271 replies to this topic

[X_Danny_X]

Nephrotoxic?


I want to combine Pr Spray along with D-Serine, it is from Patrick Arnolds line of work. Very intelligent man when it comes to making products to help build muscle. D-Asperic Acid is overhype when it comes to making muscle. In fact, it wont help much at all imo.

Pr Spray provides pregnenolone in a sustained release form, aiding in a host of natural processes enhancing hormone and brain function.
Pregnenolone is a hormone naturally produced in the body. It is synthesized in the adrenals and gonads where it serves as a precursor to all the steroid hormones – DHEA, testosterone, progesterone, estrogen, cortisol, aldosterone and others.

Pregnenolone is also synthesized in the brain and central nervous system, where it acts (directly and as the sulfate) as a neurosteroid. As a neurosteroid it serves a variety of functions – most notably as an enhancer of NMDA activity and suppressor of GABA activity. This may in part be responsible for its purported memory enhancement, mood elevating, and energizing activities.
Pr Spray provides pregnenolone in a sustained release form for maximum round the clock bioactivity.

[gbpackers]

I am currently taking the following:

D-serine: 1.5g tid
PR Spray: 10 sprays tid
Pramiracetam: 50g tid
Fish oil: 2-4g
Creatine: 5g tid
Beta Alanine: 1g tid
Taurine: 500mg
Gingko: 70mg
Nutrigold Bacopa: 1 cap tid
Now foods rhodiola: 1 cap
Theanine: 200-400mg daily

I take the first dose of all those first thing an hour before I start studying and it seems to energize and calm me all at once. I like the effect and I'm good to go for 3 hours after I take it. After 2 hours I will take 50mg more of pramiracetam.
So far so good.. no negative effects, feel energized and quicker while studying.
I plan on adding D-AA either tomorrow or sunday also

Edited by gbpackers, 08 September 2012 - 03:09 AM.

[timjeezy]

Just stumbled across this full text-pdf, (2006) "D-Serine signalling in the brain: friend and foe"

http://www.dbsm.unin...6_martineau.pdf
http://www.dbsm.unin...6_martineau.pdf

Many of the points in this article have been mentioned already, but at the very least there are some nice illustrations

[ScienceGuy]

For those of you who are on D-Serine or have plans of taking it...

...the substance is somewhat nephrotoxic, in a dose-dependent fashion.

Please can you kindly clarify what specifically is the therapeutic dosage range and at what dosage NEPHROTOXICITY commences (obviously dependant on body weight)

Specifically, is there a therapeutic dosage wherein no NEPHROTOXICITY exists?

[unbeatableking]

^

Before that, I want to know: did you really spend $16,000 to get a lab to synthesize Colouracetam?

I hope you don't mind me asking, but what do you do for a living? O_O

Anyways, as per your question, the literature seems to say that anything below 10 grams a day is safe.

The nephrotoxicity associated with D-Serine use above 10 grams is also temporary, and goes away after discontinuation.

[unbeatableking]

METHODS:

Thirty-one Taiwanese schizophrenic patients enrolled in a 6-week double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of D-serine (30 mg/kg/day), which was added to their stable antipsychotic regimens. Of these, 28 completed the trial. Measures of clinical efficacy, side effects, and serum levels of amino acids and D-serine were determined every other week. Wisconsin Card Sorting Test (WCST) was performed at the beginning and end of the trial.
RESULTS:

Patients who received D-serine treatment revealed significant improvements in their positive, negative, and cognitive symptoms as well as some performance in WCST. D-serine levels at week 4 and 6 significantly predicted the improvements. D-serine was well tolerated and no significant side effects were noted.

There were no safety issues at doses <120 mg/kg. At the 120 mg/kg dose, 1 subject showed 2+ proteinuria without glycosuria during the final week of treatment with no significant change in creatinine that resolved following D-serine discontinuation. Two patients in the 120 mg/kg phase were discontinued from this study for asymptomatic transaminitis, which resolved completely. Two additional subjects withdrew consent for reported side effects (insomnia after one dose and GI distress) in the 120 mg/kg phase

At 120 mg/kg, the average upper limit for most individuals seems to be 9 to 10 grams per day.

Given that this dosing scheme is unnecessary and that number two, it is extremely expensive, I see no reason why anyone would want to go above 5 grams.

[unbeatableking]

Ok, this is odd.

It floored me the first time I took it. Fell asleep.

But I went through right about the same thing Zrbarnes did. As I slept, I thought about my life and how my decisions have impacted myself and those around me.

[ScienceGuy]

...the literature seems to say that anything below 10 grams a day is safe.

The nephrotoxicity associated with D-Serine use above 10 grams is also temporary, and goes away after discontinuation.

That's good news. Thank you for clarifying. So it looks like the potential for NEPHROTOXICITY is not in any way really an issue for HEALTHY individuals...

Do you think with regards to individuals suffering from pre-existing IMPAIRED RENAL FUNCTION that they should employ caution when taking D-SERINE or perhaps avoid taking it entirely?

At 120 mg/kg, the average upper limit for most individuals seems to be 9 to 10 grams per day.

Given that this dosing scheme is unnecessary and that number two, it is extremely expensive, I see no reason why anyone would want to go above 5 grams.

Good to know

Ok, this is odd.

It floored me the first time I took it. Fell asleep...

Interesting...

What dosage did you take? And what time did you take it?

Please kindly keep us all posted with regards to whether the SEDATION that you have experienced dissipates over time with repeated use or whether it persists... maybe this stuff could come in handy as a SLEEP AID

[unbeatableking]

People with impaired renal functioning should definitely avoid any supplements of any sort. This supplement in particular.

I believe I took around 2, possibly 3 grams?

Might have had something to do with the bell-curve associated with most supplements. I will drop down to a gram and see if it changes.

Will do so right now. So stick around.

[unbeatableking]

Scienceguy, I took a gram. I feel fine. No drowsiness.

Yes. Definitely took too much during my first try.

I also have a bulk Sarcosine on hand.

In addition to TF2 (The DAA + Sarcosine blend).

I do not want to take any of them together, as I want to gauge the effects of D-serine on its own.

What is odd is that the substance has a stabilizing influence. Kind of uncommon for an NMDA-agonist, no? I feel calm.

Might explain its efficacy amongst schizophrenics.

Edited by unbeatableking, 10 September 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[unbeatableking]

This is weird.

The stuff has definitely stabilized my behavior and my thought processes. I don't feel like a raging asshole anymore.

The need to run out and jump around every so often has also dissipated.

Which has me thinking: do I suffer from an NMDA-receptor rooted dysfunction? For once in a long time I actually feel normal.

Anyways, back to the science:

I see studies positing that not only is sarcosine (n-methyl-glycine) a glycine reuptake inhibitor, it might also be a co-agonist on the NMDA-receptor itself. Which has me thinking, wouldn't it be counterproductive to combine this supplement with D-serine?

In theory their MOA's should be competitive, as they do share the same binding site.

[unbeatableking]

I am going to create a log that will detail my experiences on D-Serine. It is probably going to be the first of its kind. (Looked through the internet, no other logs of any sort done on D-serine, save for those found in Schizophrenia forums).

I am also going to take Test Force 2 with this substance. I am a bodybuilder in addition to being a student.

Seeing as not everyone here is interested in the endocrinological ramifications of this stack, I am going to post my bodybuilding-rooted purviews on a separate forum.

Here are some initial notes on D-serine as a stand-alone supplement:

1. There is indeed a sense of focus to the substance. I feel normal to some extent. Which leads me to believe that D-serine is indeed a legitimate NMDA-receptor potentiator.

2. Taking more than two grams at once can be sedating.

3. I would put the half-life to be somewhere around four hours. Three at the last.

Edited by unbeatableking, 10 September 2012 - 11:42 AM.

[unbeatableking]

Whoah. Just took Sarcosine.

Mother of god the synergy is strong.

Edited by unbeatableking, 10 September 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[Psionic]

Whoah. Just took Sarcosine.

Mother of god the synergy is strong.

And in what way? Please describe..

[unbeatableking]

The focus brought upon by the co-administration of D-serine and Sarcosine is undeniable.

I am somewhat wary however, seeing as that in theory, the both of them should have competing MOA's.

Do note that I had used the term co-adminstration, so there is a possibility that this sudden rush in attention and to some extent, energy, might have been brought upon by the consumption of sarcosine alone.

And it sort of makes sense. Apart from being an agonist, it is also a reuptake inhibitor.

There are studies to back up the assumption that sarcosine is superior to D-serine, but mostly within cases involving pathological issues.

I've yet to see a sarcosine study done within the purview of improving memory alone in normal populations, even amongst rats.

[unbeatableking]

I would have to argue that seeing as the mode of action by which schizophrenia is attenuated involves the agonism of NMDA receptors, that any benefits seen in schizophrenic patients are semi-applicable to normal populations.

Ergo, the better the agonist, the better the symptom attenuation. The better the agonist, the better the nootropic.

Why am I bringing the D-Serine vs. Sarcosine issue up? Primarily because not everyone here can afford to purchase both supplements.

Although the general argument in favor of D-serine is that it is a much more potent agonist than glycine.

Edited by unbeatableking, 10 September 2012 - 12:58 PM.

[Psionic]

Thanks, we should test them separatelly in ideal situation and compare their effects, which will vary from user to user of course.. maybe there should be more synergy with DAA and pregnenolone.

[unbeatableking]

This is my current line of thought:

1. D-serine is a better co-agonist at NMDA-binding site.

2. Although Sarcosine is weaker at this task, it is hypothesized that sarcosine is in itself an independent agonist that is not analogous with glycine. Apart from that, it is also a glycine reuptake inhibitor.

So these are some questions which I feel need answering:

1. In the long run, which is a better NMDA-receptor co-agonist?

2. Might we encounter a synergy between the two substances?

As of now I am leaning towards Sarcosine.

[ScienceGuy]

Seriously interesting stuff unbeatableking

What do you think might be D-SERINE's mechanism of action with regards to inducing SEDATION at dosage of >2 grams? Does it also have a weak affinity for the GABA RECEPTORS or something?

[unbeatableking]

In hindsight, the sedation might've been a side-effect brought upon by taking it for the first time. I apologize for rushing to that conclusion.

I have taken another two grams. There is no sedation to be mentioned.

[unbeatableking]

Hmm.

Here is my recommendation for the cash-strapped, the neophytes and the wary.

Try Sarcosine first. It is cheaper and it seems to be more effective than d-serine from a theoretical standpoint.

Irish MD tells me that he has used it with much success.

D-serine is much more expensive as of now because it is relatively new in the market. Most anecdotal reports speak of increases in mood and energy, but that has left me unconvinced.

[health_nutty]

I just ordered d-serine. I'll report back.

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2

[unbeatableking]

^

Did you read my posts? If you did, you'd know that it isn't really a good idea.

Just looking out for the others here. O_O

[health_nutty]

^

Did you read my posts? If you did, you'd know that it isn't really a good idea.

Just looking out for the others here. O_O

I read you post after I ordered. FYI, I didn't realize Sarcosine was easily available and so cheap.

I read your other posts and don't quite get your conclusion "it isn't really a good idea" based on your previous posts.

Can you elaborate a bit? Do you think it is not effective, dangerous, or that Sarcosine gives better bang for the buck?

[CIMN]

This is my current line of thought:

1. D-serine is a better co-agonist at NMDA-binding site.

2. Although Sarcosine is weaker at this task, it is hypothesized that sarcosine is in itself an independent agonist that is not analogous with glycine. Apart from that, it is also a glycine reuptake inhibitor.

So these are some questions which I feel need answering:

1. In the long run, which is a better NMDA-receptor co-agonist?

2. Might we encounter a synergy between the two substances?

As of now I am leaning towards Sarcosine.

at this point I'm confused hahaha or maybe just try d-aspartic acid+d serine+sarcosine?
why not just add them all together?

[unbeatableking]

I have tried both.

D-serine isn't as effective as Sarcosine from a performance perspective IMO. Kills my verbal ability, it also has a slight inhibitory effect to it.

Sarcosine is different. It energizes me. IMO, theoretically it seems like the better alternative.

Not trying to sound like a know-it-all. I just want to help inform people here so they don't end up spending their money on something they will only end up regretting.

Logically, you don't want to take more than four to five things at a time. It isn't cost-effective, neither is it safe.

Just choose either of the two. I think people are overdoing it by combining DAA + Sarcosine and D-Serine.

This is me saving you guys money. I'm not as loaded as ScienceGuy but I hope I did my part.

Here are some notes however:

1. If you aren't a student, and you want to take something to stabilize your mood and/or your behavior. Perhaps you're impulsive and quick to act, then I recommend D-serine.

2. I have not experienced a memory boost as a result of d-serine supplementation. Sarcosine is helpful as it energizes me, in addition to providing for all of the other positives mentioned above.

3. I recommend starting with Sarcosine. If you like it then you can try D-serine.

[CIMN]

3. I recommend starting with Sarcosine. If you like it then you can try D-serine.

ok, perhaps i will try one and the other and compare the two..
it was a bit confusing to me, since this thread is mainly about d-serine, so i presumed that we should stick with that?

[unbeatableking]

^

Unbeatableking cares for his fellow man. <3 Just a word of advice. <3

Both have similar MOA's, so I don't see any reason why we can't discuss the two together.

[health_nutty]

Here are some notes however:

1. If you aren't a student, and you want to take something to stabilize your mood and/or your behavior. Perhaps you're impulsive and quick to act, then I recommend D-serine.

2. I have not experienced a memory boost as a result of d-serine supplementation. Sarcosine is helpful as it energizes me, in addition to providing for all of the other positives mentioned above.

3. I recommend starting with Sarcosine. If you like it then you can try D-serine.

Thanks, that was helpful. Next time I'll try Sarcosine (it *is* CHEAP!)

[unbeatableking]

^