3585 replies to this topic

[Mind]

Darn...sorry for taking this thread off-topic. There are some other threads critiquing the FDA here, here, here, and here.

[somecallmetim]

My approach has been to take only as much as I needed in order to maintain the effects I wanted. While I don't necessarily want the muscle fatigue reduction, I think that represents a level where ROS are being significantly reduced. I'm taking enough to maintain that state. In my case, that's 15mg once every month.

Modest amounts of ROS generation from “regular, moderate exercise” are beneficial because it activates the hormetic effect. So, if C60-oo does indeed reduce ROS levels, then wouldn’t ingesting C60-oo be counterproductive?

It would be interesting if there were some serious bodybuilders on this forum who were ingesting C60-oo, to find whether they have noticed a lack in muscle mass development since introducing it to their protocol.

[anagram]

I agree with somecallmetim, if we could get results from a person whom monitors they're muscle mass we might figure out If C60 has a positive effect on muscle growth, however I would like to add that any reports of excessive growth would be helpful.

Edited by anagram, 17 March 2013 - 03:45 AM.

[niner]

My approach has been to take only as much as I needed in order to maintain the effects I wanted. While I don't necessarily want the muscle fatigue reduction, I think that represents a level where ROS are being significantly reduced. I'm taking enough to maintain that state. In my case, that's 15mg once every month.

Modest amounts of ROS generation from “regular, moderate exercise” are beneficial because it activates the hormetic effect. So, if C60-oo does indeed reduce ROS levels, then wouldn’t ingesting C60-oo be counterproductive?

It would be interesting if there were some serious bodybuilders on this forum who were ingesting C60-oo, to find whether they have noticed a lack in muscle mass development since introducing it to their protocol.

Early on, this was a big concern of mine. At the very least, there haven't been any reports of guys getting weaker or losing mass. After a fairly long time away from the gym recently, I wasn't as strong as I had been, but I bounced back soon enough, so that seems like a good sign. I still think that this is something we should monitor, particularly if anyone is taking c60 during an active muscle building phase.

Aside from muscle building, I've also been concerned that c60 might downregulate endogenous antioxidant systems. If that happened in Baati's rats, it didn't seem to hurt them. On that basis, I'd surmise that c60 was a net win. It might be the case that the endogenous defenses maintain a basal rate, and don't drop below that, but that's a speculation at this point. A possible upshot of this would be that if you're going to take c60, you should keep taking it forever. Again, this is speculative. Baati's rats had an extremely square mortality curve- They all lived for a very long time, then they all died in rapid succession. One explanation of this could be that some other non-redox failure mode that accrues at a slow constant rate finally caught up with them, though I don't have an obvious candidate for that. (amyloidosis?) Another explanation involves the fact that their treatment was terminated after six months. I'd fully expect the levels of the adduct in their membranes to gradually decline, and we've certainly seen evidence that this happens. The levels required for effectiveness are very low, and the half life is very long, but eventually their levels may have declined below the effective level, and they were rapidly overtaken by the oxidative challenge. It would be easy to test that hypothesis in an animal trial by treating some of them over a brief loading period, like Baati, and having a second arm of the trial that gets "booster doses" throughout their life.

[petitemort]

hello please forgive me for cutting the thread of this conversation that I haven't read from the begining. I will take time to read it all with a lot of interest, But at the moment I have a special concern and would like to ask questions about that.
That have been discused earlier but I can't find where. So I try hard to stop smoking small cigars with filter, Most of the time I smoke 6 cigars over saturdays and sundays and I remember I read somewhere warnings to smokers that take C60-oo but I don't remember what it was could someone explain it for me please?

[mikey]

Hi Mike. Sure I think it's possible that you experienced some increase in endurance-I'm just not completely convinced yet. It seems that most people who get the C60-oo cough(which I believe is genuine) are more likely to report increases in endurance, or other types of positve biological/physiological reactions. The reason could be that the C60-oo adduct is really working some magic, OR it could partially be the C60-00 adduct working some majic, mixed with a little placebo, OR it could be that some people who get the c60-oo cough have high expectations and WILL the added endurance to be there.

I take tocotrienols on occasion to support hair health and texture but not to prevent graying. If your hair got darker, that means that the tocotrienols or the c60-oo initiated some kind of hair color reversal. To my knowledge, there's no solid research out there that can back up that claim for tocotrienols. Even the LEF, a company always ready jump on a solid in-vitro study and launch a new product doesnt claim that their tocotrienols can prevent graying, let along reverse hair color to a natural state.

This NYU study seem to think graying has more to do with Wnt signalling and Melonocyte stem cells:
http://www.scienceda...10614115046.htm

If that's the case, I think that C60-oo would be a more likely candidate to return greying hair to its natural color than would tocotrienols. But I still think its very unlikely.

Here's something in development from L'oreal:
http://www.huffingto..._n_1210499.html

Here's a piece of the article:
"undisclosed fruit extract that mimics TRP-2 (also known as tyrosinase-related protein), which is an enzyme that protects your hair pigment. There's a catch, however: the pill only prevents grey hair -- if you're already sporting silver locks, it's too late. In fact, you'd need to take the pill regularly for 10 years prior to going grey to reap the benefits.

Well, it's not just me that saw that my hair has darkened.
I did a speaking event last summer in Albuquerque and someone who moved there and hadn't seen me in three years remarked that my hair was thicker and darker.

This without prompting.

There's no question that the tocotrienols were the only agent that could have made that happen.

Maybe you had a shorter haircut, or a different haircut. People say those things to me sometimes without prompting, sometimes when I gel my hair. funny thing is,my hair is probably less dark. People also comment from time to time that my body looks thinner, or maybe more muscular but the fact is I've been 170 lbs for a very long time, and what they are seeing is a different set of cloths that make my body appear thinner or more muscular. Again, theres not one shred of solid research that I know of that shows tocotrienols can reverse the color of a persons hair to a darker color. But maybe you're one in a million, who knows anything's possible.

No. I'm quite sure of the difference. This is not a matter of slight differences. This is a clear, easily seen difference.
And the explanation could reside in the antioxidant effect of the tocotrienols reducing the effect of H₂O₂-mediated oxidative stress that greys/whitens hair.

I will produce an "after" photo or two soon. I have the photographer who took photos of me in 2011 coming here to take photos in the same light, same hair cut with everything the same.

There's also no question that wrinkles and scars on my face have faded considerably.

Where before people consistently guessed me as in my forties, now I'm guessed as about 42, so there's been a few years shaved off with the use of C60oo since early August.

[Turnbuckle]

hello please forgive me for cutting the thread of this conversation that I haven't read from the begining. I will take time to read it all with a lot of interest, But at the moment I have a special concern and would like to ask questions about that.
That have been discused earlier but I can't find where. So I try hard to stop smoking small cigars with filter, Most of the time I smoke 6 cigars over saturdays and sundays and I remember I read somewhere warnings to smokers that take C60-oo but I don't remember what it was could someone explain it for me please?

That discussion starts at post 1428.

http://www.longecity...post__p__546663

Edited by Turnbuckle, 17 March 2013 - 05:15 PM.

[Kevnzworld]

Hi Mike. Sure I think it's possible that you experienced some increase in endurance-I'm just not completely convinced yet. It seems that most people who get the C60-oo cough(which I believe is genuine) are more likely to report increases in endurance, or other types of positve biological/physiological reactions. The reason could be that the C60-oo adduct is really working some magic, OR it could partially be the C60-00 adduct working some majic, mixed with a little placebo, OR it could be that some people who get the c60-oo cough have high expectations and WILL the added endurance to be there.

I take tocotrienols on occasion to support hair health and texture but not to prevent graying. If your hair got darker, that means that the tocotrienols or the c60-oo initiated some kind of hair color reversal. To my knowledge, there's no solid research out there that can back up that claim for tocotrienols. Even the LEF, a company always ready jump on a solid in-vitro study and launch a new product doesnt claim that their tocotrienols can prevent graying, let along reverse hair color to a natural state.

This NYU study seem to think graying has more to do with Wnt signalling and Melonocyte stem cells:
http://www.scienceda...10614115046.htm

If that's the case, I think that C60-oo would be a more likely candidate to return greying hair to its natural color than would tocotrienols.

Well, it's not just me that saw that my hair has darkened.
I did a speaking event last summer in Albuquerque and someone who moved there and hadn't seen me in three years remarked that my hair was thicker and darker.
There's no question that the tocotrienols were the only agent that could have made that happen.

I will produce an "after" photo or two soon. I have the photographer who took photos of me in 2011 coming here to take photos in the same light, same hair cut with everything the same.

There's also no question that wrinkles and scars on my face have faded considerably.

Where before people consistently guessed me as in my forties, now I'm guessed as about 42, so there's been a few years shaved off with the use of C60oo since early August.

Mikey,
Your thoughts on the tocotrienol intervention for reversing grey hair deserves its own thread in either the supplement forum or the hair and skin lifestyle forum.
I have never seen a study that substantiates the efficacy of the oral use of tocotrienols for that purpose, but its an interesting idea.

Edited by Kevnzworld, 17 March 2013 - 05:56 PM.

[mikey]

Hi Mike. Sure I think it's possible that you experienced some increase in endurance-I'm just not completely convinced yet. It seems that most people who get the C60-oo cough(which I believe is genuine) are more likely to report increases in endurance, or other types of positve biological/physiological reactions. The reason could be that the C60-oo adduct is really working some magic, OR it could partially be the C60-00 adduct working some majic, mixed with a little placebo, OR it could be that some people who get the c60-oo cough have high expectations and WILL the added endurance to be there.

I take tocotrienols on occasion to support hair health and texture but not to prevent graying. If your hair got darker, that means that the tocotrienols or the c60-oo initiated some kind of hair color reversal. To my knowledge, there's no solid research out there that can back up that claim for tocotrienols. Even the LEF, a company always ready jump on a solid in-vitro study and launch a new product doesnt claim that their tocotrienols can prevent graying, let along reverse hair color to a natural state.

This NYU study seem to think graying has more to do with Wnt signalling and Melonocyte stem cells:
http://www.scienceda...10614115046.htm

If that's the case, I think that C60-oo would be a more likely candidate to return greying hair to its natural color than would tocotrienols.

Well, it's not just me that saw that my hair has darkened.
I did a speaking event last summer in Albuquerque and someone who moved there and hadn't seen me in three years remarked that my hair was thicker and darker.
There's no question that the tocotrienols were the only agent that could have made that happen.

I will produce an "after" photo or two soon. I have the photographer who took photos of me in 2011 coming here to take photos in the same light, same hair cut with everything the same.

There's also no question that wrinkles and scars on my face have faded considerably.

Where before people consistently guessed me as in my forties, now I'm guessed as about 42, so there's been a few years shaved off with the use of C60oo since early August.

Mikey,
Your thoughts on the tocotrienol intervention for reversing grey hair deserves its own thread in either the supplement forum or the hair and skin lifestyle forum.
I have never seen a study that substantiates the efficacy of the oral use of tocotrienols for that purpose, but its an interesting idea.

Ah. I'll find time to post something comprehensive on the hair and skin forum.

The logic stands. Antioxidants, if they target some aspect of metabolism specifically, can reduce the oxidative damage that results in every aspect of aging.

C60 has been showing this to us all, as it apparently has tremendously powerful antioxidant effects in minute compartments of metabolism that other antioxidants cannot enter.

The notion that hair can return to a more youthful state isn't far fetched.

Follicles don't "die."

They just become dysfunctional via the effects of oxidative stress created by the age-related decreased control of the body's natural oxidative agents, like super oxide and hydrogen peroxide.

We wear down in every part of metabolism because our antioxidant mechanisms experience decreased potency in their roles controlling oxidative agents, either endogenous or exogenous.

I find it fascinating that C60oo can do so much more in addressing oxidative aging mechanisms than other antioxidants.

[Turnbuckle]

Background:

I'm 23 with quite debilitating chronic fatigue and cognitive dysfunction; no obvious viral element, but occasional uncomfortable brain sensations, apnoea and similar subtle problems.

I don't really have the capacity to evaluate the science, but I've been sick for 11 years and frankly becoming more and more open to experimental ideas.

I was on different antidepressants from my childhood into my late teens. No benefit, but a lot of side effects. I'm not sure of the relationship, but I was intrigued by the idea of mitochondrial involvement.

C60 response:

I took 1.5mg of C60, ordered from Sarah Vaughter's site. Delivery was under a week to me in the UK, which was a nice surprise.

About 3 or 4 hours later, when I ate my evening meal my stomach started to feel uncomfortable. It was just a lingering soreness which lasted perhaps 6 or 7 hours into the night.

Two times I tried taking a methylcobalamin 1mg and 5MTHF 800mcg supplement orally. It didn't stop the soreness, but may have temporarily reduced it; I'm unsure.

The reason I tried to take the folate in particular, was that the stomach soreness was similar to my experience taking hyroxy and methylcobalamin previously...

It is just a feeling of my digestive tract being just sore all over, sometimes quite painfully so. When I first took 500mcg of hydroxocobalamin sublingually my stomach almost immediately felt sore like an allergic reaction. It progressed to nausea, immense fatigue, then later to aching bones and constant diarrhoea over the course of a couple of days. I thought I was going to have to go to the hospital, but decided to try a tablet of 800mcg 5MTHF and the symptoms began to dissipate almost immediately.

I don't know how to explain it. All I can guess is there is some bottleneck related to methylation and I push my body over the edge somehow. I can't say for sure it was the same reaction. The stomach soreness was similar in the fact that there was no accompanying diarrhoea, as that was the last symptom to appear after the B12.

My blood tests for B12 tend to be mid-high on the range and folate mid-low. My urine MMA and FIGLU weren't particularly low either, iirc. The only related tests I can think of have been homocysteine at the limit of the reference range and low methionine on a bloodspot amino acid test where every other amino was instead high.

I am really disappointed, but perhaps my experience can shed light on the activity of C60. I would recommend anyone who tries C60 to take the smallest possible dose at first, just in case.

I said at the time that it was probably a coincidence, but I now take that back. C60 may be putting pressure on endogenous anti-oxidants by up-regulating the mitochondria. Thus you may need methionine and glutathione support. For the latter, you might try NAC.

[niner]

C60 may be putting pressure on endogenous anti-oxidants by up-regulating the mitochondria. Thus you may need methionine and glutathione support. For the latter, you might try NAC.

You've seen some interesting possible synergy between c60 and NAC; is that still holding up? Do you notice anything outside of the gym? I don't know about mitochondrial up-regulation as a MoA for this effect, necessarily, but there could well be something going on that depletes thiols in some way.

[mikey]

It's interesting that NAC, which converts to glutathione, would have any effect.

This is because in the study when they gave the rats lethal carbon tet, what would normally happen is that the body would produce great amounts of glutathione and SOD to try to detox the carbon tet.

But glutathione and SOD levels did not increase and the C60 detoxed the carbon tet so there was no lethal damage.

This suggests that C60 is a glutathione mimetic or somehow did the work that glutathione does to detox.

Can someone with more knowledge of biochem comment on this?

Edited by mikey, 18 March 2013 - 06:58 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

But glutathione and SOD levels did not increase and the C60 detoxed the carbon tet so there was no lethal damage.

Can you quote the passage you're referring to re glutathione? It looks to me that the ratio of oxidized glutathione to total glutathione was being reported, but I don't see the total glutathione reported separately.

[Turnbuckle]

C60 may be putting pressure on endogenous anti-oxidants by up-regulating the mitochondria. Thus you may need methionine and glutathione support. For the latter, you might try NAC.

You've seen some interesting possible synergy between c60 and NAC; is that still holding up? Do you notice anything outside of the gym? I don't know about mitochondrial up-regulation as a MoA for this effect, necessarily, but there could well be something going on that depletes thiols in some way.

Yes, that's why I suggested it. I've had more energy in general with the C60/NAC combination, but the real test is, will NAC keep the C60 effects from fading with continuous use?

Edited by Turnbuckle, 18 March 2013 - 08:01 PM.

[mikey]

But glutathione and SOD levels did not increase and the C60 detoxed the carbon tet so there was no lethal damage.

Can you quote the passage you're referring to re glutathione? It looks to me that the ratio of oxidized glutathione to total glutathione was being reported, but I don't see the total glutathione reported separately.

You're right. Re-reading it.

[anagram]

Why is NAC superior to Vitamin-C? I really think that NAC is lacks the safety profile of vitamin C, I can't see why I would not want the former. While you muck around with NAC + C60 are the effects you are experiencing truly because Glutathione, or are they the effect of NAC alone?

The study using zebra fish was flawed in some respects, C60 must be properly dissolved into water or else aggregates form.

Edited by anagram, 18 March 2013 - 10:10 PM.

[stephen_b]

Why is NAC superior to Vitamin-C?

So try vitamin C and report back on any gains you notice.

[anagram]

I cannot offer very decent evaluations of physical strength, I don't exercise with much schedule or enthusiasm.

[niner]

If it were to be the case that there were particular synergies between c60 and hydrophobic antioxidants, that might have something to do with not only what Turnbuckle's been seeing, but also the extraordinary results reported by mikey, who has been simultaneously using high-dose tocotrienols.

FWIW, I've used C60 both with and without a gram of vitamin C twice a day, and didn't notice any obvious difference.

[anagram]

Sort of like when I mixed Lycopene + Astaxanthin + c60 together? I didn't notice much improvement from those antioxidants however I didn't use vitamin E. Unbelievably I am still alive and "sane" after mixing phenyl ethyl amine + C60, and I feel like that mixture gives better results than Astaxanthin + C60.

Edited by anagram, 18 March 2013 - 10:50 PM.

[motorcitykid]

I've decided to give hyperbaric oxygen therapy a try. Mri shows I have 2 slightly bulging discs in my lower lumbar and I'm hoping that I'll reap some of the benefits of the reported 8 fold increase stem cells:
http://www.scienceda...51228175511.htm

(In addition I'll be working with a chiropractor on a flexion/distraction table, which employs a form a decompression on the spine)

Anyhow, I'm wondering if I should double down on my regular C60-oo dose(15mg per month) and add 500mg of NAC daily, to ameliorate any potential oxygen toxicity from the hyperbaric. My only concern is that the antioxidant load might somehow interfere with any potential stem cell proliferation induced through oxygen pressure. Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated.

[niner]

I've decided to give hyperbaric oxygen therapy a try. Mri shows I have 2 slightly bulging discs in my lower lumbar and I'm hoping that I'll reap some of the benefits of the reported 8 fold increase stem cells:
http://www.scienceda...51228175511.htm

(In addition I'll be working with a chiropractor on a flexion/distraction table, which employs a form a decompression on the spine)

Anyhow, I'm wondering if I should double down on my regular C60-oo dose(15mg per month) and add 500mg of NAC daily, to ameliorate any potential oxygen toxicity from the hyperbaric. My only concern is that the antioxidant load might somehow interfere with any potential stem cell proliferation induced through oxygen pressure. Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated.

We've seen some indications that c60 increases stem cells. Stem cells in the undifferentiated state use a glycolytic metabolism which doesn't create ROS, thus maintaining the stem cells in good shape until they are needed. When the stem cell differentiates, it switches over to oxidative phosphorylation. If the changeover to oxphos is not quite successful, I hypothesize that the cell gets stuck in a not-quite-differentiated state. C60 seems to dramatically improve oxygen utilization, as evidenced by profound improvements in various disease states involving hypoxia. It might be rescuing those (hypothetical) failed differentiations, resulting in an apparent increase in stem cells. Maybe hyperbaric O2 works similarly?

As far as I know, people do hyperbaric O2 without antioxidants, so you probably wouldn't need to increase your dose. Whether a higher dose would be better or worse, I couldn't say. I'd probably stay at the level your at, absent any new knowledge.

[motorcitykid]

I've decided to give hyperbaric oxygen therapy a try. Mri shows I have 2 slightly bulging discs in my lower lumbar and I'm hoping that I'll reap some of the benefits of the reported 8 fold increase stem cells:
http://www.scienceda...51228175511.htm

(In addition I'll be working with a chiropractor on a flexion/distraction table, which employs a form a decompression on the spine)

Anyhow, I'm wondering if I should double down on my regular C60-oo dose(15mg per month) and add 500mg of NAC daily, to ameliorate any potential oxygen toxicity from the hyperbaric. My only concern is that the antioxidant load might somehow interfere with any potential stem cell proliferation induced through oxygen pressure. Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated.

We've seen some indications that c60 increases stem cells. Stem cells in the undifferentiated state use a glycolytic metabolism which doesn't create ROS, thus maintaining the stem cells in good shape until they are needed. When the stem cell differentiates, it switches over to oxidative phosphorylation. If the changeover to oxphos is not quite successful, I hypothesize that the cell gets stuck in a not-quite-differentiated state. C60 seems to dramatically improve oxygen utilization, as evidenced by profound improvements in various disease states involving hypoxia. It might be rescuing those (hypothetical) failed differentiations, resulting in an apparent increase in stem cells. Maybe hyperbaric O2 works similarly?

As far as I know, people do hyperbaric O2 without antioxidants, so you probably wouldn't need to increase your dose. Whether a higher dose would be better or worse, I couldn't say. I'd probably stay at the level your at, absent any new knowledge.

Thanks for the breakdown on this subject, Niner. Much appreciated.

It makes me wonder..

Apart from C60's antioxidant qualities, is it crazy to think that there could be some synergistic effect in assisting the body to optimally utilize HBOT induced stem cells? Even if C60 is doing its OWN THING to trigger stem cells or rescue the failed diffentiators via oxygen utilization, maybe C60 will also play a complimentary role or a supportive role or contributory role with HBOT in some way?



Not to get to off topic here (I'll move the HBOT discussion to another thread), but maybe I should take more pycnogenol to increase nitric oxide availibility for optimal HBOT results?

I lifted this quote about HBOT'S mechanism:

"We reproduced the observations from humans in animals in order to identify the mechanism for the hyperbaric oxygen effect," added Thom. "We found that hyperbaric oxygen mobilizes stem/progenitor cells because it increases synthesis of a molecule called nitric oxide in the bone marrow. This synthesis is thought to trigger enzymes that mediate stem/progenitor cell release."

However, having extra nitric oxide circulating in my blood from taking pycnogenol is different than having it in the bone marrrow , and HBOT is sythesising nitric oxide contained in the bone marrow. If this is the case, then taking pycnogenol wouldn't do a thing. Am I correct in this assumption?

For anyone interested, here's the complete study on HBOT and stem cells in it's entirety:
http://ajpheart.phys.../H1378.full.pdf

Edited by motorcitykid, 19 March 2013 - 02:30 AM.

[hav]

Baati's rats had an extremely square mortality curve- They all lived for a very long time, then they all died in rapid succession. One explanation of this could be that some other non-redox failure mode that accrues at a slow constant rate finally caught up with them, though I don't have an obvious candidate for that. (amyloidosis?) Another explanation involves the fact that their treatment was terminated after six months. I'd fully expect the levels of the adduct in their membranes to gradually decline, and we've certainly seen evidence that this happens. The levels required for effectiveness are very low, and the half life is very long, but eventually their levels may have declined below the effective level, and they were rapidly overtaken by the oxidative challenge. It would be easy to test that hypothesis in an animal trial by treating some of them over a brief loading period, like Baati, and having a second arm of the trial that gets "booster doses" throughout their life.

My prediction, based on the Baati observations, is that it would make little difference. Because the predominant life extension effect observed in the Baati study was that the rats did not die of the cancerous tumors as they usually do. If they had died of the usual causes, just 2 years later, then it would be logical that discontinuing treatment for most of the last 2 years of their lives perhaps resulted in declined c60 levels that caught up with them. But it didn't happen. The levels may or may not have declined, but not enough for cancer to establish itself as usual. Old age caught up with them first. And resveratrol studies tell us that its antioxidant effect doesn't significantly postpone death from old age.

Not that I'm complaining. Cancer prevention would be a spectacular result. And possibly improving quality of life isn't so bad either. It just may not necessarily postpone death from old age.

Howard

Edited by hav, 19 March 2013 - 06:24 AM.

[niner]

Apart from C60's antioxidant qualities, is it crazy to think that there could be some synergistic effect in assisting the body to optimally utilize HBOT induced stem cells? Even if C60 is doing its OWN THING to trigger stem cells or rescue the failed diffentiators via oxygen utilization, maybe C60 will also play a complimentary role or a supportive role or contributory role with HBOT in some way?

Well, the two methods might be acting through a common mechanism, or they might be unrelated- we don't have enough to go on to really say. Whether they were the same or different, it seems logical that the effects would be at least loosely additive, but if the mechanisms are different and somehow complementary, the best-case scenario would be a multiplicative effect or synergy.

However, having extra nitric oxide circulating in my blood from taking pycnogenol is different than having it in the bone marrrow , and HBOT is sythesising nitric oxide contained in the bone marrow. If this is the case, then taking pycnogenol wouldn't do a thing. Am I correct in this assumption?

I'm not sure if pycnogenol would help, although my guess would be that it at least wouldn't hurt (though you never know). If a drug is in your circulating blood, it usually winds up pretty much everywhere, with the exception of the brain. The blood-brain barrier presents a narrower set of requirements than those that govern general bioavailability. I don't know to what extent a compound like pycnogenol would get into bone marrow, but there would probably be at least some penetration. Whether or not it would help is still a question.

[niner]

And resveratrol studies tell us that its antioxidant effect doesn't significantly postpone death from old age.

Resveratrol's effects have nothing to do with it being a (weak) antioxidant. It has horrible bioavailability, short half life, and it doesn't localize to the source of the free radicals. C60-oo, on the other hand, is a spectacular catalytic antioxidant, has great bioavailability, an extremely long half life, and localizes to the mitochondrial membranes where most of the ROS production and damage occurs. These two are really like night and day, so we can't use resveratrol (or any other of the common antioxidant, all of which suffer from various problems) to rule out an antioxidant mechanism in c60-oo.

[hav]

And resveratrol studies tell us that its antioxidant effect doesn't significantly postpone death from old age.

Resveratrol's effects have nothing to do with it being a (weak) antioxidant. It has horrible bioavailability, short half life, and it doesn't localize to the source of the free radicals. C60-oo, on the other hand, is a spectacular catalytic antioxidant, has great bioavailability, an extremely long half life, and localizes to the mitochondrial membranes where most of the ROS production and damage occurs. These two are really like night and day, so we can't use resveratrol (or any other of the common antioxidant, all of which suffer from various problems) to rule out an antioxidant mechanism in c60-oo.

Actually pubmed studies usually describes the antioxidant effect of resveratrol as strong. Never as weak. But they've never compared c60 with any other antioxidant, so maybe relative conceptions are in for a change. But the point I'm really making is that so far, no study including Baati has clearly shown any antioxidant postponing death from old age. The only one that came close was a tetrahydrocurcumin and green tea polyphenol antioxidant mouse study discussed in another thread which is suspect because the controls all seemed to die prematurely. Granted, you may be right, that c60 is such an effective, far reaching, and long lasting antioxidant that it will change everything. We just need at least one study in animals that usually die of old age to prove that.

Howard

[Kevnzworld]

The only one that came close was a tetrahydrocurcumin and green tea polyphenol antioxidant mouse study discussed in another thread which is suspect because the controls all seemed to die prematurely.

This reminds me of the NIA ITP study discussed here.
http://www.longecity...et-resveratrol/
The positive longevity results are also explained as just being a result of the poor husbandry of the control mice. It would seem to me that however the mice were fed and cared for , the same would have applied to both the supplemented and control animals.

[stephen_b]

Why is NAC superior to Vitamin-C?

So try vitamin C and report back on any gains you notice.

Just found this while browsing. N-Acetylcysteine in the Treatment of Childhood Autism looked at using NAC for childhood autism, and made the following comment that should be more generally applicable to the population at large and is an argument for the superiority of NAC to vitamin C in some ways:

Studies have looked at substances such as vitamin C and omega-3 fatty acids, but these showed less benefit than NAC. The possible difference between NAC and other antioxidants in this case is that cysteine is a precursor to glutathione and thus will increase the size of the glutathione pool. Other antioxidants such as vitamin C will only reduce oxidized glutathione and will not affect the overall amount available, which is the postulated difference in efficacy between vitamin C and glutathione.

[niner]

Actually pubmed studies usually describes the antioxidant effect of resveratrol as strong. Never as weak. But they've never compared c60 with any other antioxidant, so maybe relative conceptions are in for a change. But the point I'm really making is that so far, no study including Baati has clearly shown any antioxidant postponing death from old age. The only one that came close was a tetrahydrocurcumin and green tea polyphenol antioxidant mouse study discussed in another thread which is suspect because the controls all seemed to die prematurely. Granted, you may be right, that c60 is such an effective, far reaching, and long lasting antioxidant that it will change everything. We just need at least one study in animals that usually die of old age to prove that.

Actually, most pubmed studies don't call resveratrol a strong antioxidant, only a handful (15 out of 4-5,000) do, and those are mostly in vitro work and/or papers where an antioxidant effect wasn't actually determined, but they are just repeating words they read somewhere else. I don't think any serious resveratrol researchers consider its actions to be due to its mild antioxidant effects; they are seen as receptor-mediated.

I think that Baati did clearly show an antioxidant postponing death from old age. Rats accrue aging damage faster than humans, and die of many of the same diseases of aging that humans die of. So we don't need at least one study, we have that. What we need are a few more to confirm or deny the observations of Baati.