298 replies to this topic

[JohnD60]

I think you're all loopy on placebo effects. Colored olive oil to me, so far.

I'm all for whatever works! And I would think the rats would agree! It's definitely doing "something" though. And plenty of research and patents are turning up for various biological uses...so placebo is highly unlikely...and the effects I've felt are solid.

I have seen the patent applications mentioned before in this thread. People apply for speculative patents all the time, just because someone applied for a patent for using C60 to grow hair (or something else) does not mean that it actually grows hair (or something else). About 18 years ago i filed preliminary patent docs for using fullerenes as a mold making material (I eventually abandoned the application as the expected drop in the production cost of fullerenes did not occur). And I am not aware of significant amount of published research that C60 actually does anything specific.

[Hebbeh]

I think you're all loopy on placebo effects. Colored olive oil to me, so far.

I'm all for whatever works! And I would think the rats would agree! It's definitely doing "something" though. And plenty of research and patents are turning up for various biological uses...so placebo is highly unlikely...and the effects I've felt are solid.

I have seen the patent applications mentioned before in this thread. People apply for speculative patents all the time, just because someone applied for a patent for using C60 to grow hair (or something else) does not mean that it actually grows hair (or something else). About 18 years ago i filed preliminary patent docs for using fullerenes as a mold making material (I eventually abandoned the application as the expected drop in the production cost of fullerenes did not occur). And I am not aware of significant amount of published research that C60 actually does anything specific.

Patents aren't granted on a hunch...you have to demonstrate feasibility. Even your molds example apparently is possible....just not practical. As far as research, you may want to reread the main thread as numerous papers have been referenced.

[golden1]

Patents aren't granted on a hunch...you have to demonstrate feasibility

There are numerous examples of patents that are granted pretty much "on a hunch." But yes sure there are some studies on c60.

[niner]

Could you mix these with say piracetam or something? What does it take to meet the requirements for c60 to carry the molecule(this happens right?)? Depending on what you can have it carry besides olive oil components, maybe it would also facilitate the transport of other antioxidants/etc. Personally I'm thinking if the c60 do indeed carry molecules, which I thought was part of this and I know exists otherwise with molecules of other entrapment shapes than pure spheres(for example febreeze's active chemical), than it would be pretty interesting to maybe look into putting antioxidants or other low bioavailable things into the olive oil to increase their absorbtion and distribution. No idea how safe that is, but it seemed like an interesting avenue.

I don't think there is any evidence at all that a molecular C60 would entrap or otherwise improve the bioavailability of anything. I will guarantee you that no organic molecule will get inside the C60 sphere. That is sterically impossible. You might be able to get helium or hydrogen in, but that's about the limit. The endohedral compounds like gadolinium/c60 are made by synthesizing the c60 from a carbon/Gd mixture.

The reason that C60 has such a tight association with olive oil is because it reacts with it, forming a new compound. Once formed, they don't come apart.

[Lister]

As far as I know they were thinking of using C60 to deliver biologic and cancer drugs across biological barriers.

http://www.sciencedi...142961211015262

Considering we're only 1 MONTH into C60 being used by humans for medical purposes I'm sure all sorts of positive effects will be found... AND negative effects (let's face it...)

Fyi I'm back on C60 again. I'm thinking my results with C60 have something to do with my high metabolism or perhaps my age (28)... or both.

Seems weird that it's a hit or miss thing and those who find results often find similar results. I'm absolutely certain that these results are being magnified by the placebo effect however they are real.

There's probably some specific medical thing that separates those who experience a reaction to C60 and those that don't. Too bad we in the Lunatic Fringe can't pool our results in some sort of medical lab setting...

[niner]

As far as I know they were thinking of using C60 to deliver biologic and cancer drugs across biological barriers.

http://www.sciencedi...142961211015262

That's a derivatized fullerene that has a drug covalently linked to it. That's a different situation than we have.

There's probably some specific medical thing that separates those who experience a reaction to C60 and those that don't. Too bad we in the Lunatic Fringe can't pool our results in some sort of medical lab setting...

I think it's all down to the mitochondria. If your mitochondrial function is bad enough that it impacts your everyday life, then you get a big boost that you notice immediately. If you have healthy mitochondria and you don't regularly explore your limits, you don't notice anything. If you have healthy mitochondria and you know where your physical limits are, either from resistance exercise or from endurance exercise, you may see an effect. If we could all do lab work that characterized our redox status, we would probably see a signal in most or even all people.

[golden1]

So its nothing like this? http://en.wikipedia....ta-cyclodextrin
where it could trap molecules? And why does it bind to olive oil, also what else could it "bind" to and how(I'm assuming it isn't a tight bond at all, so it is basically a carrier...? just curious and dont want to dig for specific info in all these threads. Is it just that its umm.. fat soluable?

edit: for the lols,
what if you somehow replaced the benzene ring in amphetamine with a c60 sphere lmao.

Edited by golden1, 06 July 2012 - 04:42 PM.

[buckwheats]

lol c60 actually fits in cyclodextrin. one purification method of c60 from c70 takes advantage of that.

http://en.wikipedia....erene_chemistry
C₆₀ but not C₇₀ forms a 1:2 inclusion compound with cyclodextrin (CD).



as for fullerenes with things inside of them, those molecules seem to be referred to as Edohedral fullerenes.

http://en.wikipedia....dral_fullerenes

In 1998 a discovery drew large attention. With the synthesis of the Sc₃N@C₈₀, the inclusion of a molecule fragment in a fullerene cage had succeeded for the first time ... Sc₃N@C₈₀ which is better described as [Sc₃N]⁺⁶@[C₈₀]^-6

[golden1]

Ha very interesting.

[abelard lindsay]

I took the plunge and tried some C60 from the same source as Lister (Vaughter/C60 Anti Aging). After taking it I felt a slight irritation in my throat for a while.

I went to the gym about 2 hours later and was able to run a mile at a 5 mph pace. Even 4 mph is usually a struggle for me. I checked my pulse half way through and it was at 166 but I felt fine. Normally this heart rate would exhaust me rapidly.

Edited by abelard lindsay, 08 July 2012 - 01:03 AM.

[niner]

So its nothing like this? http://en.wikipedia....ta-cyclodextrin
where it could trap molecules? And why does it bind to olive oil, also what else could it "bind" to and how(I'm assuming it isn't a tight bond at all, so it is basically a carrier...? just curious and dont want to dig for specific info in all these threads. Is it just that its umm.. fat soluable?

edit: for the lols,
what if you somehow replaced the benzene ring in amphetamine with a c60 sphere lmao.

Nope, nothing like that. The hole in cyclodextrin is way bigger, and it's hydrophilic inside. C60 binds to olive oil because C60 is chemically reactive, particularly toward dienes but also toward some other species. The net result is that it gets covalently attached to the fatty acids in the olive oil. If it were mixed with other compounds for a long period of time, it's likely that it would react with some other things, if their chemistry was correct. The problem with reacting something the size of C60 with a drug is that the drug would no longer fit in its intended receptor. Amphetamine is a good example- if you replaced the benzene ring with C60, you would have a weirdly functionalized C60 without any amphetamine activity.

[JohnD60]

If we could all do lab work that characterized our redox status, we would probably see a signal in most or even all people.

What lab test would this be specifically? I live a mile for a lab, http://www.anylabtestnow.com and I would be willing to do a before and after dosing blood test if it does not require a doctor's script and cost a ton of money

[niner]

If we could all do lab work that characterized our redox status, we would probably see a signal in most or even all people.

What lab test would this be specifically? I live a mile for a lab, http://www.anylabtestnow.com and I would be willing to do a before and after dosing blood test if it does not require a doctor's script and cost a ton of money

Glutathione ratio comes to mind. I don't think that you'd find this at an ordinary doctor. There is an assay kit on the market that can do 200 tests, and costs $1000. It probably assumes you have access to a UV/VIS spectrophotometer, so it's not a DIY thing. It's the sort of test that you might find at a sophisticated anti-aging practice, or an academic lab. In principle it could be run for a not-insane amount of money, but that might be very hard to find.

[Lister]

I’ve now spent 4 days in the sun. It was hot and I was in it with no sun screen the whole weekend, Thursday and Friday.

Zero burns. I've gotten nothing but a deep rich tan. This worries me as my English heritage has blessed me with an easily burnt exterior; I should be red all over and peeling… I burn ages before my coworker and he was completely red days ago despite hiding in the shade the majority of the time.

Seriously I am not burning... All of my reactions thus far I can label some subjectivity to however this is a direct result for me. I spent at least 16 hours in direct sunlight with no sunscreen on hot clear days and I didn't burn anywhere. Weird...

Other than this the aches and pains have completely faded now and I’m left with no other effect. I did catch the flu yesterday and it lasted half a night however that again can easily be explained away.

On a side note my roommate (who has MS) started on SV C60-OO 1.5mg/day 4 days ago and she's had no reaction. We shall see...

[niner]

I’ve now spent 4 days in the sun. It was hot and I was in it with no sun screen the whole weekend, Thursday and Friday.

Zero burns. I've gotten nothing but a deep rich tan. This worries me as my English heritage has blessed me with an easily burnt exterior; I should be red all over and peeling… I burn ages before my coworker and he was completely red days ago despite hiding in the shade the majority of the time.

Wow. You aren't the first to note this, by the way. I have a nagging concern that you are still getting underlying UV damage, and just not seeing all of the effects. I'd use sunscreen anyway, just in case.

[platypus]

Glisodin supposedly protects the skin against sunburn. Perhaps C60 also does something to endogenous antioxidants, or works as one itself?

Edited by platypus, 09 July 2012 - 07:51 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

I'm going to halve my dose and see if the pain fades.

Lung and kidney pain is a serious enough symptom that I would stop entirely until it goes away. Then restart at the lower dose.

Wow, that doesn't sound good..

I ordered my C60 from a california lab, and it did not smell or anything. I have been taking very large doses compared to a couple people here, all without these strange effects... except for acid reflux in the evenings, which I took care of with baking soda.

hmm... sounds to me that maybe testing the C60 sources for chemicals maybe necessary.

A

[Anthony_Loera]

I took the plunge and tried some C60 from the same source as Lister (Vaughter/C60 Anti Aging). After taking it I felt a slight irritation in my throat for a while.

I went to the gym about 2 hours later and was able to run a mile at a 5 mph pace. Even 4 mph is usually a struggle for me. I checked my pulse half way through and it was at 166 but I felt fine. Normally this heart rate would exhaust me rapidly.

The irritation maybe the Olive Oil... some olive oils are a bit harsh and approach being spicy...

A

[Junk Master]

Imagine the benefit to mankind if C60 cures skin cancer. One in fifty will develop a melanoma by 2015. Over 90,000 deaths in the U.S. per year.

Again, the stuff has to be doing something because I don't believe the placebo effect can block UV light.

[niner]

I don't think it's blocking UV light, although it might do that a little, but mostly I think it's a free radical neutralizing effect. That might be just as good as absorbing the UV photons, in the end, and if it is stopping people from having peeling sunburns, then it is preventing the loss of apoptotically competent cells, which is one of the major things that leads to melanoma. I'd still avoid huge UV exposures, but this is a really nice outcome.

[Hebbeh]

I don't think it's blocking UV light, although it might do that a little, but mostly I think it's a free radical neutralizing effect. That might be just as good as absorbing the UV photons, in the end, and if it is stopping people from having peeling sunburns, then it is preventing the loss of apoptotically competent cells, which is one of the major things that leads to melanoma. I'd still avoid huge UV exposures, but this is a really nice outcome.

Is it possible that the all the UV caused RNA damage to the skin cells is still occuring and C60 is just blocking the painful inflammatory response (which is the defense mechanism to deal with the damage) and as such, would be counter productive in the long run?

http://www.scienceda...20708162244.htm

[niner]

Is it possible that the all the UV caused RNA damage to the skin cells is still occuring and C60 is just blocking the painful inflammatory response (which is the defense mechanism to deal with the damage) and as such, would be counter productive in the long run?

Well, that's my main concern about it. OTOH, it might be that C60 is mopping up free radicals created by the initial UV hit, and preventing a lot of the damage they do. I don't know. "more research needed"... (they always say that, even when it isn't needed. In this case, I think it is.) We do have a whole stable of DNA damage repair enzymes, so a little DNA damage doesn't necessarily kill us. I'm not sure about RNA- that's a bit of a new twist in UV response.

[abelard lindsay]

I don't think it's blocking UV light, although it might do that a little, but mostly I think it's a free radical neutralizing effect. That might be just as good as absorbing the UV photons, in the end, and if it is stopping people from having peeling sunburns, then it is preventing the loss of apoptotically competent cells, which is one of the major things that leads to melanoma. I'd still avoid huge UV exposures, but this is a really nice outcome.

Is it possible that the all the UV caused RNA damage to the skin cells is still occuring and C60 is just blocking the painful inflammatory response (which is the defense mechanism to deal with the damage) and as such, would be counter productive in the long run?

http://www.scienceda...20708162244.htm

This study claims anti-oxidants prevent UV caused DNA damage. There are also a whole bunch of related citations with similar findings.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22634149

Edited by abelard lindsay, 10 July 2012 - 06:23 AM.

[niner]

This study claims anti-oxidants prevent UV caused DNA damage. There are also a whole bunch of related citations with similar findings.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22634149

A key sentence from the abstract:

Both aromatic carotenoids also prevented oxidatively generated damage to DNA as demonstrated by a decrease in DNA strand breaks associated with the formation of oxidized DNA bases.

Thanks for this find, abelard. There's a ton of papers about UV photoprotection from various antioxidants, but this one demonstrates that the protection is more than skin deep, as it were. We've had a long history of antioxidants not doing crap to extend lifespan, throwing the whole free radical theory of aging into doubt at times. Now it looks like we have a super antioxidant that acts in a catalytic manner, and doesn't require chemical regeneration like a conventional antioxidant. Not only that, but it has the right hydrophobic characteristics to have an exceptionally long residence time in biological membranes, where it can really do some good. I don't think there's ever been an antioxidant, topical or otherwise, that works as good as a photoprotectant as this sounds like it's doing. Is some patent troll going to step in and hose us? Maybe if we're selling it, but probably not if we mix our own.

[Edgar]

As I postulated in the other log thread, I believe this anti-oxidant activity is unique because it's endogenous to the cells. Taking anti-oxidants orally can increase their presence in the bloodstream, but this has been shown to have little effect within the cell walls. So... something is happening as the C60 is spending time in the cell membranes that encourages SOD2 production.

This might sound really off the wall; but if this is the case then individuals taking C60 probably need to be sure they're getting enough manganese in their diet to enjoy the full effect.

[niner]

something is happening as the C60 is spending time in the cell membranes that encourages SOD2 production.

This might sound really off the wall; but if this is the case then individuals taking C60 probably need to be sure they're getting enough manganese in their diet to enjoy the full effect.

I don't think that C60 encourages SOD2 production at all; I've never heard any evidence to that effect. It's an antioxidant itself. If anything, I'd expect it to result in a reduction in SOD, since there would be fewer free radicals around to signal a need for more.

[Edgar]

I don't think that C60 encourages SOD2 production at all; I've never heard any evidence to that effect. It's an antioxidant itself. If anything, I'd expect it to result in a reduction in SOD, since there would be fewer free radicals around to signal a need for more.

I think this is part of the mechanism of increased SOD2 production. The free radicals attach to the C60, yet we believe that the C60 can hang around within lipid membranes for extended periods; this represents something of a concentration of ROS molecules. While in this state they may not pose a danger; but the cells may be reacting to their presence anyway.

This accounts for the theory that the C60 is acting as a catalyst. The continuing effect long after dosing correlates with the extended period it would take to eliminate the C60 from the body.

SOD is a couple orders of magnitude more effective at dealing with endogenous hydrogen peroxide. C60's anti-oxidant mechanism is merely to grab individual ROS molecules and hold them - and it has a finite number of attachment points to do this with. It simply does not have enough attachment points to account for the extended effects.

Are there any reported effects from C60 that can not be explained by a dramatic reduction in hydrogen peroxide levels within the cells?

Yes, I've jumped to a conclusion; but this stone didn't wiggle much when I landed on it.

[tintinet]

I'm going to halve my dose and see if the pain fades.

Lung and kidney pain is a serious enough symptom that I would stop entirely until it goes away. Then restart at the lower dose.

Wow, that doesn't sound good..

I ordered my C60 from a california lab, and it did not smell or anything. I have been taking very large doses compared to a couple people here, all without these strange effects... except for acid reflux in the evenings, which I took care of with baking soda.

hmm... sounds to me that maybe testing the C60 sources for chemicals maybe necessary.

A

All I've experience is reflux. Thought I had it cured until I started taking C60 OO recently. Ouch.

Edited by tintinet, 10 July 2012 - 05:29 PM.

[zorba990]

I'm going to halve my dose and see if the pain fades.

Lung and kidney pain is a serious enough symptom that I would stop entirely until it goes away. Then restart at the lower dose.

Wow, that doesn't sound good..

I ordered my C60 from a california lab, and it did not smell or anything. I have been taking very large doses compared to a couple people here, all without these strange effects... except for acid reflux in the evenings, which I took care of with baking soda.

hmm... sounds to me that maybe testing the C60 sources for chemicals maybe necessary.

A

All I've experience is reflux. Thought I had it cured until I started taking C60 OO recently. Ouch.

Is there any reason not to separate the large doses into a few smaller doses? Seems like the large amount of oil might just be preventing the esophageal sphincter from being able to close with a proper seal (remember the olestra effect on the opposite end?) due to the volume of oil temporarily sitting there. Other things might be emulsifying the oil with some lecithin to aid digestion if the body cannot produce or squeeze out enough bile fast enough (if that is the issue).

[tintinet]

I've been taking relatively small doses (2 ml or so) at a time, but still have reflux. Could be unrelated, but I've been reflux free for several years, until just recently.