526 replies to this topic

[AgeVivo]

images from Sunday when feeding the mice. it seems they start loosing some hair. tenous effects though. they still look good, play around and are active.
 b_210113.JPG   132.15KB   26 downloads  bw_210113.JPG   121.89KB   25 downloads

[Chupo]

images from Sunday when feeding the mice. it seems they start loosing some hair. tenous effects though. they still look good, play around and are active.
 b_210113.JPG   132.15KB   26 downloads  bw_210113.JPG   121.89KB   25 downloads

Have you gotten any more C60oo to feed them?

[AgeVivo]

Chupoman, yes. The researchers gave me c60oo today and last week I had used the last drops I had.
Tonight as usual I changed the cage without putting food for the night, the mice are playing together, curious, reactive, looking very good (not looking old; stephen_b I did lab reseach in many young and old mice 10-12 years old, and my 2 mice do not look old). With time I get more and more convinced that something is happening. Of course it is only 2 mice from a non known strain, so for now it could be luck. If I have time I'll post videos tomorrow

[Danail Bulgaria]

AgeVivo, is it possible Your mice to be some of these strains?






WB/ReJ Kit^W/J Strain

Citings from:
http://jaxmice.jax.o...ain/000692.html

Appearance
diluted black with white belly spot, occasionally has white head blaze, tail has white tip, affected

Mutant Strain; Spontaneous Mutation;

Related Genotype
This strain is homozygous for the retinal degeneration allele Pde6b

An image of the mouse:
http://jaxmice.jax.o...e/000692_lg.jpg






C57BL/6J strain

Citings from:

http://jaxmice.jax.o...ain/000664.html

widely used inbred strain

Appearance
black

This strain is homozygous for Cdh23^ahl

Image:
http://jaxmice.jax.o...e/000664_lg.jpg







C57BL/6NJ Strain

Citings from:
http://jaxmice.jax.o...ain/005304.html

Type Inbred Strain;

Appearance
black

Image:
http://jaxmice.jax.o...e/005304_lg.jpg









BTBR T⁺ Itpr3^tf/J Strain

http://jaxmice.jax.o...ain/002282.html










C57BL/10SnJ Strain

http://jaxmice.jax.o...ain/000666.html

Appearance
black

one of the most widely used inbred strains









C57BLKS/J Strain

http://jaxmice.jax.o...ain/000662.html

Appearance
black

This strain is homozygous for Cdh23<sup>ahl










NZB/BlNJ Strain

http://jaxmice.jax.o...ain/000684.html

Another black strain, simmilar to Your mice (according to me)</sup>

[stephen_b]

Thanks AgeVivo.

[AgeVivo]

February 27th (last week)
 2mice270213.JPG   53.58KB   23 downloads  bb270213.JPG   128.94KB   27 downloads  bw270213.JPG   27.72KB   26 downloads
Today (March 3rd)
 2mice030213.JPG   156.67KB   24 downloads  bb030213.JPG   113.02KB   25 downloads  bw030213.JPG   50.78KB   22 downloads
26 month old and very nice looking

AgeVivo, is it possible Your mice to be some of these strains?

thank you, no, in Europe animals sold to the public are 'wild' rather than from a lab strain.

Edited by AgeVivo, 03 February 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[PWAIN]

Pretty sure it is February, not March.

[AgeVivo]

He, yes. January 27th, February 3rd.

[aaaaaaal]

AgeVivo, looking from the pictures, your mice seem to have no grey hair. Do mice as this age normally have grey hair?

[YOLF]

Is this topic ongoing? How are the mice?

[AgeVivo]

Hehe, an open logbook can't let one rest ;-). The mice are doing well and are still vivid, playing with each other, coming see what is happening when I approach the cage, etc. They still climbing from time to time, but week after week not so much. I need to post the pictures from last week-end (on an other computer). The mouse with the white belly continues to get slightly bigger. The backs start to show minor deformations (but it is not so obvious) and the hair starts to be slightly less shiny (though it is very slim; no the mice I had in the past to don't end up with grey hair, except perhaps very locally when one looks precisely such as close to the ears; rather their hair was becoming more sparse and really less nice).
Here are pictures from yesterday before the cage change:  2mice_240213.JPG   53.72KB   12 downloads  2miceb_240213.JPG   93.69KB   17 downloads
Here are pictures from today during the treatment:  b_250213.JPG   65.53KB   22 downloads  bw_250213.JPG   45.37KB   18 downloads
(here the mouse with a white belly looks particularly large but it is exagerated by its position in an angle of the cage).

Edited by AgeVivo, 25 February 2013 - 12:05 AM.

[YOLF]

glad to see the mice are doing well. It's hard to tell from the old pics whether their ears have lost color, have they always been so light?

[motorcitykid]

Hehe, an open logbook can't let one rest ;-). The mice are doing well and are still vivid, playing with each other, coming see what is happening when I approach the cage, etc. They still climbing from time to time, but week after week not so much. I need to post the pictures from last week-end (on an other computer). The mouse with the white belly continues to get slightly bigger. The backs start to show minor deformations (but it is not so obvious) and the hair starts to be slightly less shiny (though it is very slim; no the mice I had in the past to don't end up with grey hair, except perhaps very locally when one looks precisely such as close to the ears; rather their hair was becoming more sparse and really less nice).
Here are pictures from yesterday before the cage change:  2mice_240213.JPG   53.72KB   12 downloads  2miceb_240213.JPG   93.69KB   17 downloads
Here are pictures from today during the treatment:  b_250213.JPG   65.53KB   22 downloads  bw_250213.JPG   45.37KB   18 downloads
(here the mouse with a white belly looks particularly large but it is exagerated by its position in an angle of the cage).

It doesn't sound like the mice are doing all THAT well. I understand they're pet store mice and not bred for expirimental purposes, but still. Big white belly, deformations, thinning hair. From evertything I read here, it sounds like the pet store mice are old and degenerating at a normal pace(roughly). the point is, it doesn't seem like anything dramatic is going on here. That's worrisome and it makes me question the validity of Bahti's expirement.

Edited by motorcitykid, 26 February 2013 - 05:40 PM.

[Mind]

Of course, this is not a replication of the original study. Most people here are aware of the limitations with home experimentation. There will not be too much statistically valid scientific information procured, but we will definitely learn something. Something is better than nothing while the world waits to see if/when another robust C60oo life extension study is conducted.

Thanks to AgeVivo for running this experiment!

[YOLF]

I don't think he was saying his mice had deformations and thinning hair, just that one was getting chubby and they were slowing down week after week, so they aren't as active. These were old mice to begin with, but I can't see any more back arching than they had initially. I wouldn't put down the Bahti study just yet, I'd wait to hear from Crevetterbelle's participation, and there is at least one more large pet cohort of rats participating. We need to know if the rats started at younger ages survive longer or indefinitely before we will know if the Bahti study is accurate. The study came from a reputable source, I'm not going to doubt it until it's thoroughly disproven.

I don't think he was saying his mice had deformations and thinning hair, just that one was getting chubby and they were slowing down week after week, so they aren't as active. These were old mice to begin with, but I can't see any more back arching than they had initially. I wouldn't put down the Bahti study just yet, I'd wait to hear from Crevetterbelle's participation, and there is at least one more large pet cohort of rats participating. We need to know if the rats started at younger ages survive longer or indefinitely before we will know if the Bahti study is accurate. The study came from a reputable source, I'm not going to doubt it until it's thoroughly disproven.

[YOLF]

Not to mention, our participation may spur others to action. We're helping to determine whether there is a reason for the financial risk of running a large study IMO. I'm sure there are lots of studies that may look more profitable than what, in the eyes of many, could be a fluke.

[motorcitykid]

My post wasn't meant to slight Agevivo and I hope it wasn't mis-taken that way. Thank you Agevivo for putting in the time and effort to run this expirement. REALLY. Whatever information we get out of this expirement is worthwhile information.

I'm still hopeful that C60-oo is what it was shown to be in the Bahti study, but IMO, THIS particular expirement is begining to cast SOME doubt. I hope to see more promising results in other studies being conducted under better circumstances.

These are pet store mice and according to what I've read on this thread, they are coming toward the end of the average expected lifespan of pet store mice.

I understand they are pet store mice whose lifespan is somewhat random but I don't want to be in denial of the fact that these mice have been administered C60 since middle age(aprox) and now they are old mice..and it's showing. I don't know how far a stretch these mice are away from death, but I guess we'll have some answers over the next three months. It seems like in the last month or so, aging has noteably progressed.

This is different than the Bahti study (they were given c60-oo at an earlier age/ different strain of mice) but at the heart of it, I was hoping to see something a little more akin what was observed in Bahti's mice at their respective stage of life.

I"m wondering approx how much longer these pet store mice would have to live in order to surpass their average expected lifespan?

Most importantly, I"m happy that none of these three mice have died prematurely.

I will continue to take C60-oo

My post wasn't meant to slight Agevivo and I hope it wasn't mis-taken that way. Thank you Agevivo for putting in the time and effort to run this expirement. REALLY. Whatever information we get out of this expirement is worthwhile information.

I'm still hopeful that C60-oo is what it was shown to be in the Bahti study, but IMO, THIS particular expirement is begining to cast SOME doubt. I hope to see more promising results in other studies being conducted under better circumstances.

These are pet store mice and according to what I've read on this thread, they are coming toward the end of the average expected lifespan of pet store mice.

I understand they are pet store mice whose lifespan is somewhat random but I don't want to be in denial of the fact that these mice have been administered C60 since middle age(aprox) and now they are old mice..and it's showing. I don't know how far a stretch these mice are away from death, but I guess we'll have some answers over the next three months. It seems like in the last month or so, aging has noteably progressed.

This is different than the Bahti study (they were given c60-oo at an earlier age/ different strain of mice) but at the heart of it, I was hoping to see something a little more akin what was observed in Bahti's mice at their respective stage of life.

I"m wondering approx how much longer these pet store mice would have to live in order to surpass their average expected lifespan?

Most importantly, I"m happy that none of these three mice have died prematurely.

[niner]

There's nothing wrong with not blindly accepting Baati's results. In fact, no one should blindly accept any single paper. However, AgeVivo's results can't be taken as a refutation of anything. It's a very different experiment, and there are no controls. All we can say is that if they live remarkably longer than typical pet shop mice, then we have an interesting result that correlates with Baati. If the mice only live somewhat longer than whatever is considered typical, we know nothing about the effects of starting earlier, and because there are so few mice, it can't really tell us much about the effect of starting later in life. We need experiments that are controlled and larger. Crevetterbelle's rat experiment looks like it will be much more information-rich, although it will be a few years before we can say much from it.

[motorcitykid]

There's nothing wrong with not blindly accepting Baati's results. In fact, no one should blindly accept any single paper. However, AgeVivo's results can't be taken as a refutation of anything. It's a very different experiment, and there are no controls. All we can say is that if they live remarkably longer than typical pet shop mice, then we have an interesting result that correlates with Baati. If the mice only live somewhat longer than whatever is considered typical, we know nothing about the effects of starting earlier, and because there are so few mice, it can't really tell us much about the effect of starting later in life. We need experiments that are controlled and larger. Crevetterbelle's rat experiment looks like it will be much more information-rich, although it will be a few years before we can say much from it.

Point taken Niner. Agevivo's mouse study doesn't refute Baati's mouse study and we can't draw any conclusions at this point. However, it would have been refreshing to hear that Agevivo's mice were still quite youthful in appearance compared to other pet shop mice at the same chronoligical age.

[Logic]

errr... Did'nt the 2 (1 died) mice pass the average (or something) lifespan for mice a good while back already?

[AgeVivo]

Hello, one died rapidly, I sincerely guess because it had an issue right from start (at the beginning it was more frail than the other ones but I must say it wasn't so obvious back then). The two others are already long-lived actually. Unless it is a very long lived strain, but I doubt because I have had mice before from the same shop and at that age they were dead and a few months earlier they were ageing, really, and also because from what I heard in the shop people report their mice live almost 2 years. When I look at my mice, they are not jumping in the air like Tarzan (well I'm hearing them climb and move things in their cage right now) but they actually look very good and do not seem close to die soon. So I actually believe it works ; but it is "dangerous" to say this for my credibility in case that it is purely a coincidence (n=2, and not so extremely long lived [yet?]) and that with complementary analysis (including creveterbelle's logbook) we later were to find/consider that it doesn't work.

Edited by AgeVivo, 26 February 2013 - 11:25 PM.

[motorcitykid]

Hello, one died rapidly, I sincerely guess because it had an issue right from start (at the beginning it was more frail than the other ones but I must say it wasn't so obvious back then). The two others are already long-lived actually. Unless it is a very long lived strain, but I doubt because I have had mice before from the same shop and at that age they were dead and a few months earlier they were ageing, really, and also because from what I heard in the shop people report their mice live almost 2 years. When I look at my mice, they are not jumping in the air like Tarzan (well I'm hearing them climb and move things in their cage right now) but they actually look very good and do not seem close to die soon. So I actually believe it works ; but it is "dangerous" to say this for my credibility in case that it is purely a coincidence (n=2, and not so extremely long lived [yet?]) and that with complementary analysis (including creveterbelle's logbook) we later were to find/consider that it doesn't work.

Hi Agevivo. So IYO, the C60-00 administered mice are currently a few months longer lived than their pet store bretheren? That's somewhat encouraging news. Thanks for the update.

[Mind]

Hello, one died rapidly, I sincerely guess because it had an issue right from start (at the beginning it was more frail than the other ones but I must say it wasn't so obvious back then). The two others are already long-lived actually. Unless it is a very long lived strain, but I doubt because I have had mice before from the same shop and at that age they were dead and a few months earlier they were ageing, really, and also because from what I heard in the shop people report their mice live almost 2 years. When I look at my mice, they are not jumping in the air like Tarzan (well I'm hearing them climb and move things in their cage right now) but they actually look very good and do not seem close to die soon. So I actually believe it works ; but it is "dangerous" to say this for my credibility in case that it is purely a coincidence (n=2, and not so extremely long lived [yet?]) and that with complementary analysis (including creveterbelle's logbook) we later were to find/consider that it doesn't work.

Hi Agevivo. So IYO, the C60-00 administered mice are currently a few months longer lived than their pet store bretheren? That's somewhat encouraging news. Thanks for the update.

I just wanted to say that I agree with you(motorcitykid) about the usefulness of the original study. More than anyone else I have thrown cold water all over it in multiple discussions here at LongeCity, however, I have been a big promoter of the new experiments with people from LongeCity. We can lead the way in the replication/verification effort!

[Turnbuckle]

I actually believe it works ; but it is "dangerous" to say this for my credibility in case that it is purely a coincidence (n=2, and not so extremely long lived [yet?]) and that with complementary analysis (including creveterbelle's logbook) we later were to find/consider that it doesn't work.

Actually, n=3, as the first one to die should be included in the final result.

[LoopLooper]

I have a question. Do the mice in these studies ever procreate? Just curious about testing C60 with respect to that -- something that might be important to humans considering taking it.

Very good question, Zorba! There was a woman who was giving C60 to chicken. She should be asked to incubate some eggs. If the new hatching has malformations, it will be an ugly picture for those who are younger and have already taken C60.

That is how we can understand whether C60 interferes with DNA, especially the nuclear one.

As a young female, I am extremely interested in following up on this. How do I find this woman? If I can't find her, I want to start my own chicken coop!

P.S. Thank you AgeVivo for being so thorough. These posts have been an absolute delight to read. I don't watch TV, but this is like a series I can't wait for the next "episode" of.

Edited by QualityToast, 28 February 2013 - 05:39 PM.

[Adaptogen]

http://www.longecity...me/page__st__30

[AgeVivo]

Hello, I have been on vacations in the last 10 days and have left my mice with much food, much litter and a light that turns on during the day and off during the night (a normal light plugged on a very cheap plug that one can buy). I treated them before I left (need to find those pictures) and came back this morning, they look very good and still the, curious, playing around etc. I've just treated them this evening. here are pictures:
 b_130313.JPG   93.22KB   40 downloads  bw_130313.JPG   79.68KB   46 downloads  both_130313.JPG   68.51KB   39 downloads

Edited by AgeVivo, 13 March 2013 - 11:04 PM.

[YOLF]

Hmmm, I am a little concerned about the fur on their backs, but otherwise, they look good. We definitely need to get you a higher res camera.

[motorcitykid]

Thanks for the update Agevivo.

[AgeVivo]

This week I am not at home again. Before leaving I fed them as usual and took a few pictures: the first two are taken during the feeding
 b_160313.JPG   24.04KB   24 downloads  bw_160313.JPG   68.39KB   28 downloads  b2_160313.JPG   67.81KB   23 downloads  bw2_160313.JPG   30.18KB   19 downloads  both1_160313.JPG   59.48KB   16 downloads  both2_160313.JPG   127.08KB   15 downloads
I'll take videos soon but prehaps not right when I come back as I'll be busy

Edited by AgeVivo, 18 March 2013 - 05:12 PM.