24 replies to this topic

[Phiaq]

What parts of the brain support wit and verbal fluency? I know reading lots of books and socializing will provide a basis from which I can work further, but I seem to be missing that little bit of crucial edge.

Extraverts easily know what to say because everything pops up in their head at the right time, but I am an introvert, which means my head is empty (or overactive) almost all the time while socializing Introverts think slower so we have to make conscious effort to keep talking and making decisions.

How can we explain this difference and what can introverts do about it?

[kevinseven11]

Ive always thought extraverts are able to release gaba and other inhibitory neurotransmitters more effectivly.

[Raza]

The Oxytocin/5-HT1a, D2 and GABA B receptors support extraversion/social spontaneity (among others, almost certainly, and each in their own characteristic way). You can turn anyone temporarily extravert with the right drugs, and as a usual introvert having experienced this I can tell you that words will come as quickly as they need to when you're there. You don't have to think a sentence through before you speak it, the impulse to overthink before acting is, uhm... an inhibition (psychological meaning) that is actually the result of excitation (neurological meaning). The ability to let words flow at the speed of thought is just a matter of mood, with only baseline mood being a matter of personality and even personality partially alterable.

Wit and eloquence are something else, of course. These require mostly practice, with success within your range of competence being helped by alertness, especially dopamine. Still, better to look bad a couple of times while you get that practice than to resent your limitations for life.

Edited by Raza, 15 July 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[Phiaq]

The Oxytocin/5-HT1a, D2 and GABA B receptors support extraversion/social spontaneity (among others, almost certainly, and each in their own characteristic way). You can turn anyone temporarily extravert with the right drugs, and as a usual introvert having experienced this I can tell you that words will come as quickly as they need to when you're there. You don't have to think a sentence through before you speak it, the impulse to overthink before acting is, uhm... an inhibition (psychological meaning) that is actually the result of excitation (neurological meaning). The ability to let words flow at the speed of thought is just a matter of mood, with only baseline mood being a matter of personality and even personality partially alterable.

Wit and eloquence are something else, of course. These require mostly practice, with success within your range of competence being helped by alertness, especially dopamine. Still, better to look bad a couple of times while you get that practice than to resent your limitations for life.

Is there a way to improve these pathways / receptors in the brain. What would be a long term solution?

[Raza]

There's a couple for D2 receptors, incidentally. CDP Choline and Inositol increase their density with chronic use, although I'm not sure that they do it in the right parts of the brain.

[nupi]

Do we know how CDP Choline affects D2? It has somewhat of a reputation of lowering mood upon prolonged use so maybe it is simply a dopamine antagonist (DA antagonism would straightforwardly explain the regulator upregulation for one)?

Memantine might similarly be an option to investigate. There are at the very least numerous reports about it being effective at delaying or even stopping receptor down-regulation upon use of dopaminergics.

Similarly, I wonder if extraverts are better at coming up with witty things to say, whereas introverts are more reactive (personally, I can shoot back at just about anything that comes my way but I am rather bad at launching witty stuff in the beginning)?

[Raza]

Do we know how CDP Choline affects D2? It has somewhat of a reputation of lowering mood upon prolonged use so maybe it is simply a dopamine antagonist (DA antagonism would straightforwardly explain the regulator upregulation for one)?

I've wondered this. The study in question suggests that the changes "might be explicable in terms of mechanisms involving fluidity of the brain neuronal membrane.", but that doesn't even begin to rule out ordinary receptor binding. If it is an antagonist, it seems sure next to no one knows about it at this time, though.

And if it were a D2 antagonist, this would lower mood immediately more than after prolonged use, since after a while receptor upregulation would begin to compensate.

Memantine might similarly be an option to investigate. There are at the very least numerous reports about it being effective at delaying or even stopping receptor down-regulation upon use of dopaminergics.

NMDA Antagonism alongside increased agonism at desirable receptors is another great option for fighting homeostasis. Non-psychedelic ones of at least moderate potency can be hard to find, though. And when to take them without impairing learning, in which the NMDA receptor plays a major role?

Similarly, I wonder if extraverts are better at coming up with witty things to say, whereas introverts are more reactive (personally, I can shoot back at just about anything that comes my way but I am rather bad at launching witty stuff in the beginning)?

In my experience this is also true, and also changes with mood through the same variables.

Edited by Raza, 15 July 2012 - 01:51 PM.

[nupi]

But if it was an agonist, why would it up-regulate receptors? That just would not make much sens. Plus if it was an agonist, it should deliver short term mood / motivation increases which it for damn sure never did for me - I don't think it ever did anything noticeable, anyway (but then again that's true for a bunch of other supposed nootropics like ALCAR or UMP).

[Raza]

Sorry, I forgot an 'ant' in there. Antagonists upregulate receptors.

[lourdaud]

Memantine might similarly be an option to investigate. There are at the very least numerous reports about it being effective at delaying or even stopping receptor down-regulation upon use of dopaminergics.

NMDA Antagonism alongside increased agonism at desirable receptors is another great option for fighting homeostasis. Non-psychedelic ones of at least moderate potency can be hard to find, though. And when to take them without impairing learning, in which the NMDA receptor plays a major role?

NMDA antagonism for increasing wit, verbal fluency and speed of thought?? LOL, probably the worst advice I've ever heard.

[Phiaq]

Memantine might similarly be an option to investigate. There are at the very least numerous reports about it being effective at delaying or even stopping receptor down-regulation upon use of dopaminergics.

NMDA Antagonism alongside increased agonism at desirable receptors is another great option for fighting homeostasis. Non-psychedelic ones of at least moderate potency can be hard to find, though. And when to take them without impairing learning, in which the NMDA receptor plays a major role?

NMDA antagonism for increasing wit, verbal fluency and speed of thought?? LOL, probably the worst advice I've ever heard.

I'm not sure what Raza was aiming at but perhaps introverts do need NMDA antagonists because of overthinking and overexcitation of neurons (to prevent inhibition)? (I'm not even sure what role NMDA receptors play other than learning and memory)

@Raza
I live in Amsterdam too, where do you get your Alpha-GPC? I can't find any of the good stuff here.

Edited by x74x61, 15 July 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[Raza]

I import pretty much all my supplements.

Memantine might similarly be an option to investigate. There are at the very least numerous reports about it being effective at delaying or even stopping receptor down-regulation upon use of dopaminergics.

NMDA Antagonism alongside increased agonism at desirable receptors is another great option for fighting homeostasis. Non-psychedelic ones of at least moderate potency can be hard to find, though. And when to take them without impairing learning, in which the NMDA receptor plays a major role?

NMDA antagonism for increasing wit, verbal fluency and speed of thought?? LOL, probably the worst advice I've ever heard.

Look at what I was quoting. Memantine is an NMDA antagonist, which is how it helps regrow downregulated receptors, which is how ordinary D2 / 5-HT1A / GABA B agonists can be long-term solutions to a lack of social spontaneity.

[the_apollo]

The Oxytocin/5-HT1a, D2 and GABA B receptors support extraversion/social spontaneity (among others, almost certainly, and each in their own characteristic way). You can turn anyone temporarily extravert with the right drugs, and as a usual introvert having experienced this I can tell you that words will come as quickly as they need to when you're there. You don't have to think a sentence through before you speak it, the impulse to overthink before acting is, uhm... an inhibition (psychological meaning) that is actually the result of excitation (neurological meaning). The ability to let words flow at the speed of thought is just a matter of mood, with only baseline mood being a matter of personality and even personality partially alterable.

Wit and eloquence are something else, of course. These require mostly practice, with success within your range of competence being helped by alertness, especially dopamine. Still, better to look bad a couple of times while you get that practice than to resent your limitations for life.

I must ask, do you happen to know where i would be able to find info about the GABA(B) receptor in relation to social,, ?
I've searched for just that information about GABA(B) related to social, but have not found a single evidence for it.

[Lister]

This is probably not the most popular view for this forum but I’ll give it a shot anyhow:

Speaking as a past introvert who is now an extrovert I will say that confidence is the biggest player. If you have the confidence to speak to people as well as the confidence to screw up in conversation you’ll learn the art. You need to be able to fall flat on your face socially, forgive yourself, and learn.

Neurochemicals may be directly linked to your introverted state however stacking up would likely only ever provide short term relief from it and I can’t imagine it would be enough. Given this type of short term relief one could imagine this may be the source of a serious substance abuse situation.

So while you can take substances to relieve your introverted state it may be better to just go out there, fall on your face a few dozen times, forgive yourself and learn. Eventually your brain will configure itself the way you want it without assistance.

You can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs just as you can’t become a social wiz without looking like a total loser now and then.

FYI we extroverts are also pretty good at making it seem like we’re better socially than we are. It’s a coping mechanism.

Edit: Obviously you would have to start small. You don't learn how to drive by starting off running in the formula 1. Making a few threads in a forum such as this is an excellent start. Once you're comfortable in this sort of environment you could find Meet up groups IRL. You can ramp these things up as slow as you want, as long as you're making gains you're good.

And you don’t need supplements to do any of this.

Edited by Lister, 03 February 2013 - 02:24 AM.

[Raza]

I must ask, do you happen to know where i would be able to find info about the GABA(B) receptor in relation to social,, ?
I've searched for just that information about GABA(B) related to social, but have not found a single evidence for it.

It's not directly pro-social, but it inhibits higher brain/cortical/executive control, which in turn inhibits drive and action by making you think/doubt before you act. For some introverts, overthinking is definitely one of the obstacles to social effectiveness - but like alcohol, too much can also make you under think things and make an ass out of yourself.

[Rior]

I think what most people see as "extroversion" versus "introversion" may in fact (in my sole opinion) be a difference between being "in the moment" (extroversion) or "in your head" (introversion). I say this, having been on both ends of the spectrum. I had a rather large personality change after a bad concussion and a few bad DMT/2c-e trips.

Before said incidents, I found myself able to fluently express myself in social situations without any real prior inhibition. While I still had internal thoughts, thoughts that one might be considered introspective, in terms of social situations I didn't have any particular "over-thinking" walls in my way. When I was in social situations, I realized I was entirely in the moment, right then and there, without my head getting in the way.

Now, after said incidents, I'm substantially more withdrawn. I dislike this quality, and certainly miss my extroversion. My introversion is driven by social anxiety, which seems to be caused almost exclusively by overthinking. Also what I think of as, not being in the moment. Being in my head. Not being "here, now." To this end, I have found that meditation can help me substantially in this area. Mindfulness meditation, or even simply practicing basic mindfulness in your moment-to-moment life, I have found to help tremendously. It takes you out of your head, and puts you right "in the moment."

One can look at altering introversion or extroversion in two different ways:

1:
Changing how you act with chemicals, which tend to impart a momentary fix that always after a while seem to give in to what feels NATURAL to your mind and body (eg, if you've naturally been an introvert all your life, I would think that usually your mind will always return to that state--seeing as it's what your mind is naturally used to.)


2:
Changing your thoughts. Changing your thoughts in such a fashion to shape your mind, and shape your actions. This is true change. While a chemical change will affect whatever area of the brain those chemicals specifically affect, they don't necessarily shape the brain and one's thoughts as a whole. They may momentarily, but it doesn't change your "base" feeling. Through working on changing your thoughts, you're changing your brain in every way--all its favored connections, the way it operates. This is when the changes become permanent, and for example an introvert can become an extrovert.

Lister is a good example of this. He conquered his introversion through changing his thoughts and actions. Forcing himself to interact more in social situations, forcing himself to adapt. He may have been using supplements as well (and being a member of Longecity, likely was) but ultimately it was his own PURPOSELY ACTIONS that changed who/how he was.

Now the great thing, is that you can combine both changing your thoughts/actions as well as helpful supplements. I personally would think that supplements that change neurotrophic factors (BDNF, NGF, GDNF, etc) would be the #1 best thing to use for this, as those help your brain shape. This would obviously mean that the changes would take place quicker. That said, these changes won't take place without specific action of course. It's a necessity to step outside your comfort zone.

Good supplements to increase neurotrophic factors include:

First and foremost,
1. Cerebrolysin.
Others might be helpful:
2. Lion's Mane Mushroom
3. Noopept
4. Tianeptine (has been found to increase BDNF in the amygdala, one of the primary sites in the brain where anxiety is thought to be seated)

I'm sure there are others, if anyone has any to add feel free to.

TL;DR, The primary way to change one's social inhibition is through changing one's thoughts/actions, however supplements may help.

[Phiaq]

Great posts guys. Keep them coming.

I discovered something interesting a week ago, after eating a good amount of blue cheese on a fairly empty stomach. After 15 minutes I started feeling depressed, which lasted for a couple of hours. On the upside though, thoughts kept popping up in my head in a conversation I had with somebody. It was completely effortless. These weren't just random thoughts, but really useful and sometimes witty thoughts. This never happened before. My brain probably switched to overdrive or something, because it felt like I was aware of multiple threads of thought at the same time.

All I know is blue cheese contains lots of glutamate. I'm not sure if it's healthy for me though, with depression kicking in and all... Still an amazing clue as to how my brain works. What do you think?

[alecnevsky]

re: glutamate

I go through a long day at school (a regular 7-6pm work-day is a long day at school) feeling wonderful [from my morning supplement shake and .5 of armo] till post-lunch time circa 230pm when I begin to peter out. Taking glutamate + n-acetyl-tyrosine post lunch brings me back to baseline to where I can finish my day in full rev.

Moral of the story: you're more likely to be "extraverted" when you're feeling great. And, for me, it takes excitatory neuro precursors like glutamate and tyrosine to feel great. Caffeine however makes me anxious under same circumstances.

[noos]

In which form do you take glutamate alecnevsky ?

Edited by noos, 10 February 2013 - 04:39 AM.

[alecnevsky]

In which form do you take glutamate alecnevsky ?

this

Keep in mind I'm also on 4-5g of piracetam daily so my glutamate levels may be lower than others. Additionally, the n-acetyl-tyrosine I take (jarrow) has 250% daily dose of B6, which synergizes pretty well.

Edited by alecnevsky, 11 February 2013 - 02:15 AM.

[dajinn]

It sickens me to see here that people continue to associate introversion with a slow thinking, unwitting, un-confident, and socially un-charming individual. I almost sighed when I read "past introvert who is now an extrovert". The social stigma that evolved in the early to mid 90s associating explosive personalities and the ability to "sell yourself" with the "ideal individual" has continued to distort the reality that psychologists have made strides in decades since Jung. Ideally, when it comes down to identifying as an extrovert or introvert these matters have more to do with character than as the personality you project. Being extroverted does not at all imply any sort of degree of wit, confidence, charm, or the ability to speak fluently or without second thought. If you want to take chemicals to try and convince yourself otherwise go right ahead but I suggest you educate yourself more about the psychology behind it before someone else convinces you that a couple of drugs will take you from 0 to 60 in 2.5 seconds. If you want wit and general lingual fluidity I suggest you simply practice with people you know in your typical conversations with them. Resolve to be thyself: and know, that he who finds himself, loses his misery.

Edited by dajinn, 11 February 2013 - 03:53 AM.

[alecnevsky]

It sickens me to see here that people continue to associate introversion with a slow thinking, unwitting, un-confident, and socially un-charming individual. I almost sighed when I read "past introvert who is now an extrovert". The social stigma that evolved in the early to mid 90s associating explosive personalities and the ability to "sell yourself" with the "ideal individual" has continued to distort the reality that psychologists have made strides in decades since Jung. Ideally, when it comes down to identifying as an extrovert or introvert these matters have more to do with character than as the personality you project. Being extroverted does not at all imply any sort of degree of wit, confidence, charm, or the ability to speak fluently or without second thought. If you want to take chemicals to try and convince yourself otherwise go right ahead but I suggest you educate yourself more about the psychology behind it before someone else convinces you that a couple of drugs will take you from 0 to 60 in 2.5 seconds. If you want wit and general lingual fluidity I suggest you simply practice with people you know in your typical conversations with them. Resolve to be thyself: and know, that he who finds himself, loses his misery.

Who cares what "extravert" means. It's not an english forum. It's clear to us all what OP is asking b/c we tread these forums day in and day out. Welcome to the forum bro!

[Raptor87]

Today I said to my teacher, hey have a nice weekend. But It's only tuesday and then he replied "what"? My intention was to say, no I mean I wont see you until next week but instead I blurted out, "no I mean for you!", and everyone just looked at me like I was on drugs. Then I went to the bathroom and slapped myself because it was so embarrassing. Nobody understood what I meant.

Iv'e heard anecdotes of methycobalamin being used for this precise effect, having better verbal abilites. I tried it myself but I just couldnt shut up which made me very annoyed. Then I changed the dosage and the effect disappeared. Now I can't get it back again. But I wasn't exaclty witty or started thinking faster. I just talked and talked which was just frustrating. Nobody likes a yap!

Also other anecdotes revolving epa fish oil making people more sociable. Hvent tried it in high dosages.

I have a classmate, he thinks so fast and cracks these remarks in class and everyone just laughs, while I am in the back fighting my brainfog wondering why I am so damn slow and if I am genuinly that stupid. I am so damn jelous. Fast thinkers seem more intelligent, are able to defend themselves on better terms socially, also women love them! It's probably one of the most attractive qualites a man can have.

Good luck cracking this nut!

[alecnevsky]

^ Do you get enough sleep? I'm like two different people: on sleep and the sleep-deprived. I don't get nervous or anxious when I'm sleep deprived h/e I just zombie out ("introvert") and miss out on a lot of potential opportunities which I would have otherwise explored ("extravert".)

Sleep deprivation is fucking evil. I only take the excitatory precursors in order to avoid zombying out and it works quite well. You should try n-acetyl-tyrosine brainfogged. It gives me a much needed kick post lunch and manifests in greater all around feeling of being present or "in the game" -- something you need if you're going on 4 hrs of sleep although something that may make you too aggressive and impulsive if you're well rested.

[Phiaq]

Tyrosine makes me restless and uncontrolled. Also, my blood pressure shoots through the roof.