3585 replies to this topic

[tintinet]

Remember, the extremely small tiny minuscule sample size from this study. I absolutely love this discussion, and can't wait to see where it leads, but if the study can't be replicated, don't be surprised.

I'd be astonished (pleasantly, I admit) if it can be replicated.

[NewtonPulsifer]

Looks like a water-soluble version of C60 localizes in the nucleus of human liver cancer cells. This article also explores the mechanism of how the C60 enters the cells. The mechanism seems to be the C60 associates with proteins that are transported through the nuclear pore complex (NPC) of the nuclear envelope, so this works even if the nucleus isn't splitting at the time.

This C60 also easily made it into the brain and renal cells, too.

Internalization of C60 fullerenes into cancer cells with accumulation in the nucleus via the nuclear pore complex

Also, rats get significant brain and CNS neural cell protection from alcohol via hydrated C60 fullerene:

Nanostructures of hydrated C60 fullerene (C60HyFn) protect rat brain against alcohol impact and attenuate behavioral impairments of alcoholized animals.

No idea if lipo-fullerene has the same propensity to make it's way to neural tissue, but I'd guess it probably does.

EDIT: Looks like according to the article internalization of C60 plateaus at 10ug/ml. And in the second article, C60 helped even in "super-small" doses.

Edited by NewtonPulsifer, 28 May 2012 - 11:29 PM.

[Metrodorus]

I would not be particularly astonished if, when replicated, life extension is indicated. Perhaps not of this order of magnitude, but significant......after all, this is not the first fullerene study to show life extension.

[Turnbuckle]

Anyone here dissolved PQQ in olive oil and taken it for a couple weeks?

It's water-soluble, isn't it?

[niner]

I would not be particularly astonished if, when replicated, life extension is indicated. Perhaps not of this order of magnitude, but significant......after all, this is not the first fullerene study to show life extension.

I'd be happy if C60 was as good as they are claiming Tunisian EVOO is, which would be a pretty good result for a mammal.

[Krell]

Yesterday at 5 PM I took my first 3ml OI dose of my 0.8mg C60 / ml concentration OI solution (2.4mg C60 total). It was too hot to run yesterday evening. This morning at 8 AM I ran my standard 2 mile training run. My time was somewhat slower than normal, probably due to higher than normal temperature and humidity, and I definitely did not feel any increased stamina. So I failed to confirm the "Turnbuckle Effect" where he found increased running stamina 4 hours after his first 2mg C60 dose.

I plan to take a daily C60 2.4mg dose until my 5k road race this coming Saturday.

I have been hand shaking 500ml of Bertolli Extra Light OI + 0.40gm SES C60 since May 9. There are still some fine particulates visible, but the solution is very dark red/purple. I decanted my dose with a medicine dropper after allowing the particulates to settle for several hours.

Edited by Krell, 29 May 2012 - 02:28 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

Yesterday at 5 PM I took my first 3ml OI of my 0.8mg C60 / ml concentration OI (2.4mg C60 total). It was too hot to run yesterday evening. This morning at 8 AM I ran my standard 2 mile training run. My time was somewhat slower than normal, probably due to higher than normal temperature and humidity, and I definitely did not feel any increased stamina. So I fail to confirm the "Turnbuckle Effect" where he found increased running stamina 4 hours after his first 2mg C60 dose.

To put this "Turnbuckle effect" into perspective:

Background. I'm 60 years old and fifteen to twenty pounds above my ideal weight. Ten years ago I could run three miles to the gym, work out for two hours, and run back. Then I made the mistake of taking statins for high cholesterol. After some months I realized I was being chemically poisoned, so I stopped. My recovery was slow and incomplete. Years later I still suffered from it, but PQQ was a big help. The effects were noticeable in two days, and reached a plateau in one week. Still, I couldn't run more than 100 yards without feeling I'd run a marathon. I couldn't get enough air. Residual mitochondrial damage, in my thinking.

Then, four hours after ingesting 2 mg of C60 in olive oil, I went running. And kept on running. My god, I could breathe! The next day was the same. I ran a mile and a half, and I hadn't done that since before Crestor. The effects seemed too quick to be the result of mitochondrial biogenesis, but it must have something to do with the mitochondria.

So I saw a big improvement but I wasn't back to where I was before Crestor. In my thinking, C60 is unlikely to dramatically help someone with well-functioning mitochondria any more than PQQ would.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 29 May 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[HighDesertWizard]

Remember, the extremely small tiny minuscule sample size from this study. I absolutely love this discussion, and can't wait to see where it leads, but if the study can't be replicated, don't be surprised.

I'll be surprised, not if it can't be replicated, but if something close or better can't be achieved in a study, thoughtfully designed and conducted by a smart and knowledgeable team with broad and deep knowledge of the aging and disease literature. Here's why.

We now have more data points than what the study itself contained. We now have the details of Turnbuckle's experience. The rats weren't able to tell us how they felt (although Anthony Loera's latest note implies that, if they could, it would be a story we'd be interested in). Turnbuckle's experience are n=1 data points obviously and completely useless for any effort to prove something. But proving something isn't what this is about. We ought to be about the business of coming up with Explanations of the result in rats and the results for Turnbuckle.

• Turnbuckle's experience suggests the prospect of virtually immediate epigenetic changes taking place through, perhaps, the "stripping of methyl groups from mitochondrial dna." Olive Oil cannot achieve this result so we know the action of the Fullerene C60s has potentially profoundly healthful implications. This means that an "exercise 'Turnbuckle effect'" ought not be expected by those not having the same issues he has. It also means that, if you have other significant issues, you might expect a positive effect. (I've had one experience comparable to Turnbuckle's. I'll write about it soon.)

• They dosed those rats a single time with The Potion. What would have happened if they had done another Potion treatment, or three, or four, at regular intervals?

• We should have more confidence in the result because we now know, even if the study authors didn't, that their choice of Olive Oil was a good one. It has been specifically shown to Stimulate that physiological process (the Vagus/CAIP/HRV nexus) associated with what is currently defined to be Extreme Longevity in at least a three ways.

High HRV-->> Extreme Longevity: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20381674

Vagal Control-->> HRV: http://www.jci.org/articles/view/30555

Positive Emotions-->> Extreme Longevity: http://www.impactagi...bs/100456a.html

Positive Emotions-->> Trigger the Vagus: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20851735

Aerobic Exercise-->> Extreme Longevity: http://extremelongev...ds/sardinia.pdf

Aerobic Exercise-->> Vagus Activation: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11560079

As the exponential growth of knowledge about aging and disease continues inexorably, we ought not be surprised that, at some point, with the publication of some specific study, maybe this one, the "S Curve" will turn up sharply. Is it This Study and This Potion? Dunno.

But I'm rolling around a design of what kinds of rat groups ought to be looked at in a follow on study. When a 1st cut at how the groups are defined is completed, I'll post it. Anyone else thinking about how rats should be organized into study groups to figure out what's going on? If you're not, why not? 8-)

I think WE should organize, design, solicit bids on, and fund the follow up study here. We have as much broad and deep collective intelligence about the literature as these academics do.

If I'm the best, willing person to spearhead the effort to raise money to fund a study we collectively design, I'm ready to start working, in consultation with ImmInst leadership guidance and approval, to raise the cash. (And if I'm working on that, I'll be less bothersome about this Vagus stuff. That would be a benefit, eh? 8-))

In the meantime, how about we start putting some rat study group designs on the table, along with the study result explanations and hypotheses we would expect to test with those designs.

8-)


--------
Explanations that transform the world are the beginning of Infinity -- David Deutsch

Edited by wccaguy, 29 May 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[zorba990]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, these guys http://www.highbeam....-500897071.html have been looking at this tech for close to 10 years. So why no fullerene drugs or supplements already? Do they work too well, not at all, or too much risk for healthy patients (as in buy the innovator C-Sixty and then bury the work).

[Turnbuckle]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, these guys http://www.highbeam....-500897071.html have been looking at this tech for close to 10 years. So why no fullerene drugs or supplements already? Do they work too well, not at all, or too much risk for healthy patients (as in buy the innovator C-Sixty and then bury the work).

Here are 58 patent applications on fullerenes in the medical area over the past ten years: http://appft1.uspto....ene AND disease

There are just three patent applications to the company C Sixty, all which use fullerenes as a carrier for drugs, not as drugs themselves: http://appft1.uspto....ry=an/"C Sixty"

[Turnbuckle]

My experience with C60 is that oral and/or topical use of C60 in olive oil tends to reverse hair loss. Here's a paper saying fullerene derivatives do this in mice: Fullerene nanomaterials potentiate hair growth

[Allen Walters]

I got my c60 today and just put 1 gr/ 200ml of olive oil. I hope I did my math right on that. Did anyone notice there c60 smelling like iodine?

[Metrodorus]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, these guys http://www.highbeam....-500897071.html have been looking at this tech for close to 10 years. So why no fullerene drugs or supplements already? Do they work too well, not at all, or too much risk for healthy patients (as in buy the innovator C-Sixty and then bury the work).

Fullerene's surprising solubility in olive oil is a comparatively recent discovery - circa 2007. All previous research was based around problematic water-solubalised fullerene.

[Turnbuckle]

I got my c60 today and just put 1 gr/ 200ml of olive oil. I hope I did my math right on that. Did anyone notice there c60 smelling like iodine?

For me C60 has no smell, and in olive oil, no taste except for the oil itself.

[niner]

I got my c60 today and just put 1 gr/ 200ml of olive oil. I hope I did my math right on that. Did anyone notice there c60 smelling like iodine?

An iodine smell would worry me some. What was the claimed purity of the C60?

1g/200ml is 5mg/ml. Is that the concentration you're shooting for?

[JohnD60]

I don't smell anything odd about it. My Dog, who has a much better sense of smell than I, has been eating her C60/OO spiked mourning meal with as much, if not more, enthusiasm as normal.

Edited by JohnD60, 30 May 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[HappyPhysicist]

For me C60 has no smell, and in olive oil, no taste except for the oil itself.

ditto

[Allen Walters]

The purity is 99.5%, and I was shooting for the same strength as the rat study used.

[Spider_]

Same here. No smell at all. Only very dark brown-purple colour after 1 week of dissolving. My is 99.9% purity, in case it matters.

Edited by Spider_, 30 May 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[Allen Walters]

My mixture Has turned a deep purple after mixing all night. when I shine a flash light through it I can see small particles swirling around. I emailed the source about it, and I'm hoping it's nothing toxic.

[HappyPhysicist]

My mixture Has turned a deep purple after mixing all night. when I shine a flash light through it I can see small particles swirling around. I emailed the source about it, and I'm hoping it's nothing toxic.

I wouldn't be worried about the particles. I bought a green laser to test this and I can see the path of the laser through the sample, but I see exactly the same thing with raw olive oil.

Edited by HappyPhysicist, 30 May 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I wouldn't worried about the particles. I bought a green laser to test this and I can see the path of the laser through the sample, but I see exactly the same thing with raw olive oil.

But you filtered yours. He didn't. There are definitely more laser sparkles in the unfiltered C60 solution than in the base oil, and most of his C60 will not be in solution due to the attempted 5mg/ml concentration.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 30 May 2012 - 04:44 PM.

[Allen Walters]

Let me clarify my earlier description of the oder I smell. I assumed it was iodine, but my mother informed me that the sting she used to put on my cuts was Mercurochrome. That's what it smells like.

[Allen Walters]

Also, some of the particles are black and shiny, and the bulk are brownish grey flakes.

[malbecman]

Not to be a snit but I believe just about every company is profit driven. That is the general motivation of doing business.

Or as my dad used to say, the three primary motivators of humans are greed, fear and guilt.

My belief is that Big Pharama is profit driven and their research is steered toward profitiable projects. I do not see a lot of profit potential in researching C60 forumulations because they can not patent C60. At best they could patent some formulation that includes C60, but that formulation could be easily hacked. So they end up with a product that has all the liabilty of their usual products, but a fraction of the profit potential. And, the cynical side of me thinks that broad range cures or life extension is not in the best interest of Big Pharama as it would cannbalize their existing profits centers.

[HappyPhysicist]

But you filtered yours. He didn't. There are definitely more laser sparkles in the unfiltered C60 solution than in the base oil, and most of his C60 will not be in solution due to the attempted 5mg/ml concentration.

Good point. If you see very bright specs then indeed those are undissolved bits of C60.

[Turnbuckle]

Let me clarify my earlier description of the oder I smell. I assumed it was iodine, but my mother informed me that the sting she used to put on my cuts was Mercurochrome. That's what it smells like.

It might be a residual solvent, and solvents + fullerenes can be nasty stuff. Especially DMF.

Did you get this sample from a friend?

[Allen Walters]

No, I ordered it from a Canadian company that produces it, and it's not a sample. I ordered 25 gr of it.

[jg42122]

I spent my entire work day yesterday reading this forum in great detail and today I am back reading again. I may not get much work done this week but I have learned a lot from all of you so I wanted to say thank you.

I have been interested in this as well since hearing about it months ago not only for myself but for other family members. A couple of questions I have thought of while reading this has to do with the dosage. I have read on many different sites different dosage recommendations from 1mg/day to 1.5 mg/day and even as much as 4mg/day. In rats they were trying to poison them basically giving them an OD of the substance which obviously had no ill effect but they were taking a high dosage which leads me to believe if a human was going to take it they should take the same amount at least initially.

I have read the rats took the solution a total of 24 times I understand that a rats life cycle is shorter that that of a humans however as another poster said I am leaning toward the theory that the c60 does " wipes out the methylation, the DNA automatically recovers it, and the effective age is set to zero."

I believe the higher dosage played an important role in this while it is just an assumption I have already seen sites marketing this as something that will need to be taken everyday for the rest of your life like a vitamin and the rats did not take it everyday just 24 times. Personally I am going to try it at a larger dosage over a few months, or at least at the same dosage equavalent the rats took it at.

Once I start this I will log it here in great detail and I hope everyone else does the same so we can learn from each other.

[NewtonPulsifer]

Let me clarify my earlier description of the oder I smell. I assumed it was iodine, but my mother informed me that the sting she used to put on my cuts was Mercurochrome. That's what it smells like.

It should be extremely uniform in color and consistency.. Should be odorless. Please let us know where you got yours so we can avoid that source.