120 replies to this topic

[rwac]

The pet owners either receive oil or C60+oil: they don't know. s123 is the only one to know.

The color difference would make it obvious.

[Hebbeh]

The pet owners either receive oil or C60+oil: they don't know. s123 is the only one to know.

The color difference would make it obvious.

Good point. Put some type of inert food color in each? Kind of like green beer on St Pat's day?

[smithx]

I live in the best olive producing area in the United States - the North central valley of California (...) if you guys want to source some oil, I would be happy to mix a batch.

Here is a proposed way of functioning:

- Someone sends the oil to Carbon; say for example s123 (as he was proposing to handle the mixtures for Mprize at home)

I agree with this, as long as s123 or whomever keeps an equal quantity of the same oil to use as the placebo.

Carbon should have nothing to do with the placebos.

[smithx]

The pet owners either receive oil or C60+oil: they don't know. s123 is the only one to know.

The color difference would make it obvious.

Please see my suggested protocol in post # 26 of this thread.

I cover that issue, as well as many other important issues.

[Mind]

What is the volume of oil that is needed to dose one rat in a similar manner to the Baati study? Just trying to get an estimate of shipping costs? What kind-of container would be used for shipping?

So what about controls? Since the C60 is supposed to be so miraculous (extending rat life beyond any substance or method previously known) and most pet owners are not rigorous scientists (leaving open the possibility of massive failures before the study is finished), I proposed we go without controls, but I know that would be frowned upon in the scientific community. If we do go with controls, then shouldn't we dye the regular (control) olive oil with some dark reddish pigment? In order to make the study "blind" for the pet owners.

[smithx]

What is the volume of oil that is needed to dose one rat in a similar manner to the Baati study? Just trying to get an estimate of shipping costs? What kind-of container would be used for shipping?

So what about controls? Since the C60 is supposed to be so miraculous (extending rat life beyond any substance or method previously known) and most pet owners are not rigorous scientists (leaving open the possibility of massive failures before the study is finished), I proposed we go without controls, but I know that would be frowned upon in the scientific community. If we do go with controls, then shouldn't we dye the regular (control) olive oil with some dark reddish pigment? In order to make the study "blind" for the pet owners.

Please do re-read my suggested protocol in post #26. I covered this:

We need a control substance which looks exactly like the test substance, or as close as possible. Experimenting with food coloring and olive oil should allow this to be created.

And yes, we do need a placebo controlled test. The ability of pet owners to mess up the results will be drastically reduced if we only provide each pet owner with EITHER the placebo OR the sample, so they can't inadvertently or on purpose mix them up.

Again, this is all covered in post # 26.

Edited by smithx, 15 July 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[Mind]

Hey smithx...so for not reading your prior post more carefully (and being frustratingly redundant). You have outlined everything quite well.

If S123 agrees to be the trustee and mail out the samples that would be fine by me. My only concern would be shipping costs, to and from Europe. If most of the pet owners are from North America then we could save a little by having a trustee in the U.S. - but perhaps the extra cost is negligible.

One minor thing, I would want a back-up copy of the master list of C60 vs. Placebo samples besides only residing with S123. Maybe he could encrypt the document, give the key to one member and have a different member store the document locally on a disk.

[Mind]

I sent a message to the owner of the "Rat Fan Club". I let you know when and if I get a response.

Hi Debbie:

My name is Justin Loew. I am the chief meteorologist at WAOW-TV in Wausau Wisconsin and I also help lead a non-profit organization called Longecity. The mission of Longecity is to help cure all the diseases associated with aging and extend healthy human lifespan.

A recent toxicity study involving rats showed that feeding them a mixture of carbon-60 (aka buckyballs) and olive oil extended their lives dramatically. The rats (Wistar Rats) that were fed a normal diet lived a little over 2 years. The rats that were fed the carbon 60+olive oil lived a little over 4 years. This is of course very eye-opening. Previously there were no known substances/diets that could double the lifespans of rats. The one problem with the study is that there were only a small number of rats used, so it makes the study a little questionable.

Longecity members thought that we should try to replicate the study. One possible way to do this is to contact pet rat owners and see if any of them would like to feed the mixture to their pets in the effort to help them live healthy for a longer period of time. One of our members has already done this with his 3 pet rats and they are doing well. It would be nice to get maybe a few dozen other people conducting the experiment. As far as past research has shown, there are no known toxic side effects from the mixture.

So I was wondering what the best way to contact pet rat owners would be. Do you have a particular online forum where I could make a post describing the experiment and see if any pet rat owners would be interested? Besides the Rat Fan Club, are there any other online pet rat forums that you could recommend?

Edited by Mind, 15 July 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[s123]

Hey smithx...so for not reading your prior post more carefully (and being frustratingly redundant). You have outlined everything quite well.

If S123 agrees to be the trustee and mail out the samples that would be fine by me. My only concern would be shipping costs, to and from Europe. If most of the pet owners are from North America then we could save a little by having a trustee in the U.S. - but perhaps the extra cost is negligible.

One minor thing, I would want a back-up copy of the master list of C60 vs. Placebo samples besides only residing with S123. Maybe he could encrypt the document, give the key to one member and have a different member store the document locally on a disk.

Yes, I certainly want to help out. Yes, another person should have a copy of the document + key. If we want to do it properly we should send all participants the exact same olive oil and concentration of C60 i.e. all from the same mix. What could be done to save money is me sending all of the North American samples to one person who then sends them to all North American participants.

[AgeVivo]

I have met a rat fan club in south of France once. I am going to contact them.

[Logic]

The average lifespan of rats is known.
ie: n=infinity (almost)
For rats on C60oo; n=6...

I dont know that rat owners are going to take well to being BSd (in their opinion) when treating their beloved pets to a longer life.
There will also be almost no control over dosage and frequency of dosage etc.

Also things get unnecessarily complicated with controls and trying to make fake C60oo that looks the same over time.

[AgeVivo]

Indeed we can see with rat lovers if they look interested or not -- if some are interested then we can see if they want to test c60 or be part of the double-blind test or not. No forcing.

Otherwise, the best way to go nowhere is to do nothing

Edited by AgeVivo, 15 July 2012 - 03:12 PM.

[Mind]

The average lifespan of rats is known.
ie: n=infinity (almost)
For rats on C60oo; n=6...

I dont know that rat owners are going to take well to being BSd (in their opinion) when treating their beloved pets to a longer life.
There will also be almost no control over dosage and frequency of dosage etc.

Also things get unnecessarily complicated with controls and trying to make fake C60oo that looks the same over time.

There is not going to be any BS going on. We are just going to find out if there are any pet owners interested. We can screen them to see if they are willing and capable. Those willing to share pictures/video/documentation would get first dibs on free C60oo. If the only expense we have is buying the C60 and olive oil and then shipping it, it seems like cheap/interesting project.

[Mind]

If Longecity is going to spearhead this project I suppose it is time to find out if the members/Board is in support. Longecity has small grants of $500 available this year, which should be at least enough to get things started.

Edited by Mind, 15 July 2012 - 08:16 PM.

[rwac]

The pet owners either receive oil or C60+oil: they don't know. s123 is the only one to know.

The color difference would make it obvious.

Please see my suggested protocol in post # 26 of this thread.

I cover that issue, as well as many other important issues.

I guess I missed that, thanks!

[eternaltraveler]

It doesn't seem like it would need to cost all that much, but it would take a committed person to run it.

thats exactly it.

My question directed broadly; why don't some of you people that are already willing to risk your lives by putting this stuff in your body on purpose spend a tiny portion of your lifetime on doing this work? The best possible outcome would be learning some heathly cynicism and potentially transforming into good scientists as a result.

If you do so please use appropriate controls. Keep in mine one of the first winners of the methuselah mouse prize was a single mouse that lived greatly beyond its normal lifespan just because it was played with and given an enriched environment (it lived 1551 days, more than 4 years). If you give c60 to your pet mouse or rat and also take good care of it and play with it and it happens to live a long time you will have absolutely no idea if c60 did anything besides not being overtly toxic to your pet rodent (which doesn't mean it won't be overtly toxic to you).

[Logic]

There is not going to be any BS going on. We are just going to find out if there are any pet owners interested. We can screen them to see if they are willing and capable. Those willing to share pictures/video/documentation would get first dibs on free C60oo. If the only expense we have is buying the C60 and olive oil and then shipping it, it seems like cheap/interesting project.

What I meant was that an owner thinking they are going to double the life a of a beloved pet may feel cheated if they get placibo and said pet/s live a normal lifespan. Not knowing is an essential part of double blind placebo controlled studies right?

As the normal lifespan is well known; is it necessary to have controlls?
Especially as test has no chance of being published and is more of a quick way of confirming life extension by C60oo. (increasing n from 6 to....)

[niner]

Otherwise, the best way to go nowhere is to do nothing

Or, instead of investing money and energy into a bunch of random pet rats, each in a different environment, of different age and species, we could do a high quality, well-controlled (and publishable) mouse study. AgeVivo, since you are already running a mouse study, what if Longecity were to fund whatever you needed to expand the study to a reasonable size? Because the magnitude of the effect that Baati reported was so large, we don't need a large number of animals to overcome the effects of random chance. What we do need to do is simply run an experiment in a different facility in order to change the nature of any systematic error that may be present. I would certainly support the expenditure of LongeCity funds on such a project, if you're interested.

[smithx]

Keep in mine one of the first winners of the methuselah mouse prize was a single mouse that lived greatly beyond its normal lifespan just because it was played with and given an enriched environment (it lived 1551 days, more than 4 years). If you give c60 to your pet mouse or rat and also take good care of it and play with it and it happens to live a long time you will have absolutely no idea if c60 did anything besides not being overtly toxic to your pet rodent (which doesn't mean it won't be overtly toxic to you).

That problem is easily eliminated by:

1) Doing a placebo controlled test
2) Having a large enough sample size

[eternaltraveler]

Keep in mine one of the first winners of the methuselah mouse prize was a single mouse that lived greatly beyond its normal lifespan just because it was played with and given an enriched environment (it lived 1551 days, more than 4 years). If you give c60 to your pet mouse or rat and also take good care of it and play with it and it happens to live a long time you will have absolutely no idea if c60 did anything besides not being overtly toxic to your pet rodent (which doesn't mean it won't be overtly toxic to you).

That problem is easily eliminated by:

1) Doing a placebo controlled test
2) Having a large enough sample size

that was my point, yes.

If anyone wants to do this study I am happy to advise on how/where to get rodents/animal husbandry etc. feel free to pm me.

Edited by eternaltraveler, 16 July 2012 - 03:56 AM.

[smithx]

that was my point, yes.

If anyone wants to do this study I am happy to advise on how/where to get rodents/animal husbandry etc. feel free to pm me.

I think a mouse study would be a great idea, if someone would be willing to do one.

But my point was that the existing concept of doing a study with pet owners would also work fine, if it were a placebo controlled test with a sufficient sample size.

[eternaltraveler]

that was my point, yes.

If anyone wants to do this study I am happy to advise on how/where to get rodents/animal husbandry etc. feel free to pm me.

I think a mouse study would be a great idea, if someone would be willing to do one.

But my point was that the existing concept of doing a study with pet owners would also work fine, if it were a placebo controlled test with a sufficient sample size.

what niner said in the other thread. although I would use a larger sample size because the costs of doing so are trivial and it would be a better study

[eternaltraveler]

we don't need a large number of animals to overcome the effects of random chance

the costs of a decent number of animals are trivial. You might want to use mice instead of rats anyway which makes it even more trivial so you can see if the effect, if there is one at all, isn't some wisar rat strain anomaly like calorie restriction seems to be an anomaly of some rodent strains.

[Turnbuckle]

My question directed broadly; why don't some of you people that are already willing to risk your lives by putting this stuff in your body on purpose spend a tiny portion of your lifetime on doing this work? The best possible outcome would be learning some heathly cynicism and potentially transforming into good scientists as a result.

You don't get published with a rat study and then become a good scientist, you have to be one already. As for anyone spending years raising rats to prove that the latest supplement they're taking is indeed better than the last one they took, I don't see that happening.

[eternaltraveler]

You don't get published with a rat study and then become a good scientist, you have to be one already.

You become a good scientist by being a cynical bastard. Something that can be greatly nurtured by seeing that things that seem to be too good to be true almost always are with your own eyes.

Anyone can get published. Its even easier if you actually have data.

As for anyone spending years raising rats to prove that the latest supplement they're taking is indeed better than the last one they took, I don't see that happening.

yes I already understand that most people who ingest piles of untested chemicals lack the judgement to understand that their chances of impacting their own lives positively would be far higher if they were actually willing to do work to find out what the hell will actually help them. However that will only be true for the vast majority; the vanishingly small minority that instead begins to take their first steps toward becoming competent longevity researchers may be the ones that end up saving my life, and yours.

Edited by eternaltraveler, 17 July 2012 - 12:35 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

Anyone can get published. Its even easier if you actually have data.

It depends what you mean by published. If you want to get published by a scholarly journal and indexed on pubmed, then not anyone can get published. And if you've run a rat study in your home and you don't have the appropriate degrees, the scientific world will never take you seriously. The best alternative in that case is to file a patent application. There aren't any scholarly requirements for that, yet it will be published by the government.

[maxwatt]

There are many journals indexed by pubmed that will publish anything following the proper format, even if your degree is from UCLA (the University of the Corner of Lenox Avenue.)

[sthira]

...even if your degree is from UCLA (the University of the Corner of Lenox Avenue.)

UCLA~University of Causasians Lost among Asians

[Turnbuckle]

There are many journals indexed by pubmed that will publish anything following the proper format, even if your degree is from UCLA (the University of the Corner of Lenox Avenue.)

Do you know of one that would publish the mice or chicken studies?

[Mind]

Otherwise, the best way to go nowhere is to do nothing

Or, instead of investing money and energy into a bunch of random pet rats, each in a different environment, of different age and species, we could do a high quality, well-controlled (and publishable) mouse study. AgeVivo, since you are already running a mouse study, what if Longecity were to fund whatever you needed to expand the study to a reasonable size? Because the magnitude of the effect that Baati reported was so large, we don't need a large number of animals to overcome the effects of random chance. What we do need to do is simply run an experiment in a different facility in order to change the nature of any systematic error that may be present. I would certainly support the expenditure of LongeCity funds on such a project, if you're interested.

We can do both studies (pet rats vs controlled environment), because it is a cheap experiment, even with dozens of rats.

Please remember that Longecity is a community. Anything we can do to build a community around radical life extension is worthy of looking into. A citizen scientist experiment like this could produce many unanticipated benefits for Longecity. People will learn about Longecity. People will learn about the scientific method. People will learn about the very hard work it will take to cure aging. If the experiment is cheap (which it seems to be), and there are willing pet rat owners, then we should pursue it, IMO.

Having random pet rats at different ages/species might prove interesting/valuable in some manner we don't fully understand at the present. Also, pet owners with aged rats might be willing to try other potential life extension methods/substances in the future. Instead of the rats just dying, they could provide more insights into aging.