526 replies to this topic

[motorcitykid]

Both of Agevivo's mice passed their expiration date back around the time of Feb,(based on what we know of the average lifespan of pet store mice) no? It's now the end of July, and one of them is still kicking. Would this not be considered a somewhat significant life extension effect? Moreso then the Bahti rats that were administered evoo? Lets see how much longer this last mouse survives.

[VP.]

[YOLF]

Off topic, but a neat find:

[Breestyle]

Agevivo, I'm very sorry for your loss - they have been with you (and many of us) for a long time and we appreciate your efforts.

Had a question about something that happened a couple weeks ago... you mentioned, "the cage fell." Is it possible that the cause of death could be attributed somehow to the fall? It seems the probability could be quite high that any animal at that advanced geriatric age dropped from any significant height could potentially sustain some sort of trauma.

After the fall you noticed, "less hair" and one of the mice "not running" - looking back, do you think this (and the passing not long after) could have been the result of trauma or stress related to the incident? (all quotes from post #367)

Are you sending the deceased mouse to a qualified lab or veterinarian for autopsy to find the exact cause of death?

[Turnbuckle]

Both of Agevivo's mice passed their expiration date back around the time of Feb,(based on what we know of the average lifespan of pet store mice) no? It's now the end of July, and one of them is still kicking. Would this not be considered a somewhat significant life extension effect? Moreso then the Bahti rats that were administered evoo? Lets see how much longer this last mouse survives.

Significance is based on statistics. Due to the small sample size, the absence of data on their pedigree, and the lack of controls, it's impossible to say whether these animals lived longer than they might have lived without C60. That one is still living could be chance. That two are dead could be chance. So, I'm sorry to say, this was a wasted effort. Not what people want to hear, I'm sure, but the lifespans of rodent strains are too variable to learn anything without controls.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 23 July 2013 - 12:18 PM.

[YOLF]

@TB the idea was that they might live significantly longer than one might expect. We could still learn from a larger size uncontrolled study or get a positive for C60 if the rodents live much longer than expected or beat the known control record.

Are you going to buy new rodents if the last one dies AV? It could be a chance to test on younger mice.

[ambivalent]

While it is impossible to say whether this mouse would have lived as long without c60oo, we can say that with a degree of confidence that it is probable that it would not have. You don't need controls to draw some measure of confidence: you know that randomly selected mice from the store rarely live beyond two years. Were these exceptional mice from an average strain, or average mice from an exceptional strain or were they the benefactors of the (apparent) same life-extending treatment witnessed in the Baalti study? Something exceptional was occurring: exceptional strain, exceptional mice, or exceptional treatment. Given the same treatment had an exceptional effect in a controlled study on rats, the smart money would obviously be on the treatment, the c60oo. But not to a conclusively high enough level of confidence. I wouldn't consider any evidence other than conclusive to be wasted.

In addition, if the months roll by with the final mouse surviving then the confidence levels in the treatment will continue to grow at the expense of confidence in exceptional strain or mouse. If it is still alive in 18 months then do you really need controls to tell you c60 is life extending in rodents?

Edited by ambivalent, 23 July 2013 - 03:57 PM.

[AgeVivo]

Hello, Thank you all,

much to think of course. I do believe that the mouse lived long already and that, in my experience, the remaining mouse is very exceptional. Although, as some indicated here, there is nothing proven here: there is still a small possibility of exceptional mice compared to pet standards around me, or particularly good care on my behalf (although I think I am only average; perhaps standard-good in bedding but certainly not in taking time to play with them, which some pet owners do).

Had a question about something that happened a couple weeks ago... you mentioned, "the cage fell." Is it possible that the cause of death could be attributed somehow to the fall? It seems the probability could be quite high that any animal at that advanced geriatric age dropped from any significant height could potentially sustain some sort of trauma.

After the fall you noticed, "less hair" and one of the mice "not running" - looking back, do you think this (and the passing not long after) could have been the result of trauma or stress related to the incident? (all quotes from post #367)

I don't like to say it because I don't like to have 'bad' conditions but it could well be. I don't think that for young mice it would have been a close-to-lethal issue, but for those mice who are obvious not looking anymore like young mice (even if not looking that bad either) that could...

Are you sending the deceased mouse to a qualified lab or veterinarian for autopsy to find the exact cause of death?

I was planning to do the necropsy myself, eg this weekend. Although Prof Moussa (who I called about my mouse and who was surprised and disapointed, and who also thought that it could be due to starting at a too late age) proposed me, if I wanted, that Tarek Baati does the necropsy for me. What do you think is the best? I prefer to do what people think is the most trustful. If you know someone in France close to Paris who wants to be next to me during the necrospy, it could be optimal.

* * *
Concerning n=2 and inconclusive conditions, the best would be to have a few rat owners to start dosing their rats with placebo or controls at age 10 and during 5 months, very similarly to what was done in the article. But I can't force anyone of course to participate.

Edited by AgeVivo, 23 July 2013 - 10:21 PM.

[YOLF]

We could do a live stream of the autopsy/necropsy on tiny cam or something like that and then post more detailed pics taken with a DSLR or HD camcorder elsewhere.

Could we have a witness in Spain?

[AgeVivo]

Anyone from Spain, France, other willing to come to Paris to assist the necrospy?

Edited by AgeVivo, 27 July 2013 - 09:26 PM.

[YOLF]

I had actually meant for the Spaniard to witness the necropsy in the event that the mouse gets sent to the Study authors.

[AgeVivo]

The study authors are in France and me too, perhaps there is a confusion or I don't understand

Anyway, here are picture of my mouse on Monday morning, before and when taking c60 on bread:
 b1_220713.JPG   34.14KB   11 downloads  b2_220713.JPG   30.07KB   12 downloads  b3_220713.JPG   48KB   11 downloads
I now see that my mouse is coming to see me whenever I go next to the cage: life may be boring for her, walone in the cage (That's probably what happens to most older persons actually)
This morning I have changed the cage, this evening I will feed her c60 and post pictures.

[niner]

life may be boring for her

This could be a real problem- bored mice don't live as long as mice that are having fun. Maybe you could bring her a new mouse friend?

[AgeVivo]

I am a little afraid that they would fight though. In the past I have added young mice to young adult mice and some fought to death. I think that's just how it is.

[ambivalent]

I seem to remember reading of a study a few years back reporting that bio-markers in older people were improved if they spent more time in the presence of younger people and in general a social life seems to improve longevity. What about adjacent cages?

[YOLF]

@AV: so they authors are in France but did the study for the Spanish National Cancer Center?

She's starting to lose fur too :(

[AgeVivo]

Spanish cancer institute? perhaps I missed something, perhaps you are talking of Maria Blasco, I don't know. (To all, here is the paper of Baati et al: http://extremelongev...0-Fullerene.pdf).
here is a (poor) picture my the mouse eating the c60oo on bread tonight:  b_290713.JPG   35.92KB   11 downloads. Battery issue, will post better images/video during the week or next week-end (she will be 32 month old). Indeed she is scratched herself on the back to blood, and globally she is aging: she is still vivid and moving around, but she pays attention when climbing on things or going down, and sometimes fall; I guess that could be both her scratching and things like rheumatism. I would have said a "2 year-old" mouse, or 2year+; but I don't have that much experience to estimate ages of mice. At this point, unless my mouse lives greatly above 3 year old, I don't think that I am proving much more. What is needed is something like the c60 at home distributed experiment that we want, with middle age rats, and/or better a replication of baati et al by an independent lab.

Edited by AgeVivo, 29 July 2013 - 12:02 AM.

[niner]

It would be strange if c60 worked in rats but not in mice. It's certainly possible that starting at a later age is a problem. (I hope not...) If providing her a new mouse friend would not work well, perhaps there are other things you could do to make her life more interesting, like provide new climbing toys, or maybe play with her more?

[YOLF]

What about upping the dosage? Is it possible it would cause a greater degree of mitophagy and further improve mito function? There is the opportunity of transitioning to a case study of a group of substances to reverse some symptoms of aging.

An antibiotic or a little bit of iodine on the scratch area might also help if she's got an infection or if the open wound is enabling an infection.

[AgeVivo]

It would be strange if c60 worked in rats but not in mice

I agree, but indeed a matter of dosage typically, age at start, duration, etc; and my experiment showing no immense improvements (it suggests improvements but not like doubling healthspan), to have a better understanding the best is to closely reproduce Baati et al

[mait]

It would be strange if c60 worked in rats but not in mice

I agree, but indeed a matter of dosage typically, age at start, duration, etc; and my experiment showing no immense improvements (it suggests improvements but not like doubling healthspan), to have a better understanding the best is to closely reproduce Baati et al

This is the evil of missing a control group. Maybe the animals in control group would had been dead by the month 17-18 and the treatment with C60 started at the very end of the lives of those 3 animals? At the best case scenario it is like taking 70 year old person and making him or her live to 120-130 span. If so this is unqualified success.

As has been previously stated: AgeVivo's work is greatly appreciated by showing that c60 seems not to have chronic toxicity - this should be the "take home message" from this experiment. The life extension part is inconclusive because previously mentioned lack of control group.

[ambivalent]

If instead we take as the metric 'percentage improvement on remaining life expectancy' then the results could well indeed be similar to Baati - c60 might have trebled the remaining life expectancy of the mice (if ignoring the early loss). This would seem to be a more sensible metric if you are trialing different age groups. Agevivo's experiment suggests that c60 may not be cancer curative - its the first recorded rodent to die of cancer while being treated with c60. That is pretty significant too.

Edited by ambivalent, 29 July 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[VP.]

Maybe we can get a Kickstarter project going for a new C60 mouse study. I can't run it but I would contribute.

[mait]

Maybe we can get a Kickstarter project going for a new C60 mouse study. I can't run it but I would contribute.

This would be the thing to do. I am also willing to support this project. This time it should be the experiment with larger number of animals (5 for example) and the new experiment must have control group included (another 5 animals for example). Plus using the known inbreed strain of mice would allow us to have benchmark maximum lifespan to compare our results.

Maybe we can also distribute the project between many contributors from one round of financing. As niner stated before one of the main questions arising from AgeVivo’s experiment is the question, whether the effect of C60 in EVOO on lifespan extension is dependent on the age of animals when dosing is started. All in all:

a) First study of 10 animals (control = 5 and experimental group = 5 animals) could star dosing when animals are in first third of their life according to the average lifespan of strain of mice used;

b) second study of 10 animals (control = 5 and experimental group = 5 animals) could star dosing when animals are in second third of their life according to the average lifespan of strain of mice used;

c) third study of 10 animals (control = 5 and experimental group = 5 animals) could star dosing when animals are in last third of their life according to the average lifespan of strain of mice used.

Edited by mait, 29 July 2013 - 06:27 PM.

[clairvoyant]

I would support the project if there are at least two separate animals, quite doped with C60, not necessarily mice, which are allowed to progenate.

[niner]

I would support the project if there are at least two separate animals, quite doped with C60, not necessarily mice, which are allowed to progenate.

This would be a very important experiment, in that we really don't know what the effects of c60-oo are on development. It would be nice to know that it wasn't a teratogen. It probably isn't, but it would sure be nice to know before some human inadvertently runs the experiment on their child.

While I'd very much like to see this tried in fetal development, I'd also like to see Baati replicated, so I wouldn't condition my support on a development experiment. To me, it would be icing on the cake.

[Kevnzworld]

I wonder if anyone is trying to replicate the Baati experiment. And if not why?
It's been well over a year now.
If C60OO really has the life extension potential that Baati's results imply one would think that numerous other studies would be in process by now.

[AgeVivo]

If C60OO really has the life extension potential that Baati's results imply one would think that numerous other studies would be in process by now.

Hopefully. The sad truth is that it is logistically difficult to do long term experiments in labs and very few will test results of other unless working in the field. And who is working on c60 and lifespan... Perhaps the ITP could do something, that would be nice.

[clairvoyant]

It would be strange if c60 worked in rats but not in mice. It's certainly possible that starting at a later age is a problem. (I hope not...) If providing her a new mouse friend would not work well, perhaps there are other things you could do to make her life more interesting, like provide new climbing toys, or maybe play with her more?

I believe than C60 works but it will exhibit different lifetime increase for different animals.

Lower animals have cell and mitochondrial membranes composed of fatty acids with higher degree of un-saturation (more double bonds). These lipids are more prone to lipid peroxidation than those of the higher animals are. This is one of the reasons for shorter lifespan in lower animals.
Solubility of C60 is lower in heavily un-saturated fats and higher in fats with fewer double bonds.
(Carbon Materials: chemistry and physics
F. Catalgo
Chapter 13, page327 (331 PDF), see the table and the formula on the next page).

In other words, the membranes of shorter living animals can take up less C60 than those of the longer living ones can. Also, C60 is known to prevent lipid peroxidation.

Therefore, conversely to the common knowledge that the higher animals can benefit less from an antioxidant, I think that the percentage of lifetime increase in mice on C60 will be smaller than rats’. The AgeVivo’ experiment is going to confirm that.

…Then what about humans?

[ambivalent]

With the gravy on offer at SENS surely there will have been scores of mice-on-c60 quests launched to get the money. The ages would be spanning and if the sample is large enough then there would be no need for controls to reach conlusions upon the criticality of dosing age.