526 replies to this topic

[niner]

AgeVivo put the photos in a protected forum to keep unsuspecting people from being disturbed if they saw them. We're working on a mechanism to make them available to the whole community.

[maxwatt]

I will ask my look at the photos, she frequently autopsies mice.

[Mind]

"Bad" is not the right word right now for this occurrence since we have no data and no conclusion about the nature of this death. "Sad", yes. It is always sad when a pet dies.

Sure, many of us were hoping that the mice would live very long and healthy lives and give us some "positive" evidence in regards to C60oo. Hope is not science. Until and unless we can definitively determine the cause of death, there can be no robust scientific conclusion to be drawn.

[AgeVivo]

Oh, very big (sad) news, that I did not expect to happen now: the white mouse died overnight.

Indeed sad, not bad. And the body looked in good shape otherwise. I'm waiting to see with the other mice, and with rat pet owners who follow a protocol (in terms of age and frequency) that is closer to Baati et al.

[Danail Bulgaria]

At this moment noone knows if the news are only sad or also bad.

Cancer is more and more frequently viewed as an age related disease.

Plus C60 is not proven that is not cancerogenic. Many cancerogenic compounds leave no signs of acute toxicity, but are causing cancer after a long time of exposure. Many cancerogens are organic chemical compounds.

[niner]

Cancer is very common in mice and rats. The long lifespan of Baati's rats is a pretty good argument that C60-oo is not carcinogenic. Obviously, we need more data to make a definitive statement, but I've not seen anything to suggest that C60-oo is carcinogenic.

[Logic]

Was it not mentioned here somewhere that Baati's rats were autopsied and had no cancer even to a single cell level??

[sthira]

I apologize if I sound like an ass for the reminder: autopsies are for humans; necropsies are performed on rats and non-human animals.

Also, I'm not sure why anyone would be offended by or need shields from your necropsy pictures?

[niner]

Also, I'm not sure why anyone would be offended by or need shields from your necropsy pictures?

I'm not either. I see no reason why it couldn't be here in the c60health forum, with an informative title that would warn people. The first post could be something like a "spoiler alert" that would further warn people. If anyone stumbles upon it at that point, well, they'd better stay out of the meat aisle at the grocery store. It really isn't that bad. It's not my call to make, but if AgeVivo gives the ok, I'll move it here.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I found a veterinary doctor, who agreed to see the photos from the autopsy or necropsy or whatever You call it, plus anamnesis (a story) of the known symptoms before the rat death. It was hard for me to make him give his oppinion, because he said, that he can not give an exact diagnose of the death if he do not have the animal corpse. So, in case You gather the known information about the mouse before its death, and if You decide to send me or to post the photos let me know.

[AgeVivo]

Seitvtcho, thank you! I have sent you the photos and story, I hope you received it

This morning I have fed the 2 remaining mice with 4 drops of C60oo on bread. It is a bit strange to have the big cage for the 2 mice, and to feed only the 2 mice. 2 is really a small number. Sniff ;-]. Here are the pictures and a video
 bb141012.JPG   59.73KB   9 downloads  bw141012.JPG   47.64KB   9 downloadshttp://agevivo.com/l...mice_141012.avi

[AgeVivo]

The 2 mice are doing well. I've changed their cage tonight and will give them the treatment tomorrow.

[Andey]

Any news on first mouse cause of death ?
And how its going for others ? )

[Danail Bulgaria]

Andrey, I send the photos to the vet. However he said that the autopsy (or the necropsy) need to be extended more in order to be conclusive about what the mouse has died from. He gave recommendations on what next needs to be done. Unfortunately, it appeared, that the remains of this mouse have been thrown away and no futher autopsy can be made. So ... there is not a way to be determined what this mouse has died from. AgeVivo wrote me on the email, that he will follow these recommendations and will keep more the corpses of the other two mice.

[niner]

Maybe the tumor was not the immediate cause of death, but it shouldn't have been there, and is clearly a bad thing. What I take from this is that if cancer has already been initiated prior to using C60, the use of C60 will not stop it. It was recently confirmed that Baati's long-lived animals were free of tumors at death. This suggests that at least in Wistar rats, under Baati's dosing protocol, cancer risk is reduced substantially. Whether or not this applies to other species or to different dosing protocols is an open question.

[Andey]

Andrey, I send the photos to the vet. However he said that the autopsy (or the necropsy) need to be extended more in order to be conclusive about what the mouse has died from. He gave recommendations on what next needs to be done. Unfortunately, it appeared, that the remains of this mouse have been thrown away and no futher autopsy can be made. So ... there is not a way to be determined what this mouse has died from. AgeVivo wrote me on the email, that he will follow these recommendations and will keep more the corpses of the other two mice.

Thanks ) Anyway its a good pilot study - there is chance of learning and avoiding mistakes in more complete community study )

[Logic]

Maybe the tumor was not the immediate cause of death, but it shouldn't have been there, and is clearly a bad thing. What I take from this is that if cancer has already been initiated prior to using C60, the use of C60 will not stop it. It was recently confirmed that Baati's long-lived animals were free of tumors at death. This suggests that at least in Wistar rats, under Baati's dosing protocol, cancer risk is reduced substantially. Whether or not this applies to other species or to different dosing protocols is an open question.

Tumor? What tumor??? First I've heard of it.

Edited by Logic, 27 October 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[AgeVivo]

My first guess is that it died from a hemothorax due to a neoplastic lung injury.

Indeed, "neoplastic": tumor. A white mass of tissue grew out of one lung. I've done autopsies (necropsies) of quite many old mice in the past, and I don't think I could be wrong on that. Whether it is the cause of death I don't know, but it seems probable.

I hear, I read that C60 seems to be very good to prevent cancer. See the interview of Pr Moussa: http://www.longecity...oussa-in-paris/ Well, for my case maybe that's because I started at a late age and the mice already had that tumor, and C60 did not remove it. I don't know. That's just what I observed.


The other 2 mice are doing well. They slowly play a little less and have more difficulties in climbing, but really nothing worrying. The hair is nice. As usual, I've changed their cage tonight, taken pictures, I will feed them C60oo tomorrow morning, take pictures and post them.

[zorba990]

My first guess is that it died from a hemothorax due to a neoplastic lung injury.

Indeed, "neoplastic": tumor. A white mass of tissue grew out of one lung. I've done autopsies (necropsies) of quite many old mice in the past, and I don't think I could be wrong on that. Whether it is the cause of death I don't know, but it seems probable.

I hear, I read that C60 seems to be very good to prevent cancer. See the interview of Pr Moussa: http://www.longecity...oussa-in-paris/ Well, for my case maybe that's because I started at a late age and the mice already had that tumor, and C60 did not remove it. I don't know. That's just what I observed.


The other 2 mice are doing well. They slowly play a little less and have more difficulties in climbing, but really nothing worrying. The hair is nice. As usual, I've changed their cage tonight, taken pictures, I will feed them C60oo tomorrow morning, take pictures and post them.

Would be good to know if there was any C60 in the tumor tissue. (e.g. was it walled-off tissue before any C60 could get in there)
I find the dosing method a little odd here -- I understand the original study method was a little traumatic for the mice, but in this case is there any assurance on the dose or do they just fight over the bread soaked C60 and whoever wins gets it?

[AgeVivo]

Would be good to know if there was any C60 in the tumor tissue

Would be good for next time, if there is any. Because I don't have -20°C freezers so I couldn't keep the tumor

I find the dosing method a little odd here -- I understand the original study method was a little traumatic for the mice, but in this case is there any assurance on the dose or do they just fight over the bread soaked C60 and whoever wins gets it?

Read again. The dosing method I'm using is very good imho. Each mouse eats one after the other, so that each mouse gets to eat the exact desired dose.

Edited by AgeVivo, 28 October 2012 - 11:21 AM.

[AgeVivo]

So here are picture. Not best quality because I only had my phone-camera working. The 2 mice yesterday evening before changing the cage and this morning before feeding them, then as usual each of them having 4 drops of C60oo on bread (corresponding dose quantified earlier in this thread).
 2012-10-27 21.37.52.jpg   56.02KB   12 downloads  2mice_28102012.jpg   35.96KB   11 downloads  bb_28102012.jpg   20.85KB   9 downloads  bw281012.jpg   23.57KB   8 downloads
They are still able to climb on the green balls, I think that can be reference to follow them.

[Turnbuckle]

Would be good for next time, if there is any. Because I don't have -20°C freezers so I couldn't keep the tumor

The standard refrigerator freezer gets down to -15C or so. Which should be close enough.

[clairvoyant]

It seems to me that the mice are fat. As you know obesity is a risk factor for tumors and other diseases, too. If I were you I would decrease amount of food a little bit so as not to be accused of calorie restricted them.
Success.

[Turnbuckle]

My first guess is that it died from a hemothorax due to a neoplastic lung injury.

Indeed, "neoplastic": tumor. A white mass of tissue grew out of one lung. I've done autopsies (necropsies) of quite many old mice in the past, and I don't think I could be wrong on that. Whether it is the cause of death I don't know, but it seems probable.

C60, at least the water-soluble variety, has been shown to have anti-cancer activity in mice--

AIM:

To estimate the impact of C(60) fullerene aqueous solution (C(60)FAS) on the rate of transplanted malignant tumor growth and metastasis.

METHODS:

Lewis lung carcinoma was transplanted into С57Bl/6J male mice. Conventional methods for the evaluation of antitumor and antimetastatic effects have been used.

RESULTS:

The C(60)FAS at low single therapeutic dose of 5 mg/kg inhibited the growth of transplanted malignant tumor (antitumor effect) and metastasis (antimetastatic effect): the maximum therapeutic effect was found to be of 76.5% for the tumor growth inhibition; the increase of animal life span by 22% was found; the metastasis inhibition index was estimated as 48%.

CONCLUSION:

It was found that water-soluble pristine С(60) fullerenes efficiently inhibit the transplanted malignant tumor growth and metastasis.




http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21956470

Edited by Turnbuckle, 28 October 2012 - 04:58 PM.

[clairvoyant]

I have a question. Do the mice in these studies ever procreate? Just curious about testing C60 with respect to that -- something that might be important to humans considering taking it.

Very good question, Zorba! There was a woman who was giving C60 to chicken. She should be asked to incubate some eggs. If the new hatching has malformations, it will be an ugly picture for those who are younger and have already taken C60.

That is how we can understand whether C60 interferes with DNA, especially the nuclear one.

[AgeVivo]

The standard refrigerator freezer gets down to -15C or so. Which should be close enough.

Oh. Very true. I didn't realize. Next time. Good to know for people who start mprize at home

It seems to me that the mice are fat. As you know obesity is a risk factor for tumors and other diseases, too. If I were you I would decrease amount of food a little bit so as not to be accused of calorie restricted them.

Yes, it seems to me they are slightly fat too. I don't know if it is the oil and/or the food. I don't restrict them (except when they don't eat overnight before taking the treatment on bread) because it would be very difficult to manage at home.

Do the mice in these studies ever procreate? (...) something that might be important to humans considering taking it.

No they don't. Yes people should consider it. I second Clairvoyant.

Edited by AgeVivo, 28 October 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[AgeVivo]

Since the middle of the week, the 2 mice are 23 month old.

They look good, have a nice hair (except slowly loose hair on the nose, perhaps by friction against the tip of drinking bottle; as it often happen in standard labs), they play and climb though not as much as what they used to one or two months ago (it looks more as if they were more prudent; but when I force them to climb on something difficult in order to catch a piece of corn flakes for exemple, they tend to fall quite easily; their movements are then more as if their nails/toes were shorter/weaker, or if their sense of equilibrium was not as good)

As usual I've changed the cage tonight and will feed them tomorrow morning with C60 in olive oil on bread. Here is a picture while changing cage and 2 pictures just after.
 2mice1_041112.JPG   103.64KB   5 downloads  2mice2_041112.JPG   316.35KB   8 downloads  mouse_041112.JPG   111.14KB   6 downloads


Of note to complete last post,

Do the mice in these studies ever procreate? (...) something that might be important to humans considering taking it.

No they don't. Yes people should consider it. I second Clairvoyant.

I meant that researchers in a lab may want to study impact on birth and certainly other things. But I imagine that is very secondary (in time in particular) compared to checking if the life extension effect can be reproduced. For now the results I have seem between normal and good to me, but nothing conclusive (to me).

[tweedlover]

AgeVivo - can you remind us of what age you would expect the mice to live to for a clear replication of Baati's study? Are you looking for their median lifespan - 42 months?

[Mind]

Remember that Baati used Wistar RATS. We are not getting any clear replication of Baati with any of the animal "experiments" being posted here in the forums, but it is still better than nothing. I am sure there is some insight to be gained. At least it doesn't seem C60oo is toxic on short time scales, which most previous research also seems to confirm.

[tweedlover]

Got it - not a straight repetition.

But would definitely be interesting if we showed (significantly) above average lifespan for the strain of mice.

Lifespan varies widely with strain: for instance the one mouse who died at roughly 2 years would be in the top 15% of survivors of YBR / Eij but only the top 90% SJL/L
http://research.jax....LifeStudy2.html

Just wondering the strain so we can track how long they live versus the average - also an interesting result.