3585 replies to this topic

[daouda]

At this point, i fear folks maybe posting placebo effects. Compared to resveratrol, where i have seen some obvious changes... I don't see any incredible changes from C60 so far.

Well...Ok, strike that... I have had an increase in sex drive, maybe better skin(this one is debatable) and a reduction in stress ...

Anthony, what kind of "obvious changes" have you seen from resveratrol that you havent seen with c60 and in what time frame ? How long have you been taking the c60 for and at which dose? Would you mind disclosing your age? For the hair stuff, do you have some degree of alopecia to begin with?

Edited by daouda, 21 June 2012 - 04:07 PM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Hi daouda,

I really don't want to talk about res on this thread but I think you need to visit the resveratrol forum regarding resveratrol questions and get you up to speed, specially the 500 Club thread, since I clearly fall in to that category: http://www.longecity...ratrol-per-day/

My information:
======================================================================
Name: Anthony Loera (Yes that is my real name!)
Occupation: Office worker (mostly in front of computer)
Residence: Miami, mostly hot year round.
Age: 40 (Will be 41 in August)
Weight: 190lbs (I actually went up when drinking the OO, Maybe it will go down when I am not)
My Health Tests Before C60 (Biophysical 250: They are posted here) I can get ya a discount on one, if you want it.
My Health Tests After C60 TBD after I think something is really happening...
C60 Dose: (130mg - 150mg Daily in OO) about 4/5 a cup of OO daiily (or 12.8 tablespoons daily)
Time frame: 7 days so far (I figure I would now try once a week per the Baati study, but may try a second week daily doses again)
Smoke? Never, unless its a Cuban and only on a special occasion (So far only about 4 cubans in my life)
Drink? Occasionally. But I don't like beer too much, I prefer Pinot Grigio, Don Julio 1942, Wine, Whiskey Sour, Margaritas, Bloody Marys.
Exercise? Rarely, I am trying... but I would say I can't nail down a regular schedule.
Max Bench Press: 170lbs, at least that was before C60. I suppose I should work out on weights to see if this increases after C60.
Hair: Black, and It looks good, but I do notice a light receding. If hair grows in the small receding areas, I will definitely know it. I see no changes with C60.

======================================================================

Possible effects noticed:

======================================================================
Personal Caveat: I would say these might be placebo at this time... give me a few weeks before I can say otherwise.

- Increased Sex Drive?
I am not sure if it's an increase in sex drive, or a change in perception of previous females
that I wasn't attracted to prior to C60 (ie. Jennifer Anniston) I have ALWAYS thought she was
so darn plain, and maybe she still is. Do I think she is as attractive as say....
a young Sade, Jennifer Connely, or Adriana Lima? Nope, but my perception has changed recently.

- Better skin?
It looks like my skin pores are smaller after using it topically. Again, this is debatable.

- Reduction in stress?
A couple things happened toward the last part of my treatment, which normally would have me
pulling my hair out, losing sleep, etc... it didn't happen. I actually was pretty calm, during it all.
Which surprised the heck out of me.

======================================================================


Ok, I think I have established some personal data that we can compare again, in the future.

Cheers
A

[niner]

Smoke? Never, unless its a Cuban and only on a special occasion (So far only about 4 cubans in my life)

And they don't complain about this?

[Anthony_Loera]

Smoke? Never, unless its a Cuban and only on a special occasion (So far only about 4 cubans in my life)

And they don't complain about this?

Hahaha...

I guess you need to be caught first...
(Imagine if my last name was Montana... living in miami? I think I would have to move... hehehe)

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 21 June 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[HighDesertWizard]

... Meanwhile, humans that make it to the age of 110 inevitably have a high level of systemic amyloidosis that contributes to a lot of mortality & morbidity, so maybe we should start looking for interventions that prevent it. As fate may have it, resveratrol is reported to be an inhibitor of several important types of amyloidosis. Whether or not it occurs at human-relevant dosage I am not aware.

Just a smattering of Amyloidosis studies...
----------------------------------
vis-a-vis TNF

Long-term TNF-α Blockade in Patients with Amyloid A Amyloidosis Complicating Rheumatic Diseases

Autosomal dominant periodic fever with AA amyloidosis: tumor necrosis factor receptor-associated periodic syndrome (TRAPS) in a Turkish family

Anti–Tumor Necrosis Factor Therapy in Fifteen Patients With AA Amyloidosis Secondary to InflammatoryArthritides

Amyloidoses

Anti-TNF treatment in secondary amyloidosis

Effective Anti-TNF-α Therapy Can Induce Rapid Resolution and Sustained Decrease of Gastroduodenal Mucosal Amyloid Deposits in Reactive Amyloidosis Associated with Rheumatoid Arthritis

Ankylosing spondylitis-related secondary amyloidosis responded well to etanercept: a report of three patients

AA Amyloidosis

Tumor Necrosis Factor-α Gene Polymorphisms in FMF and Their Association With Amyloidosis

Anti-TNF agents in familial Mediterranean fever: report of three cases and review of the literature

----------------------------------
vis-a-vis 5-Lipoxygenase

Involvement of 5-lipoxygenase activating protein in the amyloidotic phenotype of an Alzheimer’s disease mouse model

Adeno-associated virus-mediated brain delivery of 5-lipoxygenase modulates the AD-like phenotype of APP mice

5-Lipoxygenase gene disruption reduces amyloid-β pathology in a mouse model of Alzheimer’s disease

----------------------------------
Many more products and processes of the 5-LO pathway could also be listed...

Edited by wccaguy, 21 June 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

... Minoxidil, finasteride, PQQ, Dr. Proctor's formula, and an anti-fungal shampoo from eastern Europe--the first three worked to some limited degree to prevent loss but none ever produced much new hair. After using C60 two months ago for ten days, I've now stopped all of them with the exception of PQQ. So far I haven't seen any fall out and the new hair is around an inch or a little longer, which means it must have started around the time of the first dose.

I've restarted the minoxidil and finasteride after seeing a few hairs fall out that were suspiciously short, very much like the C60 hair. C60 may grow hair, it seems, but you may need something else to keep it.

[daouda]

To those currently taking c60/OO : are you taking special precautionnary measures to protect yourself from UV rays? Looks like sun exposure could lead to pretty much the opposite effect than the one expected. http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9839628
I wonder how important this is... Its summertime right now, so beach season etc.... Avoiding UVs would be pretty much impossible for me.
SHould one live like a vampire to benefit from the C60? The Baati lab rats were most probably NOT exposed to any kind of intense UV source.

Edited by daouda, 22 June 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[zorba990]

To those currently taking c60/OO : are you taking special precautionnary measures to protect yourself from UV rays? Looks like sun exposure could lead to pretty much the opposite effect than the one expected. http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9839628
I wonder how important this is... Its summertime right now, so beach season etc.... Avoiding UVs would be pretty much impossible for me.
SHould one live like a vampire to benefit from the C60? The Baati lab rats were most probably NOT exposed to any kind of intense UV source.

There is a fairly well known optical effect where C60 increases the high order harmonics of lasers(1). This concerns me greatly with respect to UV exposure, since it might possibly magnify the effects. I wouldn't be surprised if the rats in the study has close to zero UV exposure during the trial (and the fur gives some protection also).

(I realize this study uses lasers, and also C60 films but I don't think that is too unlike having ones skin and lower lipid layer populated with the C60 since that is where the light will strike)



(1)High-order harmonic generation from fullerene plasma
T. Ozaki, R. A. Ganeev, L. B. Elouga Bom and J. Abdul-Hadi
Institut national de la recherche scientifique - Centre Énergie, Matériaux et Télécommunications, 1650 Lionel-Boulet, Varennes, Québec J3X 1S2, Canada
ozaki@emt.inrs.ca
(see attachment graph)
Harmonic spectra obtained in the plasma plumes produced from (1) bulk carbon target, (2) C60 powder- rich epoxy, and (3) C60 film



However there is also this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2676811/

Which states:
Fullerenes are also used for cytoprotective action against UVA irradiation (Xiao et al 2006). The ultraviolet A radiation (320–400nm) generates reactive oxygen species, which have a biological effect on human skin cells, leading to cell damage or cell death. Once again the radical scavenging nature of water soluble fullerene derivative namely Radical Sponge® (C60 with poly(vinylpyrrolidone)) was utilised to protect human ore mammalian cells against oxidative stress, through catalytic dismutation of superoxide. The ability of Radical Sponge® to enter into depth of human skin epidermis due to its stability towards oxidative decomposition makes it more reliable than Vitamin C and enables the prevention of both UV skin-injuries and skin aging, without photosensitization and cytotoxicity.

But this just says it protects against the oxidation. Oxidation is one thing, but direct DNA damage by the UV rays is quite another. I don't see anything about C60 protecting against that, and if it somehow magnifies UVA or B into the UVC range or something more horrible then it could be quite a problem!


In looking at this I found an interesting study on UV protection:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15330502

Attached Files

•  buckyballs_optical_enhancement.pdf   254.38KB   6 downloads

Edited by zorba990, 22 June 2012 - 05:28 PM.

[stephen_b]

Perhaps taking astaxanthin might help?
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20219323
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22428137

[Metrodorus]

I think the only thing there is some concern about,is the eyes, if the fullerene bio-accumulates there - and it is a big if.

Anyway, anyone hoping for life extension would need to look after their facial skin - daily sunblock on the face and dark glasses, if you don't want to end up looking like a wrinkled prune when you hit 120, with lens implants and corneal replacements......

Studies of topical application to skin have shown no ROS producing effect, but on the contrary, a UV protective effect.

http://www.sciencedi...300483X09004880

http://butler.cc.tut...ls 2009 Yin.pdf

http://courses.engr....rials/mu 10.pdf

[zorba990]

I think the only thing there is some concern about,is the eyes, if the fullerene bio-accumulates there - and it is a big if.

Anyway, anyone hoping for life extension would need to look after their facial skin - daily sunblock on the face and dark glasses, if you don't want to end up looking like a wrinkled prune when you hit 120, with lens implants and corneal replacements......

Studies of topical application to skin have shown no ROS producing effect, but on the contrary, a UV protective effect.

http://www.sciencedi...300483X09004880

http://butler.cc.tut...ls 2009 Yin.pdf

http://courses.engr....rials/mu 10.pdf

ROS are one thing, but I'm more concerned about direct DNA damage...

http://pubs.rsc.org/...1/nr/c1nr10238a

The fullerene derivative and TiO₂nanoparticles caused DNA damage even under irradiation by A-band UV (λ_max = 365 nm) and showed more severe DNA damage than QDs under similar conditions.

[jg42122]

I have noticed an increased tan with no peeling/burning.

[Metrodorus]

In vivo studies show no mutagenic effects, such as this one:

http://www.tandfonli...641229909350279


What was the intensity of the light source used in that DNA damage study cited supra? I could find no reference in the abstract cited.

Edited by Metrodorus, 22 June 2012 - 06:22 PM.

[daouda]

Metrodorus, you have posted so many interesting studies of the many positive effects of fullerenes and their innocuity... You obviously have done your research in depth, and seem convinced about the likeliness of the positive greatly overwhelming the negative with this substance so far, and are definitetely convincing... So, are you already gulping it by the gallon and bathing in it daily ? Do you have any anecdotal reporting to share?

Edited by daouda, 22 June 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[zorba990]

In vivo studies show no mutagenic effects, such as this one:

http://www.tandfonli...641229909350279


What was the intensity of the light source used in that DNA damage study cited supra? I could find no reference in the abstract cited.

That looks good for UVA but would like to see similar with UVB. I didn't see the intensity.
AFAIK the tanning effect is a direct result of DNA damage. The small pTpT DNA pieces stimulate melanin production and can even be made to do so without UV light.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10537005

Of course in a healthy person this effect also upregulates P53 and other anti-cancer measures. However, if the C60 is acting as a kind of lens, then I'm concerned the DNA damage may go deeper than the skin. UVA can get to the dermis unassisted. If there are C60 molecules in the dermis then is the UVA amplified, reflected or transferred to a deeper layer? Only a deeper tissue biopsy and DNA analysis would tell.

I hope none of my conjecture is true. I'd love to start taking this, and I'm not generally a heliophobe (quite the opposite). However, the potential optical 'enhancement' effect of the C60 concerns me right now. It's one thing for UV to hit the skin where its done so for millions of years -- provoking an adaptive response that is built in and self repairing. It's another thing to have millions of potential optical enhancers buried beneath the skin when that UV hits.

[niner]

There is a fairly well known optical effect where C60 increases the high order harmonics of lasers(1). This concerns me greatly with respect to UV exposure, since it might possibly magnify the effects. I wouldn't be surprised if the rats in the study has close to zero UV exposure during the trial (and the fur gives some protection also).

(I realize this study uses lasers, and also C60 films but I don't think that is too unlike having ones skin and lower lipid layer populated with the C60 since that is where the light will strike)

(1)High-order harmonic generation from fullerene plasma
T. Ozaki, R. A. Ganeev, L. B. Elouga Bom and J. Abdul-Hadi
Institut national de la recherche scientifique - Centre Énergie, Matériaux et Télécommunications, 1650 Lionel-Boulet, Varennes, Québec J3X 1S2, Canada
ozaki@emt.inrs.ca
(see attachment graph)
Harmonic spectra obtained in the plasma plumes produced from (1) bulk carbon target, (2) C60 powder- rich epoxy, and (3) C60 film

This is happening at energy levels that are VASTLY higher than anything we would experience in nature, both in the energy of the individual photons and in the flux density. The physical orientation of fullerenes in a close-packed film are also entirely unlike the biological situation. In short, you don't need to worry about lensing effects or anything along those lines. The physical state and chemical substitution pattern of the C60 is critically important to its properties.

[JohnD60]

To those currently taking c60/OO : are you taking special precautionnary measures to protect yourself from UV rays?

No more than before

[Turnbuckle]

We have previously found that fullerol is both cytotoxic and phototoxic to human lens epithelial cells and that the endogenous antioxidant lutein blocked some of this phototoxicity. In the present study we have found that fullerol induces cytotoxic and phototoxic damage to human retinal pigment epithelial cells.

Source: Phototoxicity and cytotoxicity of fullerol in human retinal pigment epithelial cells.

[Metrodorus]

Hi Turnbuckle - I quoted that study about retinal cells some time ago supra - I think we have had the photo-toxicity discussion earlier in the thread - and I advised wearing dark glasses and sunblock, just in case.

As I said, anyone expecting or aiming for an extended lifespan should wear dark glasses as a matter of course, to prevent ongoing damage to the lens and retina.

It is a big question as to whether orally ingested fullerene will bio-accumulate in the lens or ocular tissue - but better safe than sorry.
Fullerol, anyway, isn't the same molecule as the fullerenes we are discussing here in this thread ( either pristine dissolved fullerene or an olive-oil fullerene adduct,or a mixture of the above)

I wear sunblock as a matter of course on my face anyway, and have done so, day in day out for the last 20 years (I am now 46). This has successfully reduced photo-ageing to my face. I am not overly concerned about fullerene adding to photo damage of the skin - indeed, it may have photo-protective effects.

[Metrodorus]

Hi daouda - I would not say I have done my research in depth - I am just naturally cautious. I have a bioscience degree. I enjoy reading the various abstracts and articles on fullerene, trying to piece together something from the published data that made some kind of sense to me, and to do a risk assessment to satisfy my own criteria.

[niner]

Regarding phototoxicity, here is the abstract that Turnbuckle and Metrodorus are talking about:

Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2010 Jan 1;242(1):79-90. Epub 2009 Oct 2.
Phototoxicity and cytotoxicity of fullerol in human retinal pigment epithelial cells.
Wielgus AR, Zhao B, Chignell CF, Hu DN, Roberts JE.

Laboratory of Pharmacology, National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA.

The water-soluble nanoparticle hydroxylated fullerene [fullerol, nano-C60(OH)(22-26)] has several clinical applications including use as a drug carrier to bypass the blood ocular barriers. We have previously found that fullerol is both cytotoxic and phototoxic to human lens epithelial cells (HLE B-3) and that the endogenous antioxidant lutein blocked some of this phototoxicity. In the present study we have found that fullerol induces cytotoxic and phototoxic damage to human retinal pigment epithelial cells. Accumulation of nano-C60(OH)(22-26) in the cells was confirmed spectrophotometrically at 405 nm, and cell viability, cell metabolism and membrane permeability were estimated using trypan blue, MTS and LDH assays, respectively. Fullerol was cytotoxic toward hRPE cells maintained in the dark at concentrations higher than 10 microM. Exposure to an 8.5 J x cm(-2) dose of visible light in the presence of >5 microM fullerol induced TBARS formation and early apoptosis, indicating phototoxic damage in the form of lipid peroxidation. Pretreatment with 10 and 20 microM lutein offered some protection against fullerol photodamage. Using time resolved photophysical techniques, we have now confirmed that fullerol produces singlet oxygen with a quantum yield of Phi=0.05 in D2O and with a range of 0.002-0.139 in various solvents. As our previous studies have shown that fullerol also produces superoxide in the presence of light, retinal phototoxic damage may occur through both type I (free radical) and type II (singlet oxygen) mechanisms. In conclusion, ocular exposure to fullerol, particularly in the presence of sunlight, may lead to retinal damage.

PMID: 19800903

Fullerol is really different than the compounds we are talking about. Fullerol is water soluble, and will end up in aqueous compartments like the eye. The C60-fatty acid conjugate, or pristine C60, for that matter, are lipid soluble, and they end up in membranes. That's the first thing to consider. The second thing to consider is that this is an in vitro experiment performed at concentrations of 5-10 uM. While concentrations like this are easy to hit in a petri dish, they are not easy to achieve in vivo. A third thing to consider is the light flux. 8.5J/cm**2 is a lot of light; I don't know exactly what the normal flux at the retina is, but I'm pretty sure it's a hell of a lot less than this. Finally, the damage mode in the petri dish is lipid peroxidation, which is exactly what a lipid-bound C60 would be expected to prevent.

I don't think there is any risk to the eyes from C60/OO.

[Metrodorus]

I don't think there is any risk to the eyes from C60/OO.

Hi Niner - I pretty much agree with you on this - but still would advise wearing dark glasses - irrespective of the fullerene bioaccumulation and/or potential for damage if it does accumulate in eye tissue, as we cannot be sure, and it is a sensible intervention anyway. Eyes are one organ not worth taking a chance with, I reckon.

[niner]

I don't think there is any risk to the eyes from C60/OO.

Hi Niner - I pretty much agree with you on this - but still would advise wearing dark glasses - irrespective of the fullerene bioaccumulation and/or potential for damage if it does accumulate in eye tissue, as we cannot be sure, and it is a sensible intervention anyway. Eyes are one organ not worth taking a chance with, I reckon.

It's a good idea to protect yourself from UV even if you don't use fullerenes. Like you, I've been using sunscreen daily for years, and since I wear glasses all the time anyway it's easy to have a UV coating. I don't use sunglasses, because it's too much trouble/expense to have two pairs of prescription lenses. Photo-active lenses are a possibility, but I don't really want to deal with the slow response time and expense.

[Mind]

The main point about the UV discussion that people should take away (IMO) is that if there are negative side effects from C60 supplementation you will be stuck with them. If C60 stays/recycles within your cell membranes and you are suffering from a negative side effect, how do you clear it out. Just something to think about. That is the risk you take when there are no large scale double blind in-vivo human studies to reference in regards to C60. Remember that the sample size from the rat study was 6. This leaves a lot of room for error.

[maxwatt]

Update on 14-year old wheaten terrier (canine) 10 days on 4 mg/day C60 in olive oil.
She is still blind, partly deaf, energy level slightly greater but still not a puppy, prefers sleeping to walks. Arthritis looks painful. Possibly less aggressive to other dogs. She used to bark and growl at other dogs who came near, now she ignores them unless they actually touch her.

If she lives longer in her current state than she would have without fullerene supplementation, it would be no blessing. But I don't know her opinion.

But I can say thee is no immediate toxicity, and she does walk faster and more often than previously. Which is still not very much.

[Metrodorus]

I don't believe this study on fullerene and sexual function has been quoted here before (2011)

It relates to sexual function with fullerene supplementation in diabetic-induced rats.

The effect reported is positive.

http://www.sciencedi...300483X10006554

[Allen Walters]

After 2 weeks on the mixer and it's very dark red. Funny thing is, when I put it in the test tubes it's an amber color. No red at all.

[HighDesertWizard]

I believe there are now 3 competing Explanations of the Baati study life span result. And we need more Explanations, not less...

A heads up... I believe Figure 2 of the Baati study is an important piece of evidence that any Explanation claiming to be a Complete Explanation must Explain. I believe that unless an Explanation addresses the evidence in that Figure, it cannot be considered The Complete Explanation, and is, hence, Falsified.

I intend to press this argument soon and I want to provide an early heads up about this intention...

--------------------------

Well, frick, my Explanation of Post #1097 has now been knocked out in Round 1 of the Explanation Game. It has now been Falsified and is out of the Game. (Details about the precise knockout blow posted soon.)

Still, I think some components of that Round 1 Explanation are sound. I like some of them. So, I'm going to salvage what I can.

Can the other two Round 1 Explanation Contender Versions survive the Figure 2 Evidence Test? Can they be tweaked, here and there, to contend in Round 2 to Explain the Figure 2 evidence? Or are they out of the Game entirely?

-------------------
* From this point forward, I'm going to call Explanations I evolve the "JAC Explanations," along with version numbers. So, JAC Explanation 1.0 has now been Falsified. Again, I'll post the excruciating knockout blow details soon. (Yes, and I get this will make it easy later to say... "... all the Explanations wccaguy came up with turned out to be jac... )

Edited by wccaguy, 24 June 2012 - 03:24 AM.

[Metrodorus]

Actually wcca guy,
We are still very much at the data gathering stage. There simply isn't enough data to be dreaming up methods of action that are not clear from what little data we have...... It is * a waste of time* to extrapolate beyond the data, given that there is so little of it.

How many studies have been carried out with fullerene dissolved in oil? Three? Four or five if you include the squalane studies on cosmetics.

Of the cited mammal studies, two were only oil-fullerene suspensions, and one of these used corn oil. Only one (1) study has used dissolved fullerene in olive oil, either in vivo or in vitro.

The published studies are very tentative in their posited modes of action - for good reason - apart from free radical scavenging, which is, I think, the only thing universally agreed on in every study I have read where the fullerene adduct being tested isn't deleterious.

[niner]

I don't believe this study on fullerene and sexual function has been quoted here before (2011)

It relates to sexual function with fullerene supplementation in diabetic-induced rats.

The effect reported is positive.

http://www.sciencedi...300483X10006554

Interesting paper. The first thing that I was struck with was the dose; 4 MICROGRAMS/kg! This is 430 times less than Baati's rats got. So maybe you don't need much to see an effect. They used "hydrated" C60. Without seeing the full text, I'm not sure what this is; it might be pristine C60 that was agitated in water for a long time (weeks); it eventually goes into solution. I'm not sure of the structure, but I've read that fullerenes will spontaneously hydroxylate in water, given enough time. OTOH, they might be something else...

At any rate, this is another suggestion that people with significant health problems, like diabetes, may benefit from C60.

Another tidbit from the abstract:

Furthermore, C₆₀HyFn treatment in diabetic and nondiabetic rats resulted in considerable elevations of some important polyunsaturated fatty acids.

What do you suppose these are?