48 replies to this topic

[Logic]

Apparently combining D-Ribose and L-Cysteine protects the Cysteine during digestion and delivers more to the cells, resulting in 300% higher liver glutathione levels!?
Much better than NAC!?
http://aiowithac-11....with-riboceine/

Here’s a link to how it was discovered:
http://blog.maxgxl.com/?p=13090

Here’s a link to published research:
http://globalmaxvisi...e.RiboceinePage

This sounds very interesting for general health, youthfulness and anti grey hair.
Is this all its cut out to be???

[pamojja]

Sorry for not having the time now to read through all the links. But would taking D-Ribose and L-Cysteine individually together could give the same results?

[Logic]

I dont know pamojja.
I'm hoping the more educated people here will comment.

[GetMaxed]

Taking D-Ribose and L-Cysteine seperately at the same time won't have the same benefit. The Cysteine will be quickly oxidised in the digestive tract. The benefit comes when the Ribose is attached to the Cysteine, which protects the sulfhydryl group. The compound is taken up intact inside the cell where it then seperates, providing cysteine for glutathione production and Ribose for ATP production.

The creator of the compound, Dr Nagasawa, is a leading medicinal chemist in the field of glutathione chemistry and delivery
- Senior Editor of the Journal of Medicinal Chemistry for 32 years
- Created the new 3-minute cyanide poisoning antidote for the US Department of Defense
- Senior Research Scientist for the Veterans Administration - where he first created the compound to raise glutathione in alcoholic Vietnam war veterans. Many compounds were tested to attach to the Cystine to protect it. Ribose ended up being the most effective one.

Only about a year or two ago has it been commercially available, up until then there has been 20 published papers on it on PubMed.gov

There is an interesting interview with his son Scott, who holds a Doctorate of Pharmacy, on the background of RiboCeine development at http://www.getmaxed....wa-on-riboceine

[Logic]

Thx GetMaxed

So RiboCeine is the best way of increasing glutathione levels...?
Nice site btw.

[malden]

Spending so much money on it is a bit crazy it looks you pay more for the fancy label than the product itself.. if you can buy just NAC selenium en sylimarin for just a few bucs...

[GetMaxed]

Thanks Logic I've been looking into glutathione for a few years now and RiboCeine is the most effective compound for raising glutathione that's readily available. I'm just an arm chair biochemist though, Dr Nagasawa was on to this 25 years ago, even before glutathione was big in the scientific community. Then there's all the medical advisory board members (http://www.getmaxed....-advisory-board) who've come on board on the strength of it.

malden, RiboCeine isn't the same as NAC. Even molecules which are Isomers do not necessarily share similar properties. It's a different moiety, a monosaccharide, attached to a different position on the Cysteine (on the sulphydryl group).

One study on PubMed showed liver cells in RiboCeine at a concentration of 1.0mM raised GSH levels ~70% and NAC at a concentration 2.5mM (ie 2.5x times that of the RiboCeine) raised GSH levels only 30%
Then there's the issue of bioavailability through the digestive tract.

Originally Max was founded on a patented NAC based forumlation with impressive clinical trials which were presented at the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine conference in 2008. I used to take that along with many other people. When the RiboCeine came long 125mg's of that was getting about the same results as the NAC formulation with the works (ALA, Vit C, Millk Thistle etc etc). Now with the Cellgevity product it's a whole new ball game, the NAC doesn't come close.

[numbered]

well we cannot be sure of how close nac comes . If you have any available study comparing Nac and riboceine dosages , plasma concentrations and corresponding glutathione levels it would be nice but as it stands now , Nac is much cheaper . I mean you mention concentrations of 1mM of riboceine . What dosage produces that? How about 2.5nm of Nac? what dosage of Nac corresponds to this? Someone could buy two months worth of high dose Nac , milk thistle , theanine and soy isoflavones and play less than a bottle of the riboceine plus herbs mix .

[pamojja]

Taking D-Ribose and L-Cysteine seperately at the same time won't have the same benefit. The Cysteine will be quickly oxidised in the digestive tract. The benefit comes when the Ribose is attached to the Cysteine, which protects the sulfhydryl group. The compound is taken up intact inside the cell where it then seperates, providing cysteine for glutathione production and Ribose for ATP production.

That's why usually NAC is preferred to plain Cysteine, It seems with the only exception of Durk Pearson & Sandy Shaw:

Glutathione: New Insights into Its Key Role in Regulation of Oxidative Stress and Age-Associated Inflammation (excerpt)

... We get our cysteine from our Root Food II™, a supplement we originally designed to support hair growth, which is highly dependent upon cysteine supplies. Each capsule contains 175 mg of cysteine (for comparison, the best food source is eggs, which contain an average of about 250 mg of cysteine per egg). Sandy takes 2 capsules four times a day (about the amount found in 5.6 eggs), while Durk takes 4 capsules four times a day (the equivalent of about 11 eggs, but without all the fat and cholesterol). Caution: To avoid the possibility of formation of cystine stones by oxidation of cysteine, cysteine should be taken with vitamin C in a ratio of 2:1 vitamin C to cysteine (as it is in our Root Food II).

Anyone familiar with the background of Pearson and Shaw and on which grounds they believe that just double the amount of simoultanious ascorbic acid would avoid Cysteine oxidation? (in that article no references for this claim are given)

Why We Choose Cysteine Rather Than N-Acetylcysteine

N-acetylcysteine (NAC) is a potent nonphysiological (i.e., it is not found naturally in the body) precursor of GSH that increases GSH levels by donating cysteine. The problem with NAC is that, as reported in many papers, it is such a powerful antioxidant that it can inhibit reactive oxygen species (ROS) signaling that is a necessary part of many normal chemical pathways. Hence, we have been very reluctant to use it, at least as an everyday supplement. For example, one recent paper⁸ reported that NAC interfered with the ROS (reactive oxygen species) signaling pathway by which erythropoietin stimulates the creation of red blood cells. This was in a study of erythropoietin-induced differentiation of erythroid progenitors derived from mouse fetal liver. Treatment with another potent antioxidant, pyrrolidine dithiocarbamate (PDTC), also caused the attenuation of expression of TER119 (an erythroid-specific antigen). The authors conclude, “The results suggest reactive oxygen species are involved in Epo [erythropoietin]-mediated erythroid differentiation.” In fact, this may have happened to one of us (Sandy), who was taking N-acetylcysteine (but no longer does). Upon having her regular lab tests during her NAC supplementation period, she discovered that her red blood cell levels had declined to half of their previous amount.

[GetMaxed]

HI numbered, here's a couple bits on bioavailability. I'll have to have another look for direct comparison to NAC and RibCys. The links to articles about the 300% are stated in the patent here (see Table 1)

There is evidence in humans that administration of N-acetylcysteine will reverse or prevent acetaminophen-induced liver injury, but it does not always antagonize kidney injury (Davenport & Finn 1988). Unlike N-acetylcysteine, Ribose Cysteine is a cysteine prodrug that antagonized acetaminophen-induced target organ injury in both liver and kidney (Roberts et al. 1992; Lucas et al. 2000).

source: http://onlinelibrary...pto_96613.x/pdf

RibCys Elevates GSH in Heart and Muscle Tissue

[0030] As reported by J. C. Roberts et al., Toxicol. Lett., 59, 245 (1991), RibCys successfully elevated glutathione (GSH) levels in numerous organs of tumor-bearing CDF1 mice. GSH content was assayed 1, 2, 4, 8 and 16 h after RibCys administration (8 mmol/kg, i.p.); various organs achieved maximal GSH content at different time points. GSH in the liver was elevated 1.5-fold compared to untreated controls at the 16-h time point. Kidney GSH also was maximal at 16 h and achieved 1.6-times control values. GSH in muscle achieved 2.5 times the levels in control animals, while the bladder was elevated 2.1-fold, and the heart 1.8-fold. Other tissues tested (spleen, pancreas, lung) showed a 1.1 - to 1.2-fold increase in GSH content. GSH in implanted L1210 tumors was also elevated only 1.2-fold.

As for the herbs as you say in the Cellgevity mix, are you familiar with Nrf2?

pamojja, as for supplementing directly with cystine in the article Biodistribution of [35S]-cysteine and cysteine prodrugs: potential impact on chemoprotection strategies it says "Supplying the critical precursor for GSH, L-Cystine, is a logical approach, but cysteine can be toxic and mutagenic at protective levels" referencing these two articles:
Neurotoxicity of cysteine: interaction with glutamate.
Mutagenicity of cysteine and penicillamine and its enantiomeric selectivity

[pamojja]

pamojja, as for supplementing directly with cystine in the article Biodistribution of [35S]-cysteine and cysteine prodrugs: potential impact on chemoprotection strategies it says "Supplying the critical precursor for GSH, L-Cystine, is a logical approach, but cysteine can be toxic and mutagenic at protective levels"

Doesn't tell a thing if cystine's oxidation would be prevented by double the dose of ascorbic acid. Or does it?

[GetMaxed]

I imagine it would have some benefit. The MaxGXL N-AcetylCysteine formula had 250mg of Vitamin C with 375mg of N-AcetylCystine to assit with absorbtion and recycle GSH. I don't of any clinicals (not saying there isn't any) which look into cysteine bioavailability and toxicity in conjunction with Vit C

Edited by GetMaxed, 06 August 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[dear mrclock]

i was reading how cystein is not absorbed by the body and needs to be in other forms (like acetyl one mention), and i was wondering if cysteine is amino acid thats present in all protein rich food, does it meant its pointless to eat protein rich food to obtain cysteine if required when it is not absorbed well at all ?

also i was looking for other gluthatione inducing compounds and i found this; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebselen

can this be as good as NAC or the newly mentioned RiboCeine ?

[GetMaxed]

Free Cysteine is rapidly autoxidised to cystine (2 Cysteine's joined at the sulfur atoms) which is then transported into the cell. Cystine is taken up via the system x_c^- transporter into the cell where it can be used for GSH synthesis. Glutamate competes with cystine in this transporter.

There is a number of metablic pathways which covert between different sulfur containing compounds. eg the amino acid methinone can be converted to cysteine by the transsulfuration pathway, which requires b12 etc. Sulfur I think the 4th most abuntant element in the body, so it has a lot of uses, glutathione is one speical one, so it's good to have it in your diet.

However it appears that to really boost glutathione levels you need a pro-drug of cysteine (or glutathione) See www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/15/3/1242/pdf for more research in this area.

Ebselen is similar to glutathione peroxidase, which is an enzyme that glutathione requires to neutralise certain reactive oxygen species and reduce lipid hydroperoxides. The key component of these enzyemes is Selenium.

Edited by GetMaxed, 08 August 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[dear mrclock]

getmaxed i got a bit lost. so cysteine from protein is still absorbed as cystine and then transported in the cells. im not sure what affect that has if you take it free form. glutamate competes with cystine ? so basically w/e you eat protein rich foods glutamate is going to override cysteine and cysteine is deemed useless ?

what can you consume that contains sulfur in order to boost gluthatione ?

also i found this wiki too just yesterday; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glisodin
is this better to take than other gluthatione boosters ??

[GetMaxed]

You've got the key points, it gets pretty complex when you start looking at all the possible interactions. Glutamate can come from MSG, aspartame, inflammatory states, and protein rich food too. It's not unusual, there's lots of vitamins/minerals which compete with each other for absorbtion.

Dairy, meat, garlic, onions are some good sources of sulfur.

One of the first marketed glutathione boosters was a high quality whey protein called Immunocal. The human clincals on that (http://www.nutrition...es_body.htm#a19) showed an increase in lymphocyte (white blood cell) GSH of ~35% while the NAC based MaxGXL formula showed in the human clinical trial an increase in lymphocyte GSH of ~276% (http://www.getmaxed....GXLAbstract.pdf). So there is a big difference between supplementing with high cysteine/sulfur foods and with cysteine pro-drugs.

Looking at the wikipedia page Glisodin contains the anti-oxidant enzyme Super Oxide Dismutase (SOD) which is produced by the body. An alternative way to boost it would be to take foods/supplements which are Nrf2 activators. These increase the production of a wide range of antioxidant and detoxification enzymes, the enzymes which synthesize glutathione and more. The best known/most studied ones are sulforaphane, which is highest in brocolli sprouts, and curcumin, the yellow pigment in tumeric.

These plant extracts which are Nrf2 activators have been shown to boost glutathione levels by increasing the enzymes which create glutathione. You'll notice the Cellgevity product (http://www.getmaxed.net/max-cellgevity) has these in them, combined with the RiboCeine, so you have both the increased cysteine and enzymes for glutatione.

[dear mrclock]

Getmaxed are you biochemistry educated ? or do you just readon books on it ? i like how you get into detail. good infos =)

was just wondering tho, do you work for the company that produces cellgevity product ? maybe part of their team when it comes to biochemistry knowledge ?

[GetMaxed]

Thanks mrclock, I don't have any university education in the area, I did engineering/physics/software. I've basically learnt from reading a lot. I've spent many of hours on www.PubMed.gov and other sites reading and learning. I don't work for Max International, I'm just a distributor with them. Their science team is world class, especially Dr Herbert Nagasawa.

I find it all pretty interesting, plus it gives me the confidence for the business side, which is great way to earn some extra income getting this product technology out there. We're seeing lots of high profile athletes and doctors coming on board on the basis of the science, and the results with the products. Feel free to contact me through my blog too.

[curious_sle]

Hm, the multi level marketing makes it look like so much spam :-(

[GetMaxed]

Doing my bit to keep it to the facts curious_sle , I've written up a bit more at http://www.getmaxed.net/riboceine

[hav]

HI numbered, here's a couple bits on bioavailability. I'll have to have another look for direct comparison to NAC and RibCys. The links to articles about the 300% are stated in the patent here (see Table 1)

I'm probably missing something but the 300% claim seems at odds at what Table 1 and the surrounding text in the patent says. It indicates a 1.7x increase for RibCys compared to a 1.3x increase for NAC. I also note that in the example given in the patent application that results were obtained in a petrie dish after incubation of the test rat's liver together with the RibCys and NAC. Makes me wonder how they obtained their data on humans. There was some interest in an unrelated thread on what tests might be available to measure our own glutathion levels. Not just the absolute levels but also the the ratio of oxidized to reduced glutathione...

Howard

Attached Files

•  RibCys.jpg   220.45KB   10 downloads

[GetMaxed]

Hi Howard,
Thanks the comments, good to see you have looked into the data The concentration of NAC required for the 1.3x increase is 2.5mmol, which the RibCys has a 1.7x increase with only a 1mmol concentration. So a comparable concentration would likely produce a bigger difference in the increase. The 300% increase statement is about the liver cell tests.

The ratio of oxidized to reduced glutathione is an important point. You can see the graphed results of another RibCys study right here with U373 cells and mouse astrocytes incubated in varying RibCys concentrations where the GSH/GSSG ratio's improve over time.

The human trials with the RiboCeine based Cellgevity product are still ongoing, I'm looking forward to seeing the results, given the human clinical data from Max's first NAC based formula and the faster/better real world results we're seeing with Cellgveity formulation

Dan

[dear mrclock]

still quite expensive

[Werper]

So does cellgevity bypass the concerns that N.A.C has regarding pulmonary issues? Also came across this thread (of course after I ordered some) http://scam.com/show...d.php?p=1181842

[hav]

I had the same concern about NAC but used it in the past but at much lower dosages (100 mg/day) cycled on and off weekly for a totally unrelated purpose... to increase the bioavailability of Astragalus. But ultimately I dropped it in favor of piperine.

My interest here is also unrelated to the subject... although I do take silymarin and a bupleurum extract to promote liver health and cleansing. My interest is in were to get glutathione testing. My thought was that whatever documented support existing for the claims in this thread might indicate what testing facility they used. Unfortunately, web sites advocating this company's products pointed to US labs that either had their licenses revoked or no longer did glutathione-level testing. For instance, here's a quote from a web site like that :

TESTING GLUTATHIONE

It is a good idea to measure the glutathione level before starting to try to build glutathione to see if it is low, and then, if it is low, to measure again after trying to build it for a few months, to see how your approach is working. There are several ways to do this. Probably the cheapest is to measure the red blood cell glutathione. Two labs that offer this test are Immunosciences Lab and Amscot Medical Labs. Great Smokies Diagnostic Lab offers an assessment of the glutathione detoxification pathway in its Comprehensive Detox panel.

I did find references to Dr. Robert Keller who seems to be involved with the Max company who apparently has developed his own inexpensive glutathione test but no details or availability. He's apparently keeping it to himself. Makes me wonder if his test had anything to do with the fate of Immunosciences Lab and Amscot Medical Labs.

Similarly, I came up empty searching PubMed for published peer-reviewed studies by anyone including Dr. Robert Keller that might support claims about this company's products. I did stumble across an apparently related unpublished study by Dr. Robert Keller on a product called MaxGXL on this web site. I have no way of determining if the document is genuine but the site appears to be sponsored by the manufacturer. In any event it did contain a reference to a lab in the UK that in fact does various glutathione tests: Oxford Biomedical Research. I'll attach the paper so others more experienced than I might comment on its merits.

Howard

Attached Files

•  maxgxl-study.pdf   1.06MB   8 downloads

Edited by hav, 20 August 2012 - 12:53 AM.

[GetMaxed]

Werper, I haven't looked too much into the pulmonary issue discussed. An article is on it here for those interested. The comment on it sums up my thoughts (ie should be taken with Vit C). Also it says "The next step is to determine a threshold past which antioxidant use becomes detrimental to heart or lung function". Like many things benifits and toxicity are dose dependant, just like minerals such as selenium. Without the same study being done I couldn't say if the Cellgevity/RiboCeine would have a similar result or not. Google NAC and pulmonary and you'll see lots of cases where it's used to treat pulmonary issues too.

Howard, that is the MaxGXL study. Unfortunately the study was never published in a journal. Not that (the late) Dr Keller wasn't up to that, he had over 100 published articles to his name and served on the scientific review panels for the National Institutes of Health and the Veterans Administration. The study results were accepted to be presented at the 2008 American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine conference.

[Matt79]

I've been looking into glutathione for a few years now and RiboCeine is the most effective compound for raising glutathione that's readily available.

I'm rather surprised no-one has mentioned liposomal glutathione. Liposomes can significantly increase the bioavailability of the active.

eg

http://www.essentialgsh.com/
http://www.vrp.com/p...cal-Glutathione

Edited by Matt79, 04 September 2012 - 09:33 AM.

[GetMaxed]

Lipsomal increase the bioavailability through the digestive tract, but it has the same issue as IV glutathione of intra-cellular availability. It providing the whole glutathione molecule which can't cross the cell membrane of the majority of cells. So it help raise plasma levels, which is still a good thing, but not intra-cellular levels which are key.

NAC, RiboCeine and other experimental cysteine pro-drugs deliver cysteine inside the cell so the body can easilly synthesize it's own intra-cellular glutathione.

[smithx]

What are the pulmonary or other issues regarding NAC?

I've been taking 600mg/day of time released NAC a day because of a recent study which indicated that it helps curtail damage caused by long term antibiotic use. What other problems could I be causing for myself by taking the NAC?

So does cellgevity bypass the concerns that N.A.C has regarding pulmonary issues? Also came across this thread (of course after I ordered some) http://scam.com/show...d.php?p=1181842

[DbCooper]

Lipsomal increase the bioavailability through the digestive tract, but it has the same issue as IV glutathione of intra-cellular availability. It providing the whole glutathione molecule which can't cross the cell membrane of the majority of cells. So it help raise plasma levels, which is still a good thing, but not intra-cellular levels which are key.

NAC, RiboCeine and other experimental cysteine pro-drugs deliver cysteine inside the cell so the body can easilly synthesize it's own intra-cellular glutathione.

In order to make it from the digestive track to where it is being measured by plasma, it has to be getting absorbed by cells. Otherwise, it would simply pass through the digestive track as waste. Also, how are you measuring "intra cellular absorption?"

Lastly, just because I give a body all of the raw materials to produce a 300% increase in testosterone, doesn't mean my body will produce 300% more testosterone, as it has checks and balances to protect homeostasis. IV Glutathione is wildly popular in the Philippines currently, as one of the side effects of increased Glutathione is skin whitening.