298 replies to this topic

[niner]

But what can we extrapolate from that dosing frequency? What do we know about typical adaptive compensation? Why was that schedule picked in the first place?

I'm not sure if we can take anything from it, to be honest, other than the fact that it worked pretty well for Wistar rats. This was a tox study, so essentially they were trying to induce some observable pathology in the rats. First they loaded them up with a huge dose for a week, to look for acute effects and serve as a loading dose. Then they reduced the frequency to simulate a chronic exposure.

As far as coming up with a human dose, in this case I would scale the mg/kg dose used in Baati by 1/6, the rat-to-human rule of thumb. I often question the rationale of allometric scaling, but in this case, the metabolic rate differences are particularly relevant. Such a scaling would result in a 0.3mg/kg target. I kind of like the idea of a loading dose followed by longer dosing intervals, but I'm not sure I'd want to go as radical as Baati did. The one thing that I would definitely change, compared to Baati, is I wouldn't stop after seven months and never take it again. I think that periodic re-dosing is going to be needed. It would be nice if we had a biomarker that could tell us exactly how often to re-dose. I speculate that glutathione ratio might work for that, but it remains to be shown. We might be able to figure something out by monitoring our aerobic and anaerobic endurance, and possibly our photosensitivity. If these things start falling off to pre-supplementation levels, that would be a pretty good indication that either we're being struck down by a hideous disease caused by our rash consumption of rare carbon allotropes, or we need to top up.

[Logic]

...We might be able to figure something out by monitoring our aerobic and anaerobic endurance, and possibly our photosensitivity...

Just to recap; aerobic and anaerobic endurance seems to drop off after 3 to 4 days right?

[Junk Master]

I don't even think we know if aerobic and anaerobic endurance drops of in 3-4 days. In Turnbuckle's case, there was an immediate increase then no subsequent increase. In my case, without a loading dose and without mitochondrial damage, I continue to feel gains in strength and endurance with a 1.5 mg dose a day-- of course that could be placebo effect, and could be from training harder than usual because of the placebo effect.

Any speculation on hideous diseases?

[Turnbuckle]

I don't even think we know if aerobic and anaerobic endurance drops of in 3-4 days. In Turnbuckle's case, there was an immediate increase then no subsequent increase.

I wouldn't say that. There was an immediate increase in endurance after a few hours (from a very low statin-damaged level), but I wasn't running four miles at that point. And I'm still not to the point I was thirty years ago when I could run ten miles at a clip, but I hope to get there. As for liver health (as judged by alcohol tolerance) the improvement was a bit more gradual, but over three months it steadily got better and is now better than it ever was at any age. My high cholesterol level took a nosedive but then gradually rose again to what it was before I started. I need to measure it again as I haven't in a while.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 23 July 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[Logic]

Hmmm... Someone mentioned 3-4 days. Pity there isnt any consensus on this.

[Junk Master]

Thanks for the correction, Turnbuckle. I'd have to concur with the increased alcohol tolerance, though I'm not sure if that can be attributed to liver health-- I sure hope so.

[Turnbuckle]

...We might be able to figure something out by monitoring our aerobic and anaerobic endurance, and possibly our photosensitivity...

Just to recap; aerobic and anaerobic endurance seems to drop off after 3 to 4 days right?

Could you quote what you're recapping?

[tintinet]

I don't even think we know if aerobic and anaerobic endurance drops of in 3-4 days. In Turnbuckle's case, there was an immediate increase then no subsequent increase. In my case, without a loading dose and without mitochondrial damage, I continue to feel gains in strength and endurance with a 1.5 mg dose a day-- of course that could be placebo effect, and could be from training harder than usual because of the placebo effect.

Any speculation on hideous diseases?

On the positive side, my workouts do seem to be easier lately, and I'm having another great hair day!

On the negative side, I seem to be developing scintillating scotoma. I have an optometry appointment pending. Likely unrelated to C60, I think. About a year or so ago I discovered, one snowy day, that I had visual snow, but I had to work hard to perceive it and haven't noticed it since then.

[Logic]

Could you quote what you're recapping?

Sadly not Turnbuckle.
I just recall reading that somewhere here and was hoping that person would confirm this finding.
Its probably in one of the logs somewhere.

[zorba990]

I don't even think we know if aerobic and anaerobic endurance drops of in 3-4 days. In Turnbuckle's case, there was an immediate increase then no subsequent increase. In my case, without a loading dose and without mitochondrial damage, I continue to feel gains in strength and endurance with a 1.5 mg dose a day-- of course that could be placebo effect, and could be from training harder than usual because of the placebo effect.

Any speculation on hideous diseases?

On the positive side, my workouts do seem to be easier lately, and I'm having another great hair day!

On the negative side, I seem to be developing scintillating scotoma. I have an optometry appointment pending. Likely unrelated to C60, I think. About a year or so ago I discovered, one snowy day, that I had visual snow, but I had to work hard to perceive it and haven't noticed it since then.

I have a theory on this (scintillating scotoma). I had this years ago, and again recently. Turned out I was mercury toxic (long story) and also very magnesium deficient. I worked hard to get my magnesium status back up and since then and haven't had it in years. So why did it come back recently? I recently started experimenting with Liposomal Glutathione to further increase detox of metals if needed. So my theory is that Glutathione pulls mercury, including some that is sitting on magnesium receptors. Blood magnesium rushes to the newly freed receptors, since the glutathione bound mercury no longer is on there. Magnesium level temporarily plummets and thus the scintillating scotoma (actually doc said it was 'opthalmic migraine' for me but it sounds similar) returns.

I increased magnesium and the issue went away again. Just a wild theory but maybe C60 frees up glutathione because C60 is doing such a great job mopping up radicals-->the glutathione can start pulling out mercury and other metals ---> temporary magnesium deficiency.

Edited by zorba990, 23 July 2012 - 06:42 PM.

[JohnD60]

Hmmm... Someone mentioned 3-4 days. Pity there isnt any consensus on this.

I would say that the most common response is no response, it is just that people that experience a response like increased stamina post about it frequently. But people like myself that do not experience increased stamina don't post often about their non response.

[AgeVivo]

over three months it steadily got better

haven't been in this thread and reading this; did you start c60 before the c60 paper was published?

[Turnbuckle]

over three months it steadily got better

haven't been in this thread and reading this; did you start c60 before the c60 paper was published?

I rounded up. It is presently 4 days shy of three months since my first dose.

[tintinet]

I don't even think we know if aerobic and anaerobic endurance drops of in 3-4 days. In Turnbuckle's case, there was an immediate increase then no subsequent increase. In my case, without a loading dose and without mitochondrial damage, I continue to feel gains in strength and endurance with a 1.5 mg dose a day-- of course that could be placebo effect, and could be from training harder than usual because of the placebo effect.

Any speculation on hideous diseases?

On the positive side, my workouts do seem to be easier lately, and I'm having another great hair day!

On the negative side, I seem to be developing scintillating scotoma. I have an optometry appointment pending. Likely unrelated to C60, I think. About a year or so ago I discovered, one snowy day, that I had visual snow, but I had to work hard to perceive it and haven't noticed it since then.

I have a theory on this (scintillating scotoma). I had this years ago, and again recently. Turned out I was mercury toxic (long story) and also very magnesium deficient. I worked hard to get my magnesium status back up and since then and haven't had it in years. So why did it come back recently? I recently started experimenting with Liposomal Glutathione to further increase detox of metals if needed. So my theory is that Glutathione pulls mercury, including some that is sitting on magnesium receptors. Blood magnesium rushes to the newly freed receptors, since the glutathione bound mercury no longer is on there. Magnesium level temporarily plummets and thus the scintillating scotoma (actually doc said it was 'opthalmic migraine' for me but it sounds similar) returns.

I increased magnesium and the issue went away again. Just a wild theory but maybe C60 frees up glutathione because C60 is doing such a great job mopping up radicals-->the glutathione can start pulling out mercury and other metals ---> temporary magnesium deficiency.

Thanks for the information and theory. I think there's some debate about whether SS is a migrane or vasospasm or arises from some other mechanism, but migrane seems to be the most common attribution. I'll give magnesium a try to see if helps.

[Turnbuckle]

On the positive side, my workouts do seem to be easier lately, and I'm having another great hair day!

On the negative side, I seem to be developing scintillating scotoma. I have an optometry appointment pending. Likely unrelated to C60, I think. About a year or so ago I discovered, one snowy day, that I had visual snow, but I had to work hard to perceive it and haven't noticed it since then.

I've gotten that twice from eating too much chocolate (though not recently). It went away after I drank a lot of water.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 23 July 2012 - 09:54 PM.

[niner]

Hmmm... Someone mentioned 3-4 days. Pity there isnt any consensus on this.

I would say that the most common response is no response, it is just that people that experience a response like increased stamina post about it frequently. But people like myself that do not experience increased stamina don't post often about their non response.

I've been keeping track of what people are reporting. People who mention improvements in stamina/endurance, either aerobic or anaerobic are:
Lister
jg42122
Anthony Loera
Turnbuckle
Krell
Hebbeh
Allen Walters
Metrodorus
Lister's Roomate
Junk Master
Mark D
Sapentia

People who reported "nothing":
JohnD60
Carbon
tintinet
Happy Physicist
taho
Chicken12

People who said they are taking C60, but haven't reported results:
wccaguy
hav
Spider_
stephen_b

If you count the four people in the non-reporting group as "nothing", then it's about even between people who notice good results, and people who don't.

[Metrodorus]

What would be very useful, is to tabulate dosing regimen for each of these people, to see if there are any patterns.

[Logic]

I've been keeping track of what people are reporting...
...If you count the four people in the non-reporting group as "nothing", then it's about even between people who notice good results, and people who don't.

Good work Niner.
Did you make notes of their dosages and timing too?
I wonder about other supps they are taking? ie: synergies?

[Spider_]

During 20 days of taking 10-20mg C60 (99.9%) daily I experienced no perceived benefits at all.

Today I am starting 20mg (40ml C60/OO) of 99.95% C60 devided into morning and evening doses. I am planing to take this amount indefinitely and will report my findings.

[hav]

Hmmm... Someone mentioned 3-4 days. Pity there isnt any consensus on this.

I would say that the most common response is no response, it is just that people that experience a response like increased stamina post about it frequently. But people like myself that do not experience increased stamina don't post often about their non response.

I've been keeping track of what people are reporting. People who mention improvements in stamina/endurance, either aerobic or anaerobic are:
...

People who said they are taking C60, but haven't reported results:
wccaguy
hav
Spider_
stephen_b

If you count the four people in the non-reporting group as "nothing", then it's about even between people who notice good results, and people who don't.

Only just caught up reading this thread. My limited report on effects is in the other big thread but here's a link. My life and workout schedule is starting to stabilize again and I think I'll have a better idea about any endurance changes in a week or two. For now I'm more in a "don't know" group.

Howard

[hav]

But what can we extrapolate from that dosing frequency? What do we know about typical adaptive compensation? Why was that schedule picked in the first place?

... As far as coming up with a human dose, in this case I would scale the mg/kg dose used in Baati by 1/6, the rat-to-human rule of thumb. I often question the rationale of allometric scaling, but in this case, the metabolic rate differences are particularly relevant.

I thought scaling based on metabolic differences was only applicable to something being metabolized. Like the olive oil itself. But the C60 seems to be retained for a long period of time. Perhaps it took the entire period from the time dosage stopped until the rats died for it to be cleared to a level below effectiveness. If that's the case, perhaps the only appropriate adjustment would be for differences in relative body composition like bone to tissue ratio which I would expect to be higher for larger animals.

Howard

[hav]

WRT to the dosing issue, here's some of what's posted at SV's website:

"Source for the olive oil: Zeta Extra virgin Originale. Expiry date 13/05/2013 (the C60 will greatly extend this date)
... With a human dose of 4 mg/day every day and taking allometric dosing into account, a person of average weight (70 kg/154 lbs.) will ingest the same qty. C60 as the rats did, adjusted for weight, on average, per day. However, the original LD50 study tried to poison the rats with C60, so it is likely that the longevity effect will be attained at lower dosages as well. Since people will take this every day for years, we advise a 1.5 mg daily dose. The rats were given 24 doses over a period of 7 months. If a person were to treat him/herself similarly, treatment should continue for 15 years, 20% of the lifespan of a human being. Read more about C60 dosing here..."

Allometric scaling aside, I'm also wondering about the logic behind relative lifetime scaling of the larger initial dosages. If the C60 is slow to clear from cell membranes, I would expect that after appropriate mass scaling of the dosage that both humans and rats would reach the same relative cellular levels at similar times. And that the smaller doses that followed would just be for level maintenance.

Howard

[niner]

]... As far as coming up with a human dose, in this case I would scale the mg/kg dose used in Baati by 1/6, the rat-to-human rule of thumb. I often question the rationale of allometric scaling, but in this case, the metabolic rate differences are particularly relevant.

I thought scaling based on metabolic differences was only applicable to something being metabolized. Like the olive oil itself. But the C60 seems to be retained for a long period of time. Perhaps it took the entire period from the time dosage stopped until the rats died for it to be cleared to a level below effectiveness. If that's the case, perhaps the only appropriate adjustment would be for differences in relative body composition like bone to tissue ratio which I would expect to be higher for larger animals.

I was thinking that ROS production would be proportional to metabolic rate, so the rats might make more ROS per kg than us. There are a lot of other factors though, like presence of endogenous antioxidants and ratio of membranes and other lipid depots to total body weight. It's a pretty rough estimate. We're seeing some reports of significant effects at doses of only a couple milligrams, which might be a sufficient dose. We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Baati was trying to induce toxicity in the rats with those huge doses.

[Lister]

I haven't updated this for awhile so here we go...

I'm about to start on my third bottle of C60 and my second bottle of Resveratrol. My roommate is on the same stack and things are going well. Both of us are reacting about the same way; increased energy and that’s about it.

When I took C60 initially I had a sudden boost in my energy levels. Thus far it feels as though I’ve had no change from that. It is as though C60 has a limit in terms of how much it can improve your cardio performance. This limit rises very quickly and then holds for as long as you keep taking C60.

I mentioned in the past that I stopped taking C60 for a few days to see if I could escape from it without any negative effects. When I did that my energy levels returned to their normal levels after about 6 days or so. Without accurate info I can’t say for sure but it felt as though I was at a normal energy level after 6 days.

Most of the dramatic reactions to C60 have faded now (if they existed at all) and thus all I’m left with is the overall increased cardio performance. I just feel more energetic overall. It makes me feel good. Is that a bad thing? Hmm...

I sweat more readily and as a result I’ve noticed some acne here and there but nothing dramatic. Reading Edgar’s post I really have to sympathize with him regarding skin reactions. Both of us seem to have healthier skin; more noticeable in her than in me. I haven’t gotten burnt; my roommate though is another issue.

When I informed her about the almost UV protective effects of C60 she took that and went right out and got a giant sun burn. It took her longer than it would normally to get burnt however she recovered faster. She also peeled pretty badly too.

The Resveratrol seems to be a good paring with C60. I noticed a slight increase in my Energy levels over and above the C60 effect a few days after starting Resveratrol. C60 improves my energy levels and Resveratrol makes me feel refreshed and alert. The effects of Resveratrol are quite a lot less dramatic than C60.

The increased Energy I get with C60+Resveratrol is addictive. I look forward to taking both C60 and Resveratrol every morning. I’m still at the 2mg/day for C60 and my Resveratrol dose is a pretty average one; I’ll find it and post it when I have it.

Does anyone know of some of the better sources of Resveratrol? There seems to be a lot of sources.

[niner]

I mentioned in the past that I stopped taking C60 for a few days to see if I could escape from it without any negative effects. When I did that my energy levels returned to their normal levels after about 6 days or so. Without accurate info I can’t say for sure but it felt as though I was at a normal energy level after 6 days.

Thanks for the update, Lister. This is a particularly interesting bit, since it tells us something about the rate that C60 leaves the mitochondrial membrane, at least in the world of that particular functional hypothesis. Your dose of 2mg/d keeps you at a high enough level to see benefits, but doesn't saturate the membrane such that it would take months or years to clear. From the reports I've seen, benefits don't increase with dose. We have people taking various doses from 1mg to 130mg, and the reports of noticeable changes are distributed utterly randomly. I suspect that the people on higher doses, at least those that are seeing some effects, would eventually see the effects go away, but it would take longer. If we could get enough people running a 'stopping' experiment like you did, we could test this hypothesis and potentially get a value for C60-oo membrane exit kinetics.

[Turnbuckle]

When I informed her about the almost UV protective effects of C60 she took that and went right out and got a giant sun burn. It took her longer than it would normally to get burnt however she recovered faster. She also peeled pretty badly too.

It's possible that C60 has no sun protection value at all, that it's all in the olive oil carrier that makes the skin oilier than it would be. The skin's natural oils have a spf rating equal to weak suntan lotion--as much as 8.

[Edgar]

It's possible that C60 has no sun protection value at all, that it's all in the olive oil carrier that makes the skin oilier than it would be. The skin's natural oils have a spf rating equal to weak suntan lotion--as much as 8.

Based on my experience, that sounds perfectly plausible.

[niner]

It's possible that C60 has no sun protection value at all, that it's all in the olive oil carrier that makes the skin oilier than it would be. The skin's natural oils have a spf rating equal to weak suntan lotion--as much as 8.

Based on my experience, that sounds perfectly plausible.

Do you mean that consuming a daily dose of olive oil that would correspond to the dose that some people here are reporting photoprotection from, i.e. about a teaspoon of oil, would provide a noticeable level of photoprotection? Based on my experience, that doesn't happen.

[Turnbuckle]

It's possible that C60 has no sun protection value at all, that it's all in the olive oil carrier that makes the skin oilier than it would be. The skin's natural oils have a spf rating equal to weak suntan lotion--as much as 8.

Based on my experience, that sounds perfectly plausible.

Do you mean that consuming a daily dose of olive oil that would correspond to the dose that some people here are reporting photoprotection from, i.e. about a teaspoon of oil, would provide a noticeable level of photoprotection? Based on my experience, that doesn't happen.

The stories here are vague and hit-and-miss. I've been taking a tablespoon of late and noticed a good deal more oil on my skin. Some have reported zits, which would also be the result of more oil. And some are taking a lot more than a tablespoon. So yeah, on average I'd expect some extra UV protection from the oil alone, but not much and not very consistently.

[niner]

Do you mean that consuming a daily dose of olive oil that would correspond to the dose that some people here are reporting photoprotection from, i.e. about a teaspoon of oil, would provide a noticeable level of photoprotection? Based on my experience, that doesn't happen.

The stories here are vague and hit-and-miss. I've been taking a tablespoon of late and noticed a good deal more oil on my skin. Some have reported zits, which would also be the result of more oil. And some are taking a lot more than a tablespoon. So yeah, on average I'd expect some extra UV protection from the oil alone, but not much and not very consistently.

These days I try to get two tablespoons of good EVOO daily. I can't say that I notice much difference in skin oil. I wouldn't say that the reports of photoprotection were vague. They seem pretty clear cut. It's not a 100% protection, but it sounds like it's pretty good.