89 replies to this topic

[maxwatt]

We now have several reports of increased strength manifested in more reps with greater weight, occuring very shortly after beginning C60 supplementation.

A putative mechanism of C60 action is improving mitochondrial function by limiting ROS damage by virtue of its anti-oxidant effect when it takes up residence in the mitochondrial membrane. This may happen, but I do not believe it would account for the gain in strength being reported: first, lifting is not an aerobic activity. It can be accomplished with fast-twitch muscles that have few if any mitochondria, and it occurs rapidly enough that (aerobic) mitochondrial function shouldn't be involved. Second, strength depends on size and number of muscle fibers. I do not think these could increase significantly in the short time in which gains were reported.

This could be a placebo effect, but the degree of improvement reported casts doubt on that to my mind.

There is a training effect seen in cycling, where greater strength is achieved through training, enabling muscle fibers to fire together, so it is possible to deliver more power by recruiting the muscle fibers more efficiently. I suppose it is possible C60 is improving the coordination between fibers without increasing their number or individual strength, though I do not know of a mechanism to explain such an effect.

Any other insights into what may be going on here?

[tintinet]

No idea.

I but I really haven't experienced these effects. I train daily (resistance alternated with cardiovascular), and I haven't noticed sudden dramatic gains in either area. I have seen improvement in both areas, but it's been a relatively gradual change, one I could just attribute to normal training effect.

[Junk Master]

Hydrated fullerenes have a protective effect on the reproductive function of diabetic rats--

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21163323

Maybe the reduction in oxidative stress helps reverse age related testicular function decline?

I felt an immediate difference, but it didn't seem to be a maximal strength gain, just a three rep increase and the sort of feeling you get when your muscles are fresh and not overtrained.

So far, with my running endurance, I feel I'm able to recover more quickly and have less muscle soreness, and a slightly higher "threshold" pace.

[niner]

It's at least conceivable that C60 makes existing mitochondria work better by serving as an electron shuttle, in the manner of MB. Or, maybe the effect isn't enhancement of strength, but is instead having an effect on pain pathways. For example, if there were a radical mediated condition that normally signalled when we are at our limit, and C60 interfered with that, we would feel as though we could lift more. Until we hurt ourselves, at least. I really don't know; these are just hypotheses. There's a lot of basic biochemical work that needs to be done here.

[maxwatt]

...There's a lot of basic biochemical work that needs to be done here.

For sure.

[Turnbuckle]

first, lifting is not an aerobic activity. It can be accomplished with fast-twitch muscles that have few if any mitochondria, and it occurs rapidly enough that (aerobic) mitochondrial function shouldn't be involved.

While it can be accomplished with only one type of muscle fiber, don't you think all muscle fibers would be involved to some degree, and so improving even one of them would improve the results overall? And even if they could be isolated, I really doubt that anyone reporting results on fullerenes has lifted weights in such a way as do this.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 01 August 2012 - 02:47 AM.

[maxwatt]

The slow twitch muscles can be involved, recruited to work with the fast twitch fibers, but they are not responsible for explosive power -- too slow, not enough ATP-- so their contribution is less, and even when they do this sort of work, the mitochondria are minimally involved. If your reps are taking more than 12 seconds, then improved mitochondrial function could be increasingly involved.

Did you try increasing the weight, did that ability improve too? Or did you just get more reps out of it?

[Turnbuckle]

I tend to do five reps and then increase the weight, then another five, etc., until I can't lift it. Ten years ago I could lift the entire stack of weights on half the Nautilus machines, but after statins I was down to 20 to 35% on most machines and was stuck there. Now after 300 mg fullerenes over 3 months, I'm at 30 to 50% on most, working out 3 times a week as before. The effect on running was much greater and I got up to 4 miles (from essentially nothing) before injuring a ligament over my hip three weeks ago, which has been very slow to heal. Jumping over tree trunks was not a good idea.

[maxwatt]

Trochanteric bursitis sucks.I hope it's just the tendon.

[Turnbuckle]

Trochanteric bursitis sucks.I hope it's just the tendon.

It feels like the tensor fasciae latae, where it attaches to the pelvis. And once I'd injured it I continued to run another two miles thinking I could run it off. This is the arrogance of C60.

[platypus]

For ligament healing you might want to try a high-enough dose of glucosamine & chondroitin. That's at least 1500mg of the former daily for awhile.

[tintinet]

Cissus quadrangularis, maybe

[Hebbeh]

Cissus quadrangularis, maybe

+1

[mikey]

For ligament healing you might want to try a high-enough dose of glucosamine & chondroitin. That's at least 1500mg of the former daily for awhile.

Don't forget hyaluronic acid, which moisturizes that tissue. Of course, as we age, we dry up, so hyaluronic acid is probably the most important of the supplements for this type tissue.

But more to the point, Dr. Frank Shallenberger, a brilliant CAM doctor, created Prolozone therapy, which adds ozone to an injection of dextrose, which irritates the tissue to make it form scarring to repair the tissue.

The reason ligaments, tendons, cartilage don't heal well is because they don't have vascularization. But what does blood deliver? Most importantly oxygen, which stimulates healing factors, growth factors, etc..

So Prolozone donates the third "O" and actually generates new tissue.

Case in point. My father's 70-year old wife had close to bone on bone knees for years, very painful. One Prolozone injection gave 30% pain relief. By the third, spaced about two weeks apart, she has no pain and complete function. She hasn't been scanned but the notion is that there's new cartilage there.

So I had minor articular cartilage erosion in both knees and that's where there was pain, about a 4 on a scale where 10 is excruciating.

The first Prolozone injection killed the pain for four days and then it was intermittent and maybe a 2. The left knee I had three injections spread 10 days apart and it's pain free and the right I had two and it's pain free. I haven't had them scanned to see if the Dr. sees that there's more cartilage there, but that's what's supposed to happen.

I took lots of glucosamine, chondroitin and hyaluronic acid to feed the growth. As well, I rubbed glucosamine and hyaluronic acid gel made for horses (brand is Animal Naturals) into my knees with DMSO to feed the growth and they feel strong now.

This web site has a dr's list of dr's who Dr. Shallenberger trained to do Prolozone. I'm lucky. Of the two in LA, one charges $270 and the other $150, even if he shoots me several times.
http://www.oxygenhea...doctor.com.html

I hope that helps.

[mikey]

For ligament healing you might want to try a high-enough dose of glucosamine & chondroitin. That's at least 1500mg of the former daily for awhile.

Actually, that's not a high dose. That's what studies showed to work but more works better. I take that and double that and it works better.
Additionally, chondroitin is shown in some studies to work about 60% better than glucosamine and part of what it breaks down into is glucosamine. Dosing optimizes in the 2 gram range.

Adding MSM to it at 2250 mg/day decreased pain 82%, because of its anti-inflammatory effects, in a yet-to-be-published UCLA placebo-controlled trial.

And hyaluronic acid, as I mentioned in the other post, helps moisturize all collagen-rich tissue, Take a lot of it. 500, 1,000 mg/day.
It's just good for you.

[maxwatt]

Caution with prolo-theraby. It is not for every condition. Sacroiliac instabilities can be worsened even in the hands of a skilled practitioner.

[platypus]

Then there is HGH for joint repair. There are quite a few reports now how glucosamine + chondroitin + physiological doses of HGH can even grow back a meniscus in 6 months.

[mitomutant]

A putative mechanism of C60 action is improving mitochondrial function by limiting ROS damage by virtue of its anti-oxidant effect when it takes up residence in the mitochondrial membrane. This may happen, but I do not believe it would account for the gain in strength being reported: first, lifting is not an aerobic activity. It can be accomplished with fast-twitch muscles that have few if any mitochondria, and it occurs rapidly enough that (aerobic) mitochondrial function shouldn't be involved. Second, strength depends on size and number of muscle fibers. I do not think these could increase significantly in the short time in which gains were reported.

In my personal experience there is always some aerobic activity going on even if you lift weights in the low-rep range (3-5). Doing a heavy (>95% 1RM) deadlift triple leaves my heart pumping hard. I equated an increased heart rate to oxygen demand from my muscle tissues.
However, I agree with your observation: Gaining strength by reducing ROS sounds weird. There has to be some direct effect on electron transport in the ETC to see such improvement.

[Logic]

Could this anabolic effect be due increased hormone production due to a general increase in cell health?
A more youthfull level of... everything??

[maxwatt]

Agreed, there is some aerobic with lifting but it is limited such that an aerobic improvement won't make much difference. If it did, lifters would be out running distance. Like you speculate, I thing something is going on with electrons, but I've no good idea what.

As or hormonal changes, I would think they would take more time to have an effect.

[Hebbeh]

I've experienced faster progression of additional reps in lifting....and feel that it is probably multifaceted....probably all of the above....but from how I feel when cranking out a few more reps would lead me to believe it's due to increased efficiency in the ETC.

[Edgar]

I've experienced faster progression of additional reps in lifting....and feel that it is probably multifaceted....probably all of the above....but from how I feel when cranking out a few more reps would lead me to believe it's due to increased efficiency in the ETC.

Something like what's implied here? http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19732042

C60 can certainly transfer electrons.

[Hebbeh]

What I can say is that I feel an increased mind muscle connection....it is as if I can mentally command the muscle to pump out a couple extra reps that my body wouldn't normally be able to accomplish. My nervous system definitely seems to be functioning more efficiently and getting better muscle contraction which I'm thinking is probably from improved ETC. and it's at both ends...I experience both less mental fatigue and less physical fatigue which both translate to higher efficiency and more reps. And remember, I'm 55 and exercise takes a little more effort these days...but C60 has turned the clock back.

[Logan]

An increased mind muscle connection would help me with many things, including getting back to playing my bass guitar. I'm excited to try C60 in olive oil. I'll definitely be reporting my experiences here.

Anyone feel their cognitive function has improved? I would imagine with overall energy increases, a degree of cognitive performance boost has been realized by some.

[stephen_b]

What I can say is that I feel an increased mind muscle connection....it is as if I can mentally command the muscle to pump out a couple extra reps that my body wouldn't normally be able to accomplish.

Maybe you are overriding the governor.

[tintinet]

I think the only dramatic thing I've noticed, so far, is that my beard growth seems to have increased substantially. I use an electric razor, and while I used to be able shave once a day easily, it's become difficult to cut unless I shave more frequently. My scalp hair also seems to growing rapidly, but I find that more difficult to assess objectively.

[mitomutant]

Agreed, there is some aerobic with lifting but it is limited such that an aerobic improvement won't make much difference. If it did, lifters would be out running distance. Like you speculate, I thing something is going on with electrons, but I've no good idea what.

As or hormonal changes, I would think they would take more time to have an effect.

Good reference

results indicated a relative aerobic — anaerobic energy system contribution (based on AOD measures) of 21%–79% and 25–75% for males and females respectively (9%–91% and 11%–89% based on La/Pcr measures; p<0.05 for both genders for 100-m from AOD estimates). For the 200-m, a 28%–72% and 33%–67% contribution for male and female athletes was estimated (21%–79% and 22%–78% based on La/PCr measures; NS from AOD estimates)

This is not lifting, but for such a short and explosive activity the aerobic system is quite involved. But again, reducing ROS - now we can agree that there is some ROS produced while lifting weights - does not quite fit. There has to be a direct effect on electrons.

[mitomutant]

It's at least conceivable that C60 makes existing mitochondria work better by serving as an electron shuttle, in the manner of MB. Or, maybe the effect isn't enhancement of strength, but is instead having an effect on pain pathways. For example, if there were a radical mediated condition that normally signalled when we are at our limit, and C60 interfered with that, we would feel as though we could lift more. Until we hurt ourselves, at least. I really don't know; these are just hypotheses. There's a lot of basic biochemical work that needs to be done here.

ROS seems to be the starting point that eventually leads to muscular failure in a weight lifting set. In this context, squeezing a few more reps could be a direct C60 effect via ROS reduction.

Maybe we should refine the term "strength gain" to start with.
- More weight is not a probable C60 effect as this would imply a better ETC (unless C60 is also an electron shuttler).
- More reps could be due to C60 via ROS reduction

I will make sure to report these differences when testing PQQ (already started), MB and C60 on myself.

[Edgar]

From my experience, I would describe it as a slower, more gradual build-up of lactic acid. I would even go so far as to say I feel the lactic acid effects sooner, but they take longer building up to the point that I have to discontinue the exercise. Something seems to be mediating the concentration of hydrogen ion waste.

[Hebbeh]

From my experience, I would describe it as a slower, more gradual build-up of lactic acid. I would even go so far as to say I feel the lactic acid effects sooner, but they take longer building up to the point that I have to discontinue the exercise. Something seems to be mediating the concentration of hydrogen ion waste.

It is a myth that lactic acid causes muscle failure. Current research indicates that lactic acid is an intermediary product of glycogen and oxygen and is an actual source of fuel for muscle contraction...and that training allows muscles to better utilize lactic acid as an energy source.

A quick explanation but there is much current info out there about the role of lactic acid now:

http://www.livestron...c-acid-muscles/

We now know that lactic acid, or lactate, is the body's way of finding more energy during intense activity. Your body produces lactic acid from glucose, and then burns it as a fuel. While trainers have encouraged athletes to avoid lactic acid build up, high levels of activity actually strengthen the muscles' ability to adapt to this process and absorb lactic acid more efficiently. As the energy factories in the muscles get stronger over time, the athlete can train longer and harder.

Read more: http://www.livestron.../#ixzz22hbtH0ZU