3585 replies to this topic

[sensei]

 

about a year ago I read that a mouse trial had shown C60 -oo had stopped metastasis from developing and slowed down the cancer growth to 1/3 what would be expected,
and 70 percent of cancer deaths are caused by metastasis,

 

Yep, metastasis appears to be a kind of controlled apoptosis, when some cancer cells disintegrate in order to spread the remaining cells around. Apoptosis is controlled by mitochondria basically exploding inside cells, and mitochondrial anti-oxidants can block this.

 

 

 

You couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Impaired apoptosis enhances metastasis.

 

"Apoptosis may block metastatic dissemination by killing misplaced cells. Thus, apoptosis serves as an important process for inhibiting metastasis. The success of the metastatic process relies on the ability of malignant cells to escape apoptosis. "

 

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4343053/

[QuestforLife]

There's a little more to it than that, Sensei. Apoptosis is used by cells to stop cancer, but once cancer has control of the cell it controls the mitochondria too, and can adjust ROS production to suit its own purposes. Normally cancer just turns mitochondria off, because they grow without the need for oxygen (cancer is like a primitive lifeform or a very early stage embryo). But there is evidence cancer also use mitochondria to metastasize. The following paper has more:

http://www.cell.com/...1247(14)00527-0

[hav]

 

 Best to discuss it with your doctor.

 

 

 

 

Why on earth would you think that best? Do you really imagine his doctor has even heard of it?

 

 

Because a person's cancer doctor would know more about a particular cancer treatment than someone who hasn't made it their life's work.  Comparatively speaking, a doctor finding out about a particular supplement like c60 is easy... almost anyone can do it.  Not a good idea for someone diagnosed with cancer to keep their oncologist in the dark unless they have a death wish. An even worse idea to advise anyone to do that.

 

Howard

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

 Best to discuss it with your doctor.

 

 

 

 

Why on earth would you think that best? Do you really imagine his doctor has even heard of it?

 

 

Because a person's cancer doctor would know more about a particular cancer treatment than someone who hasn't made it their life's work.  Comparatively speaking, a doctor finding out about a particular supplement like c60 is easy... almost anyone can do it.  Not a good idea for someone diagnosed with cancer to keep their oncologist in the dark unless they have a death wish. An even worse idea to advise anyone to do that.

 

Howard

 

 

The cancer doctors I've talked to were only interested in 5 year survival rates. If a particular treatment destroyed your memory they wouldn't care. If you got cancer again at 6 years they would tell you it's a new cancer. So none of them will tell you C60 is a good idea. You don't even need to ask.

[hav]

The cancer doctors I've talked to were only interested in 5 year survival rates. If a particular treatment destroyed your memory they wouldn't care. If you got cancer again at 6 years they would tell you it's a new cancer. So none of them will tell you C60 is a good idea. You don't even need to ask.

 

 

I personally would stop taking c60 myself if undergoing chemo.  Based on Baati observations of the partially protective effect c60 had on rats treated with CCL4.  Baati speculated that such a protective effect might be due to c60 being a powerful anti-oxidant.  Here's the quote:

 

 

Finally, as C60 is known to be a powerfull antioxidant [5,6,21], we checked the effects of C60-olive oil solutions on oxidative stress in a classical model of CCl4 intoxication in rats [28,29]. Although the oxidative stress involved in CCl4 intoxication is unlikely to occur during physiopathological conditions, CCl4 intoxication in rats provides an important model for elucidation of the mechanism of action of hepatotoxic effects such as fatty degeneration (steatosis), fibrosis, hepatocellular death, and carcinogenicity involving oxidative stress [28,29].

My take away from the above is that c60 might be highly protective against carcinogenicity thus preventing cancer but might also be protective in blunting a chemo or other treatment that relies on targeting cancer cells with oxidative stress to destroy them.  Depending on the specific treatment and mechanism of action which I'd expect the prescribing cancer doctor would or should know.
 

Howard

[Turnbuckle]

The info on direct action of C60/EVOO on cancer is scant to none, but it certainly could help the side effects such as hepatotoxicity. In that paper C60/EVOO was used, and the researchers found that "fullerene C60 is significantly normalized both blood and liver parameters altered by cyclophosphamide-induced toxicities." It can also have direct effects and as as an adjunct such as with Doxorubicin, where colloidal C60 was used instead of C60/EVOO. However as the studies are with rodents, I doubt that any oncologist is going to approve of it.

[sensei]

There's a little more to it than that, Sensei. Apoptosis is used by cells to stop cancer, but once cancer has control of the cell it controls the mitochondria too, and can adjust ROS production to suit its own purposes. Normally cancer just turns mitochondria off, because they grow without the need for oxygen (cancer is like a primitive lifeform or a very early stage embryo). But there is evidence cancer also use mitochondria to metastasize. The following paper has more:

http://www.cell.com/...1247(14)00527-0

 

 

 

Read trhe paper you cited -- it has NOTHING to do with apoptosis, in fact apoptosis is only mentioned once, in that many anti-cancer therapies rely on ROS induced apoptosis.

 

Apoptosis DOES NOT promote metastasis, cellular RESISTANCE TO APOPTOSIS does.

[QuestforLife]

Well apoptosis and metastasis both use mitochondria, and mito targeted antioxidants can block both. So I'm not disagreeing with you there. I think overall though that blocking metastasis is likely a fair trade for reduced apoptosis.

[sensei]

Well apoptosis and metastasis both use mitochondria, and mito targeted antioxidants can block both. So I'm not disagreeing with you there. I think overall though that blocking metastasis is likely a fair trade for reduced apoptosis.

Increasing apoptosis decreases metastasis.

Decreasing apoptosis -- increases metastasis.

Edited by sensei, 23 February 2018 - 07:28 PM.

[Nate-2004]

Here's a video I made recently with Tree Czar Comedy, somewhat relevant.

 

 

[apmark]

That is hilarious Nate, more so because I used to love listening to Deborah Harry.once I had a love. Which somehow came up after the olive oil vid on my screen.
That being said I don't like our 2 c60 expert's having any infighting either.

Edited by apmark, 23 February 2018 - 11:30 PM.

[hav]

 

Increasing apoptosis decreases metastasis.

Decreasing apoptosis -- increases metastasis.

 

 

That's probably only meaningful as to existing cancer cells.  Metastasis by definition is the spreading of existing cancer to healthy cells.  Treatment strategies usually involve trying to kill all the cancer before it spreads.  But not healthy cells.  Indeed, destruction of healthy cells reduces treatment survival chances.

 

Howard
 

[Captain Obvious]

 

That's probably only meaningful as to existing cancer cells.  Metastasis by definition is the spreading of existing cancer to healthy cells.

 

 

Isn't metastasis is (by definition) the spreading of cancer cells AMONG healthy cells elsewhere in the body?

 

"Metastases (the plural form of metastasis) most commonly develop when cancer cells break away from the main tumor and enter the bloodstream or lymphatic system. These systems carry fluids around the body. This means that the cancer cells can travel far from the original tumor and form new tumors when they settle and grow in a different part of the body. Metastases can also sometimes develop when cancer cells from the main tumor, typically in the abdominal (belly) cavity, break off and directly “seed” other areas within the abdominal cavity."

Edited by Captain Obvious, 24 February 2018 - 10:38 AM.

[sensei]

Increasing apoptosis decreases metastasis.

Decreasing apoptosis -- increases metastasis.

That's probably only meaningful as to existing cancer cells. Metastasis by definition is the spreading of existing cancer to healthy cells. Treatment strategies usually involve trying to kill all the cancer before it spreads. But not healthy cells. Indeed, destruction of healthy cells reduces treatment survival chances.

Howard

As CA posted, metastasis ONLY RELEVANT TO CANCER.

Therefore, anything that reduces apoptosis, increases the number of viable CANCER cells available to metastasize.

Apoptosis is the programmed call death of ABNORMAL and SENESCENT cells, cancerous or otherwise.

Increased Apoptosis is VIRTUALLY ALWAYS better for survival,of the organism as it allows resources to be used by viable cells.

[hav]

 

 

Increasing apoptosis decreases metastasis.

Decreasing apoptosis -- increases metastasis.

That's probably only meaningful as to existing cancer cells. Metastasis by definition is the spreading of existing cancer to healthy cells. Treatment strategies usually involve trying to kill all the cancer before it spreads. But not healthy cells. Indeed, destruction of healthy cells reduces treatment survival chances.

Howard

As CA posted, metastasis ONLY RELEVANT TO CANCER.

Therefore, anything that reduces apoptosis, increases the number of viable CANCER cells available to metastasize.

Apoptosis is the programmed call death of ABNORMAL and SENESCENT cells, cancerous or otherwise.

Increased Apoptosis is VIRTUALLY ALWAYS better for survival,of the organism as it allows resources to be used by viable cells.

 

 

Yes, but apoptosis is a more general concept that also applies to healthy cells.  In fact, increasing apoptosis of healthy cells might not decrease metastasis... unless a quick death results.  Indeed, if treatment excessively targets previously healthy cells short of causing death, while failing to target cancer cells sufficiently, it might increase metastasis. 

 

Howard
 

[sensei]

Apoptosis does not normally happen to healthy cells, even under high ROS load because of catalase and hydroxyperoxidase production

[QuestforLife]

I beleive this is relevant to the discussion.

Abstract
Excessive production of mitochondrial reactive oxygen species (mROS) is strongly associated with mitochondrial and cellular oxidative damage, aging, and degenerative diseases. However, mROS also induces pathways of protection of mitochondria that slow aging, inhibit cell death, and increase lifespan. Recent studies show that the activation of the mitochondrial permeability transition pore (mPTP), which is triggered by mROS and mitochondrial calcium overloading, is enhanced in aged animals and humans and in aging-related degenerative diseases. mPTP opening initiates further production and release of mROS that damage both mitochondrial and nuclear DNA, proteins, and phospholipids, and also releases matrix NAD that is hydrolyzed in the intermembrane space, thus contributing to the depletion of cellular NAD that accelerates aging. Oxidative damage to calcium transporters leads to calcium overload and more frequent opening of mPTP. Because aging enhances the opening of the mPTP and mPTP opening accelerates aging, we suggest that mPTP opening drives the progression of aging. Activation of the mPTP is regulated, directly and indirectly, not only by the mitochondrial protection pathways that are induced by mROS, but also by pro-apoptotic signals that are induced by DNA damage. We suggest that the integration of these contrasting signals by the mPTP largely determines the rate of cell aging and the initiation of cell death, and thus animal lifespan. The suggestion that the control of mPTP activation is critical for the progression of aging can explain the conflicting and confusing evidence regarding the beneficial and deleterious effects of mROS on health and lifespan.

From
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5595682/

[Rupe]

Okay, so hypothetically, if C60 specifically targeted cancerous cells (which it doesn't) while simultaneously up-regulating mitochondrial function and decreasing inflammation, you could potentially suppress metastatic behavior, correct?? Is that what I'm getting or am I way off base with my interpretation of what's being said.

[Zadhu]

Hello all, info is great! I was wondering if anyone had tried making C60 oil with hemp seed oil. What are your thoughts?

[hav]

Apoptosis does not normally happen to healthy cells, even under high ROS load because of catalase and hydroxyperoxidase production

 

Should happen to every healthy cell... eventually. 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...books/NBK26873/

 

The cells of a multicellular organism are members of a highly organized community. The number of cells in this community is tightly regulated—not simply by controlling the rate of cell division, but also by controlling the rate of cell death. If cells are no longer needed, they commit suicide by activating an intracellular death program. This process is therefore called programmed cell death, although it is more commonly called apoptosis (from a Greek word meaning “falling off,” as leaves from a tree).

 

Which lies at the foundation of telomere aging and cancer theories.  See: https://academic.oup.../11/803/2581409

 

It's my personal belief that for cancer prevention, C60 might be extremely synergistic with telomerase activation if keeping telomeres long and healthy delays apoptosis while C60's super antioxidant properties minimize oxidative stress at the cellular level.

 

Howard

[QuestforLife]

From the paper I posted above, we can see that the MPTP opens more and more often as we age, and indeed there is more evidence of mtDNA leakage since then via other mechanisms, see this paper hot off the press:  'BAK/BAX macropores facilitate mitochondrial herniation and mtDNA efflux during apoptosis' (full paper available through Sci-hub).

 

This is very dangerous as free mtDNA in the blood is attacked by the immune system as it recognizes it as bacterial DNA (which it is). This causes a large rise in inflammation, with all the consequent problems that entails (including faster telomere attrition). So absolutely a powerful mitochondrial antioxidant such as C60 in olive oil could block this process. I also suspect C60 is affecting macrophages more directly through accumulation in the spleen (see many posts along these lines by High Desert Wizard).

Edited by QuestforLife, 06 March 2018 - 09:33 AM.

[ambivalent]

Obviously somewhat remiss in risk and conflating c60 with c60oo but this is a big article in a health magazine.

https://www.wddty.co...revolution.html

[aaCharley]

I've never had a problem simply shaking it up.

 

crushing/grinding the C60 into a superfine powder prior to adding the olive oil has always helped prevent sediment deposit

 

sensei,

How do you crush and grind the C60?
 

[markymark]

There are no posts on C60 since two weeks. I wonder where the knowledgeable contributors went?

MM

[SteampunkScientist]

C60 sounds interesting, however I would like to see a lot more work on it by reputable scientists after reading the following: https://www.newscien...lls-questioned/

 

The fact that Aubrey de Grey has questions about it - I think I would want to see more research.

[SteampunkScientist]

Hmmm, apparently wanting to know if something actually works using actual science is "pointless and time wasting". Strange that.

[eigenber]

Hmmm, apparently wanting to know if something actually works using actual science is "pointless and time wasting". Strange that.

It's only pointless if you're one of the many troll morons infecting this site.

[SteampunkScientist]

It's only pointless if you're one of the many troll morons infecting this site.

 

Well I am not good sir.  I actually am here to learn from those who are interested in these things,

 

So the only troll, was whoever left that comment on my post - obviously someone who did not take the time to read or understand my comment, or, as you say, is simply a troll.

 

Now getting back to actual science - I am interested in the actual science done to show that C60 and it's variants (ie C70) do indeed scavenge oxidizers, or perform other repairative functions in the body.

[eigenber]

Admittedly I've not read every post, but as far as I can tell, the actual data, the science on C60 in living organisms, is near zero, and the anecdote/placebo is near total.

[bosozok]

Hopefully, there are some experienced c60 users reading these posts and willing to answer. If you are one of those could you tell me if Carbon 60, 99.8%, 1 gram, Vacuum Oven Dried – N2 Purged by SES is safe?

 

The alternative is $140 more a gram (carbon 60, 99.99 %, 1 gram UHP, Vacuum Oven Dried – N2 Purged). 

 

I would really like to buy the Ultra High Purity, but wonder if the slight possible presence of solvent is an issue that makes the difference of .2 over 99.8 really worth the extra $140 a gram?

 

Edited by bosozok, 18 January 2019 - 01:39 PM.