3585 replies to this topic

[anagram]

"That's too fast for anything but a placebo response."

I have felt similar effects from high grade c60-oo + astaxanthin, the effect has been reproducible for me.

"I guess by "only olive oil will generate life extension" you mean that olive oil by itself showed some life extension in Baati. Yes, the olive oil phenolics are the likely active agent in that case, but there is no evidence that they are necessary for the c60-oo effect. You should get the same effect from c60 with any high-oleic oil. How do you know that the astaxanthin wasn't responsible for the change in the taste of the oil?"

Yah, Ok, everything I said is basically just a theory, but the again what evidence do we have to go on anything really?

-"Purple is actually a normal color for a high concentration of the aduct. The word "precipitate" means that there's a solid that forms from a solution reaction. It sounds to me like there was nothing wrong with this batch."

ok Thank God because it worried me, brown to purple, I was thinking something had gone awfully wrong.

"That paper doesn't say anything about H2O2 decreasing the expression of ferritin. It says TEMPOL reduces ferritin expression, but doesn't give a mechanism for that. Again, there's no evidence for harm from a large dose of c60-oo. The results from Baati suggest just the opposite. "

TEMPOL and c60 have similar medical benefits, both are SOD mimetics, and both produce massive quantities of H2O2 in vivo and protect against H2O2 induced damage(fenton reaction. After such a massive increase in H2O2 wouldn't you think that our biology would have made our cells capable of regulating the fenton reaction, a decrease in ferritin would prevent a massive increase in hydroxyl radicals and possibly our endogenous SOD enzymes, I remember reading a study about exactly this, but I couldn't find it. C60 is just the version of TEMPOL that isn't degraded in 3 minutes in vivo.

I have been doing Iron chelation for the past 3 weeks so that when I get more c60, I feel I can raise my dosage to 7mg, 5 weeks ago 5mg felt enormously strange, which is why I feel I have to much iron.

[petitemort]

I read all this with the greatest interest and thank you Anagram for your answer.

I'm looking for what poeple here think about monoatomic gold and related products; I know it is not the topic to talk about that but may be some one could redirect me with a link cause I can't find any conversation about it on the forum. May be do to the fact that no scientific study can be found on the subject so if anyone about a study or a conversation not initiated buy obscur sorcers or ormus suppliers it would be great.

[Turnbuckle]

I have been doing Iron chelation for the past 3 weeks so that when I get more c60, I feel I can raise my dosage to 7mg, 5 weeks ago 5mg felt enormously strange, which is why I feel I have to much iron.

Maybe you have too much C60?

[petitemort]

Ok, I was ashamed to talk about that but I would like to get the opinion of someone who 's not to bad in science and could speculate on the becoming of fullerenes when they are rejected through urine.

For many years now I have been drinking my urine, holding semen (it does not mean no orgasm) and doing all kind of strange yogas.physical and mental.

Now that I have been taking C60-oo for more than a month i haven't stopp drinking morning urin.

Like fullerenes are not water soluble could it be a bad idea?

I don't feel bad at all, to the contrary,and don't drink it all over the day only morning time and after sport

Waitting for your answers

[hav]

Ok, I was ashamed to talk about that but I would like to get the opinion of someone who 's not to bad in science and could speculate on the becoming of fullerenes when they are rejected through urine.
...

I don't think C60/oo adducts get excreted through urine at all. I think the only c60 that might be in there is any undissolved c60 that might have been in suspension in the olive oil. If your source is one of the companies selling c60/oo that mixes and filters its product, there should be little to no c60 in suspension to excrete.

c60 has very low solubility in water. There is a thread on hydrated c60 obtained via sonication. Not sure if passage of undissolved c60 through the body could result in any of it forming a hydrated fullerine. My guess is not.

Howard

[petitemort]

Nice! good news thanks for your analyse Howard ;-)

[niner]

Yah, Ok, everything I said is basically just a theory, but the again what evidence do we have to go on anything really?

This is not a good way to get people to take your posts seriously.

TEMPOL and c60 have similar medical benefits, both are SOD mimetics, and both produce massive quantities of H2O2 in vivo and protect against H2O2 induced damage(fenton reaction. After such a massive increase in H2O2 wouldn't you think that our biology would have made our cells capable of regulating the fenton reaction, a decrease in ferritin would prevent a massive increase in hydroxyl radicals and possibly our endogenous SOD enzymes, I remember reading a study about exactly this, but I couldn't find it. C60 is just the version of TEMPOL that isn't degraded in 3 minutes in vivo.

Excuse me, but this is nonsense. C60 doesn't produce "massive quantities" of H2O2, and I don't think TEMPOL does either. As (putative) SOD mimetics, they inactivate superoxide anion before it can do harm. They create a small amount of H2O2 in this process, but that is a much safer compound than superoxide, and it will be handled by catalase. A decrease in ferritin would result in an increase in unliganded iron, which would result in an increase in Fenton chemistry.

[anagram]

Yah, Ok, everything I said is basically just a theory, but the again what evidence do we have to go on anything really?

This is not a good way to get people to take your posts seriously.

TEMPOL and c60 have similar medical benefits, both are SOD mimetics, and both produce massive quantities of H2O2 in vivo and protect against H2O2 induced damage(fenton reaction. After such a massive increase in H2O2 wouldn't you think that our biology would have made our cells capable of regulating the fenton reaction, a decrease in ferritin would prevent a massive increase in hydroxyl radicals and possibly our endogenous SOD enzymes, I remember reading a study about exactly this, but I couldn't find it. C60 is just the version of TEMPOL that isn't degraded in 3 minutes in vivo.

Excuse me, but this is nonsense. C60 doesn't produce "massive quantities" of H2O2, and I don't think TEMPOL does either. As (putative) SOD mimetics, they inactivate superoxide anion before it can do harm. They create a small amount of H2O2 in this process, but that is a much safer compound than superoxide, and it will be handled by catalase. A decrease in ferritin would result in an increase in unliganded iron, which would result in an increase in Fenton chemistry.

Is there anything other than TEMPOL or c60 produce H2O2 in quantities, Higher? "massive quantities" as in a very large amount to cells considering there is an extremely small amount that you have in your body normally.
Tempol and c60 produce H2O2 levels high enough to damage the Ferritin molecule and release iron as you have said, which would increase the Fenton reaction. My point was that after all this iron is released from Ferritin and the SOD mimetics are destroyed, what happens? Based on the study using TEMPOL, it is obvious that adding H2O2 to a cell culture that was just bathed in SOD mimetic, will cause cell damage because of the Fenton reaction caused by all the free iron. This is precisely why I recommend starting at a low dose of what ever SOD mimetic you use and working your way up, giving your body time to decrease iron uptake, and reducing the Fenton reaction backlash.

Edited by anagram, 30 January 2013 - 07:43 PM.

[hav]

Is there anything other than TEMPOL or c60 produce H2O2 in quantities, Higher? "massive quantities" as in a very large amount to cells considering there is an extremely small amount that you have in your body normally.

Isn't hydrogen peroxide a potent oxidant? Wouldn't think much net good could come from massive quantities of that in your system.

Howard

[anagram]

Hydrogen peroxide is not a potent oxidant on its own. It is actually good for you depending on concentration and cell environment.

[niner]

C60 doesn't produce "massive quantities" of H2O2, and I don't think TEMPOL does either. As (putative) SOD mimetics, they inactivate superoxide anion before it can do harm. They create a small amount of H2O2 in this process, but that is a much safer compound than superoxide, and it will be handled by catalase. A decrease in ferritin would result in an increase in unliganded iron, which would result in an increase in Fenton chemistry.

Is there anything other than TEMPOL or c60 produce H2O2 in quantities, Higher? "massive quantities" as in a very large amount to cells considering there is an extremely small amount that you have in your body normally.
Tempol and c60 produce H2O2 levels high enough to damage the Ferritin molecule and release iron as you have said, which would increase the Fenton reaction. My point was that after all this iron is released from Ferritin and the SOD mimetics are destroyed, what happens? Based on the study using TEMPOL, it is obvious that adding H2O2 to a cell culture that was just bathed in SOD mimetic, will cause cell damage because of the Fenton reaction caused by all the free iron. This is precisely why I recommend starting at a low dose of what ever SOD mimetic you use and working your way up, giving your body time to decrease iron uptake, and reducing the Fenton reaction backlash.

Why in the hell would you want "massive quantities" of h2o2? Neither c60 nor TEMPOL damage ferritin by the production of peroxide. TEMPOL was reported to decrease the Expression of ferritin, but without a mechanism for that, you can't claim that C60 will have the same effect. There is no evidence that c60 decreases ferritin activity or raises free iron. All of the animal experiments would suggest just the opposite, if anything. The existing evidence favors infrequent larger doses rather than lots of small doses.

[anagram]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21429293

This study shows that H2O2 exerts an effect on ferrititn, causing free Fe ions to be released.
The other study on Tempol that I posted shows that Tempol causes increased cell damage from H2O2 once the Tempol has been removed. There is a connection between increased SOD activity and release of Fe, quite counter productively, the H2O2 damage that we are trying to alleviate is being increased once the SOD mimetic is removed.

"All of the animal experiments would suggest just the opposite, if anything."
hmmm
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18299140
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22891547
I was wrong. But the oxidative damage potential of c60 is still a concern.

I agree on the use of small dose's being worse that large dose's, I realized I was wrong about that.

Edited by anagram, 30 January 2013 - 10:04 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22891547
I was wrong. But the oxidative damage potential of c60 is still a concern.

I agree on the use of small dose's being worse that large dose's, I realized I was wrong about that.

And you get that from this study, where the "small" dose would be about 4 grams for a person?

[hav]

I tried freezing a small amount of c60/oo and did not see any c60 drop out of solution or even any separation of the solution into any layers. I tried it with about 30 ml of a .8mg/ml mix that had been magnetically stirred for 2 weeks and then filtered. Put it in a little cough-sirup cup, popped it into the freezer, and all I got was what looked like a greasy Italian-ice. Thinking of retrying with a larger amount, like 16 ounces or so, and placing it into the fridge for a few days before moving it to the freezer to see if it makes any difference.

Howard

OK, thanks for the report Howard. I had thought in the past, to keep the mix fresh it might be a good idea to maybe put it in ice cube trays and take out cubes as needed. Just an idea.

It does seem to reconstitute perfectly after freezing. Not sure you need to do that however because c60/oo is pretty stable. The Baati paper reported that they kept theirs in a cool but unrefrigerated dark place and it kept for the 4-years of their experiment.

But Maxwatt also mentioned getting some kind of separation into layers when he froze his that might be a separation of the c60 adducts from the rest of the oil.

One more factoid for us to chew: I store my C60-olive oil in the freezer.
It froze with a yellowish color, except for a thin top layer that was an intense dark red color. So it should be possible to isolate and concentrate the C60 adduct, and maybe cap it without all that olive oil.

However, the OO alone mice did see a 30% increase lifespan,and we do not know if the olive oil is necessary for the adduct to have a live-extending effect.

More mice, please.

I haven't been able to duplicate that yet. Not sure if his was shaken or stirred which might make a difference. But I'm trying again a larger 20 ounce container. So far I've left it in the fridge about a day and a half and all I can see is a slight formation of what looks like clear waxes on the surface. Not much, not even enough to fully cover the surface. Just a little pooling. I measured the fridge temperature at 37.5 degrees F. I'll move it into the freezer tonight.

Howard

[Turnbuckle]

I haven't been able to duplicate that yet.

I've not seen this either. It always freezes to a uniform pastel with no separation whatsoever.

[maxwatt]

I have to try it again, but I no longer have the wide mouth jar I used, nor enough C60-OO on hand. FWIW, it was Carbon60's first batch, and my freezer is at -2 degrees Fahrenheit. It was placed directly in the freezer from room temperature on a warm day last fall. Olive oil is a mixture of long chain molecules of different lengths and degrees of saturation, which solidify at different temperatures. If too cold when placed in freezer, or perhaps if agitated before freezing, mixing will prevent separation. Some separation should be observed as olive oil freezes even in the absence of C60.

[niner]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21429293

This study shows that H2O2 exerts an effect on ferrititn, causing free Fe ions to be released.
The other study on Tempol that I posted shows that Tempol causes increased cell damage from H2O2 once the Tempol has been removed. There is a connection between increased SOD activity and release of Fe, quite counter productively, the H2O2 damage that we are trying to alleviate is being increased once the SOD mimetic is removed.

No, you're misinterpreting that paper. The hydrogen peroxide was at a concentration of .01mM to 10mM. Superoxide concentrations in the cell are sub-nanomolar. Thus, the very lowest peroxide concentration used in this paper, for which there was almost no response, was ten thousand times larger than the highest possible peroxide concentration in the cell. Not only that, but superoxide is FAR more likely to cause iron release than hydrogen peroxide. Superoxide is a far more reactive molecule than hydrogen peroxide. You aren't going to get more free iron because of c60, you'll get less free iron because you've removed a reactive compound (superoxide) and replaced it with a much less reactive compound (peroxide), which the body has an efficient system for eliminating.

[anagram]

ok, sorry. I didn't mean to make to much of a fuss about things. Its just that ever since I discovered that c60 was genotoxic to small fish and animals, I have been worried about taking a dose that will cause such toxic effects. Apparently c60 is an incredibly good photosenzitizer, so might that not be counter productive toward longevity?

[Logan]

I have not been keeping up hear. Am I correct in understanding that now people are doing a single large dose once a month instead of much smaller doses everyday? If there is an advantage, other than ease of use, what is it?

[pleb]

anagram, this is an extract from one of your earlier posts,

" I didn't see any crystals or any solid lumps, It did change from brown to purple in the freezer, and I should add that the olive oil was solid while it was in the freezer but quickly melted. I saw the purple liquid and thought SHIT! "

reading this i get the impression you have been taking it while it is still brown within a few days of putting the C60 in the oil,?
it is not ready or fully mixed until it actually gets past the purple and changes to red,

there is a full thread on mixing including crushing the clumps to make it easier to dissolve, the colour changes from brown to whisky colour then to Purple and then when the adducts are fully formed it turns red, looking through a bottle held up to the a light it is a ruby colour, a small amount on a spoon will show a pink/red colour (like rosey wine ) sometimes with a purplish tinge,
i have found this colour with both SV's mix and with my own home brew using two different brands of olive oil it all changes eventually to the same reddish hue i think you need to leave yours a lot longer before taking it,

[YOLF]

A little over 6 months since Baati et al was published. I was wondering if the community should summarize what we have done so far, and release a non-scientific white paper around the year anniversary of the publication (May or June). We have cats, dogs, rats, mice, chickens, and humans all testing the stuff in real time. Seems we might be able to say with confidence that short term toxicity is unlikely (no one died yet, right?). Not sure what else we can say, but summarizing self-reported effects and negative side effects might be helpful for a wider community.

We should form a phone or skyp list and keep in touch with as many human who are taking it as possible.

[anagram]

anagram, this is an extract from one of your earlier posts,

" I didn't see any crystals or any solid lumps, It did change from brown to purple in the freezer, and I should add that the olive oil was solid while it was in the freezer but quickly melted. I saw the purple liquid and thought SHIT! "

reading this i get the impression you have been taking it while it is still brown within a few days of putting the C60 in the oil,?
it is not ready or fully mixed until it actually gets past the purple and changes to red,

there is a full thread on mixing including crushing the clumps to make it easier to dissolve, the colour changes from brown to whisky colour then to Purple and then when the adducts are fully formed it turns red, looking through a bottle held up to the a light it is a ruby colour, a small amount on a spoon will show a pink/red colour (like rosey wine ) sometimes with a purplish tinge,
i have found this colour with both SV's mix and with my own home brew using two different brands of olive oil it all changes eventually to the same reddish hue i think you need to leave yours a lot longer before taking it,

I will mix my c60 a lot now. I didn't know that brown was a sign of not being fully dissolved, I have seen others use brown c60-oo, I thought it was safe.

I am wondering about whether the effects of c60 are comparable to selegiline.
I have enough money right now to purchase another vial of c60, however I want to try Selegiline but my budget will not allow two purchases simultaneously. Which do you think I should get?

Edited by anagram, 31 January 2013 - 06:35 PM.

[niner]

I will mix my c60 a lot now. I didn't know that brown was a sign of not being fully dissolved, I have seen others use brown c60-oo, I thought it was safe.

I am wondering about whether the effects of c60 are comparable to selegiline.
I have enough money right now to purchase another vial of c60, however I want to try Selegiline but my budget will not allow two purchases simultaneously. Which do you think I should get?

I don't think there's any acute danger whether it's brown, purple, or red. The color that you perceive very much depends on things like how much you are looking through, what the concentration is, what color container it's in (obviously) and the color of other components of the oil. (like chlorophyll)

C60-oo has NOTHING to do with Selegiline. There's no reason to expect similar effects, other than placebo effects.

[pleb]

( Quote )
I will mix my c60 a lot now. I didn't know that brown was a sign of not being fully dissolved, I have seen others use brown c60-oo, I thought it was safe,.

if it's not fully mixed it just becomes a waste and probably doesn't do what it should, it goes in one end and out the other

[anagram]

( Quote )
I will mix my c60 a lot now. I didn't know that brown was a sign of not being fully dissolved, I have seen others use brown c60-oo, I thought it was safe,.

if it's not fully mixed it just becomes a waste and probably doesn't do what it should, it goes in one end and out the other

I am sure that the specificity of colour is not entirely determinate in c60's efficacy. But I am pretty sure that depending on concentration, you may get diminished effects or no effect at all.
I should also add that c60-oo's colour will change depending on temperature, suggesting something other than simple mixing of the c60 in olive oil as the determining factor in appearance.
BTW Niner, I know that c60 has "nothing" to do with selegiline, I am just asking if anyone can help me choose either one of them. I feel like c60 has positive effects, while selegiline has its own profound benefits, I want both. Life's a choice, I ask you guys.

Edited by anagram, 01 February 2013 - 12:21 AM.

[alecnevsky]

I have not been keeping up hear. Am I correct in understanding that now people are doing a single large dose once a month instead of much smaller doses everyday? If there is an advantage, other than ease of use, what is it?

+1 I am also interested in this.

I really want to gauge the efficacy of C60 after intense workouts b/c, as it is right now, it takes like 72 hrs for recovery. If c60 is a potent antioxidant, I wonder whether it is possible to both, render [cardio, ngf, strength] benefits of HIIT exercise and recover quicker (<48hrs)? I heard that oxidation is apparently crucial for exercise benefits, but somehow I am not entirely convinced given new research on HIIT-induced NGF and glucose benefits. Any ideas?

Great thread btw.

Edited by alecnevsky, 01 February 2013 - 02:24 AM.

[niner]

I have not been keeping up hear. Am I correct in understanding that now people are doing a single large dose once a month instead of much smaller doses everyday? If there is an advantage, other than ease of use, what is it?

+1 I am also interested in this.

I really want to gauge the efficacy of C60 after intense workouts b/c, as it is right now, it takes like 72 hrs for recovery. If c60 is a potent antioxidant, I wonder whether it is possible to both, render [cardio, ngf, strength] benefits of HIIT exercise and recover quicker (<48hrs)? I heard that oxidation is apparently crucial for exercise benefits, but somehow I am not entirely convinced given new research on HIIT-induced NGF and glucose benefits. Any ideas?

Great thread btw.

Thanks alec. This is probably our best thread ever. A number of people seem to have evolved to longer intervals between doses. For example, I'm taking 15mg every 4 weeks. One obvious reason is "because you can". I find the effects that I like from c60 are maintained throughout the interval. So ease of use is a major attraction. I have two other reasons that I like the long interval, both of which are hypothetical. The first has to do with cancer cells typically having upregulated ROS production, and thus being in need of extra antioxidant help. If a normal cell transforms into a cancer cell, the hope would be that it undergoes apoptosis due to oxidative damage before it gets out of control. Longer intervals would give this process more time to occur, while daily dosing would feed a potent antioxidant to the daughter cells on a constant basis, at least hypothetically. My other hypothetical concern has to do with the biphasic pharmacokinetics of c60. When you take a dose, it will be detected in the blood at a relatively high level, and this level will drop with a moderate half life- ten hours as I recall. (or so) During this time, the compound is floating around in the system, and is available to dock in any receptor that happens to fit the c60-fatty acid adduct. I don't know if such receptors exist, or if so, what effect they would have, but I'm not interested in increasing the chance of unknown receptor-mediated effects. The adduct will ultimately partition into membranes and other lipid depots, and some is probably excreted. At this point, the blood levels of the free adduct are very low, but it stays in the membranes far longer, having a half life that's probably on the order of 1-2 weeks.

I hope Turnbuckle chimes in here, as he's someone who has experimented extensively with dosing, and has also arrived at a long interval strategy, which I think was weekly.

The question of the effect of c60 on exercise response is a big one. So far, I don't think that I've heard anyone say they're getting smaller, or not getting as much out of their program. A number of people have seen a profound reduction in muscle fatigue, which is a ROS-mediated response. This only seems to show up when a trained muscle is worked to the point of fatigue, that is, you just cant do another rep. Untrained muscles have other failure modes related something neural. I think the muscle fatigue phenomenon shows up more readily in smaller muscles, at least that's my experience. At any rate, some of us have been able to blow through our previous max reps by a very large degree, and (to a man, I think) have ended up injuring ourselves. If you do manage to blow through an earlier limit, don't go crazy with it. I'm pretty sure that people have spoken about recovery times, but I don't remember the details. One thing that I think I've noticed since using c60 is that after a workout, I don't seem to have as much of an endorphin-y feeling as I used to. It's kind of subtle, but it's a negative of c60, kind of like not feeling as much of a buzz from alcohol. Price you pay, I guess... But I like the rest of it and wouldn't go back.

[anagram]

c60 helps your body cope with oxidative stress, so as a result, your NMDA receptors stay open for longer because your body can handle the increased oxidative stress.
open NMDA receptors = mild depression.
BTW, that depression has gotten worse and worse for me since taking c60, its not like I am about to jump off a cliff, but I feel like I need drugs in my life all the sudden
i.e selegiline

[mikey]

( Quote )
I will mix my c60 a lot now. I didn't know that brown was a sign of not being fully dissolved, I have seen others use brown c60-oo, I thought it was safe,.

if it's not fully mixed it just becomes a waste and probably doesn't do what it should, it goes in one end and out the other

I am sure that the specificity of colour is not entirely determinate in c60's efficacy. But I am pretty sure that depending on concentration, you may get diminished effects or no effect at all.
I should also add that c60-oo's colour will change depending on temperature, suggesting something other than simple mixing of the c60 in olive oil as the determining factor in appearance.
BTW Niner, I know that c60 has "nothing" to do with selegiline, I am just asking if anyone can help me choose either one of them. I feel like c60 has positive effects, while selegiline has its own profound benefits, I want both. Life's a choice, I ask you guys.

C60 has far more profound effects than selegiline. No contest.

The potential to extend lifespan, reduce risk of cancer, Alzheimer's and other inflammatory diseases.
No comparison.

[Logic]

...One thing that I think I've noticed since using c60 is that after a workout, I don't seem to have as much of an endorphin-y feeling as I used to. It's kind of subtle, but it's a negative of c60, kind of like not feeling as much of a buzz from alcohol. Price you pay, I guess... But I like the rest of it and wouldn't go back.

+1 and I miss it!
That feeling was a big motivator to go to gym...
Perhaps someone can suggest something to mimic the feeling?
St Johns Wort or 5HTP perhaps?

I dose every 4 or 5 days depending on how I feel, as that is the length of time that I feel positive effects.