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NADH again. Impressive results

nadh fatigue

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#1 mitomutant

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 09:29 AM


After reading some posts about the positive effects of NADH supplementation on energy levels, I decided to give a try a couple of weeks ago. I have taken NADH only twice (last two Saturdays) I must say the effects are impressive: Lots of (physical) energy without any jitter and without any breakdown effect. Effects lasts the whole day to me. I have taken 10mg sub-lingual both times, same brand (ENADA).

I can safely say that there is no placebo effect here. After years of battling with my intermittent fatigue, I can clearly distinguish real vs placebo effect.

Now, after reading this I am somehow worried about long term effects.

I plan to take it on weekends only. For some reason - I believe work stress related - my energy levels are usually very low during weekends and having 2 kids make this a terrible combination.

Finally, note that my electron transport chain is broken since I was born (single deletion mutation in my mitochondrial DNA). This could explain why this works so well for me, but please take this also into account when replying to this post.

I would greatly appreciate your comments about this.

Thanks.

#2 mitomutant

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 09:28 AM

Morning stack:
- Coffee + 15ml coconut oil + 10g whey iso
- Ubiquinol 100mg
- Multi (1/2 ortho core)
- 1.5 grams EPA+DHA
- 2000 Vit. D3
- NADH 10mg

NADH is the only new addtion in the last 2-3 months.

Third Saturday in a row. Same results. 90 minutes non-stop swimming: No sign of fatigue, feeling really great.

Anyone have had similar experiences with this ?

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#3 niner

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 09:04 PM

Finally, note that my electron transport chain is broken since I was born (single deletion mutation in my mitochondrial DNA). This could explain why this works so well for me, but please take this also into account when replying to this post.


Well, that definitely changes things. I would consider trying an ETC shunt that might make up for the defect. Two that come to mind are methylene blue, at a dose of ~60mg, or a trial of C60-olive oil. MB is an old and well-known drug, and 60mg is not a large dose. C60-olive oil is experimental, though we have a couple dozen brave souls trying it out and reporting here.

#4 mitomutant

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 10:30 PM

Finally, note that my electron transport chain is broken since I was born (single deletion mutation in my mitochondrial DNA). This could explain why this works so well for me, but please take this also into account when replying to this post.


Well, that definitely changes things. I would consider trying an ETC shunt that might make up for the defect. Two that come to mind are methylene blue, at a dose of ~60mg, or a trial of C60-olive oil. MB is an old and well-known drug, and 60mg is not a large dose. C60-olive oil is experimental, though we have a couple dozen brave souls trying it out and reporting here.


I have already consideredMB and I ordered a bottle a week ago from ebay.co.uk (pharma grade or so they say). I hate to do this, but .... is it milligrams or micrograms ?

First time I hear about C60-olive oil. Looks very interesting. A quick googling does not make clear what the mechanism of action is. Is it known ?

Thanks.

#5 Hebbeh

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:59 AM

Finally, note that my electron transport chain is broken since I was born (single deletion mutation in my mitochondrial DNA). This could explain why this works so well for me, but please take this also into account when replying to this post.


Well, that definitely changes things. I would consider trying an ETC shunt that might make up for the defect. Two that come to mind are methylene blue, at a dose of ~60mg, or a trial of C60-olive oil. MB is an old and well-known drug, and 60mg is not a large dose. C60-olive oil is experimental, though we have a couple dozen brave souls trying it out and reporting here.


I have already consideredMB and I ordered a bottle a week ago from ebay.co.uk (pharma grade or so they say). I hate to do this, but .... is it milligrams or micrograms ?

First time I hear about C60-olive oil. Looks very interesting. A quick googling does not make clear what the mechanism of action is. Is it known ?

Thanks.


http://www.longecity.../415-c60health/

Enjoy.

#6 niner

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:48 AM

Finally, note that my electron transport chain is broken since I was born (single deletion mutation in my mitochondrial DNA). This could explain why this works so well for me, but please take this also into account when replying to this post.


Well, that definitely changes things. I would consider trying an ETC shunt that might make up for the defect. Two that come to mind are methylene blue, at a dose of ~60mg, or a trial of C60-olive oil. MB is an old and well-known drug, and 60mg is not a large dose. C60-olive oil is experimental, though we have a couple dozen brave souls trying it out and reporting here.


I have already consideredMB and I ordered a bottle a week ago from ebay.co.uk (pharma grade or so they say). I hate to do this, but .... is it milligrams or micrograms ?

First time I hear about C60-olive oil. Looks very interesting. A quick googling does not make clear what the mechanism of action is. Is it known ?


The dose used in Alzheimer's patients, and by Atamna, whose work started the whole MB craze, is around 60 milligrams. People here have been talking about doses of 60 micrograms, which was initially based, as far as I know, on a faulty pharmacokinetic calculation. It got picked up by everyone and kind of turned into gospel, propelled by a lot of reports that I think were probably all placebo effects. I played around with a various doses ranging from low mcg to low milligram, but didn't want to go very high with my pet store grade MB. I never felt anything. Maybe I'm just a "non-responder", but I really don't think that the mitochondrial effect that Atamna describes can possibly be happening at a dose that low. At a 60 mg dose, you could be getting into the range where MAO inhibition could occur. Probably not enough to cause a serious problem, but be aware of it if you take any meds for which it could be an issue.

C60 is very interesting. The effects appear to be some combination of a powerful membrane-targeted (particularly mitochondrial) antioxidant and a mitochondrial electron-shuttle that improves mitochondrial efficiency. It also appears that C60 reacts with olive oil, suggesting an adduct that acts like a "Skulachev Ion", e.g. SkQ1. (only better).

#7 mitomutant

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 07:55 AM

Finally, note that my electron transport chain is broken since I was born (single deletion mutation in my mitochondrial DNA). This could explain why this works so well for me, but please take this also into account when replying to this post.


Well, that definitely changes things. I would consider trying an ETC shunt that might make up for the defect. Two that come to mind are methylene blue, at a dose of ~60mg, or a trial of C60-olive oil. MB is an old and well-known drug, and 60mg is not a large dose. C60-olive oil is experimental, though we have a couple dozen brave souls trying it out and reporting here.


I have already consideredMB and I ordered a bottle a week ago from ebay.co.uk (pharma grade or so they say). I hate to do this, but .... is it milligrams or micrograms ?

First time I hear about C60-olive oil. Looks very interesting. A quick googling does not make clear what the mechanism of action is. Is it known ?

Thanks.


http://www.longecity.../415-c60health/

Enjoy.


Damn, lots of info. This is why I love this forum so much.

#8 mitomutant

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:50 AM

Finally, note that my electron transport chain is broken since I was born (single deletion mutation in my mitochondrial DNA). This could explain why this works so well for me, but please take this also into account when replying to this post.


Well, that definitely changes things. I would consider trying an ETC shunt that might make up for the defect. Two that come to mind are methylene blue, at a dose of ~60mg, or a trial of C60-olive oil. MB is an old and well-known drug, and 60mg is not a large dose. C60-olive oil is experimental, though we have a couple dozen brave souls trying it out and reporting here.


I have already consideredMB and I ordered a bottle a week ago from ebay.co.uk (pharma grade or so they say). I hate to do this, but .... is it milligrams or micrograms ?

First time I hear about C60-olive oil. Looks very interesting. A quick googling does not make clear what the mechanism of action is. Is it known ?


The dose used in Alzheimer's patients, and by Atamna, whose work started the whole MB craze, is around 60 milligrams. People here have been talking about doses of 60 micrograms, which was initially based, as far as I know, on a faulty pharmacokinetic calculation. It got picked up by everyone and kind of turned into gospel, propelled by a lot of reports that I think were probably all placebo effects. I played around with a various doses ranging from low mcg to low milligram, but didn't want to go very high with my pet store grade MB. I never felt anything. Maybe I'm just a "non-responder", but I really don't think that the mitochondrial effect that Atamna describes can possibly be happening at a dose that low. At a 60 mg dose, you could be getting into the range where MAO inhibition could occur. Probably not enough to cause a serious problem, but be aware of it if you take any meds for which it could be an issue.

C60 is very interesting. The effects appear to be some combination of a powerful membrane-targeted (particularly mitochondrial) antioxidant and a mitochondrial electron-shuttle that improves mitochondrial efficiency. It also appears that C60 reacts with olive oil, suggesting an adduct that acts like a "Skulachev Ion", e.g. SkQ1. (only better).


If it is so, then C60 is perfect for me. It attacks the problem from both sides: Keeping the integrity of the mitochondrial membrane to avoid the opening of the mitochondrial permeability transition pore is one of the strategies to treat my disease. They even tried to do it with antibiotics (Tetracycline) (1). Not a good idea in my opinion, but you get the idea. Regarding electron-shuttle, Ubiquinol was a great addition to my stack and it really helps me. Also, there is a clinical trial (phase III) (2) with CoQ10 for treating mitochondrial myopathies.

Is C60 like CoQ10/Ubiquinol or is it more like MB (spin-trap) ?



(1) http://www.neurology...tent/68/14/1159
(2) http://clinicaltrial...how/NCT00432744

#9 mitomutant

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

Time for another update.

I took NADH last Saturday (July 21th) and we decided to go with the kids to a theme park. We arrived at noon and we were back home around 11:30pm. Yes, that´s 11+ non-stop hours. No sign of fatigue. Felt great all day long. My wife just could not believe it.

BUT

This was too much for me and on Sunday morning I woke up very tired. I took another NADH with absolutely no effects. Another one around 5pm. Again, no results. The whole week has been difficult for me and only this morning I feel good again.

Lesson learned: NADH works for me, but I still need to be careful.

I am really intrigued about what the mechanism of action is. I know where NADH fit in the whole metabolic process, but I cannot understand its effects on my energy levels. And still worried about its possible long term effects.

#10 niner

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:15 PM

Is C60 like CoQ10/Ubiquinol or is it more like MB (spin-trap) ?


C60 is very good at holding an unpaired electron. CoQ is also able to do that, though not as well, I suspect. CoQ and MB are both redox active, and will transfer electrons on and off the molecule, so they can help out the ETC, particularly in the case of a defect. Spin traps are molecules that can hold an unpaired electron for an extremely long period of time. That's more like C60 or CoQ, although I don't think they form such super-stable radicals that they'd be called spin-traps. I don't think MB has a particularly stable structure with an unpaired electron, so it wouldn't be thought of as a spin-trap; it just does an extremely facile one-electron redox reaction. In the end, I'd say that MB was more like CoQ as far as the way it would interact with mitochondria, while C60 is more of a super antioxidant that might have some ability to shuttle electrons in the ETC.

#11 evilbaga

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 04:31 AM

After reading some posts about the positive effects of NADH supplementation on energy levels, I decided to give a try a couple of weeks ago. I have taken NADH only twice (last two Saturdays) I must say the effects are impressive: Lots of (physical) energy without any jitter and without any breakdown effect. Effects lasts the whole day to me. I have taken 10mg sub-lingual both times, same brand (ENADA).
 

 

 

Tried Patrick Flanagan's Megahydrate? 

 

He says its miles ahead of NADH ... in some respects anyway.



#12 mitomutant

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 08:38 AM

 

After reading some posts about the positive effects of NADH supplementation on energy levels, I decided to give a try a couple of weeks ago. I have taken NADH only twice (last two Saturdays) I must say the effects are impressive: Lots of (physical) energy without any jitter and without any breakdown effect. Effects lasts the whole day to me. I have taken 10mg sub-lingual both times, same brand (ENADA).
 

 

 

Tried Patrick Flanagan's Megahydrate? 

 

He says its miles ahead of NADH ... in some respects anyway.

 

 

Thanks.

 

Bullshit detector activated. Have you tried it ?



#13 evilbaga

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 07:23 PM

Ive taken it.

Not consistently, on and off for a few years - but it does do something.

 

Firstly, it makes you thirsty. Secondly, drinking water feels good. Im pretty sure of these two.

Seems to up my energy a bit for a few hours - that could be placebo though.

 

From the net:

 

http://neurotalk.psy...hread11876.html

 

http://neurotalk.psy...read172644.html

 


Edited by evilbaga, 02 October 2014 - 07:29 PM.


#14 niner

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 08:01 PM

Bullshit detector activated.

 

Me too.  But then I did a pubmed search for microhydrin.  That produced some hits.  This is the earliest:
 

J Med Food. 2001 Autumn;4(3):151-159.
Clinical Effects of a Dietary Antioxidant Silicate Supplement, Microhydrin(®), on Cardiovascular Responses to Exercise.
Purdy Lloyd KL1, Wasmund W, Smith L, Raven PB.

Amorphous silicate minerals, often described as rock flour, were once common in natural water sources and abundant in glacial stream waters. Not only do the silica mineral particles bond water and other elements for transport; they also can be adsorbed with reduced hydrogen, which releases electrons, providing antioxidant or reducing potential to surrounding fluids. The purpose of this investigation was to examine the cardiovascular responses during exercise after consumption of a dietary silicate mineral antioxidant supplement, Microhydrin(®) (Royal BodyCare, Inc., Irving, TX). A clinical trial incorporating a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover experimental design was employed. Subjects received either active agent or placebo, four capsules per day, for 7 days before the trial. The trial evaluated six exercise bicycle-trained subjects performing a 40-km bicycling time trial. Ratings of perceived exertion and measurements of oxygen uptake, heart rate, performance workload, and preexercise and postexercise blood lactate concentrations were obtained. Although there were no differences (P >/=.05) in work performed, heart rate, oxygen uptake, and ratings of perceived exertion during the time trial, the postexercise blood lactate concentrations were significantly lower (P </=.05) when the silicate mineral supplement was used, compared with placebo. These data suggest a beneficial effect of Microhydrin on lactate metabolism.

PMID: 12639409


The magic is the reduced hydrogen adsorbed on silica. I can't tell from the abstract how they generate it, although electrochemical methods would presumably be used. This is a variant of electrolyzed/reduced water. Both of these things are legit, and one thing that they curiously share is the complete inability of their purveyors to explain what the stuff actually is and what it does in scientific terms. They make lame attempts, but it always comes out sounding like complete bullshit. The worst of the BS appearance happens when it is called "alkalized water". What these things appear to be are various ways of providing bioavailable hydrogen atoms, H* (* = electron), as opposed to the usual H+ or H2. The hydrogen atoms should be extremely good at vacuuming up ROS like superoxide or hydroxyl radical.

#15 mitomutant

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:03 AM

 

Bullshit detector activated.

 

Me too.  But then I did a pubmed search for microhydrin.  That produced some hits.  This is the earliest:
 

J Med Food. 2001 Autumn;4(3):151-159.
Clinical Effects of a Dietary Antioxidant Silicate Supplement, Microhydrin(®), on Cardiovascular Responses to Exercise.
Purdy Lloyd KL1, Wasmund W, Smith L, Raven PB.

Amorphous silicate minerals, often described as rock flour, were once common in natural water sources and abundant in glacial stream waters. Not only do the silica mineral particles bond water and other elements for transport; they also can be adsorbed with reduced hydrogen, which releases electrons, providing antioxidant or reducing potential to surrounding fluids. The purpose of this investigation was to examine the cardiovascular responses during exercise after consumption of a dietary silicate mineral antioxidant supplement, Microhydrin(®) (Royal BodyCare, Inc., Irving, TX). A clinical trial incorporating a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover experimental design was employed. Subjects received either active agent or placebo, four capsules per day, for 7 days before the trial. The trial evaluated six exercise bicycle-trained subjects performing a 40-km bicycling time trial. Ratings of perceived exertion and measurements of oxygen uptake, heart rate, performance workload, and preexercise and postexercise blood lactate concentrations were obtained. Although there were no differences (P >/=.05) in work performed, heart rate, oxygen uptake, and ratings of perceived exertion during the time trial, the postexercise blood lactate concentrations were significantly lower (P </=.05) when the silicate mineral supplement was used, compared with placebo. These data suggest a beneficial effect of Microhydrin on lactate metabolism.

PMID: 12639409


The magic is the reduced hydrogen adsorbed on silica. I can't tell from the abstract how they generate it, although electrochemical methods would presumably be used. This is a variant of electrolyzed/reduced water. Both of these things are legit, and one thing that they curiously share is the complete inability of their purveyors to explain what the stuff actually is and what it does in scientific terms. They make lame attempts, but it always comes out sounding like complete bullshit. The worst of the BS appearance happens when it is called "alkalized water". What these things appear to be are various ways of providing bioavailable hydrogen atoms, H* (* = electron), as opposed to the usual H+ or H2. The hydrogen atoms should be extremely good at vacuuming up ROS like superoxide or hydroxyl radical.

 

 

Then maybe I should try this. At worst, I will only waste money here. I will report any effects here.

 

But first, I am waiting to get some succinate (succinic acid) and give it a try. I found it in ebay, shipped from Ukraine [1] (I believe they use it for athletic enhancement). I found this case report[1] that caught my attention because the lady has exactly the same mutation and phenotype that I have, although disease progression seems worse than mine. She went from mechanical ventilation to normal life on succinate 6 g/day  and CoQ10 300 mg/day. I will open a new topic once I try this.

 

 

[1] http://www.elit-phar...lar/succinic80/

[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC298190/



#16 mitomutant

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 12:06 PM

 

Bullshit detector activated.

 

Me too.  But then I did a pubmed search for microhydrin.  That produced some hits.  This is the earliest:
 

J Med Food. 2001 Autumn;4(3):151-159.
Clinical Effects of a Dietary Antioxidant Silicate Supplement, Microhydrin(®), on Cardiovascular Responses to Exercise.
Purdy Lloyd KL1, Wasmund W, Smith L, Raven PB.

Amorphous silicate minerals, often described as rock flour, were once common in natural water sources and abundant in glacial stream waters. Not only do the silica mineral particles bond water and other elements for transport; they also can be adsorbed with reduced hydrogen, which releases electrons, providing antioxidant or reducing potential to surrounding fluids. The purpose of this investigation was to examine the cardiovascular responses during exercise after consumption of a dietary silicate mineral antioxidant supplement, Microhydrin(®) (Royal BodyCare, Inc., Irving, TX). A clinical trial incorporating a double-blind, placebo-controlled, crossover experimental design was employed. Subjects received either active agent or placebo, four capsules per day, for 7 days before the trial. The trial evaluated six exercise bicycle-trained subjects performing a 40-km bicycling time trial. Ratings of perceived exertion and measurements of oxygen uptake, heart rate, performance workload, and preexercise and postexercise blood lactate concentrations were obtained. Although there were no differences (P >/=.05) in work performed, heart rate, oxygen uptake, and ratings of perceived exertion during the time trial, the postexercise blood lactate concentrations were significantly lower (P </=.05) when the silicate mineral supplement was used, compared with placebo. These data suggest a beneficial effect of Microhydrin on lactate metabolism.

PMID: 12639409


The magic is the reduced hydrogen adsorbed on silica. I can't tell from the abstract how they generate it, although electrochemical methods would presumably be used. This is a variant of electrolyzed/reduced water. Both of these things are legit, and one thing that they curiously share is the complete inability of their purveyors to explain what the stuff actually is and what it does in scientific terms. They make lame attempts, but it always comes out sounding like complete bullshit. The worst of the BS appearance happens when it is called "alkalized water". What these things appear to be are various ways of providing bioavailable hydrogen atoms, H* (* = electron), as opposed to the usual H+ or H2. The hydrogen atoms should be extremely good at vacuuming up ROS like superoxide or hydroxyl radical.

 

 

Found[1] the full article online. No improvement in exercise performance, but a significant decrease in post-exercise lactate levels.

 

Searching my notes I found this[2], which seems related:

 

 

Molecular hydrogen has prominent effects on more than 30 animal models especially of oxidative

stress-mediated diseases and inflammatory diseases. In addition, hydrogen effects on humans have been reported
in diabetes mellitus type 2, hemodialysis, metabolic syndrome, radiotherapy for liver cancer, and brain stem
infarction. Hydrogen effects are ascribed to specific radical-scavenging activities that eliminate hydroxyl radical and
peroxynitrite, and also to signal-modulating activities, but the detailed molecular mechanisms still remain elusive.
Hydrogen is a safe molecule that is largely produced by intestinal bacteria in rodents and humans, and no adverse
effects have been documented.
...  observed significant effects in lactate-to-pyruvate ratios....
 
In this case, they used this product [3] and the results are quite similar, that is, an alteration of lactate levels. It is interesting to note that my neuro checks my plasma lactate and pyruvate levels every 6 months as a  "general marker for metabolic function" (they have always came out normal; fingers crossed)
 

I am testing this thing after succinate. Will report any significant effects.

 

 

[1] http://www.vitalityp...ctate_etc.).pdf

[2] [attached] Open-label trial and randomized, double-blind,placebo-controlled, crossover trial of hydrogen-enriched water for mitochondrial and inflammatory myopathies

[3] http://www.bluemercu...troduction.html

Attached Files


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#17 niner

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 01:37 PM

Mitomutant, you have a lot of exciting possibilities here. What's the status of c60oo? As I recall you were holding off due to an impending NR trial. These various hydrogen products will have relatively short half lives, so you can presumably squeeze them in before NR, but TBH I think the NR trial is going to cost a lot of time for an outcome that has a non-large probability of being the answer. You could try NR on your own more quickly.

#18 mitomutant

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Posted 06 October 2014 - 12:35 PM

Mitomutant, you have a lot of exciting possibilities here. What's the status of c60oo? As I recall you were holding off due to an impending NR trial. These various hydrogen products will have relatively short half lives, so you can presumably squeeze them in before NR, but TBH I think the NR trial is going to cost a lot of time for an outcome that has a non-large probability of being the answer. You could try NR on your own more quickly.

 

I believe it was about a year ago, I tried C60oo at 1,5 ml/day for about 30 days and I didn´t notice any effect.

 

I have been on hold of everything due to some heart irregularities found in a routine check. It was all OK after 4 months of additional tests - including a heart MRI - and I am now slowly getting back to supplement testing.

 

edit: I tried C60oo Jan 2014.


Edited by mitomutant, 06 October 2014 - 12:37 PM.


#19 John250

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 06:37 PM

I believe it was about a year ago, I tried C60oo at 1,5 ml/day for about 30 days and I didn´t notice any effect.

I have been on hold of everything due to some heart irregularities found in a routine check. It was all OK after 4 months of additional tests - including a heart MRI - and I am now slowly getting back to supplement testing.

edit: I tried C60oo Jan 2014.


What does in brand of C60 did you end up using and what did you notice?

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#20 Phoebus

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Posted 04 June 2018 - 10:37 PM

What does in brand of C60 did you end up using and what did you notice?

 

 

john, this thread is very old you might try asking here 

 

https://www.longecit...-you-recommend/


Edited by Phoebus, 04 June 2018 - 10:42 PM.





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