83 replies to this topic

[ChristineH]

Why would you want to reserve optimal therapy for cancer? Why wouldn't anyone want to optimise protection against a whole host of diseases - heart disease, asthma, Type 2 diabetes and so on. You are of course entitled to your opinion but the point I'm trying to make is that the benefit of modern nutrigenomic science is that we now have tools to measure the threshold level of a bioactive compound needed to activate certain genes.

Ultimately, for us to derive the greatest benefit out of any plant bioactive, we need to know at least 2 important facts:

1. The concentration of the compound which must be present in the cells to activate the desired genes...(this is determined from 'in vitro' bench studies)
2. How much of that plant we need to consume in order to end up with that concentration in the cells. (this is determined from bioavailability calculations)

There are all sorts of barriers preventing the compound we swallow from ending up in the cells. Wrong conclusions are often drawn because an 'in vitro' study is reported as if the findings were based on a clinical trial.

[timar]

It's not just about gene activiation but about "hard" endpoints (observed risk reduction) as well. We just can't say that activating certain genes by attaining a defined plasma level of a certain compound is beneficial without a robust association between plasma levels, gene activation and the actual endpoints.

I agree that nutrigenomics a is very promising field in preventive medicine but so far we don't have the level of evidence to back up most of the enthusiastic claims many producers of nutraceutical supplements make to advertise their products.

Of course, if you suffer from cancer or another serious disease you are reasonably willing take a much higher effort, both in terms of cost and risk, than if you just want to pursue a healthy, preventive lifestyle, where it's appropriate to follow a more conservative approach.

[ChristineH]

Timar, gene activation is one of the key steps which takes the intervention (whatever it is) through a series of biochemical pathways that affect physiological function. Then, you get to the hard end-point. And the exercise I outlined to establish the biochemical Dose-response must be repeated to establish the physiological response using whatever hard end-point is appropriate.

This is EXACTLY the problem we see with many studies of supplements, whether or not they claim to be engaging nutrigenomic principles. The Dose-Response has not be adequately establlished in terms of hard outcomes and then we see ridiculous studies like the one that appeared in July last year where the journalist had headed it up with something like: "Curcumin as good as Prozac in Depression".

In truth, we dont have the evidence to support a whole host of absurd claims promoted by irresponsible science journalists in this field. It's no wonder this industry is ridiculed by the mainstream.

[Blink]

Apparently there's a way to decrease the epithiospecifier protein activity:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15184012

Heating fresh broccoli florets or broccoli sprouts to 60 degrees C prior to homogenization simultaneously increased sulforaphane formation and decreased sulforaphane nitrile formation. A significant loss of ESP activity paralleled the decrease in sulforaphane nitrile formation.

Edited by Blink, 15 January 2014 - 05:05 PM.

[Biologist]

A lot of good info here, I'm actually growing sprouts myself now - wonder what the seed source variance is in terms of SF concentration!

I was also considering making a topical SF lotion for some experiments of mine, but I read that SF is only stable for 30 minutes (in water presumably). So how would you go about storing the active in a lotion? i know there is one patent for stabilizing it: https://www.google.c...tents/US7879822

[ChristineH]

Apparently there's a way to decrease the epithiospecifier protein activity:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15184012
 

Heating fresh broccoli florets or broccoli sprouts to 60 degrees C prior to homogenization simultaneously increased sulforaphane formation and decreased sulforaphane nitrile formation. A significant loss of ESP activity paralleled the decrease in sulforaphane nitrile formation.

 

 

This is a lab process and not something that one can effectively undertake in the kitchen!

[ChristineH]

A lot of good info here, I'm actually growing sprouts myself now - wonder what the seed source variance is in terms of SF concentration!

I was also considering making a topical SF lotion for some experiments of mine, but I read that SF is only stable for 30 minutes (in water presumably). So how would you go about storing the active in a lotion? i know there is one patent for stabilizing it: https://www.google.c...tents/US7879822

 

If you search, you will find there is about a 40-fold variation in glucoraphanin/sulforaphane availability.  This is the point I have been making for several of these posts.  An individual has no way of knowing if the seed he or she is buying is a significant source or not.  And on top of that, there is unquantifiable effect of the ESP.  Eat fresh sprouts for their nutrient content but you cant depend on them for their sulforaphane yield.

 

I dont believe there is any way of stabilising and storing sulforaphane for personal use.  Dr Stephen Franklin in the U.K. has been working on this project and is likely to release an active topical some time in the near future.

[Biologist]

I have HPLC w Mass spec access, can get a 5 mg standard here: https://www.caymanchem.com/app/template/Product.vm/catalog/10496/promo/emolecules 
Also looking into sourcing it in bulk from China at ~$500/kg: http://www.alibaba.c...095510.html?s=p

 

Found a stability paper for topical formulation, must have been sleeping, seems to be limited, 30 days to complete degradation in a "standard cream formulation", if you have access I'd love the paper! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23611476 

From the studies I've seen there's not a 40 fold but about 15 fold variation between seeds. Source?

[ChristineH]

I have HPLC w Mass spec access, can get a 5 mg standard here: https://www.caymanchem.com/app/template/Product.vm/catalog/10496/promo/emolecules 
Also looking into sourcing it in bulk from China at ~$500/kg: http://www.alibaba.c...095510.html?s=p

 

Found a stability paper for topical formulation, must have been sleeping, seems to be limited, 30 days to complete degradation in a "standard cream formulation", if you have access I'd love the paper! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23611476 

From the studies I've seen there's not a 40 fold but about 15 fold variation between seeds. Source?

 

I think you'll find the 40-fold ref is in West on '59 cultivars...'  - havent got time to look for it right now.

 

I assume the Alibaba SFN is lab grade standard?  Good that you have access to HPLC.   I'd want to  carefully assay the Chinese RM before using on or in my body.  We have had some bad experiences with heavy metal contamination in various Chinese plant products.  Typically, there is no traceability on supply, so you'd have to check each kg separately.  Is this for your own use or are trying to do something commercially?  1kg seems like a lot for one person, although it is cheap enough in the overall scheme of things.

[Biologist]

Yes I have that paper, among the 35 broccoli seeds the variance is actually insignificant for practical (dietary) purposes as there is only ONE real outlier at 5 umol/g GR (20x less than the top one), but to be safe just buy one of the top brands! 

You'll usually get a certificate of analysis from the alibaba supplier, if they've been in business for a while chances are they are to be trusted (there are other metrics too).

Eventually I'd want to use it commercially, now I'm just figuring out how you'd formulate a topical lotion with decent shelf life and high SF activity. If going commercial I'd assay each production batch and know degradation kinetics so that I could sell a standardized lotion (particularly useful to dermatologists who might want to try it on patients).

 

Edited by johanknu, 19 April 2014 - 05:07 AM.

[ChristineH]

From experience, it is absolutely necessary to assay the product yourself - some suppliers are very 'obliging' in supplying a compliant C of A.  I've had enough of these to know I cant rely on them.

 

Have you checked the patent for topical use of SFN?  I'm not sure what the restrictions are.  Good luck with your project!

[Biologist]

Patent is about stabilizing it using cyclodextrin so not worried about that. The tricky bit would be testing it safely and robustly for different skin conditions, I know some doctors who are interested, but sample sizes would be very low.

 

I'll report back if I do a HPLC assay of dried whole sprouts (growing some right now)

[ChristineH]

Best wishes.  Stay in touch!  Are you also on LinkedIn?

[hav]

A lot of good info here, I'm actually growing sprouts myself now - wonder what the seed source variance is in terms of SF concentration!

...

 

One of the cultivation techniques I've been reading up on consists of individually testing each plant and optimizing seed stock over successive generations by discarding low performers.  Here's a kit that runs around $700 that I think can do 48 angiogenesis inhibition assays with Sulforaphane readout levels:

 

http://www.amsbio.co...ode=3450-048-SK

 

Howard

[APBT]

A lot of good info here, I'm actually growing sprouts myself now - wonder what the seed source variance is in terms of SF concentration!

Where did you purchase your broccoli sprout seeds from?

These are two sources I've used several times; although I've no idea the glucoraphanin/sulforaphane content.
http://sproutpeople.org/
http://www.sprouthouse.com/

[Biologist]

I got these http://www.amazon.co...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

It really shouldn't make too much of a difference if you look at the data from the paper. They're currently sprouting, will know in a day how good they are at that.. If you want to make sure you get max yield of SF use one of the top brands tested.

[P J]

A recent paper I read titled "Broccoli sprout beverage enhances detoxification of air pollutants in clinical trial" lead me eventually to this thread.

 

I'm surprised somebody hasn't posted a link to this study before I did.  Has anybody found out the brand of Broccoli Sprout powder used in that trial ?

 

regards

PJ

 

[APBT]

Here is the FULL TEXT: Broccoli Sprout Beverage: Results of a Randomized Clinical Rapid and Sustainable Detoxication of Airborne Pollutants by Trial in China

 

 

Abstract

Broccoli sprouts are a convenient and rich source of the glucosinolate, glucoraphanin, which can generate the chemopreventive agent, sulforaphane, an inducer of glutathione S-transferases (GSTs) and other cytoprotective enzymes. A broccoli sprout-derived beverage providing daily doses of 600 µmol glucoraphanin and 40 µmol sulforaphane was evaluated for magnitude and duration of pharmacodynamic action in a 12-week randomized clinical trial. Two hundred and ninety-one study participants were recruited from the rural He-He Township, Qidong, in the Yangtze River delta region of China, an area characterized by exposures to substantial levels of airborne pollutants. Exposure to air pollution has been associated with lung cancer and cardiopulmonary diseases. Urinary excretion of the mercapturic acids of the pollutants, benzene, acrolein, and crotonaldehyde, were measured before and during the intervention using liquid chromatography tandem mass spectrometry. Rapid and sustained, statistically significant (p ≤ 0.01) increases in the levels of excretion of the glutathione-derived conjugates of benzene (61%), acrolein (23%), but not crotonaldehyde were found in those receiving broccoli sprout beverage compared with placebo. Excretion of the benzene-derived mercapturic acid was higher in participants who were GSTT1-positive compared to the null genotype, irrespective of study arm assignment. Measures of sulforaphane metabolites in urine indicated that bioavailability did not decline over the 12-week daily dosing period. Thus, intervention with broccoli sprouts enhances the detoxication of some airborne pollutants and may provide a frugal means to attenuate their associated long-term health risks.

·         Received March 28, 2014.

·         Revision received May 13, 2014.

·         Accepted May 27, 2014.

 

[APBT]

  Has anybody found out the brand of Broccoli Sprout powder used in that trial ?

 

 

 

Preparation of the broccoli sprouts beverages.

 

The study was conducted using re-hydrated,

previously lyophilized broccoli sprout powders rich in either GR or SF that were produced by the

Cullman Chemoprotection Center at Johns Hopkins University, School of Medicine, Department of

Pharmacology, for clinical study use as an Investigational New Drug. Broccoli sprouts were grown from

specially selected BroccoSprouts™ seeds (cv. DM1999B) with technology licensed from Johns Hopkins

University. Briefly, seeds were surface-disinfected, and grown in a commercial sprouting facility under

controlled light and moisture conditions. After 3 days of sprout growth, an aqueous extract was

prepared in a steam jacketed kettle at a GMP food processing facility (Oregon Freeze Dry, Albany,

OR). Sprouts were plunged into boiling deionized water and allowed to boil for 30 minutes. The

resulting aqueous extract contained about 5 mM GR, the biogenic precursor of SF.

A GR-rich powder was prepared by filtering and lyophilizing this aqueous extract at Oregon

Freeze Dry. Total GR titer was determined in the resulting powder by HPLC (23) to be 329 µmol/g

powder when assayed just prior to use in the clinical study. To prepare our SF-rich powder, the

aqueous extract was filtered, cooled to 37ºC, and treated with myrosinase, an enzyme released from a

small amount of daikon (Raphanus sativus) sprouts, for 4 hours in order to hydrolyze the glucosinolates

to isothiocyanates. Total isothiocyanate and SF levels were then quantified by cyclocondensation

analysis (24) and by direct HPLC (25), respectively. This hydrolyzed aqueous extract was also

lyophilized at Oregon Freeze Dry. SF content at time of use was 202 µmol/g powder and represented

91% of the total isothiocyanate content in the powder.

The bulk powders were tested for microbial contaminants prior to release by Oregon Freeze Dry

and again upon receipt in Baltimore (IEH-JL Analytical Services, Modesto, CA and Eurofins Strasburger

& Siegel, Hanover, MD), heavy metals (Elemental Analysis, Inc., Lexington, KY) and benzene

(TestAmerica, Pittsburgh, PA). Following air shipment to China, both powder preparations were stored

in sealed bags in a locked, dedicated -20ºC freezer until reconstitution of the study beverages.

To prepare 150 daily doses, allotments of each powder (360 g GR-rich and 24.8 g SF-rich

powders) were dissolved in sterile water. An equal volume of pineapple juice (Dole, Manila, Philippines)

was added along with lime juice (Safeway, USA) in a final ratio of 47:47:6 water:pineapple juice:lime

juice (by volume) with vigorous mixing prior to transfer of 100-mL individual doses into sterile 330-mL

commercial bottled water bottles for daily distribution to study participants. The individual daily dose

was 600 µmol of GR and 40 µmol of SF. The placebo beverage contained the same liquid components,

to which 1% molasses v/v was added to provide color masking.

 

[P J]

Thanks APBT,

 

Well I'd say there's very little chance that Cullman Chemoprotection Center at Johns Hopkins University, School of Medicine, Department of Pharmacology would be making more of and selling this powder commercially !!

 

Do the commercial retailers have their own products assayed so we can be confident we are getting the right amount of active ingredients ?

 

Why is Enduracell twice the price as Super Sprout ?  What is the difference ?

 

PJ

 

[ironfistx]

Someone in this thread said that frozen brocolli was deactivated.  Does that mean you can't eat frozen broccolli?  When you said sprout, that means the stem, right?

 

It also said that some brocoli contains stuff that isn't beneficial to your thyroid.  How do you know if the broccolli you are buying is developed enough?  Or if the broccoli is in the right maturity?

[P J]

When you said sprout, that means the stem, right?

 

Nope, not the stem.  They are the young broccoli sprouts (from broccoli seeds) when the broccoli is only 5-10 days old.  See here.

 

It also said that some brocoli contains stuff that isn't beneficial to your thyroid.  How do you know if the broccolli you are buying is developed enough?  Or if the broccoli is in the right maturity?

 

Uncooked broccoli contains goitrogens which in sufficiently high doses causes enlarged thyroid if the intake is chronic enough.

 

The question to the those selling the Broccoli Sprout  powder - are these goitrogens still present in the powder ?  If so, is the recommended daily intake of the powder going to be a problem for those with normal thyroid function ?  How about those with hypothyroidism ?  If you have hyperthyroidism goitrogens are probably a good thing as they will reduce your thyroid's activity.

[P J]

Do the commercial retailers have their own products assayed so we can be confident we are getting the right amount of active ingredients ?

 
I have put on hold my quest to find a commercial retailer who can prove their product contains a certain minimum amount of active ingredients by asssaying each batch or otherwise [1].   Unfortunately this lack of evidence only reinforces the original poster's lament,     If somebody is able to come up with something to convince us, I'm sure we'd all appreciate seeing it.

 

 

[1] Active ingredients in the Broccoli sprout powder include myrosinase and glucoraphanin (=sulforaphane glucosinolate)).  
 

[ChristineH]

The issue is not with lack of evidence; it is with lack of a standardised assay protocols that can be used to measure the sulforaphane yield.  As a result, data released by various companies are not comparable.  Some companies still claim sulforaphane 'content' which of course is incorrect because the product does not contain sulforaphane; the sulforaphane is generated on ingestion.  

 

Until the protocols are standardised (an issue I raised at some length in my recent review paper in Nutrition Reviews October, 2013), it is impossible to compare one lab's data with that of another.  This is something our lab is working on.

[P J]

Christine, I (and I'm sure others) would welcome being able to see the evidence which you say is not lacking.  The evidence supporting Enduracell's packaging label claim that their Broccoli Sprout powder yields 1.2% sulforaphane.

 

Any regulatory body worth their salt would say that if the evidence is not presented then the manufacturer's claim should at least be questioned and at most ignored.

 

Many measured and calculated values used in science and engineering are arrived at using different "standards"/methods.  As time progresses and people discuss the pros/cons of the methods and various interests are served (for better or worse)  then the number of standards begins to reduce.    This standardisation process doesn't prevent people reviewing the methods and test results (evidence) in the mean time.    For example, I think the US should have moved to the metric system sooner than now as it is simply a more elegant and easier to learn system, but vested interests and inertia have stymied that.

 

If your test companies differ in their protocols then just choose one protocol for now, the one with evidence showing at least a 1.2% yield.    Let us collectively review and assess the protocol used rather than deny us any evidence as that looks suspicious.  It is a fact of life that in the business world, having a "just trust us" position, doesn't necessarily hold much water.  This thread exists because of that very reason.

[ChristineH]

Peter, given the several long detailed explanations I have provided to your personal questions as well as your continuation here, it's time for me to say 'Back Off'.  

 

You have really crossed the line, especially in your personal communications to me, and who would really warm to your aggressive and arrogant manner?  Furthermore, I went out of my way to provide some very useful information out of courtesy to another member of this forum.  I made it very clear that we will release our findings when we have completed the research we have in process - that's a strategic decision the company has made.  You demanded that I prove to you why you should choose our product over the competitor's product.  My response to your rude and obnoxious demands was that you are free to choose whichever product you prefer.  

 

Furthermore, we don't need a lecture on your view of standardisation principles.  You obviously have no experience in how lab protocols are developed and validated - if you did, you wouldn't persist in demanding information you are not privy to.

 

May I remind you that this group is not an appropriate place to be discussing the relative merits of commercial products.  Nor is it an appropriate place for members to demand anything of another member!

 

 

[APBT]

 

Would you please provide links to sources where one could purchase broccoli sprout seeds that meet your aforementioned criteria; as I like to grow my own sprouts. Thanks.

Didn't look very hard but I found one pretty quickly. It was mentioned in this study as the source of the material they used:

Following extensive screening for glucoraphanin content, broccoli seeds (Brassica oleracea L., Italica Group; lot BR0302 of a cultivar Marathon-derived F2 hybrid; not treated with pesticides or dyes) were purchased from Caudill Seed Co. (Louisville, KY) and delivered to the study site. Forty-five kilograms of seeds were surface-disinfested according to standard practices for commercial green sprout growers (29). Briefly, seeds were contacted with 2% (v/v) sodium hypochlorite prepared by appropriate dilution of commercial household bleach into tap water. Seeds and bleach were agitated periodically for 15 minutes, bleach was poured off, and seeds were thoroughly rinsed with running tap water for 2 hours. Seeds (∼40 kg remaining after rinsing loss) were then spread in thin layers over at total of 56 especially designed 14 × 22.5 × 1.5 in. sprouting trays (Green Valley Food Corp., Dallas, TX). Trays were stacked on carts at a slight inclination to allow water runoff and were maintained at ∼22 ± 2°C, illuminated with low-level ambient indoor filtered sunlight, and irrigated with tap water delivered from a spray nozzle at 1- to 2-hour intervals.

Generally, if you can access the full text of a study, it will usually document the materials and methods they used so that their results can be duplicated by other researchers. As Christine pointed out, there might be a substantial minimum order from these folks too. But its worth a shot.

Howard

 

 

I'm just now seeing this, thanks.  I contacted them several times a few years back about purchasing their seeds and never received any reply.  I think ChristineH is correct; they don't sell small lots to non-commercial consumers.

Edited by APBT, 01 July 2014 - 03:27 AM.

[P J]

Summary Response:

 

For those interested in maintaining the focus of this thread, I encourage you to reply with your opinion on whether you think it is reasonable (or not) for a member of the public to request (not demand) evidence for any product's claim, especially claims that have continued to be made over a period of many years without provision of any evidence.

Australia's regulatory body, the TGA, requires that "Sponsors of listed medicines must hold evidence that: supports the health benefits or claims they are making about their product."  (link) .   While there is no requirement for sponsors to provide this to the public, a willingness to share this would surely been seen in a good light.  If the evidence exists and is good enough for the TGA then wouldn't you appreciate seeing it too ?  

If there are others reading this thread who think I have acted out of line in my request for evidence, then please help me understand why.

 

 

Detailed Response:

 

 I made it very clear that we will release our findings when we have completed the research we have in process - that's a strategic decision the company has made.  al products.  

It has been about 5 years since your product has been marketed which is a lot of time to get the testing sorted out.  In response to you saying you will release the test information I personally asked you "roughly how long do you think" (that would take) but you have chosen not to answer that.

 

 

 You demanded that I prove to you why you should choose our product over the competitor's product.  

No demand,  I simply asked "What does <your> product offer above <competitor X's> product which is half the price ?".  That is not demanding.  I did ask you on a couple of occasions but each time I did I sought to address your concerns such as the need for confidentiality, the different results from different labs etc.  

 

The key differentiator between your company and others which you were proud of was that you tested each batch of powder.  When I asked to see the test results you initially ignored me and when I asked again you declined citing strategic company decisions.   It didn't add up and this caused me to rightfully question the product claims.

 

The fact that you chose to reply to this thread has meant that the discussion now continues in public and I thought it was important to reiterate things I had already written privately so the forum can get the big picture.     Providing evidence for claims seems very fitting given the topic of this thread as it would help me (and others) prefer one product over another.

 

 

Furthermore, we don't need a lecture on your view of standardisation principles.  You obviously have no experience in how lab protocols are developed and validated - if you did, you wouldn't persist in demanding information you are not privy to.

If you don't agree with my view on standardisation principles it would be more constructive to counter specific points rather than accuse me of lecturing people.

I have nearly 20 years hands on experience in writing, reviewing and executing test protocols for medical companies.    I did and still do it for a living (among other things), and because my current employer continues to pay me to do this, my experience and ability is a tad greater than your claim of "no experience".

It doesn't take 5 years to write the kind of testing protocol required to determine the sulforaphane yield of a substance.    Claims were made 5 years ago regarding the potency of various Broccoli Sprout powders, so the state of the protocol(s) used back then should have been acceptable at some level. 

 

 

May I remind you that this group is not an appropriate place to be discussing the relative merits of commercial products.  Nor is it an appropriate place for members to demand anything of another member!

If that is really true then why wasn't this thread killed off as soon as it started ?   Re-read the original post explicitly identifying both Jarrow and Enduracell.        I have broken no posting rules. As a consumer with nothing to sell here it is actually hard for me to break the rules surrounding advertising because I have no financial interest in promoting any products mentioned in this thread.  If I have broken a rule please tell me which one.   Again, no demands have been made, just a request for evidence that hopefully other readers will also deem reasonable.

 

 

You have really crossed the line, especially in your personal communications to me, and who would really warm to your aggressive and arrogant manner?  

I have said very similar things in this thread and in the personal emails we exchanged , so if I really have crossed the line why not let others reading this thread decide if I have or not ?     The public are not privy to our personal emails, so unless you're prepared for them to be copied here (I have no issue with that) then I'd appreciate if you focussed on addressing the content of what is written in this thread rather than launch ad-hominen attacks against me.    From what others have read have I been aggressive ?  How about arrogant ? (arrogance means I have an exaggerated sense of my own importance or abilities).

 

 

Edited by P J, 01 July 2014 - 04:08 AM.

[PWAIN]

Why is Enduracell twice the price as Super Sprout ?  What is the difference ?

 

Just looking at the 2 web sites, EnduraCell clain 1.2% and Super Sprout 0.7%. Going on these figures for the powder, EnduraCell is cheaper per mg if you buy 1 x 80gram tub from them. If however you buy 2  x 80mg tubs from Enduracell vs 1 x 150 gram tub from Super Sprout, Then Super Sprout comes up cheaper. The differences are fairly marginal however. I think this is a case of better to chose who you trust most.

[Steve Zissou]

I have had a fever recently, and noticed that my anxiety improved and I became more talkative than usual. I actually tried source naturals extract and it had some effect but it was very weak. I ordered some Enduracell which should be arriving in a few days and I'll give it a try.