3585 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

I'm kind of worried with this potential hormesis effect and the toxic effect .... i really feel like i was lobotomized because i really have a hard time concentrating since i took this. I can usually be very focused.

is there any scientific data about c60's nerotoxicity ?

Could be something you're taking it with. I took C60 once with one gram of niacin and felt bad for a week. Overall though, taking just one dose of a few mg a week, I'd say that the effect on cognition is positive.

[Nootropic Cat]

Nope, i sleep very well at night and have no scruples...

Haha perfect misuse of word

[sunshinefrost]

i found something that could be explaining why i feel tired.... maybe i damaged my eye's lens and now I have difficulty focusing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18234258


Abstract

The water-soluble, hydroxylated fullerene [fullerol, nano-C60(OH)22-26] has several clinical applications including use as a drug carrier to bypass the blood ocular barriers. We have assessed fullerol's potential ocular toxicity by measuring its cytotoxicity and phototoxicity induced by UVA and visible light in vitro with human lens epithelial cells (HLE B-3). Accumulation of nano-C60(OH)22-26 in the cells was confirmed spectrophotometrically at 405 nm and cell viability estimated using MTS and LDH assays. Fullerol was cytotoxic to HLE B-3 cells maintained in the dark at concentrations higher than 20 microM. Exposure to either UVA or visible light in the presence of >5 microM fullerol-induced phototoxic damage. When cells were pretreated with non-toxic antioxidants: 20 microM lutein, 1 mM N-acetyl cysteine, or 1 mM l-ascorbic acid prior to irradiation, only the singlet oxygen quencher-lutein significantly protected against fullerol photodamage. Apoptosis was observed in lens cells treated with fullerol whether or not the cells were irradiated, in the order UVA>visible light>dark. Dynamic light scattering (DLS) showed that in the presence of the endogenous lens protein alpha-crystallin, large aggregates of fullerol were reduced. In conclusion, fullerol is both cytotoxic and phototoxic to human lens epithelial cells. Although the acute toxicity of water-soluble nano-C60(OH)22-26 is low, these compounds are retained in the body for long periods, raising concern for their chronic toxic effect. Before fullerols are used to deliver drugs to the eye, they should be tested for photo- and cytotoxicity in vivo.



By the way.... what's the difference between "water soluble fullerene" and c60 olive oil ? why are poeple on this forum less afraid of c60oo than sraight c60.... sorry for my lack of knowledge but i would like to know what you think.

Edited by sunshinefrost, 29 November 2012 - 06:24 PM.

[xtronics]

I'm kind of worried with this potential hormesis effect and the toxic effect .... i really feel like i was lobotomized because i really have a hard time concentrating since i took this. I can usually be very focused.

is there any scientific data about c60's nerotoxicity ?

Sounds like what I've experienced. - I'm guessing if it works for humans, it is an hormesis effect - dosage may really be important and there could be such side effects. Please post what happens after you discontinue.

[Hebbeh]

Check your blood sugar.

[Kevnzworld]

I'm kind of worried with this potential hormesis effect and the toxic effect .... i really feel like i was lobotomized because i really have a hard time concentrating since i took this. I can usually be very focused.

is there any scientific data about c60's nerotoxicity ?

Could be something you're taking it with. I took C60 once with one gram of niacin and felt bad for a week. Overall though, taking just one dose of a few mg a week, I'd say that the effect on cognition is positive.

As with all substances and supplements we take, the effects whether real or perceived differ widely. There are so many confounding variables that effect daily mood, energy and alertness. I do think it's possible that some people's immune systems may be activated by the C60 and flu like symptoms could result. Hormesis? Who knows.
I took a fairly comprehensive blood test prior to beginning C60. it's now been a week. I feel fine, but after reading these recent posts I'm now wondering about my own energy levels......I'm seeing my doctor on Monday ( I can't wait to see his reaction when I tell him about C60 ) and I'm going to get a followup blood test. It will be interesting to see if there are any changes to immune markers or liver function. I'm taking 1.6 mg daily for now. I will take off a week after the blood test.

[mikey]

These posts are interesting and completely contrary to my experience.

All I experience from taking about 7 mg a day, every day are good things - more mental clarity, better physical precision, wrinkles and scars fading, my hair is darkening, much more tolerance to alcohol - I monitor how much I drink because it doesn't get me drunk at amounts that would get me drunk without C60.

I guess we are all different, but this much difference is amazing.

[Andey]

Nope, i sleep very well at night and have no scruples... But laying off the res and only taking C60, really started to make me sleep more though.

:D
Cheers
A

I am really struggling to catch it )
As for res, I read so many positives about it here so I think I will order year bulk of your x500 to begin new supplemented life from NYr )

[Kevnzworld]

It does seem from the following that C60 does up regulate the immune system which could account for some of the flu like. " symptoms " being described here. Maybe autoimmune like would be a better characterization .

"Immunostimulatory properties and enhanced TNF- α mediated cellular immunity for tumor therapy by C60(OH)20 nanoparticles"
http://iopscience.io...84/20/41/415102

The results indicate that C60(OH)x enhances the phagocytosis of peritoneal macrophages and elevates the activity of arginase and acid phosphatase in vivo. The tumor necrosis factor alpha production of C60(OH)x-treated macrophages also increases in vitro
http://onlinelibrary...enticated=false

If C60 increases TNF-a, it would then also increase inflammation in some people. Many of the symptoms described are inflammatory in nature ( Turnbuckle ).

[smithx]

As for res, I read so many positives about it here so I think I will order year bulk of your x500 to begin new supplemented life from NYr )

I'd start slow with resveratrol.

I, and a number of other people on here have found that it either causes connective tissue damage, or at least significantly reduces the speed of healing of such damage.

I had to discontinue it because of tendon pain and injuries. After I discontinued it, the pain gradually faded. When I tried starting resveratrol again a year later, the pain returned within a couple of weeks.

Edited by smithx, 29 November 2012 - 11:09 PM.

[Andey]

As for res, I read so many positives about it here so I think I will order year bulk of your x500 to begin new supplemented life from NYr )

I'd start slow with resveratrol.

I, and a number of other people on here have found that it either causes connective tissue damage, or at least significantly reduces the speed of healing of such damage.

I had to discontinue it because of tendon pain and injuries. After I discontinued it, the pain gradually faded. When I tried starting resveratrol again a year later, the pain returned within a couple of weeks.

Thank you for caution. May be spontaneous decisions are not the right choice in this area. I will buy pilot bottle first.

[smithx]

If a lot of people are experiencing lethargy, tiredness, reduced energy, etc. I would take that as a warning sign.

The jury is still most definitely out on C60.

[Hebbeh]

Like I said, check your blood sugar. :-)

[sunshinefrost]

Like I said, check your blood sugar. :-)

Are you suggesting that people with abnormal bloods ugars have these types of symptoms or are you suggesting that checking blood sugar will reveal something about c60 ?

I cant make the connection between the lethargy and blood sugars. For my part i did not experience any low or high blood sugars like diabetics would feel.

I'm kind of worried with this potential hormesis effect and the toxic effect .... i really feel like i was lobotomized because i really have a hard time concentrating since i took this. I can usually be very focused.

is there any scientific data about c60's nerotoxicity ?

Could be something you're taking it with. I took C60 once with one gram of niacin and felt bad for a week. Overall though, taking just one dose of a few mg a week, I'd say that the effect on cognition is positive.

As with all substances and supplements we take, the effects whether real or perceived differ widely. There are so many confounding variables that effect daily mood, energy and alertness. I do think it's possible that some people's immune systems may be activated by the C60 and flu like symptoms could result. Hormesis? Who knows.
I took a fairly comprehensive blood test prior to beginning C60. it's now been a week. I feel fine, but after reading these recent posts I'm now wondering about my own energy levels......I'm seeing my doctor on Monday ( I can't wait to see his reaction when I tell him about C60 ) and I'm going to get a followup blood test. It will be interesting to see if there are any changes to immune markers or liver function. I'm taking 1.6 mg daily for now. I will take off a week after the blood test.

Please post the results when you get them !

[pleb]

a slightly under active thyroid can also give tiredness and lethargy,

[sunshinefrost]

I'm kind of worried with this potential hormesis effect and the toxic effect .... i really feel like i was lobotomized because i really have a hard time concentrating since i took this. I can usually be very focused.

is there any scientific data about c60's nerotoxicity ?

Could be something you're taking it with. I took C60 once with one gram of niacin and felt bad for a week. Overall though, taking just one dose of a few mg a week, I'd say that the effect on cognition is positive.

How much did you take? And how long do you think c60 stays in the system ? Sorry if all this was mentioned before

[Hebbeh]

I'm saying C60 has has lowered my blood sugar. I eat lowish carb and I've had to increase my carb intake to maintain energy to complete workouts. All of those symptoms including loss of concentration are classic low blood sugar symptoms. In regards to niacin, when I experimented with high dose niacinamide, it dropped my blood sugar to the point that I had to stop...so C60 and naicin are probably synergistic in regards to lowering blood sugar.

Edited by Hebbeh, 30 November 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[Kevnzworld]

@Hebbah:
This is just a feeling, you haven't done actual glucose testing correct? I test both fasting and post prandial relatively often. I take chromium, metformin, green coffee been extract etc to suppress my blood sugars. I have not tested this week since I'm out of town. I will be home tomorrow and I will test to see if my numbers have changed in any meaningful way.

[Turnbuckle]

I'm kind of worried with this potential hormesis effect and the toxic effect .... i really feel like i was lobotomized because i really have a hard time concentrating since i took this. I can usually be very focused.

is there any scientific data about c60's nerotoxicity ?

Could be something you're taking it with. I took C60 once with one gram of niacin and felt bad for a week. Overall though, taking just one dose of a few mg a week, I'd say that the effect on cognition is positive.

How much did you take? And how long do you think c60 stays in the system ? Sorry if all this was mentioned before

A gram of niacin about an hour after taking 2.5 mg of C60. I've had a lot of experience with niacin, but this was not good.

[Hebbeh]

@Hebbah:
This is just a feeling, you haven't done actual glucose testing correct? I test both fasting and post prandial relatively often. I take chromium, metformin, green coffee been extract etc to suppress my blood sugars. I have not tested this week since I'm out of town. I will be home tomorrow and I will test to see if my numbers have changed in any meaningful way.

Although I have a glucose meter, I'm out of test strips and don't care to purchase any at this time.

That said, I can say that I am very in tune with my body and know what low blood sugar feels like. I'm very insulin sensitive and maintain my fasting blood glucose in the upper 60's and post prandial typically below 80 through a combination of a lowish carb and calorie diet and exercise. So it doesn't take much of a blood sugar dip for me to notice as I don't have much of a cushion.

Little background....I'm 55 but can honestly say that I'm in better shape than most of the 25yo's that I know. I used to follow the bodybuilding lifestyle when younger and although I no longer actively bodybuild, I still maintain sub 10% body fat through strict diet and exercise. And as such, I'm very sensitive to my blood glucose as I don't eat any extra carbs. I'm also very sensitive to supplements that lower or mess with my already low blood glucose.

I'm speculating that others that are feeling these effects are also lean and athletic and sensitive to substances that lower already low blood sugar. For the rest that typically eat more carbs and have normally higher blood glucose levels, they are not as sensitive to this effect.

Edited by Hebbeh, 30 November 2012 - 01:38 AM.

[Kevnzworld]

I'm speculating that others that are feeling these effects are also lean and athletic and sensitive to substances that lower already low blood sugar. For the rest that typically eat more carbs and have normally higher blood glucose levels, they are not as sensitive to this effect.

It's always hard to know. I don't know any 55 yo's with your glucose numbers( kudos btw ) I think that most healthy, non diabetic middle age adults are where I am, fasting glucose 82, post prandial 100 give or take, HBa1c 5.1.
There are so many anecdotal accounts from people whose medical history is unknown to us that it gets difficult to analyze cause, effect and symptoms real or perceived . I have a newfound respect for the placebo.
I know my glucose numbers, so it will be interesting to see if there is a difference when I test beginning tomorrow.

[niner]

I think we're seeing something here, but it's not hormesis. I think it's anti-hormesis. Exercise generates ROS, which does some damage. I don't know if it's the ROS themselves or the damage they cause, but something triggers various compensatory mechanisms. Antioxidant defenses are upregulated, trophic factors are released, probably a whole host of things. That's why exercise is good for us, and makes us feel good. It's a hormetic effect. C60-oo is dispatching the ROS before they can do their damage, so we aren't seeing as much hormesis. Since I've been taking c60-oo, I've been feeling a little less energetic, and even though I've been going to the gym, I haven't been getting the usual good "I'm glad I went to the gym" feeling. I kind of feel like I haven't been working out. I'm pretty familiar with the feeling of low blood sugar, and I don't think that's what's going on in my case.

There was also the c60 withdrawal effect that I noticed in the second week of not taking it after a 6mg dose. The way I felt was consistent with inadequate antioxidant defenses that hadn't come back up to speed, although it could certainly have been some other mechanism.

C60 is the most potent and promising agent that I've ever used, but I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't a price to be paid for its use. Sort of like the price you pay for CR. Baati's rats were sedentary little cage-potatoes, like all lab rats. No one asked them how they were feeling- maybe they felt tired and dopey during their 90% longer lives. There are some effects I'm getting from C60 that I really like, so I don't want to quit. I hope I can tune my dosing schedule, like Turnbuckle, or maybe add another agent like Anthony did, and keep the good effects but lose the part that feels like anti-hormesis.

[stephen_b]

I haven't been getting the usual good "I'm glad I went to the gym" feeling. I kind of feel like I haven't been working out.

One thought that comes to mind is to lower your dose (or increase your exercise level) until you recapture that feeling.

[stephen_b]

These posts are interesting and completely contrary to my experience.

All I experience from taking about 7 mg a day, every day are good things

Which I think is perhaps 7 times or more what most people on this forum are taking, and might explain your results. Now that I have a 500 ml bottle of olive oil with about 1g/ml C60, I'll try a dose like that too. I have yet to notice anything at all from C60.

[david ellis]

I take 1/2 gram twice daily of 10% testosterone. It raised my levels from 250 to 800. I take it to restore normal levels, not for bodybuilding purposes. Ive been taking it for about five years.

Wow, and you didn't feel anything? No change in libido? Nuthin'?

It's been so long that it's hard to remember. There are times that I forget to bring it somewhere for a weekend and I don't notice anything. I'm sure my libido would be nil without it. I find that the only thing that makes me feel either worse or better in terms of energy and mood is food and exercise. I always feel better when I eat clean healthy light food.


Kevn's dose is twice mine. 50 mg vs 25 mg. My libido was waning when I started. The testosterone worked well for four years. Then despite the testosterone, my libido dropped again. 50 mg of pregnenolone brought it back. I was unable to take the testosterone every day because it made a spot on my back itch. WIth the pregnenolone I can take more testosterone without getting the back itch. I should have tried pregneolone earlier.

I also take a small amount of pregnenalone , progesterone and DHEA . Is your 25 mg a 10% cream? Some have a higher concentration. I may have to start taking arimadex to decrease my estradiol.

No, my testosterone cream is 2.5% 1gram/25mg. An advantage to that is it leaves room for a 5% pregneolone and a 2.5% DHEA. Getting me to a 10% cream like yours.

[mikey]

These posts are interesting and completely contrary to my experience.

All I experience from taking about 7 mg a day, every day are good things

Which I think is perhaps 7 times or more what most people on this forum are taking, and might explain your results. Now that I have a 500 ml bottle of olive oil with about 1g/ml C60, I'll try a dose like that too. I have yet to notice anything at all from C60.

Well, no doubt everyone is somewhat to a lot different.

If I did the full rat dose divided by six for bio equivalency I would be doing 25 mg/day.

I decided on the dose I'm taking after considering cost and that the rat study dose was an effort to find a toxic dose, so I didn't feel that I needed that much.

I've seen a friend's migraine headache stop with 4.6 mg.
Another friend with a broken third metatarsal experience shrinkage of the swollen foot and pain disappear at 3 mg, so it seemed that C60 helped rapid healing of that broken bone.

And I am quite certain that my facial collagen is improving in health because wrinkles and scars are fading, as well as my hair darkening.

I've spent the last 45 years studying orthomolecular nutrition, which always uses higher nutrient doses, so I am biased towards using doses that are higher - and then looking to see if I am experiencing optimal effects.

From Turnbuckle's experience with 2 mg returning his ability to run 4 miles, I am sure that doses that low work, but my experience with nutrients is that for optimal anti-aging effects it's best to err on the side of higher potencies, as long as they are proven to be safe and free from problems.

I'd prefer to be well-covered than risk having just "ok" results.

It's like considering the Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) for nutrients. No studies find that RDA doses produce optimal effects. They are just survival doses where one won't experience a deficiency syndrome.

Thousands of studies show that optimal effects for nutrients occur at doses that are far higher than RDA doses.
See: http://www.michaelmo....net/safety.pdf

Since I believe Dr. Fathi's considered statement, based on his 18 years of research, that C60 is non-toxic, I prefer to have plenty of it rather than what might amount to just barely enough.

It's just my perspective, but it's also based on me seeing definite anti-aging effects that I have seen with no other ingredient.

[scorpe]

Started 22 nov. and must say that every day I can feel within 30-60 m. that my joints feel (much) better and I can bow my fingers to a point
I could do years ago. For some reasons the last few days the improvements seems to stop or even fade away. Sleep less but abt 5 hours deep
and after that trouble to fall asleep again. Energie and mood still seems to be very good.
Also put it one sun burnt spots on my forehead (also had phototherapy) and noticed that my skin feels better/in rest and
(seems to) heal and also feel much softer. Wife and daughter said to me your damaged skin looks very very good now. Not seen in years,,
Something new happens the last few days as I have to scratch my body now and specially my head/hair
I have to cratch abt 10-20 times a day. This is new to me.. I gave it one time to my dog and he also started to scratch himself.

My wife also took it after her car accident and worked wonders for her shoulder and she can move her arm now very well but it does not seem
to have effect on her ribs which still hurt very much. She also put it on her face acne and told me it seems to have some effect on it.
We will continue...

[niner]

These posts are interesting and completely contrary to my experience.

All I experience from taking about 7 mg a day, every day are good things

Which I think is perhaps 7 times or more what most people on this forum are taking, and might explain your results. Now that I have a 500 ml bottle of olive oil with about 1g/ml C60, I'll try a dose like that too. I have yet to notice anything at all from C60.

So far, the reports of tiredness have come from 2 people taking very large doses (Anthony at 130 mg, xtronic at the rat dose (1.7mg/kg) scaled by 1/6, which would come out to 20 mg for a 70 kg person) and from 3 people taking smaller doses- sunshinefrost at 1.5-3 mg daily, Turnbuckle at various dosages, and me at 1.5-2.5 mg. Turnbuckle notes an association with continuous dosing. At this point, there doesn't seem to be much of a dose dependence to this side effect.

[sunshinefrost]

Right.... ... and i whish i had seen this study earlier:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20306705


Kokuritsu Iyakuhin Shokuhin Eisei Kenkyusho Hokoku. 2009;(127):39-43.
[Cytotoxicity of fullerene (60), carbon nanotube, and their derivatives in V79 cells and cultured normal human astrocytes].

[Article in Japanese]
Yamada T, Jung YS, Tsuchiya T, Matsuoka A.

Abstract

Fullerenes are a family of carbon allotropes, molecules composed entirely of carbon. Fullerenes have been developed in various forms and functions and are expected to be used for novel medical materials targeting on brain. Information on cytotoxicity of fullerenes on brain function, however, is few; thus we examined the effect of fullerenes on the brain astrocytes in this study. We used fullerene [60], hydroxylated-fullerene [60], carboxylated-fullerene [60], dimalonilated-fullerene [60], carboxylated-carbon nanotube and amino-carbon nanotube. At first, we examined cytotoxicity of fullerenes by V79 colony assay. Fullerenes inhibited the cell growth in a concentration-dependent manner, but 50 percent growth inhibition concentrations were different among fullerene derivatives, which we used. Cytotoxicity of carbon nanotubes was stronger than that of fullerenes. Secondly, we performed the microtiter tetrazolium assay of normal human astrocytes and measured the effects of fullerenes on cell activity. Fullerenes and carbon nanotubes decreased mitochondrial activity. In addition to this, it was observed that fullerenes and nanotubes adhered to cells. These results suggest that fullerenes and carbon nanotubes have cytotoxicity and the effects are different from each other due to their side chain and steric forms. We expected that fullerenes and carbon nanotubes gave physical stress to cells and caused cytotoxicity. In conclusion, it was suggested that safety evaluation is needed for fullerenes and carbon nanotubes individually.

PMID: 20306705 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Edited by sunshinefrost, 30 November 2012 - 06:03 PM.

[trance]

Not sure if this has been referenced already, but here's an article attempting to confirm the toxicity of C60 aqueous, but found it increased the lifespan of a little Daphnia crustacean by 38% at larger doses compared to lower doses & non-dosed control samples ...

 fullerene-journal.pone.0019976.pdf   806.01KB   21 downloads

Edited by trance, 30 November 2012 - 08:38 PM.