635 replies to this topic

[niner]

Speaking of stirring, here's some discussion from the paper that may be important:

It is well known that C60 and derivatives are prone to aggregate even in their best solvents [37]. The C60-olive oil solution used in this study can be considered as free of C60 aggregates because: 1- its colour is purple that is characteristic of C60 solutions while the colour of C60 aggregate-containing solutions are rather brown, which is true even for water-soluble derivatives [3]; 2- it is freely and instantaneously soluble in toluene in contrast to C60 aggregate-containing solutions, which slowly dissolve even in the best solvents of C60. Besides, the concentrations of C60 in olive oil as determined by HPLC agree with those previously published by other authors [22].
The stability of C60-olive oil solution determined under our experimental conditions agrees with recently published results showing that the addition of [60]fullerene significantly hampers the peroxide formation thus increasing the stability of the tested oils [38].

Is it possible that the real discovery here isn't the biological properties of fullerenes as we might normally encounter them, but rather the unusual properties of this particular formulation? People have been selling fullerenes in water for human consumption for some while now. They're rather insanely expensive and have the unappetizing brown color explained above as due to aggregates.

One of the puzzlements of this work is the fact that the animals were only dosed over a relatively short time span (~7mo.) but their lives were extended far beyond that. Aside from the obvious explanation of catastrophic error, this would indicate that the fullerenes either induced a fundamental change in metabolism or that they are lodged in the organism somewhere where they can continue to exert a biological activity. C60 is cleared from blood in a few days, and they also said it cleared from the organs they looked at. Toward the end of the paper, they said:

A complete biodistribution study including intestine, skin, bone and fatty tissue is in progress in our laboratory.

My guess would be that if the effects are real, then it accumulates somewhere, but time will tell.

[Metrodorus]

My current thoughts:
There are a number of interesting things to note about carbon 60:
General overview with useful links to previous studies:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2676811/
Another overview:
http://onlinelibrary...08.00266.x/full

1. It accumulates in mitochondria http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12054749
2. It has antiviral action
3. It is a catalytic radical scavenger - i.e. it is able to re-cycle and repeat its activity over and over.
Study of antioxidant effect in the liver: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16351219
4. Applied topically it appears to be able to permeate the skin barrier http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16443688
5. Carbon 60 not only dissolves in long chain fatty acids ( i.e. in olive oil), it also reacts with them'under mild conditions'. So, the olive oil-fullerene complex might have some novel fullerene compounds that are bioactive. http://www.tandfonli...363830701512450
6. Anti-cancer properties http://exp-oncology..../10.pdf?upload=

It shares some properties with methylene blue - in terms of photosensitivity, antioxidant properties, and involvement in the mitochondrial electron transport chain.

I have not come across a study that analyses which section of the mitochondrial electron transport chain is affected beneficially by C60 - It appears to work by accelerating electron transfer from oxidised compounds, such as the substrate of NADH in the electron transport chain in mitochondria....but I cannot find more detail than this.

Dosage in these rats was very low - and intermittent. Possibly, as with methylene blue, there might be a hormetic affect - with low dosages having a positive effect, and higher doses a deleterious one.

An earlier study using a carbon 60 derivative in mice, also had positive outcomes in terms of memory and ageing:
http://www.sciencedi...197458006003423

There is a whole series of abstracts on the medical aspects of carbon 60 here:
http://www.ioffe.ru/...07_p214_226.pdf

Edited by Metrodorus, 27 April 2012 - 01:46 PM.

[gamesguru]

I'm wondering if the fullerene might not be the active longevity ingredient. Maybe it’s just the transport. And dissolving it in olive oil also allows some olive oil molecules to penetrate the fullerene sphere and get transported to places by the fullerene that orally ingested olive oil wouldn't make it to. Like deep into many cells throughout the body even those across the bbb. It that's right, all the longevity effects observed are just an amplification of the effects of the olive oil. And maybe other oils might be even better. Like fish oil for instance. And maybe the transport might work for other longevity molecules that might also be able to be dissolved into the oil. Wonder if cycloastragenol or epithalon might work. Of course this is all just pure speculation on my part. All the studies say the mechanism of operation is unknown. But the possibilities are exciting.

Reminds me of Kary Mullis' idea to use novel substrates specific to certain bacteria/viruses with an alpha gal epitope molecule attached on the end, which is hypothesized to immediately stimulate a full on immune response against the bacteria or viruses, no matter where they are trying to hide!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJttdkKo4nM


Again, this is just a theory, but the idea is the same: using one chemical to get another chemical to more parts of the body, so as to bring on a faster and greater relief of symptoms.

It would help if the researchers would study the bioavailability of C60, as well as identify some of the organs and tissue that it tends to build up in. There is some research in soil and peapods, but the research in rats/humans is scant/nonexistent.

Edited by dasheenster, 27 April 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[AdamI]

Since they used DMSO and C60 in another study and aplying it to the skin of mice, and the result was increased hair production. C60 have some kind of reaction since it at least stimulate hair growth...
Not the same as lifespan though. Sounds like the olive oil attached on the c60 is not what make them live longer. Didn't everyone agree that C60 is a stable particle that attract free radical, because of it's stable design?
Don't see the point in arguing it was olive oil. Are there any proof that people in the middle eastern live 100% longer? They use olive oil to pretty much every thing they cook. Some part of the middle east.

But it to rest already!

[zorba990]

It should be a simple, but perhaps not entirely humane effort, to radioactively tag the carbon and monitor where it goes in our rat friends. Maybe enhancing neurite growth sufficiently enhances feedback signaling in the body and that is what results in an enhanced immune response. If so, then Lion's Mane Mushroom and ALCAR arginate might be worth a look at as well. An exiting time for life extension indeed!

[Metrodorus]

I you read the original study, you would see that a full organ analysis is being performed on the subjects, and results will be released when this is completed.
No need for radioactive tagging.

[zorba990]

I you read the original study, you would see that a full organ analysis is being performed on the subjects, and results will be released when this is completed.
No need for radioactive tagging.

This assumes that there is something left to analyze. Since the mechanism of action is still unknown we have no idea if the buckyballs are destroyed in the process of performing whatever function they are performing. Maybe they somehow bust up AGEs and are destroyed in the process. Maybe they settle in and become a conduit for some biophotonic reaction.

[Metrodorus]

um....no. Temperatures above 400 Celsius can destabilise a buckyball.....it is a very (very) stable molecule. Not quite as stable as diamond, but within a biological system, well nigh indestructible.
Some of the organ tissue was analysed - and that data is available. Whole organism analysis ( skin, bone, viscera, other organs apart from the brain and liver) has yet to be published. We do know fullerene passes the blood brain barrier, and has neuroprotective effects.

Have you read anything at all about buckminsterfullerenes? Yes, they can conjugate with other molecules, to form complexes, but the c60 base molecule is not going anywhere, once it is incorporated within tissue...it is either excreted, or incorporated.
C60 is a catalyst. It is not used up in the process of its action. Many aspects of the chemistry of fullerene are very well understood - its interactions withinin metabolic pathways are to date little studied. I imagine this is about to change.

Biophotonic reaction? No-one has been shining lasers at these rats, to the best of my knowledge.

[Turnbuckle]

It took two weeks of stirring to get the C60 dissolved in the olive oil, so the adventurous among us should probably ask Santa for a good magnetic stirrer.

I tried C60 twenty years ago for an industrial application and I saw how difficult it was to dissolve in most solvents, so I was a bit surprised it went into vegetable oil so easily for these researchers. Anyway, I ordered another sample and yesterday added 400 mg to 500 ml of extra virgin olive oil, and within two or three hours, the light green of the oil had begun to darken. After the occasional hand shaking and 20 hours, about 95% dissolved (just eyeballing) and it's now a greenish whiskey color, about what you'd expect if you added the magenta color of a C60-toluene solution to the light green of the olive oil.

Another note on color: After 40 hours, the olive oil solution (.8 mg/ml) continues to get darker, but is still a whiskey color. There is still a little particulate at the bottom of the container. The color is not inconsistent with the paper, which reported a purple color, as that was for the concentrated`5 mg/ml solution. They then diluted it to .8 mg/ml without saying what the resultant color was, and I rather doubt it was purple. So I tried a different, almost colorless solvent as a check. Adding the same concentration of C60 powder into almond oil, I first thought it might prove insoluble as there was no change after 8 hours. But after 24 hours there were tiny twists of magenta at the bottom, and when I shook it up the fluid took on a purplish tint. Faint, but definitely there. So from that I expect it to go into solution as C60 rather than nC60, even though it might take much longer. It still doesn't prove that the olive oil solute is not nC60, of course.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 28 April 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[zorba990]

um....no. Temperatures above 400 Celsius can destabilise a buckyball.....it is a very (very) stable molecule. Not quite as stable as diamond, but within a biological system, well nigh indestructible.
Some of the organ tissue was analysed - and that data is available. Whole organism analysis ( skin, bone, viscera, other organs apart from the brain and liver) has yet to be published. We do know fullerene passes the blood brain barrier, and has neuroprotective effects.

Have you read anything at all about buckminsterfullerenes? Yes, they can conjugate with other molecules, to form complexes, but the c60 base molecule is not going anywhere, once it is incorporated within tissue...it is either excreted, or incorporated.
C60 is a catalyst. It is not used up in the process of its action. Many aspects of the chemistry of fullerene are very well understood - its interactions withinin metabolic pathways are to date little studied. I imagine this is about to change.

Biophotonic reaction? No-one has been shining lasers at these rats, to the best of my knowledge.

No, not lasers. Just about potential enhancement of how cells talk to each other: http://www.viewzone.com/dnax.html I think the idea of something taking up permanent residence is a bit scary so it certainly will be interesting to see if most of it was excreted or if it is still sitting in the organs.

[treonsverdery]

awesome actual science

here are thoughts on improving the longevizing effects of fullerenes

Creating an even stronger longevity drug than fullerenes or legosperenes
Spermidine is published as doubling (or near doubling) mouse longevity. As an NH2ized alkane NH2/\/nh\/\/NH2 spermidine is rather similar to a fullerene or nanodiamond Creating fullerenes or nanodiamonds with NH2 groups combines two lifespan doubling chemical structures at one molecule



It is likely longevity fullerenes preferentially concentrate at lipophilic (oil preferring) areas of the body. It is possible that modulating lipophilicity will modulate possibly improve ther longevity effect. Perhaps methylating or ethylating fullerenes make make them more lipophilic. Similarly making partially or even fullyhydroxlated fullerenes will cause greater concentration at watery environments. Noting that water or oil soluble versions of things like vitamins C or E have beneficial effects when made available to a different oil or water environments of the body, the hydroxlated form of fullerenes may have novel pharmacological benefits. Also Noting that lanthanides like Ce are published as benefitting neurons it is possible that lanthindes on fullerenes may also be neurobeneficial

[zorba990]

There are huge differences in olive oil quality with some commercial bleached store brands being horribly oxidized.
http://www.oliveoilt...e-problem/12103
There are some good ones like Bariani, but even so, I've never personally been able to tolerate much of it without feeling ill.

I wonder if using coconut oil would be a possible alternative.

I don't know about coconut oil, but a Russian group studied the solubility of fullerenes in various vegetable oils (if you want to pay for information)--

Abstract: Polythermal (in the temperature range 0−80°C) solubility of light fullerenes (C₆₀ and C₇₀), and also of fullerene mixtures (65% C₆₀, 34% C₇₀, and 1% C_76–90) in vegetable oils (of unrefined and refined sunflower, corn, olive, linen, apricot, grape, cedar, and walnut) was studied; the corresponding solubility polytherms are given and characterized.

http://www.springerl...21791045646375/

Thanks! I will go to the biomed library and pull it...(the study that is...)

Edited by zorba990, 30 April 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[8bitmore]

Thanks! I will go to the biomed library and pull it...(the study that is...)

If you do happen to find full text online then please post a link...

[Junk Master]

Amazing anecdotal evidence!

[Metrodorus]

The effects seemed too quick to be the result of mitochondrial biogenesis, but it must have something to do with the mitochondria.

Fullerene accumulates in the mitochondria, and concentrates there. Mitoneogenesis can occur in a matter of hours, but 4 hours seems too fast.
I assume the effects are on the electron transport chain.


"C60 is able to associate with mitochondria and induce
cytoprotective antioxidant effect. The antioxidant effect of
water-soluble fullerenes is used in protection of different
organs such as the brain from age-associated oxidative
stress" (Quick et al., 2008)

Toxicology study here ( based on 99.5% purity fullerene, reagent grade)
https://www.jstage.j...5/34_5_555/_pdf

Regarding the impurities present in the fullerene powder ( at low concentrations, but present nevertheless)
hexane, toluene, trimethylbenzene - solvents used in the purification process, that are almost impossible to remove 100%.
Impurities from the fullerene production process include C 70, and anthracene, phenanthrene, corannulenenes.

[Metrodorus]

This study on fullerenes and anti-inflammatory effects is also interesting:
http://www.jimmunol....179/1/665.short

[Mind]

Ok, so based on a rat study with a sample size of 6 (HELLO!!), some people are drinking the C60 olive oil mixture. I know there is not much evidence of acute toxicity with fullerenes, but it seems kind-of premature to start dosing with this stuff. What do you expect to feel, experience, produce, with this supplement at such an early stage in its investigation? What bio-markers might be tested. How long before you expect to see results? At least with resveratrol there was a bit longer history, more research, etc... before people started taking it en masse. Derived from plant material at least gives resveratrol the aura (if not reality) of being non-toxic. I wouldn't be so comfortable saying the same for fullerenes.

See here to get a good dose of skepticism.

Edited by Mind, 30 April 2012 - 08:47 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

At least with resveratrol there was a bit longer history, more research, etc... before people started taking it en masse. Derived from plant material at least gives resveratrol the aura (if not reality) of being non-toxic.

You never know. Resveratrol almost crippled me with joint pain before I realized where it was coming from and eliminated it from my supplement regime. And I never saw any positive benefits from it, other than the vague potential of longer life. Statins were given the FDA's seal of approval, and yet for me they were poison.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 30 April 2012 - 08:56 PM.

[Brainbox]

And resveratrol is metabolized and excreted from the body eventually. Furthermore, it has a low bioavailablity profile.

What I understand of the C60, it might aggregate in places in a form that is more toxic as compared to the oil solution it is ingested now. And it is not metabolized at all? These fullerene structures will sit in your body forever?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this all means a major NOGO I think, based on the current knowledge and experience.

[Turnbuckle]

And resveratrol is metabolized and excreted from the body eventually. Furthermore, it has a low bioavailablity profile.

What I understand of the C60, it might aggregate in places in a form that is more toxic as compared to the oil solution it is ingested now. And it is not metabolized at all? These fullerene structures will sit in your body forever?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this all means a major NOGO I think, based on the current knowledge and experience.

I for one am not advocating anyone take C60 for any purpose. I'm merely reporting my own experience with it.

[Junk Master]

Isn't it interesting that burning camphor, which is a natural source of fullerenes, is medicinal and holy.

"Camphor is widely used in Hindu religious ceremonies. Hindus worship a holy flame by burning camphor, which forms an important part of many religious ceremonies. Camphor is used in the Mahashivratri celebrations of Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction and (re)creation. As a natural pitch substance, it burns cool without leaving an ash residue, which symbolizes consciousness. Of late^[when?], most temples in southern India have stopped lighting camphor in the main Sanctum Sanctorum because of the heavy carbon deposits it produces; however, open areas still burn it."

Tell me that's not ripe for some supplement marketer to use in ads.

As far as people not jumping on this, we're talking about people who will buy Methylene Blue from fish stores and drink it.

[8bitmore]

awesome actual science

here are thoughts on improving the longevizing effects of fullerenes

Creating an even stronger longevity drug than fullerenes or legosperenes
Spermidine is published as doubling (or near doubling) mouse longevity. As an NH2ized alkane NH2/\/nh\/\/NH2 spermidine is rather similar to a fullerene or nanodiamond Creating fullerenes or nanodiamonds with NH2 groups combines two lifespan doubling chemical structures at one molecule

It is likely longevity fullerenes preferentially concentrate at lipophilic (oil preferring) areas of the body. It is possible that modulating lipophilicity will modulate possibly improve ther longevity effect. [...]

Hi treonsverdery, thank you for mentioning Spermidine for its longevity effect - I feel it does belong in another thread though; since it is essentially a new compound you are talking about and does not have direct connection to the Fullerene study we are looking at here.

[AdamI]

Ok, so based on a rat study with a sample size of 6 (HELLO!!), some people are drinking the C60 olive oil mixture. I know there is not much evidence of acute toxicity with fullerenes, but it seems kind-of premature to start dosing with this stuff. What do you expect to feel, experience, produce, with this supplement at such an early stage in its investigation? What bio-markers might be tested. How long before you expect to see results? At least with resveratrol there was a bit longer history, more research, etc... before people started taking it en masse. Derived from plant material at least gives resveratrol the aura (if not reality) of being non-toxic. I wouldn't be so comfortable saying the same for fullerenes.

See here to get a good dose of skepticism.

Didn't the study with rats say that C60 was inside the body for 10's of hours? Seems like they knew it doesn't accumilate with certain...

[Metrodorus]

Another interesting fullerene study:
http://144.206.159.1...025/1303213.pdf

This study below is even more interesting: note the results on table 1, showing the protective effects of fullerene in a number of in vivo and in vitro experiments.

http://www.thebronxp...elated 2001.pdf

Toxicity appears minimal. I would hazard a guess that those large rats who are experimenting with very low dosages are possibly not being so rash.
It isn't as though the rat study that started this thread is the first fullerene study to show remarkable effects.

Even if it does not affect overall human lifespan, looking at the data, it appears it could possibly affect the quality of that lifespan in a positive manner - at least this is the hypothesis, in the absence of any human or higher primate studies.

Edited by Metrodorus, 01 May 2012 - 11:57 AM.

[Logic]

If one is wondering how/if C60 achieved these results its a good idea to look at other research done with C60 right?
Sombody named H Aoshima has been involved in a lot research:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....hima H"[Author]

Im no expert and dont have acess to the full papers, but am very interested in everyones opinion and theories.

[Metrodorus]

Another (2012) toxicology study, with dosages up to 1g/kg
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22467026

No toxic effects were observed.

[revenant]

Holy Balls! I missed this! How very weird..and incredible.

[Logic]

I have looked into the rather confusing toxicity issue mentioned in this thread:
At first it seemed that C60 in water may be toxic.
Then it seemed that C60 in water aggregates to form colloids and that said colloids may be toxic.

The truth seems to be that tetrahydrofuran (THF) was used to prepare aggregates/colloids for the tox tests.
THF degrades to form gamma-butyrolactone (among other things) which is the real culprit for the toxicity seen.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17637923

So it seems that neither C60 molecules or C60 aggregates/colloids are toxic.
_____________________________________________________________


This paper: Medicinal applications of fullerenes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2676811/
Is excellent, with links to many other reserch papers.

???: Should I start a new thread on C60 research where everyone can post research links with conclusions and theories as to how it extends lifespan?

Edited by Logic, 02 May 2012 - 07:05 AM.

[8bitmore]

I have looked into the rather confusing toxicity issue mentioned in this thread:
At first it seemed that C60 in water may be toxic.
Then it seemed that C60 in water aggregates to form colloids and that said colloids may be toxic.

The truth seems to be that tetrahydrofuran (THF) was used to prepare aggregates/colloids for the tox tests.
THF degrades to form gamma-butyrolactone (among other things) which is the real culprit for the toxicity seen.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17637923

So it seems that neither C60 molecules or C60 aggregates/colloids are toxic.
_____________________________________________________________

This paper: Medicinal applications of fullerenes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2676811/
Is excellent, with links to many other reserch papers.

???: Should I start a new thread on C60 research where everyone can post research links with conclusions and theories as to how it extends lifespan?

Thanks for the excellent resources: I think they fit in perfect in this thread so no need for a new one as far as I'm concerned. It is indeed exciting times with the fullerene!

[HappyPhysicist]

Ok, I broke down and bought the paper. Only $25. I don't think it is illegal to quote the paper, if it is I will delete it. I urge the forum readers who find this information useful to support the author and purchase the paper. The quotes are from:



Chapter 13
Solubility of Fullerenes in Fatty Acids Esters: A New Way to Deliver In Vivo Fullerenes. Theoretical Calculations and Experimental Results
Franco Cataldo1,2

"It turned out, however, that heating a vegetable oil with C60 fullerene causes a reaction between the solute and the sol- vent. "

"In each determination about 40mg of C60 or C70 fullerenes was mechanically stirred for 3 days at room temperature with about 15 g of oil."


"As shown in Table 13.4, if the solubility of C60 and C70 is expressed in terms of mol fraction (× 104) or in terms of molarity (× 103), then one discovers that the solubility level of these molecules in the triglycerides of fatty acids is comparable or even better to the solubility in some good solvents like toluene and trimethylbenzene, but still considerably lower than the fullerenes solu- bility in certain chlorobenzene derivatives. In any case such result comes as a complete surprise. One thing is to predict the solubility level with the solubility parameter; another matter is to have found unexpectedly high solubility levels for fullerenes in fatty acids esters"


"Oil Solubility in mg/l

Olive 909
Castor 392
Peanut 751
Brassicaa 859
Sunseed 522
Soybean 495
Linseed 365"

Edited by HappyPhysicist, 02 May 2012 - 11:39 AM.