3585 replies to this topic

[Turnbuckle]

I'm assuming I can purchase the stirrer and pump filter online.

Btw, thanks Niner

No problem; glad to help.

Yeah, it's all online. Several people have had one kind of stirrer burn out on them. I think it was a Hana(?) or something like that, but don't quote me on it. Since olive oil is pretty viscous, it needs to be a robust stirrer. Someone here might know a brand that works.

I bought the Hanna 190M-1 and it's worked fine, at least over a half dozen batches. At Amazon, a two-star rating by a person at a lab says that they only last for six months to two years, whereas a previous brand laster several times longer. Presumably a lab uses them a lot more than we ever will, so even the the six month number should translate to years for home C60 mixing.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 24 September 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I think I will probably just start to draw a few cc off the top and begin taking it when the color looks good, but I'll keep on shaking it periodically until I can't see any more particles.

If you shine a green laser pointer through it, you'll see the speckles of particles otherwise too small to see. Once you filter it at .22 micron, those speckles disappear.

[kenj]

Kenj, I'm glad you asked. The two-page thread that describes this is here: Equipment- mixing, centrifuging and filtering - started 01 August 2012 - 10-07 AM.

I've been thinking that there should be a do-it-yourself cookbook summary. As soon as I can (hopefully within the next hour or two), I'll try to provide this, and will post it on the above-linked thread.

Cool, thanks. I read the thread ^^^ and it seems shaking the olive oil bottle with c60 is the low tech/cost method, which some here have done. A gram of c60 in 1.5L high quality olive oil for a month seems good, no?

[hav]

I'm assuming I can purchase the stirrer and pump filter online.

Btw, thanks Niner

No problem; glad to help.

Yeah, it's all online. Several people have had one kind of stirrer burn out on them. I think it was a Hana(?) or something like that, but don't quote me on it. Since olive oil is pretty viscous, it needs to be a robust stirrer. Someone here might know a brand that works.

I bought the Hanna 190M-1 and it's worked fine, at least over a half dozen batches. At Amazon, a two-star rating by a person at a lab says that they only last for six months to two years, whereas a previous brand laster several times longer. Presumably a lab uses them a lot more than we ever will, so even the the six month number should translate to years for home C60 mixing.

My Hanna 190M-1 burned out after 3 months of back to back batches of 100 ml. Replaced it with a heavier duty Hanna 301N which only made it 2 weeks with a 1L batch. Been going about six weeks now with a Benchmark H4000S recommended earlier in this thread with back to back 1L batches and its been rock solid so far.

Speaking of rocks, a tumbler might work. As long as the sides are not too smooth. Their motors are usually designed to go months at a time.

Howard

[niner]

Not necessarily different. You probably get the same thing faster. Reaction rates usually increase exponentially with temperature, and this is a slow reaction at room temp. I've been running it at room temp for a week now, and heating is starting to look attractive. I'll grant that you could get a new product showing up at an increased temp. Not guaranteed, but I can't rule it out. Olive oil is pretty heat stable at 75; we cook with it at temperatures a lot higher than that, and then eat it.

I hope you're right about that. Because the paper silvioster cites suggests that at key temperatures, the internal bonds holding c60 together change. Further suggesting that dissolving c60 below one of the break points will yield different adducts than when the c60 is dissolved above the break point. Three key temperature breakpoints are described: 260, 280, and 310 degrees K. Although silvioster cautions about the 280K breakpoint when dissolving c60 in olive oil, the other breakpoint at 310K may be more significant. This quote from the paper mentions it:

The special feature of examined process is the fact that the temperatures of two transformations in the molecule C60, staying in solution, are near to the temperature of medium of habitation of living and vegetable world. The first exists at the temperature near to the temperature of human body (310 K), and the second – near the temperature of 0oC (273 K), which is the threshold of existence of the most representatives of living and vegetable world.

This suggests to me that c60 adducts may not be as stable as we've presumed. The c60 may dissociate from an adduct and form new ones when a breakpoint is crossed. And some humans may experience differing effects as their body temperatures move above and below the 310K breakpoint at any given time. Wistar rats may not ever see this effect. This paper indicates their body temperature is typically a few degrees higher than humans. except when they've been fasting around 2.5 days (see figure 2):

Once the adduct is formed, it would take some fairly extreme chemistry to break those carbon-carbon bonds, so I doubt that there will be a rearrangement. The big question is do these electronic transitions affect the reactivity of the C60? They're probably increasing the polarity or polarizability of the molecule, as reflected in the apparently higher crystal lattice energy at higher temperatures, so it's not out of the question that they would be more reactive at higher temperatures. That's the normal trend for chemical reaction rates in general. If Wistar rats are normally a little hotter than humans, and the rats were ok, then we should be in good shape. Those transition temperatures are uncannily close to a couple important numbers for us, but I think that's probably just a coincidence.

[YodaTW]

If you shine a green laser pointer through it, you'll see the speckles of particles otherwise too small to see. Once you filter it at .22 micron, those speckles disappear.

Very interesting technique Turnbuckle…I tried this with my green 50mw laser and saw a few particles still in the solution…very few. It was hard to get just one in the beam.

[Andey]

The results on rat may be very different on those on humans.
What do you think will be the maximum (but still achievable) effect of c60 ? And what do you think about the most probable result ?

As reader I have read a lot of your post on this forum and very appreciate your opinion on this subject )
Also everybody's thoughts and expectations are welcomed )

P.S. Sorry if its a wrong thread for such question )

[niner]

The results on rat may be very different on those on humans.
What do you think will be the maximum (but still achievable) effect of c60 ? And what do you think about the most probable result ?

This is the sixty four thousand dollar question, as they say in the US. I think that it's safe to say that humans will not see a 90% life extension like the rats did. Long lived species like naked mole rats, which are similar in many ways to rats, but live ten times longer, have better endogenous antioxidant protection than rats do. So do we. Since our antioxidant defenses are already pretty good, we will not have as much to gain by improving them. Nevertheless, C60-oo is no ordinary antioxidant. When people first became aware that a lot of aging damage involved free radicals, a craze developed around antioxidants. The problem was, when antioxidants were examined in clinical trials, they didn't look that great. I think that was because the antioxidants we had just weren't the right ones. They had poor pharmacokinetics, tended to not occupy the locations in the body where the free radicals were being generated, and were chemically unstable. Quite a while ago, a Russian scientist by the name of Skulachev designed a molecule that would be attracted to the mitochondrial membrane, and contained a plastoquinone antioxidant group. This was a brilliant concept, and it did show some moderately good results in vivo. When Baati and coworkers dissolved C60 in olive oil, they inadvertently created a molecule that was very much like Skulachev's but with a much better antioxidant. C60 has been called a "free radical sponge" because of the way that it soaks up free radicals, holding them until they can be neutralized. It has been shown to mimic the actions of superoxide dismutase, and the C60-oo adduct has been shown to localize in membranes, particularly the mitochondrial fraction.

I think that with C60-oo, we will finally see the promise of "antioxidants", which many of us had essentially given up on. As to how many years it might add to human lifespans, I could only speculate. There are other processes involved in aging, like systemic amyloidosis, that will probably cap the typical lifespan at far less than the 150 years that a direct extrapolation from the rats would suggest. Based on what we've seen in humans so far, C60-oo is looking like a wonder drug for people with inflammatory problems, problems with oxygenation, and mitochondrial dysfunction. It could have a very important role in a lot of disease states- for example, if I was suffering from congestive heart failure, I would take C60-oo in a heartbeat, assuming I still had one. There are reasons to believe it would be helpful in MS, CFS, fibromyalgia, and asthma, and autoimmune disorders in general. We have two members of our community who are taking it for ALS, and one with MS. Oxidative stress is involved in telomere attrition, as well as a number of other problems. Chronic inflammation also leads to a great deal of damage. By acting on these fronts, it's hard to imagine that C60-oo would not provide a significant life extension to humans, but the magnitude of it is anyone's guess.

[Andey]

Thank you for such complete answer )
You give me a lot to think about. And its a pleasure to participate in it with you and community )

As I understand antioxydation is one of the directions for decrease time influence and in theory other supllements (E,C vitamins, Omega 3 and ALA) are much less competitive in it.
May be we need to decrease dosage for such supplements ?

Are there other well promising supplements/protocols that can hit other directions like C60 for oxydation ? Maybe briefly - just like directions to explore )
For example I've started recently to fast one day a week - is it a good choice ? (I feel myself a bit energised. Not shure if it placebo effect or c60 or IF, but my body tells me thanks )

Edited by Andey, 27 September 2012 - 02:16 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

The results on rat may be very different on those on humans.
What do you think will be the maximum (but still achievable) effect of c60 ? And what do you think about the most probable result ?

The effect on rats and humans will certainly be different. Rats have enough telomere repeats on their nDNA to last 4 lifetimes. Humans are pushing the limits of both nDNA and mtDNA and C60 has a presence in the mitochondria but not in the nucleus. So the effect on humans will be considerably less from C60 alone since it addresses only mtDNA aging.

As for its mode of action, I don't think the antioxidant theory is correct, for if it were, other antioxidants would also show increases in lifespan. I've posted my own theory on my profile page--scroll down to 3. C60 theory.

[Andey]

The results on rat may be very different on those on humans.
What do you think will be the maximum (but still achievable) effect of c60 ? And what do you think about the most probable result ?

The effect on rats and humans will certainly be different. Rats have enough telomere repeats on their nDNA to last 4 lifetimes. Humans are pushing the limits of both nDNA and mtDNA and C60 has a presence in the mitochondria but not in the nucleus. So the effect on humans will be considerably less from C60 alone since it addresses only mtDNA aging.

As for its mode of action, I don't think the antioxidant theory is correct, for if it were, other antioxidants would also show increases in lifespan. I've posted my own theory on my profile page--scroll down to 3. C60 theory.

Thanks )
I ve read your theory and its an interesting approach - its too scientific for my complete understanding but because it suggest more complex c60 action its looks less probable than just oxygenation (Okcham razor rule). But who knows ? And your pattern with rest period looks good for both theories ) Also it repeats the original Baati experiment protocol.
It looks like it can be checked somehow because of more C60 addictivity of the right mitos, so with some radioactive C60 it may be detectable difference.


P.S. All your regimen in profile looks very interesting - I will read it mindfully. )

Edited by Andey, 27 September 2012 - 07:00 PM.

[HHM]

It seems to be consensus that c60 forms some kind of adduct in evo that is responsible for the reported effect and also for the deep red color. Can anyone explain the rationale for this theory? We know that c60/toluene solution appear purple. Couldn't the deep red/brownish color just be the result of c60/Evo solution

[Turnbuckle]

Okcham razor rule

When it comes to epigenetics, Occam's Razor is a poor guide.

[niner]

It seems to be consensus that c60 forms some kind of adduct in evo that is responsible for the reported effect and also for the deep red color. Can anyone explain the rationale for this theory? We know that c60/toluene solution appear purple. Couldn't the deep red/brownish color just be the result of c60/Evo solution

Pristine C60 is purple in solution because it absorbs light of such a frequency that we see a purple color. If you put a toluene solution of C60 in a spectrophotometer, you will see a particular peak in the spectrum. If you then add a compound that reacts with C60, such as various alkenes, you will see the purple peak start to have a lower intensity, while a new peak, corresponding to a red color, begins to grow in intensity. It is possible for C60 to dissolve in olive oil, and as long as it doesn't react with the oil, you will get the purple color. It's not very intense, because the solubility of unreacted C60 in olive oil is quite low. The adduct is much more soluble, so the C60 is gradually used up until you reach the limit of solubility of the adduct. That's approximately 0.9 mg/ml, or 0.9g/L, though most people use it at slightly lower concentration.

[Turnbuckle]

It seems to be consensus that c60 forms some kind of adduct in evo that is responsible for the reported effect and also for the deep red color. Can anyone explain the rationale for this theory? We know that c60/toluene solution appear purple. Couldn't the deep red/brownish color just be the result of c60/Evo solution

Pristine C60 is purple in solution because it absorbs light of such a frequency that we see a purple color. If you put a toluene solution of C60 in a spectrophotometer, you will see a particular peak in the spectrum. If you then add a compound that reacts with C60, such as various alkenes, you will see the purple peak start to have a lower intensity, while a new peak, corresponding to a red color, begins to grow in intensity. It is possible for C60 to dissolve in olive oil, and as long as it doesn't react with the oil, you will get the purple color. It's not very intense, because the solubility of unreacted C60 in olive oil is quite low. The adduct is much more soluble, so the C60 is gradually used up until you reach the limit of solubility of the adduct. That's approximately 0.9 mg/ml, or 0.9g/L, though most people use it at slightly lower concentration.

When I mixed my first batches without using a deaerated EVOO and using hand shaking (which put even more oxygen into the oil), the solution was either brown to begin with or turned brown with time. By using a good organic oil, magnetic stirring, and keeping the prepared solution in the refrigerator or freezer, the solution (once thawed) maintains its magenta color.

[niner]

When I mixed my first batches without using a deaerated EVOO and using hand shaking (which put even more oxygen into the oil), the solution was either brown to begin with or turned brown with time. By using a good organic oil, magnetic stirring, and keeping the prepared solution in the refrigerator or freezer, the solution (once thawed) maintains its magenta color.

Metrodorus used the shake method, and as I recall, kept his oil in a warm cupboard. I don't know how careful he was regarding oxygen, but the final product had a very deep red/magenta color. A lot of people note the brown or whiskey color, which might have something to do with the original color of the oil. The batch I'm working on at the moment started with a dark green oil, so I'm expecting it to look pretty brown at the end. Time will tell. To make the waiting less onerous and also to give me something to compare to, I just ordered one of Carbon's 30ml bottles.

[sapentia]

When I mixed my first batches without using a deaerated EVOO and using hand shaking (which put even more oxygen into the oil), the solution was either brown to begin with or turned brown with time. By using a good organic oil, magnetic stirring, and keeping the prepared solution in the refrigerator or freezer, the solution (once thawed) maintains its magenta color.

Metrodorus used the shake method, and as I recall, kept his oil in a warm cupboard. I don't know how careful he was regarding oxygen, but the final product had a very deep red/magenta color. A lot of people note the brown or whiskey color, which might have something to do with the original color of the oil. The batch I'm working on at the moment started with a dark green oil, so I'm expecting it to look pretty brown at the end. Time will tell. To make the waiting less onerous and also to give me something to compare to, I just ordered one of Carbon's 30ml bottles.

I hand mixed mine, 500 mL, and it turned the characteristic purplish-red color though it started out as whiskey colored. I have kept it at room temperature and have noticed no change in color or taste over the past 2-3 weeks of usage.

I will also mention that my mother finished her radiation therapy for breast cancer yesterday. I am beginning her on 5 mL/day of homebrew C60-OO (~0.8mg/mL) and will report any noteworthy effects. She will also be taking 20mg PQQ and 300mg ubiquinol per day along with the remainder of her supplementation regimen.

[stephen_b]

I had rashes with that much ubiquinol (though of course everyone is different). For me, it was better taken with food.

[pleb]

Logic posted an article from Sussex University which i had forwarded to him in the make your own C60 section which indicated that during filtering the slightly purple mix was C60 with C70 and purer C60 appears as a dark red,

[Turnbuckle]

More reason not to use d-limonene as a solvent. After 2+ weeks in the freezer the solution has accumulated about a quarter inch of a reddish sediment. This has a honey-like viscosity while the bulk liquid remains very fluid. Seems the solution slowly polymerizes, even at low temperatures.

Logic posted an article from Sussex University which i had forwarded to him in the make your own C60 section which indicated that during filtering the slightly purple mix was C60 with C70 and purer C60 appears as a dark red,

I've found the exact opposite.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 02 October 2012 - 02:59 PM.

[sapentia]

More reason not to use d-limonene as a solvent. After 2+ weeks in the freezer the solution has accumulated about a quarter inch of a reddish sediment. This has a honey-like viscosity while the bulk liquid remains very fluid. Seems the solution slowly polymerizes, even at low temperatures.

I've found the exact opposite.

Does this suggest that taking d-limonene in proximity to taking a dose of C60-OO could have undesirable effects in vivo? Over the past few weeks I have intermittently taken 1,000mg doses of d-limonene and a couple of those times it was in the same period I took my C60.

[Turnbuckle]

More reason not to use d-limonene as a solvent. After 2+ weeks in the freezer the solution has accumulated about a quarter inch of a reddish sediment. This has a honey-like viscosity while the bulk liquid remains very fluid. Seems the solution slowly polymerizes, even at low temperatures.

I've found the exact opposite.

Does this suggest that taking d-limonene in proximity to taking a dose of C60-OO could have undesirable effects in vivo? Over the past few weeks I have intermittently taken 1,000mg doses of d-limonene and a couple of those times it was in the same period I took my C60.

No, I wouldn't think it would be a problem. However, I've tried C60 and CoQ10 dissolved in d-limonene (separately), and felt tired after each.

[NewtonPulsifer]

I've been taking about 12mg per day for the past 6 days. I can do 35 pushups without feeling the "burn" starting vs. 25 before. That's a 40% increase. Also, normally I would have had soreness in my wing muscles for 2 days after that, but I had none at all. Only did one set so don't know how many I could pull off in one day.

I'm basically sedentary e.g. no exercise with a computer job. Not in shape but not overweight. 36 yo, 5'7" 155lbs.

Mood and tolerance for stress seems much improved. I don't "feel" different at all otherwise.

My wife (also taking it same dosage) was in physical therapy for her lower back and left knee (sciatica). It's basically vastly improved. One of her exercises from her physical therapist she was doing 3 sets of 12, she did 4 sets of 20 with no problem. No soreness the next day. She sees no need to have any more physical therapy appointments.

Re: sex drive. I've seen no increase or decrease, but was already on the "horny toad" side of things anyway.

Just wanted to update. My wife and I haven't taken any for about 2 months.

Our regime was about 12mg per day for 2 weeks, then 12mg for 2 days out of the week (on Sat & Sun) for 4 weeks, then discontinued.

The number of pushups I can do now before the "burn" starts is 30, down from 35. I'll update with a post if there's any wing muscle soreness tomorrow - if I don't post assume there isn't any. My wife still hasn't felt the need to have any physical therapy appointments since she first took it.

This stuff seems to have a pretty long time frame of positive results.

[Turnbuckle]

More reason not to use d-limonene as a solvent. After 2+ weeks in the freezer the solution has accumulated about a quarter inch of a reddish sediment. This has a honey-like viscosity while the bulk liquid remains very fluid. Seems the solution slowly polymerizes, even at low temperatures.

I take back what I said about polymerization. The honey-like material at the bottom was apparently the Autofil container dissolving in the d-limonene. C60 likely had nothing to do with it. (I discovered this when it suddenly leaked out through a dime-sized hole.)

[YodaTW]

Hey guys, been taking 1.5mg a day, lowered from 2mg to make it last longer for one and a half months.
I have a question, if the C60 in EVOO was used as a lotion on the skin, would any of the C60 be able to penetrate into our body? If so how much?

[niner]

Hey guys, been taking 1.5mg a day, lowered from 2mg to make it last longer for one and a half months.
I have a question, if the C60 in EVOO was used as a lotion on the skin, would any of the C60 be able to penetrate into our body? If so how much?

I think there is a good chance that you would get some penetration into the upper layers of the skin at the very least. It might be beneficial for certain skin problems. If the goal is to get systemic exposure, I would just take it orally, since the bioavailability seems to be very good.

The minimum daily dose is probably even less than 1.5mg, based on what I've seen reported here. Are you seeing any effects from it so far?

[YodaTW]

I have had no effects as of yet, but thats also a good sign. I got mine from Sarah V.

I read something on Sarah Vaughter's site (where I got my C60 EVOO) and she said that here first batch of C60 fullerene was purchased from a Russian company called HTICO which instead sent her a product that was only 12.5 % C60 and the rest was undissolved carbon compounds.

It looks like people who make it themselves should avoid the company HTICO and ILIP which share the same address. However SES seems to be high quality C60 product. I also am looking into making it since its more economical…

Can someone here make a video and post it to Youtube of the total process of making C60 in EVOO mixing, filtering and so on, so I and others can try to make our own…it looks like I can save a lot of money if I did. One gram of C60 would make about 1000 ml of the product for me to use.

[niner]

I read something on Sarah Vaughter's site (where I got my C60 EVOO) and she said that here first batch of C60 fullerene was purchased from a Russian company called HTICO which instead sent her a product that was only 12.5 % C60 and the rest was undissolved carbon compounds.

That wasn't her first batch. The first batch came from SES. This was a new less expensive supplier that she was evaluating, and they tried to scam her. Hah! If you go to the link, you'll see what happens when you try to scam Sarah.

Can someone here make a video and post it to Youtube of the total process of making C60 in EVOO mixing, filtering and so on, so I and others can try to make our own…it looks like I can save a lot of money if I did. One gram of C60 would make about 1000 ml of the product for me to use.

I'm not going to make a video, but here's what I'm doing: Get a gram of high quality C60 from SES, and 750ml good olive oil. Pour half the C60 in the oil. Shake it every day for a month, occasionally removing the stopper to let it get oxygen. Storing it somewhere warm will speed the procedure. If you have a clean mortar and pestle, grinding the C60 first will also speed the procedure. When the oil has taken on a deep reddish color, it's ready. I don't see a need to filter it; this tox study finds aggregated C60 in oil to be harmless to animals, even in huge quantities. If you do want to filter it, most people use a 0.22 micron filter and hand vacuum pump. I don't think you can gravity filter it unless you use a larger pore size.

[clairvoyant]

I don't think fullerene acts primarily through mitoneogenesis, if at all.

Rather,akin to methylene blue, I suspect it acts directly on the electron transport chain within the mitochondria, possibly reducing / eliminating electron transport bottlenecks that occur along the chain.

Methylene blue acts on complex 4.

Speaking of methylene blue, I tried 1 mg in water this morning--along with 10 mg C60 in oil--to see if there was any synergy for running. Nope. Could be a coincidence, but I had all sorts of ankle and calf and thigh pains that discouraged me from running at all.

Turnbuckle, please don't take any other drugs than C60 because we could not understand what the changes of your health are caused by. If you get ill or die no one will dare touch C60 until at least the study is replicated. All eyes are on you now.

[niner]

All eyes are on you now.

Um, what about the other fifty or so people who are reporting their C60 results here?