It could have also been from a tainted batch, but who knows? When I first started researching adaptogens, there was a prerequisite in the definition of "adaptogen" that involved a substance that didn't produce side effects, or if it did, they were minimal. I certainly feel misled, but I have also experienced positive effects from them. But to say they are devoid of any troublesome side effects simply isn't accurate, or I haven't found a true adaptogen yet.

 

The reason I started cordyceps and reishi was because a coworker emphatically told me about them. They had changed his life, and he consumed a tea of cordyceps every day before switching to reishi. I saw him become increasingly hostile in the workplace, and he eventually hit rock bottom, swearing the stuff off. I continued on with cordyceps, and tried reishi out of curiosity. That's when I started to wonder about the whole "intelligence" thing. How can an herb or mushroom be so in tune with each person's body functions that it helps regulates them to normal levels? This sounds otherworldly to me. There is certainly something strange and mysterious about reishi, but my trust factor just isn't there to try it again anytime soon. And cordyceps had no effect on my mood, except to stabilize it. It rather makes me emotionless, like a machine, though I'm full of energy and focus. Reishi took me more for a ride, pulling up past emotions and memories, and making me think outside the box. 

 

I may give lysine a whirl afterall. And you were right, the renal failure was in a woman who took high doses for five years:

 

L-Lysine has been reported to cause Fanconi syndrome and tubulointerstitial nephritis. Fanconi syndrome is impairment in renal proximal tubular function and may lead to acidosis, dehydration, and electrolyte imbalances. It is often treated supportively until the underlying cause is addressed. A single case report identified a 44-yr-old woman who developed Fanconi syndrome and tubulointerstitial nephritis after consuming 3000 mg/d L-lysine for 5 yr. Subsequently, the patient progressed to chronic renal failure (33).

 

Also from the same site regarding confirmed renal failure: Chromium (not fatal), Creatine (fatal due to multisystem organ failure in one case), geranium (probably fatal), Vitamin C (not fatal), cranberry tablets (not fatal), wormwood oil (not fatal), licorice (not fatal), etc.(all regarding the the kidney aspect, but I wouldn't want to be in the shoes of any one of those people involved in these case studies)   http://cjasn.asnjour...nt/2/4/757.full

 

I also found this on Livestrong.com:

 

L-Lysine Warnings Last Updated: Aug 16, 2013

 | By Camira Bailey

Lysine is an amino acid essential to human life. It can be obtained by eating animal protein, eggs, dairy products and beans. If you do not eat much of these foods, you may need to take supplemental lysine, which is often available in the form of L-lysine. L-lysine is generally thought to be safe, but it can be dangerous if you have certain conditions. You should always speak to your doctor before starting supplementation with lysine to avoid potentially problematic conditions and drug interactions.

Gallstone Formation

High doses of lysine have been found to cause gallstones. Lysine can increase your cholesterol. The increase in cholesterol can cause the bile in your gallbladder to retain excessive amounts of cholesterol, which can lead to stone formation. Take caution in using lysine if you have a history of gallstones or if your cholesterol is already high. Gallstones may not cause any symptoms. If they do, you will typically experience nausea, upper right-sided abdominal pain, vomiting and fever. If you develop gallstones, you may need to have your gallbladder removed.

Hypercalcemia

Taking lysine can increase your risk of developing hypercalcemia, abnormally high levels of calcium in the blood. This is especially true if you already take in a significant amount of calcium each day or if you have decreased kidney function. Lysine has been shown to increase the amount of calcium your intestines absorb, according to a review published in the November-December 1992 issue of "Nutrition." To decrease this risk, do not take lysine with a calcium supplement or with dairy products unless you're instructed to do so by your doctor. Consult your doctor immediately if you experience nausea, vomiting, flank or bone pain, muscle weakness or memory loss, as these are symptoms of hypercalcemia.

Kidney Disease

Lysine has been linked to kidney failure, so do not take it if you have impaired kidney function. Large doses of lysine and other amino acids may induce acute kidney failure even in healthy individuals, according to a review published in the June 2007 issue of "The Journal of Nutrition." Symptoms of acute kidney failure may include pain between the hip and ribs, a decrease in the amount of urine you're excreting, intractable nausea and vomiting, and bloody stools. Seek immediate help if you develop these symptoms while taking lysine.

Given that these issues mostly appear with large doses of amino acids, including lysine, it's apparent that one should not take large doses and observe the "everything in moderation" rule, even when it comes to Mother Nature. The risk seems minimal, however, but it's best to be aware of any risk when putting any foreign substance (including food) into the body.

 

What is a good "maintenance dose" of lysine, or how much do you take? I haven't studied the dosing yet. I've also heard about people using it with arginine. Can you shed some light on your own experiences with lysine? 

 

well I guess everything in excess taken for longer time will produce some toxicity... it's just common sense. Five years is a very very long time.

 

I am taking 500-1000mg as a casual dose, sometimes I skip days when I don't feel the need - if the day is really stressful I can up-dose to 3000-4000 mg without any side effects day after.

 

I must admit when I started to take it I was more sensitive to it, which balanced itself out after circa 3-4 weeks. 

[Sol23]

 

Cordyceps still makes me nervous to take because its action is so complex and not fully understood, but it's saved me from very bad situations in the past and quieted all my physical symptoms.

 

What kind of physical symptoms do you mean?

 

Also - can you elaborate a little bit on Reishi mushrooms?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While ashwagandha may be a miracle herb for some, I'm not taking it for my thyroid, and I don't see why the risk is worth it unless you're taking it to help correct a physiological abnormality. There's far less risky things one can take for anxiety or social acuity. 

 

Well, herbs can be beneficial for some, but not for all. There is no evidence proves that ashwagandha causes hyperthyroidism at low/normal doses in humans. Anecdotal reports show an increase in thyroid hormones but I don't think there is a clear hyperthyroidism diagnosis. Anyhow, cycling and temperarture control should be considered for new folks that plan to take this herb.

 

What other less risky things are you referring to(except mushrooms)?

[VerdeGo]

By less risky, I was referring to other life extension chemicals, mainly taurine and carnosine. Though we'll leave carnosine at the doorstep for now, since not enough human research has been done on this molecule, though animal studies are promising, and it's just starting to hit the store shelves as a promising amino acid. 

 

I've spent hours browsing experience reports of taurine online, along with some abstracts. I honestly can't find anything bad about the stuff. It helps protect the retina, and some people report better vision while on it. It's also highly consumed in Okinawa, which contains supposedly the greatest concentration of centenarians on the planet. It can help prevent diabetes. It can not only stop but reverse liver disease, it greatly reduces alcohol (and possibly other GABAergic substances) withdrawal, it can reverse cardiovascular disease factors, regulates excitability of neurotransmitters, extends life span in animal studies, stop tinnitus (perhaps useful if one is experiencing tinnitus from racetams), reduces seizures, and much, much more. I'd rather not get technical at this point and lambaste you with abstracts, studies, experience reports, and references unless we're going to start a new thread on taurine, or a thread on amino acids in general (which I'd like to see, because I think a lot of people's issues could be solved by simply working with amino acids first, and resorting to less studied drugs as a last resort). Of course, taurine isn't truly an amino acid because it lacks a carboxyl group, but it's one of the most abundant pseudo-aminos in the body, and as we age, production goes down. Apparently it converts to GABA and increases dopamine as well (much like theanine, another "generally recognized as safe" amino acid which mostly acts on the brain, with less protective effects on the body as a whole). I've read taurine can be quite relaxing, and can be used for sleep as well. It's found in energy drinks to negate the effects of caffeine, and to take the edge off, though the dose is too low for any therapeutic benefit. For this reason some users have reported better social functioning and far less anxiety and stress in general, though tolerance (as with anything good), may develop after five months of continuous use (according to one user). If you're suffering from anxiety and stress, taurine, l-theanine, and l-lysine seem to all be the best fit (and perhaps some l-phenylalanine too, cycled. Phenyl is a known endorphin booster).

 

That is why I'll be using taurine before ASH, rhodiola, or maca. Not because of all the studies on its benefits, but from the lack of negative experiences I've found online. Plus it's more widely consumed than ASH or other adapts. 

 

From WebMD:

 

Taurine has been used safely in adults in studies lasting up to one year. It has been given safely to children for up to 4 months. People enrolled in research studies have not reported any side effects connected with the use of taurine. However, there is one report of brain damage in a body-builder who took about 14 grams of taurine in combination with insulin and anabolic steroids. It is not known if this was due to the taurine or the other drugs taken.

 

The only known interaction is with lithium. So given its safety profile, its alleged benefits on long term health, its abundant use across the world, and the lack of negative side effects, I'd say this may qualify as an adaptogen itself, but research is still early on how well it helps anxiety and the body's response to stress. But research is certainly pointing to it extending your life and protecting against disease, which is why I'll be trying it very soon.

 

Of course there's a study saying rhodiola increases the life span of fruit flies by over 20%. And l-carnosine also has very promising life-extending properties in animal studies, matching or exceeding those of rhodiola.  

 

@Holding: As far as cordyceps, I took some today. I drank two glasses of wine last night, and I experienced horrible sleep. I took an extract with a bowl of oatmeal for breakfast, and felt more energized and motivated. The usual stressors didn't affect me, and the day went smoothly. I took another, smaller dose with lunch, like I usually do when I take cordyceps (with black beans and rice this time, to increase serotonin), and it helped me get through the rest of the day with ease. With reishi, redosing makes me feel very weird. And one of the biggest benefits I've seen with cordyceps is with libido - perhaps not instantaneous, but roughly a week-long raise in libido, so I can relate. 

 

@Chris: This is exactly what concerns me about ASH. Most other adaptogens I've researched supposedly modulate the thyroid, not stimulate it. When I take cordyceps roughly once a week, I feel invigorated. However if I take it daily, or too often, I feel an unnatural stimulation and get weird "jolts" in my head. But in all honesty, I have no idea why, so I use cordyceps sparingly. I think the recommended daily intake listed on supplement bottles are BS. I think they're trying to get you to go through the bottle as quickly as possible so you can re-order the stuff. From my own experience, mushroom adaptogens (and probably others) should be taken on an as-needed basis, or spaced out a bit. With so much not yet known (for instance, why so many people experience negative, contradicting reactions to them), it's best to keep them in moderation.

 

@mangosa: Lysine also sounds promising, and I plan to look into that next. 

[Chris_T_Malta]

I think I'll give taurine a try and then supplement with ash periodically, in periods of high stress.

 

Any brands you would recommend? I am always worried that when I buy supplements, I end up buying junk.

 

 

[Godof Smallthings]

Brand recommendations for cordyceps, please. I have used Fungi Perfecti and they were absolutely excellent in terms of energy and mood support, but pricey. If somebody has found good effects with a less expensive brand I'd be all over it.

[VerdeGo]

Try Aloha Medicinals for cordyceps. I paid about $15 on Amazon. Its one of the more potent extracts out there, but it's good stuff, and it's worth the price for me. It's also lab produced in the US, and their quality control seems top notch.

As for taurine, I can't recommend a brand yet until I try it. I bought 1000mg caps from Amazing Nutrition on Amazon, cost me only $10 with shipping. Most taurine supplements contain vitamin b6, which helps synthesize it. Since i'm somewhat sensitive to b6, I'll be trying taurine by itself at first, and the capsules I have only contain taurine by itself. I'll let you know how it goes.

[HoldingTheFaith]

Brand recommendations for cordyceps, please. I have used Fungi Perfecti and they were absolutely excellent in terms of energy and mood support, but pricey. If somebody has found good effects with a less expensive brand I'd be all over it.

 

I had good effects from Mycetobotanicals, erectile-wise at least. The pulmonary benefits of Hyperion Herbs Cordyceps were more pronounced.

 

Aloha Medicinals was totally worthless for me.

Edited by HoldingTheFaith, 21 April 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[Chris_T_Malta]

As for taurine, I can't recommend a brand yet until I try it. I bought 1000mg caps from Amazing Nutrition on Amazon, cost me only $10 with shipping. Most taurine supplements contain vitamin b6, which helps synthesize it. Since i'm somewhat sensitive to b6, I'll be trying taurine by itself at first, and the capsules I have only contain taurine by itself. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

Unfortunately, Amazon does not sell that in Europe. Through uk.iherb.com, they are offering Taurine products by Now and Jarrow, I believe both brands have buyers in this forum. Any suggestions re: brands? This is the link of available brands on iHerb.com (http://uk.iherb.com/...?kw=Taurine#p=1) 

 

As regards Ashwaganda, this is my 3rd day free of ASH and I can report the following:

 

1) Weight-lifting - Considerably improved despite I had a blood test this morning and I trained really late (9.30PM)

2) Regularity - No longer that regular.

3) Mood - Anxiety is more pronounced but I feel I have more energy to tackle it.

4) Hunger - Back to normal levels - managed to spend a whole morning with just an egg, some salmon trimmings and various vegetables. When I tried this with ASH last week I was getting ferociously hungry.

 

I can conclude that ASH did have some effect on me and despite these seem to be overly negative; I plan to retry it with a smaller dose in the future. I think it's effect was lighter than what Rhodiala did to me. When I took Rhodiala the first time I couldn't sleep and felt very hot (increased thyroid function?) despite it was cold in the room and my gf was feeling cold. Usually I am the one who feels cold. 

 

I think Rhodiala and ASH have similar effects on me, with the former having a stronger effect than the latter.

[jetmango]

Taurine was promising for me at first but somehow it increased stomach acid so much that it was painful.

 

for me slight overdose caused too much sleepiness to take it during the day - l-lysine tops it up for me.