3585 replies to this topic

[niner]

freely sharing ideas that will benefit all of us.

Or kill us?

[maxwatt]

freely sharing ideas that will benefit all of us.

Or kill us?

cynic.

[YOLF]

He's right, it could kill us, I guess it depends on the source of the information. I don't find the dangerous stuff to be attractive enough to give a try myself, perhaps they are desperate? In which case we can do our best to give them hope.

Perhaps I could have better expressed myself as "ideas that COULD benefit all of us."

Personally, I'll stick to the papers and stay away from synthetics.

Edited by cryonicsculture, 04 April 2013 - 01:21 AM.

[niner]

c'mon CC, all the kids are doing it...

[YOLF]

Most of them don't want to live forever!

[hav]

... There was a study recently done which suggested that high dose mitochondrially targeted antioxidant cause lots of oxidative damage, the key with extremely powerful antioxidants(C60) is very low dose continuously use.

Anagram, do you happen to have a reference or link for the study you mention?

Went searching myself and found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20395544

But it's vitamin C specific. And the dosage of 500 mg/kg is crazy. However, it concluded no difference in acute exercise-induced increases in skeletal muscle mitochondrial biogenesis. My recollection is that Anagram found a different study that was specific to some other antioxidant, perhaps vitamin A or E.

Howard

[bacopacabana]

Using around 1.5 mg per day in OO, for around 4 months.

I feel fine, pretty normal, possibly a slight increase in endurance (elliptical trainer, treadmill). The most unusual thing to report is that my core endurance (for crunches) has gone up fairly strikingly. I've never in my life been able to go beyond the range of 40-50, now that level is easy and it feels like I could go on forever, I generally stop out of boredom now. Been doing crunches for about 40 years now.

[anagram]

Sorry but I cannot find the study suggesting that use of high dose Mito- targeted antioxidants are bad for longevity and are toxic, It was in another thread here on longecity, but I cannot don't remember which one it was.
I can substantiate claims that my mixture of C60+C70 is not produced efficiently and I would not suggest anyone uses this level of low quality C60C70-oo.
It is actually a bit bad for "brain" health as I have come to find while "doseing" with it, it feels "painful" in a weird way which I have guessed some sort of immune response however this is simply conjecture and I still am awaiting "real" studies on C70 in mammalian cultures.

Here are my reasons for not properly mixing my C60.
- (THF) is toxic on its own and the study using it describing toxicity of C60 mentioned that colloidal C60 did not present similar toxicity seen with THF + aggregates, the aggregates have relatively little toxicity even in water!
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19746740
-unsaturated fats which comprise olive oil form epoxides when heated.
- $$$ = centrifuge, mixing, heating...

This is just personal opinion on the subject of C60-oo.

[anagram]

I have mixed Astaxanthin as well as Lycopene with C60 in the hopes of improving its bioavaliability. Mixing these compounds could easily be very toxic, I stopped taking Astaxanthin as well as Lycopene from fear from suffering some sort of reaction with C60 + long chain hydrocarbons. There was a study recently done which suggested that high dose mitochondrially targeted antioxidant cause lots of oxidative damage, the key with extremely powerful antioxidants(C60) is very low dose continuously use.

Anagram, do you happen to have a reference or link for the study you mention?

sorry, my post above was a reply to this.


-In my earlier post I forgot to mention that my experiments with C60 have been all over the place.
I have made and used a few "religious" doses, massive quantities of C60/C70.

[petitemort]

Hi,
As I'm concerned with behaving of C60 when excreted through urine, I keep on searching on the internet and found today those studies. Could anyone clarify some points for me please?

My concern is to know if C60 excreted trough urine may turn into those bricked shaped agregates identified as cytotoxic.

So is that possible from the éléments exposed at the end of the first study , to deduce, regarding to the chemical interaction of C60 with the différents metabolites in presence (including water of course in urine), the behaving of C60?

And,about the second one, might C60's accumulation in liver, with long term use, be a bad thing?



http://onlinelibrary...t.1503/abstract

http://www.sciencedi...045206896900322

Cheers

Edited by petitemort, 13 April 2013 - 07:34 PM.

[pleb]

from the Baati rat trails on C60 i have read that it is not excreted via the urine only in the fecces

Edited by pleb, 13 April 2013 - 07:45 PM.

[petitemort]

Yes, the study I was reading says only "Less that 4% of the dose was recovered in the maternal spleen, heart, brain, urine or feces", so it's true that is a very little. but it was just to know, anyway thanks for your answer Pleb, And in fact, rhm, as I drink it I was noticing very subjectively that it was a little bit darker since I take C60 what could suggest the présence of agregates, but again as urine's colour changes for many reasons nothing can confirm it is due to C60 regarding It could contain at most 1% of the intake.
Ok I'm a bit more confortable.

Edited by petitemort, 13 April 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[niner]

As I'm concerned with behaving of C60 when excreted through urine, I keep on searching on the internet and found today those studies. Could anyone clarify some points for me please?

My concern is to know if C60 excreted trough urine may turn into those bricked shaped agregates identified as cytotoxic.

So is that possible from the éléments exposed at the end of the first study , to deduce, regarding to the chemical interaction of C60 with the différents metabolites in presence (including water of course in urine), the behaving of C60?

And,about the second one, might C60's accumulation in liver, with long term use, be a bad thing?

http://onlinelibrary...t.1503/abstract

http://www.sciencedi...045206896900322

In the first study, they used a suspension of "pristine" (unsubstituted) C60 in polyvinylpyrrolidone, which is essentially an emulsifying agent. In the second study, they used both pristine C60 and C60 with a positively charged substituent. The pristine C60 in both cases will likely be in the form of small aggregates. The Substituted version in the second paper might be water soluble. The C60 that we are using has negatively charged substituents; the fatty acids found in olive oil, to which it is bound. I don't think that these cases are entirely comparable. C60-oo will not exist in aggregated form; rather it is a single molecule. It will tend to localize in membranes, with its involvement in mitochondrial membranes presumably conferring most of the observed effects.

To answer your questions, I don't think there is any danger of aggregates in urine. I also don't think that C60-oo will accumulate in the liver any more than any other tissue. It is actually helpful to have it in the liver membranes in the event that you consume an oxidative poison, as was demonstrated in Baati when they administered CCl4 to some of their rats.

In summary, I don't think there's anything to worry about here.

[petitemort]

Great, thank you Niner. ;-)

Niner says:" It is actually helpful to have it in the liver membranes in the event that you consume an oxidative poison"

And I think: "as alcohol?"

Edited by petitemort, 13 April 2013 - 10:17 PM.

[smithx]

There is probably an optimal dose of C60, an optimal level of membrane saturation, and there is also probably an excessive dose of C60 and a dose at which the membranes are too saturated and it starts becoming counter productive.

We have no idea so far what those levels are, so I would urge people not to overdo it until we have more information.

[tintinet]

There is probably an optimal dose of C60, an optimal level of membrane saturation, and there is also probably an excessive dose of C60 and a dose at which the membranes are too saturated and it starts becoming counter productive.

We have no idea so far what those levels are, so I would urge people not to overdo it until we have more information.

At what amount and frequency of intake might be considered excessive? Any greater than zero? 1 mg/day? 10 mg/day (or week or month)?

Edited by tintinet, 15 April 2013 - 02:26 AM.

[Kevnzworld]

There is probably an optimal dose of C60, an optimal level of membrane saturation, and there is also probably an excessive dose of C60 and a dose at which the membranes are too saturated and it starts becoming counter productive.

We have no idea so far what those levels are, so I would urge people not to overdo it until we have more information.

At what amount and frequency of intake might be considered excessive? Any greater than zero? 1 mg/day? 10 mg/day (or week or month)?

That's obviously unknown. I took .8 mg per day, every other week for four months . I recently had a blood test, and nothing was abnormal or changed..including liver enzymes.
I increased my dosage to once a day temporarily because of C60's supposed liver protection abilities. I am currently on an extended vacation and I'm consuming more wine/ alcohol than I probably should...
Hopefully the C60 consumption and its potential benefits is outweighing my alcohol consumption...!

Edited by Kevnzworld, 15 April 2013 - 02:59 AM.

[mikey]

There is probably an optimal dose of C60, an optimal level of membrane saturation, and there is also probably an excessive dose of C60 and a dose at which the membranes are too saturated and it starts becoming counter productive.

We have no idea so far what those levels are, so I would urge people not to overdo it until we have more information.

At what amount and frequency of intake might be considered excessive? Any greater than zero? 1 mg/day? 10 mg/day (or week or month)?

The notion of overloading seems odd, considering that the study gave the rats an ultra-high dose that was considered to have the potential to cause toxicity, but found none.

If I took the human bioequivalent dose of what they gave the rats, it would be ~25 mg/day.

Since some people on here have experienced profound effects with small doses, like 2 mg/day, I decided to take what might be a somewhat high dose of 7 mg/day and have every day since early August.

Anthony took a full dose, equal to the rat dose (not bioequivalent) for a while and didn't seem to experience any problems.

So, it seems that there is no toxic dose, which is what Dr. Moussa said in his video interview.

It's "absolutely" not toxic, is what he said, "even when taken long-term."

[Chupo]

So, if there is no toxicity, what happens to the excess C60-oo once membranes are saturated? Is it stored in fat cells? Can it be burned? If one is on a ketogenic diet and lipid turnover is increased, will this effect the elimination rate of C60-oo?

[hav]

It's not yet know how the body gets rid of the c60 it absorbs. I seem to remember reading a study that found only undissolved c60 gets excreted in the feces. But maybe that study wasn't long term or sensitive enough to detect c60 being excreted along with the remains of senescent cells. The consensus here seems to believe that body temperatures are too low and c60 too stable to support breaking apart the c60 within the body into more basic carbon forms that might oxidize and be exhaled as C0₂. But exfoliation and hair loss are other possibilities.

I don't think anyone knows what a body's c60 saturation limit is. We do know that non-obese males tend to have a fat composition of from 18 to 24%. (Females are 6 to 7% higher.) But I don't think anyone has any stats on what the c60 solubility might be for that mix of body fats. I suspect its lower than c60 solubility in olive oil. Anyway, a lean 160 pound male with a fat composition of 18% would contain a total of around 29 pounds of fat. And assuming olive oil solubility as an upper limit of human body fat c60 solubility... and given that a gallon of olive oil weighs 7.6 pounds... a theoretical upper limit might be calculated assuming all that fat was olive oil in the amount of 14 liters. I have no idea of what the actual body-fat equivalence might be ... maybe around 7 liters? Whatever it is, it would probably take even Anthony a couple of years to consume that much olive oil with the maximum .9 mg/ml dissolved into it. And if you assume any excretion or consumption of the c60 over time, it would take that much longer.

Howard

Edited by hav, 15 April 2013 - 06:42 PM.

[docTorpedo]

Anyone notice they have better balance? I think its highly likely that its just a coincidence that i suddenly observed myself having good balance when moving around. Haven't noticed anything else change, but I wasn't really expecting anything to happen.

Edited by docTorpedo, 16 April 2013 - 07:19 PM.

[YOLF]

I've seen reports of better balance. It's possible. There are leads suggesting that it might be related to increased T levels... I saw a report that one user may have been boosting their T levels to the point of their eyes burning. This was a woman though, men don't have this problem. Turnbuckle had made the suggestion. Usually the young don't notice as many positive effects unless they have or are at risk certain maladies. Do you have anything like that in your family? Drinking alot at college w/frequent hangovers?

[docTorpedo]

Oh my, I don't really want increased testosterone levels, if all I would want them to decrease. Maybe i'l go get my blood screened. I can't say I'm in great health, I have problems with muscles but there is no change in these muscle problems that I can notice when taking C60.

Edited by docTorpedo, 17 April 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[niner]

Anyone notice they have better balance? I think its highly likely that its just a coincidence that i suddenly observed myself having good balance when moving around. Haven't noticed anything else change, but I wasn't really expecting anything to happen.

I haven't noticed this. Was your balance bad to begin with? How long had you been taking c60?

I've seen reports of better balance. It's possible. There are leads suggesting that it might be related to increased T levels... I saw a report that one user may have been boosting their T levels to the point of their eyes burning. This was a woman though, men don't have this problem. Turnbuckle had made the suggestion. Usually the young don't notice as many positive effects unless they have or are at risk certain maladies. Do you have anything like that in your family? Drinking alot at college w/frequent hangovers?

I don't buy this "boosting their T levels to the point of their eyes burning". I've kept a pretty close eye on c60 posts, and I don't recall that, for one thing. Do you have a link to it? For another thing, there are lots of reasons why eyes might burn, like allergies. I think high T is pretty low on that list, in terms of likelihood. I very much doubt that this person has any evidence that their T is high. T is actually a treatment for dry eyes- the whole thing makes no sense.

Oh my, I don't really want increased testosterone levels, if all I would want them to decrease. Maybe i'l go get my blood screened. I can't say I'm in great health, I have problems with muscles but there is no change in these muscle problems that I can notice when taking C60.

I'd hold off on that testing if I were you. What sort of muscle problems do you have? Are they by any chance related to mitochondrial problems? History of statin use? If so, c60 might be impacting your muscles, perhaps in a way that helps balance.

[docTorpedo]

No history of statin use. Its very hard to explain my muscle problem. as health practitioners havent been able to help me and just recently after many many years of not knowing I am about 90% sure that I know myself what the issue is. Its that I use my eye in an unnatural way, it can be compared to forcing your eyes to cross, it takes effort and it strains, only how I'm tensing my eyes is so slight even the optician can't notice it. I can definitely notice it in my vision now that I am aware of it. But I don't know how to control it. Every time i manage to get my vision to focus properly again, its very apparent in my visual field, as a result of this release every muscle in my neck and face releases. As it is now im tense to the point that my back has become crooked (from many years of tension), fine sensation in my skin is impaired probably because of nerve interference, and its hard to breath etc...

Its so weird that just by the use of my eyes I can tense myself up like this, I know it sounds weird, but the correlation i have been observing for many months now between when my vision being "restored" and other muscles in my body releasing instantly as I do, I can say that this is most likely the problem. Also I never got to release these body muscles by any other means than moving the focus of my vision.

In short the only time I have had bad balance is when I lift heavy stuff for a while, and it doesnt last, maybe a week I will not be steady on my feet. It has only happened three times in five years. Otherwise im really stable on my feet despite all the tension...
The perception of better balance, I don't know where came from, I was just kind of surprised how steady I was in some postures which I have been doing many times before. I only payed attention to it for a week, as I was out of C60 at the beginning of noticing it. It lasted for longer than what I used C60.
Probably coincidence. Long post for nothing sorry. Just wanted to see if there where other reports about this...

Edited by docTorpedo, 17 April 2013 - 04:50 PM.

[YOLF]

Oh my, I don't really want increased testosterone levels, if all I would want them to decrease. Maybe i'l go get my blood screened. I can't say I'm in great health, I have problems with muscles but there is no change in these muscle problems that I can notice when taking C60.

Don't worry, you won't bulk up if that's what you're thinking. You shouldn't really worry about high T levels. It's low levels that actually cause dangerous behavior in men that compensate somewhat for the low levels. I don't know why guys always seem to have this wrong. T is our right as men. The inattention, less alertness, and compromised coordination is too much of a liability to have people running around with low T. It causes increased risk of auto accidents, cancer, and several other health related concerns.

Anyone notice they have better balance? I think its highly likely that its just a coincidence that i suddenly observed myself having good balance when moving around. Haven't noticed anything else change, but I wasn't really expecting anything to happen.

I haven't noticed this. Was your balance bad to begin with? How long had you been taking c60?

I've seen reports of better balance. It's possible. There are leads suggesting that it might be related to increased T levels... I saw a report that one user may have been boosting their T levels to the point of their eyes burning. This was a woman though, men don't have this problem. Turnbuckle had made the suggestion. Usually the young don't notice as many positive effects unless they have or are at risk certain maladies. Do you have anything like that in your family? Drinking alot at college w/frequent hangovers?

I don't buy this "boosting their T levels to the point of their eyes burning". I've kept a pretty close eye on c60 posts, and I don't recall that, for one thing. Do you have a link to it? For another thing, there are lots of reasons why eyes might burn, like allergies. I think high T is pretty low on that list, in terms of likelihood. I very much doubt that this person has any evidence that their T is high. T is actually a treatment for dry eyes- the whole thing makes no sense.

Oh my, I don't really want increased testosterone levels, if all I would want them to decrease. Maybe i'l go get my blood screened. I can't say I'm in great health, I have problems with muscles but there is no change in these muscle problems that I can notice when taking C60.

I'd hold off on that testing if I were you. What sort of muscle problems do you have? Are they by any chance related to mitochondrial problems? History of statin use? If so, c60 might be impacting your muscles, perhaps in a way that helps balance.

PM'd you the screen name of the poster, post is in this sub forum.

[YOLF]

No history of statin use. Its very hard to explain my muscle problem. as health practitioners havent been able to help me and just recently after many many years of not knowing I am about 90% sure that I know myself what the issue is. Its that I use my eye in an unnatural way, it can be compared to forcing your eyes to cross, it takes effort and it strains, only how I'm tensing my eyes is so slight even the optician can't notice it. I can definitely notice it in my vision now that I am aware of it. But I don't know how to control it. Every time i manage to get my vision to focus properly again, its very apparent in my visual field, as a result of this release every muscle in my neck and face releases. As it is now im tense to the point that my back has become crooked (from many years of tension), fine sensation in my skin is impaired probably because of nerve interference, and its hard to breath etc...

Its so weird that just by the use of my eyes I can tense myself up like this, I know it sounds weird, but the correlation i have been observing for many months now between when my vision being "restored" and other muscles in my body releasing instantly as I do, I can say that this is most likely the problem. Also I never got to release these body muscles by any other means than moving the focus of my vision.

In short the only time I have had bad balance is when I lift heavy stuff for a while, and it doesnt last, maybe a week I will not be steady on my feet. It has only happened three times in five years. Otherwise im really stable on my feet despite all the tension...
The perception of better balance, I don't know where came from, I was just kind of surprised how steady I was in some postures which I have been doing many times before. I only payed attention to it for a week, as I was out of C60 at the beginning of noticing it. It lasted for longer than what I used C60.
Probably coincidence. Long post for nothing sorry. Just wanted to see if there where other reports about this...

Does it go away if you take something to relax or have a few shots of liquor?

[niner]

OK, DocTorpedo, you can forget the testosterone thing. The user's eyes were burning from raw onions, not T. Your situation sounds more like a neurological problem than a muscle problem. Maybe a neurologist could help? If it's gotten to the point of causing your back to become crooked, it sounds like a real problem that could use a fix. Acupuncture? Chiropractic manipulation? I don't know. It's a very weird case. Ever take valium/diazepam or something similar?

[docTorpedo]

testosterone forgotten. yes i thought also maybe neurological. but once I shaked the "habit" off for many months, I have no clue how I did it, at that time I thought it was all just physical, but eventually I started tensing again.
Liquor used to sometimes take it away, not anymore, even when I'm dead drunk. I wake up like this...
there is scoliosis running in my family that is unnoticeable to see with an untrained eye, but mine is very noticeable and did get so after the age of 18 which is very rare in males. the tension is going all around my body, so this is likely the cause for making it so apparent in my case.
My psychiatrist haven't this far wanted to give me Valium as I think she is concerned I might get addicted since the condition feels very unpleasant.
Iv tried two different chiropractors, yoga, physiotherapy. none of them made any difference for better or worse. I went to massage therapist and she said I was tense but not very tense, but she said I was unable to relax...
It is most likely a form of obsessive thought/habbit that I cant get rid of, the habit being an unnatural self inflicted positioning of my eyes. I remember the day I started doing it, and I was confused to say the least. I just don't know how to control my eyes to make it stop. I seem to have stuck them in this position, and only occasionally I can take them to relaxed position.
Well enough about this and more about C60 yaw...

Edited by docTorpedo, 17 April 2013 - 11:05 PM.

[eddielang]

testosterone forgotten. yes i thought also maybe neurological. but once I shaked the "habit" off for many months, I have no clue how I did it, at that time I thought it was all just physical, but eventually I started tensing again.
Liquor used to sometimes take it away, not anymore, even when I'm dead drunk. I wake up like this...
there is scoliosis running in my family that is unnoticeable to see with an untrained eye, but mine is very noticeable and did get so after the age of 18 which is very rare in males. the tension is going all around my body, so this is likely the cause for making it so apparent in my case.
My psychiatrist haven't this far wanted to give me Valium as I think she is concerned I might get addicted since the condition feels very unpleasant.
Iv tried two different chiropractors, yoga, physiotherapy. none of them made any difference for better or worse. I went to massage therapist and she said I was tense but not very tense, but she said I was unable to relax...
It is most likely a form of obsessive thought/habbit that I cant get rid of, the habit being an unnatural self inflicted positioning of my eyes. I remember the day I started doing it, and I was confused to say the least. I just don't know how to control my eyes to make it stop. I seem to have stuck them in this position, and only occasionally I can take them to relaxed position.
Well enough about this and more about C60 yaw...

Not sure where you are located, but you might consider the Alexander Technique.

Worked well enough for me that I changed careers to become a teacher. The tough part is finding a competent teacher if you aren't near a major city.