526 replies to this topic

[YOLF]

Cool! I wonder if the C60 as a topical would be good for the scratching mouse.

[motorcitykid]

I'm going away for 12 days (leaving my mice with day/light, food and drink) and have just treated my mice with c60oo. they are very healthy, vivid, I afraid them slightly by bringing a big light and it was slightly difficult to catch them the tail. the one that scratched itself had made the zone without hair larger y the middle of the week, and it seems it has stopped scratching since. they will be 29 month old in a few days; I'll take and post various photos and videos when they are 30 month old. As usual, here are pictures of them before changing cage and when treating them:

Thank you for the update AgeVivo :-))

[Elus]

Keep it up, AgeVivo. Really nice job. I can't wait to see what becomes of this.

[AgeVivo]

Hello, I came back and my mice are doing wonderful. By eye I would even say better than when I left. The one who was scratching is not scratching anymore, they climb easily on the ball and are very active (the later is certainly confounded by my arrival after days of calm).

Attached Files

•  2mice_080513.JPG   117.13KB   5 downloads
•  2miceb_080513.JPG   91.18KB   4 downloads

[MacD]

Great news. This will be so awesome and exciting if they live 70 months or more !

[niner]

Great news. This will be so awesome and exciting if they live 70 months or more !

This particular type of mouse (pet shop brand...) normally lives about 24 months on average, as I recall. They started c60 in late life (18 months), so if they even live 36 months I think it would be impressive. I'm very happy to hear that they made it through AgeVivo's absence in great shape.

[YOLF]

What are your dose intervals? Are 12 days significantly longer than usual? If C60 indeed culls the mitochonrial herd, then it's possible that mito. populations are lower, or possibly too low for older organisms to thrive, but better for having fewer disfunctional mitos?

[AgeVivo]

What are your dose intervals? Are 12 days significantly longer than usual?

indeed 7 days +- 1 day in general but here for the first time I made an exception: I am 3 or 4 days late due to my vacations: so either I skip one week or I will now give 2 doses at a 4 days interval. Any opinion? If you answer within 30 min (:-)) I'll take it into account, otherwise I will simply have skept the treatment once.

[AgeVivo]

>> Maybe we should skip for a total of 15 days and then go back to week long intervals and see how they fair.
Perfect. Fine to me. Thank you for your fast answer!

[zen]

>> Maybe we should skip for a total of 15 days and then go back to week long intervals and see how they fair.
Perfect. Fine to me. Thank you for your fast answer!

My vote is for not skipping. What possible value would be in waiting 15 days?

[YOLF]

My cat gets it about every 14-21 days and his health seems to improve more the further he is from the dosage. He always recovers to a state that is percieveably better though. In particular he vomitted shortly after getting the last dose, though his vomits have gotten progressively smaller and don't amount to much more than a hair ball. I'm still thinking about what to do to remove his kidney stones or help him flush them out. I have some Chitosan and I see that in an expensive pet supplement (much more expensive than human chitosan) but I'm not sure what dose to give him yet as the company doesn't publish the dosing... But aside from the Chronic Kidney Disease making him vomit every few days, the vomit is less each time and he's improving overall IMO so I'm remaining hopeful.

[YOLF]

>> Maybe we should skip for a total of 15 days and then go back to week long intervals and see how they fair.
Perfect. Fine to me. Thank you for your fast answer!

My vote is for not skipping. What possible value would be in waiting 15 days?

Well he waited longer and they are much more active and appear to be in better health. We may find that older, weaker mice are less resilient to mitochondrial selection. C60, depending on how it is administered, may have better results and even be able to reverse aging. Or it might do some good for a while but eventually lead to the death of the mouse due to low mitochondrial populations as too many die off with each dose and lead to other disfunction. This is an exciting developement!

PS: I'm not discounting the fact that they could just be happy to see/smell/hear AV after 12 days, but the one mouse stopped scratching! Does that usually happen? They say there are no known treatments, but that it developes with age.

[zen]

>> Maybe we should skip for a total of 15 days and then go back to week long intervals and see how they fair.
Perfect. Fine to me. Thank you for your fast answer!

My vote is for not skipping. What possible value would be in waiting 15 days?

Well he waited longer and they are much more active and appear to be in better health. We may find that older, weaker mice are less resilient to mitochondrial selection. C60, depending on how it is administered, may have better results and even be able to reverse aging. Or it might do some good for a while but eventually lead to the death of the mouse due to low mitochondrial populations as too many die off with each dose and lead to other disfunction. This is an exciting developement!

PS: I'm not discounting the fact that they could just be happy to see/smell/hear AV after 12 days, but the one mouse stopped scratching! Does that usually happen? They say there are no known treatments, but that it developes with age.

I understand that the current schedule AgeVivo is following when feeding mice might not be optimal but since he is doing that already for a long time I would still opt on keeping the average amount of C60 consumed by the mice to be constant.

[AgeVivo]

One vote for, one vote against so... I've asked my family to decide: finish the 15 days cycle (wait about 3 days more) and continue on week-ends as usual.
Myself, I don't think it is important: in the original Baati et al study, the rats were treated during a few months only, and died many, many months later.

Edited by AgeVivo, 09 May 2013 - 12:26 AM.

[YOLF]

I really don't think we have anything to lose, the cumulative effect of the C60 on their lives should be enough to spare them a few days considering that they are healthier than they have been in a long time. Were the mice calorie restricted during this time? Did you leave them enough food or did someone else feed them while you were away?

[niner]

I agree with AgeVivo that it's not extremely critical. I could make the argument that maintaining a constant dose per unit of time is sensible, which would be a vote in favor of dosing them now then again on the weekend. Weren't Baati's rats dosed monthly in the later phase of the experiment, or was it every two weeks?

[YOLF]

Every 8-10 days IIRC.

[niner]

Weren't Baati's rats dosed monthly in the later phase of the experiment, or was it every two weeks?

From section 4.3 of Baati:

As biodistribution studies after daily gavages showed that C60
accumulates in livers and spleens, in order to avoid the negative
effects of prolonged olive oil administration such as obesity, excessive
steatosis, liver lipid degeneration, and insulin resistance [45],
we treated the rats daily only during 7 days and weekly during the
first two months, then every two weeks until one control rat died.

[YOLF]

That supports changing the dosing schedule IMO.

I was unaware that there were long term side effects with OO. Does that apply to humans also?

[hav]

That supports changing the dosing schedule IMO.

I was unaware that there were long term side effects with OO. Does that apply to humans also?

If so, it doesn't seem to apply to my dad. When my sister finally convinced him to give up his house a few years ago and move in with her, she found cases of olive oil stockpiled in his basement. He puts it in everything and he's 96. His wife only made it to 86 but that's after she was diagnosed with cancer and given 3 months to live... 15 years ago. No, neither have ever been interested in trying any c60 if you were wondering. They said it looked like it ruined good olive oil.

Howard

[zorba990]

My cat gets it about every 14-21 days and his health seems to improve more the further he is from the dosage. He always recovers to a state that is percieveably better though. In particular he vomitted shortly after getting the last dose, though his vomits have gotten progressively smaller and don't amount to much more than a hair ball. I'm still thinking about what to do to remove his kidney stones or help him flush them out. I have some Chitosan and I see that in an expensive pet supplement (much more expensive than human chitosan) but I'm not sure what dose to give him yet as the company doesn't publish the dosing... But aside from the Chronic Kidney Disease making him vomit every few days, the vomit is less each time and he's improving overall IMO so I'm remaining hopeful.

Maybe Chanca Piedra for kidney stones
http://www.accentonp...are.com/ut.html

[YOLF]

Thanks guys! So we don't hijack AV's thread, my Cat's Thread is here:
http://www.longecity...ther-cat-trial/

[AgeVivo]

Timeline recap
- Baati's rats started treatment at age 10 months and stoped at age 17 months, with a slowing down frequency: daily during one week, then weekly during 7 weeks, then every other week during 6 months then left untreated... and reached very long lives.
- My mice started at age 18 months, started with the same schedule except that when I started the every other week schedule they sound not in good shape so we decided to continue with a weekly schedule... they are 29.x months now and still in this weekly schedule (with the exception of last week-end)

Dosing weekly for so many months is slightly constraining (eg when I go to vacations)
=> For the "mouse/rat c60 at home" distributed experiment (please let me know if you want to join the group of participants) we decided to dose every other week during several months: simpler, and closer to Baati et al./in-between.

Edited by AgeVivo, 10 May 2013 - 10:17 AM.

[Logic]

Why not keep an eye on them and dose when they are noticeably less active?
This would give older mitos a chance to die off and the stronger a chance to multiply as nature intended?

This experiment already differs from Baati in that dosing will not be stopped completely to get the experiment over with.

[niner]

Why not keep an eye on them and dose when they are noticeably less active?
This would give older mitos a chance to die off and the stronger a chance to multiply as nature intended?

This experiment already differs from Baati in that dosing will not be stopped completely to get the experiment over with.

I don't recommend this approach. I think the activity metric is too prone to other confounders, and it introduces a level of randomness that makes replication difficult. Broken mitochondria don't always die, they often do just the opposite- They multiply until they wreck the cell.

I would, on the other hand, recommend switching to a two-week interval like Baati used in the later phases of the experiment. The half life of c60-oo in membranes is long enough to easily support this.

[zen]

I would, on the other hand, recommend switching to a two-week interval like Baati used in the later phases of the experiment. The half life of c60-oo in membranes is long enough to easily support this.

I think any changes to the ongoing experiment will make it more difficult to interpret its outcome and because of that I would prefer AgeVivo to continue the weekly dosing as usual. On the other hand I fully agree that it would be great to compere the results with dosing every two, three and four weeks but IMO it should be done in the separate mouse trial not in this one.

Edited by zen, 11 May 2013 - 12:40 AM.

[YOLF]

How did you're family feel about it AV? Are they longevity enthusiasts?

[AgeVivo]

The one week frequency was chosen here collectively; one of the elements is that since we are starting a distributed, controlled lifespan test across homes, one thought is that with my very few mice I could do something exploratory: this "every week, "lifelong" approach. It was a slightly risky choice, but at the time of that choice, other choices sounded even more risky (details may be found in the first pages of this thread). So far, so good

Edited by AgeVivo, 11 May 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[AgeVivo]

Regarding my family, everyone knows I'm a longevity enthusiast and with time they discover that I'm right to be; my wife was very afraid of mice (it's like people afraid of spiders) and didn't want to them in, then didn't want to see them, then after a few months everyone got used and now everyone likes the mice. When friends come, they are often showed the mice, even when I'm not at home. So, very positive.

[AgeVivo]

Changed the cage and fed them, as usual (with the exception of last week-end). In fact, I see that both scratch them, frequently, though not much (not like the black-belly one 2 or 3 weeks ago).
 bb_120513.JPG   93.89KB   13 downloads  both_120513.JPG   131.18KB   16 downloads  bw_120513.JPG   85.68KB   15 downloads