526 replies to this topic

[revenant]

The results so far seem telling. That no apparent injurious effects have manifested is reassuring. The scratching is probably mites.

[AgeVivo]

still same state. intermittent scratch in both of them. both of them still looking good and healthy
as usual I have changed the cage yesterday evening (1 pic here) and treated them this morning (2 pic here per mouse: one from oustide cage one from inside):
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[AgeVivo]

This coming Monday, it will be their 13th month of treatment, and 31th month of life. Quite some emotion. Next week I will again leave for 2 weeks, but given their good shape I am not worried at all. They are still lively and looking healthy, actually even more I would say that one and 2 weeks ago (scratching less). As usual I have changed their cage tonight and will treat them tomorrow morning.
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Edited by AgeVivo, 28 June 2013 - 10:43 PM.

[AgeVivo]

I have treated them this morning as usual
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[tweedlover]

Nice one Age Vivo - into the home stretch! Roll on 3yr birthday

[trying2survive]

Everyday you are helping collaborate the C60-OO study. Thanks AgeVivo, I appreciate your efforts in replicating the study and sharing all the info.

[AgeVivo]

mentioning in case: my boy said to my wife this week that he had done a bigbad thing to the mice; I have had very busy days this week, changed the cage yesterday evening very late and fed them this morning very early without seeing much except that they had less hair than before (don't think that's him: certainly the natural process+summer weather), that the big mice is not running (perhaps him) and... that there was a lot of cheese in the cage ;-) I asked him today: he took them, one bited him slightly, he was afraid (but zero pain he adds) and made the cage fall. He put everything back and gave them his cheese to excuse himself.
more fear than harm I think, but such things happen occasionnally (I am going to securize the cage still ;-) and I state them of course and hope that other participants state them as well of course. I took 2 pictures this morning as usual (minimum when in a hurry) and will post them when I am online with my computer

Edited by AgeVivo, 06 July 2013 - 04:25 PM.

[ambivalent]

Hi agevivo,

I've very much enjoyed reading your thread and witnessing your diligence to scientific rigour! If I may, a couple of thoughts:

1. Timestamping: have your thought about doing this? While, as suggested,I can only discern the utmost scientific integrity from your posts (and I note your are a stickler for validation of observations:-)) - if your study continues to progress as we hope and word is spread further a field of you replication of Baalti, and cited as evidence of c60's longevity-potential, undoubtedly it would be challenged by some as there is no actual proof these mice are currently alive! ((or did you register them with SENS for the m-prize). It could be argued pictures, videos were taking some time ago. At least sticking in a video in a current newspaper would mittigate these doubts in the future!

2. I understand you are conducting a c60 rat study with other longecity members: I wonder if it would be worth taking softer data during the study - it would be interesting to know if the rats looked younger, behaved younger etc. Perhaps, standardised pictures of all rats, for example, could be taken and submitted to those with discriminating judgement of rodents where they could rank them according to how old they seem. It would be interesting to observe if, after one year, c60 rats appeared younger to the trained eye.

3. on cats - one thought I had on for a cat experiment which could inform quickly on the anecdotes of c60 in cats, though not longevity naturally, would be to track their activity with some gps device when left to their own devices. Does c60 make a difference? Does activity change according to dose, frequency, proximity to dose etc. Quite a lot of useful data could be gleaned from a small number of cats if the study was performed well I'd have thought.

once again thanks for your effort.

[YOLF]

Is there a cheap gps collar one could get?

[ambivalent]

No idea - there was a horizon programme on the bbc (on youtube) following the secret life of cats - cameras fitted too I believe. But I'm sure the technology exists pretty cheaply - ones that joggers use perhaps?

Edited by ambivalent, 07 July 2013 - 04:43 PM.

[YOLF]

We should talk about it in another thread so we don't hijack AV's.
http://www.longecity...other-cat-trial

[ambivalent]

Sure, I just added it in here as I recall AV wanting to carry out cat studies: apologies if that was bad form. By all means put together metrics and experimental conditions on your thread: I'm sure there are those better qualified to contribute to those specifications than me, especially as I've not owned a cat! Happy to contribute though.

[AgeVivo]

1. It could be argued pictures, videos were taking some time ago. At least sticking in a video in a current newspaper would mittigate these doubts in the future!

Very good idea. Will do it as soon as I come back from vacations

2. I understand you are conducting a c60 rat study with other longecity members: I wonder if it would be worth taking softer data

Absolutely. What would be great is to have participants participate in Mprize at home. For that, many things must be tested: http://mprize.org/?pn=mj_mprize_how I had thought of it when starting this, but it was a bit complex and I did not want to add any complexity that could slow me down or, worse, increase the risk of me not doing things right. Is anyone interested in thinking about how to meet Mprize requirements? If so, please discuss it here: http://www.longecity...tion-open-poll/ Please consider that things need to be excessively simple for participants: we don't want them to focus on many parameters and lack time to handle the food and drink normally.
Also If we win the Mprize, it needs to be decided if all the money goes to LongeCity, of it some of it (eg half of it) goes to the person with the longest lived animal or (best I think) equally to the experimenters.

3. on cats

on mice, rats, hamsters, cats or other, please answer this poll and discuss there: http://www.longecity...tion-open-poll/

All the best

Edited by AgeVivo, 08 July 2013 - 04:39 PM.

[AgeVivo]

Oh... the mouse with the white belly is dead

It was 31.5 month old. I have put it in the freezer and will analyse it. The other mouse is more or less like before, but I prefer to ask the news before taking time to look at things.

This is clearly not compatible with a 90% life extension. I do feel that some life extension has been achieved overall, but not exceptional then, and based on 2 mice with that level of lifespan absolutely nothing can be said. Concerning people who want to try c60-or-placebo in rats, and haven't started yet, I wonder if we should think again of how to respect Baati et al's design as well as possible. I hope that a serious lab does a serious c60 lifespan analysis that repeats Baati et al's experiment.

Concerning aging, I guess that shows that we are not there yet. One possibility would be that c60 is a wonderdrug and that my setup is too far from a good setup; Another possibility is that C60. More work to needs to be done. We do need such lifespan tests otherwise we are only in the theory and with theories we can basically say and think anything.

Edited by AgeVivo, 21 July 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[MacD]

:(

I think alot of people will be upset to hear this.

Thanks for the info and effort Agevivo.

[YOLF]

There's always cryonics! What about the other rodent cohorts? Do we have any that were started young like the Baati rats?

[ambivalent]

Hi Agevivo,

I am sorry for your saddness and disappointment, thank you for all your work. The study, though, may yet turn to be a success. Let's not be too downbeat about c60, we don't know the cause of death yet. What might be hypothesized of c60 if cause of death is a tumour? I suspect a number of things but certainly it wouldn't necessarily undermine the longevity potential of c60 expressed from the Baalti study - given the c60 rats were all cancer free. The mice were all given c60 at a mature age, too late for the first and still an impressive age for the second. Thank you for your continued efforts.

[Adaptogen]

That is very unfortunate news . Awaiting the autopsy results.

i cannot remember off of the top of my head, how old were baati's rats when they started c60 (10 months?), and how old were agevivo's?

[YOLF]

IIRV AV's were 18 months.

[Kevnzworld]

Well, this is obviously not good news for C60OO. That being said.
The deceased rat did live over 950 days. That is longer than any of Spindler's control rats. The sample size of two is incredibly small. I'm excluding the white rat which passed away early in the experiment. If the number of rats had been five, or ten, the death of this one rat wouldn't be of major statistical significance.
It will be interesting to see how much longer the surviving rat will live.

[Andey]

I dont think that this is a bad news. Problem with such experiments is that if results are not outstanding than it means nothing really.
If there will be a control group and enough mice count we could compare something but not.
Anyways I hope this would calm some hype around C60 in some enthusiasts heads - its not a panacea of any kind .

[MacD]

Agevivo, are you going to find out the cause of death?

I really hope your mouse didnt die of old age.


As said, it might still prove a success.

[Turnbuckle]

The sample size of two is incredibly small.

The sample size was three. Two out of three rats have already died.

If there will be a control group and enough mice count we could compare something but not.

Exactly.

[Turnbuckle]

This is clearly not compatible with a 90% life extension.

Without a control group, it isn't clear. Some mice strains have average lifespans half of this mouse.

[Kevnzworld]

The sample size of two is incredibly small.

The sample size was three. Two out of three rats have already died.

The first rat died from a tumor ( probably preexisting ) so early in the treatment that it isn't fair to include it in the experiment.

[hav]

Agevivo, sorry to hear of the passing of your 2nd mouse whom I for one have become vicariously attached to. But I think your mouse will contribute valuable information to us all.

We know from the Baati study that the olive oil control rats lived on average 20% longer but all died of cancer/tumors. While the c60/oo treated rats lived 90% longer and all died tumor free of apparent old age. An inference could be that olive oil alone delays death by old age by 20% while the balance of life extension by C60 may be due to cancer inhibition. Personally, I'd take death of the 2nd mouse from old age as consistent with Baati and with a c60 cancer prevention effect which I would consider good news. An autopsy will tell us a great deal.

Howard

[Turnbuckle]

The sample size of two is incredibly small.

The sample size was three. Two out of three rats have already died.

The first rat died from a tumor ( probably preexisting ) so early in the treatment that it isn't fair to include it in the experiment.

Fairness doesn't enter into it. Not that it matters when you have only three animals and no controls. The only way this experiment might have demonstrated anything was if these animals had lived longer than even the longest mouse strains are expected to live. As is, it demonstrates little except that C60 isn't too poisonous.

[ambivalent]

The c-elegan mutants engineered to get various diseases avoided their fate and lived twice as long, Cynthia Kenyon presumed, through the process of slowing down aging - lowering the expression, as I recall, of DAF-2. But still they never got the disease, not just later, but never. So is it reasonable to expect that the DAF2-mutation effectively sets the disease way into the future, say, at 150 days, which of course the worms never reached and instead die of something else before then - presumably by some cause un or less influenced by the gene-change? So therefore is it also reasonable to suggest that, in the case of Baalti, the rats may have been expected to encounter cancer at say 10years due to c60oo. Preumably, if c60 acted this way, the later in life c60 is implemented the less it is able to project (or delay) the disease.

Edited by ambivalent, 22 July 2013 - 04:44 PM.

[ambivalent]

So, in effect, if treatment is applied early enough, the disease, perhaps, goes to the back of the age-related diseases queue but if treated late the onset of the disease is delayed, but it is still next or the most likely of the age related diseases, still at the front of the queue.

Edited by ambivalent, 22 July 2013 - 05:31 PM.

[niner]

No one dies of old age. They die from lethal conditions that are more likely in old age, but there is still a cause of death, which will be something other than simply 'old age'.