371 replies to this topic

[marcobjj]

maybe not the right thread to ask this, but anywhere on this forum were I can find out about reliable sources to purchase c60 online?

[Turnbuckle]

SES Research. If you want it mixed in EVOO, there are at least 3 small companies selling it.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 06 February 2013 - 08:57 PM.

[marcobjj]

thanks Turnbuckle!!

[rashlan]

When using a mortar and pestle, is it actually possible to damage the c60 molecule molecule if applying too much pressure? how much pressure would it take to disrupt the molecule?

[niner]

When using a mortar and pestle, is it actually possible to damage the c60 molecule molecule if applying too much pressure? how much pressure would it take to disrupt the molecule?

No, you can't hurt the molecule that way. It's possible to get chemistry to happen through the application of pressure, but it would require specialized equipment. The pressures needed would be extremely high, in the Mbar range.

[mikeinnaples]

A few things regarding my mixture attempts so far:

1. Stainless steel M&P was quite messy. I was hoping for better results than what people were reporting with other materials, but it seemed comparable. It stuck to everything and was quite difficult to 'wash' even with the large amount of EVOO I set aside for that purpose.

2. Dividing the C60 evenly into thirds for my 3 500ml bottles proved to be difficult. M&P, funnel, and container I used for the scale all had residue even after 'washing'. To be honest, I am not sure how much I may have 'lost' due to all of this. I also cannot be reasonably sure that my three bottles are the same ration because of how much stuck to the funnel.

What I am thinking of doing is waiting for most visible C60 clumps floating around to disappear, pour all three bottles together, mix them lightly in a blender, and redistribute to the three bottles. This is the only way I can be sure that my three bottles contain the 'same' ratio. Thoughts?

[niner]

I think blending the three bottles is a good idea. You probably wouldn't need a blender to mix them; any big container should work, although if there are any large particles that didn't get broken up, the blender might take care of them. Even the large particles will eventually react if you wait long enough. (months, unless you mechanically agitate) In the end, I wasn't sure how much really ended up in the bottle vs stuck to the mortar and various other things. It's probably not as bad as it looks, since a little bit of c60 looks like a lot when it's smeared out. Next time, I might try crushing the c60 between two spoons so there's less surface for it to stick to. Maybe do that over a sheet of glass or some other very smooth nonporous thing that the c60 wouldn't be as likely to stick to.

[mikeinnaples]

Good point about a little looking like a lot when it is smeared.

One thing I noticed is that the bottle that contains the olive oil I used to wash the residue seems to be reacting already. The color is distinctly different than the other two even after this short of a time period. I guess it isn't really unexpected, but it is interesting to me none the less.

[somecallmetim]

That's how I crushed my C60 - I used the side of a knife and crushed the C60 on a piece of glass.

[motorcitykid]

I crushed 65mg of C60 w/ M&P 17 days ago. I mixed it with 80mg of Mcevoy evoo in in a glass bottle. The mixture turned light brown in about 10 hours. I've been shaking the bottle vigorously everyday. It has turned dark brown. When I hold the bottle steady against bright light, it appears as though all of the C60 particles have dissolved, but that's not the case. When I shake the bottle vigorously, a host of undissolved particles appear. There are more dark specs in the oil then there are bubbles in seltzer. What's going on?

Perhaps i should I let all of the undissolved particles settle to the bottom and extract 3./4 off the top. I could either throw the remaining bottom 1/4 away, or mix it with more evoo.

[mikeinnaples]

Same issue with mine, but it has only been a couple of days. Looks dissolved until I shake it.

Also, I went ahead and poured my three 500ml bottles into a blender and ran it for a while on the lowest setting. The mixture rapidly changed colors to a dull brown due to all all the tiny air bubbles. After about 10 minutes of sitting still, the air bubbles dispersed and the mixture returned to its normal color. I did this one more time, let it settle, and split it evenly among the three bottles before the particles had a chance to settle on the bottom.

All three bottles are uniform in color and consistency of particles to the naked eye. Hopefully this will speed up the process some as well without affecting the EVOO too much.

[Turnbuckle]

I've been shaking the bottle vigorously everyday.

People are going through a lot of effort just to avoid buying a magnetic stirrer, and they're getting an oxidized product for their trouble.

[pleb]

Apart from my first bottle i've crushed all of mine and had it turn purple within a few hours and then red after a week and a half to 2 weeks,with only minimal shaking,

[niner]

Apart from my first bottle i've crushed all of mine and had it turn purple within a few hours and then red after a week and a half to 2 weeks,with only minimal shaking,

This is more like my experience. I had very little air in the bottle, didn't shake vigorously or often, so I'm not worried about oxidation. c60 is an antioxidant. I never noticed a purple color, though. I got a nice red color overnight, and it got deeper over the next week or two.

[pleb]

you probably did a better job of crushing it than me :>)

[mikeinnaples]

I've been shaking the bottle vigorously everyday.

People are going through a lot of effort just to avoid buying a magnetic stirrer, and they're getting an oxidized product for their trouble.

Oxygen pickup by EVOO occurs at every stage of creating it all the way from crushing, to bottling, and ultimately transportation. Hell, if you bought a high quality EVOO product from a remote place a few thousand miles away, just think about how much vibrating, shaking, etc. occurred alone in getting it from point A to point B.

What evidence do you have that the magnetic stirrer is significantly better? Are you doing it in an air tight or oxygen free environment? What about the oxygen already introduced to it well before you even received it. How much more oxygen is getting introduced from magnetic stirring vs. shaking a closed bottle. What about the fact that there is C60 in the oil as well? How does that affect the oxidization of the product? I noticed that the Vaughtner product centrifuges it..... maybe she can comment.

Even if the bulk of the oil becomes oxidized, what happens to that actual C60+EVOO molecules? Are they destroyed? Do they turn into some hybrid abberration that will set off a global zombie apocalypse if ingested?

[mikeinnaples]

Apart from my first bottle i've crushed all of mine and had it turn purple within a few hours and then red after a week and a half to 2 weeks,with only minimal shaking,

Sounds like you both did a better job of crushing than me. I only noticed color change in one bottle relatively quickly.

[pleb]

i agree most of ours comes in lorries from Italy or Greece and that must give them a good shake up,

[pleb]

Apart from my first bottle i've crushed all of mine and had it turn purple within a few hours and then red after a week and a half to 2 weeks,with only minimal shaking,

Sounds like you both did a better job of crushing than me. I only noticed color change in one bottle relatively quickly.

the first bottle i didn't crush and that's still in the cupboard and still brown,
the second bottle i crushed and that changed fairly quickly, the third and forth went to my girlfriend and she just looked in the cupboard every day to see if it had changed, which is probably why it took longer than my second, it would seem that some shaking does help, and the fifth to my daughter took about a week and a half to go fully red,

Edited by pleb, 26 February 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

Apart from my first bottle i've crushed all of mine and had it turn purple within a few hours and then red after a week and a half to 2 weeks,with only minimal shaking,

This is more like my experience. I had very little air in the bottle, didn't shake vigorously or often, so I'm not worried about oxidation. c60 is an antioxidant. I never noticed a purple color, though. I got a nice red color overnight, and it got deeper over the next week or two.

From what I read, 1 liter of EVOO can absorb up to 35mg of oxygen before reaching saturation. Fully saturated EVOO increases its peroxide levels by 2.5 units and a good quality EVOO will have about 6 units to start with.

A few things of note:

1. Processing itself is around 4 peroxide units

2. Filling storage containers without oxygen protection causes around 80-85% oxygen saturation. (or roughly 2 peroxide units). If they use nitrogen or something else, this can be reduced all the way down to .15 units. Alot of manufacturers don't do this though because it can affect taste.

3. An empty 500ml bottle containes enough oxygen to saturate EVOO 4x over. How much is added via bottling depends on the process.

4. Typical headspace in a 500ml bottle of EVOO on average can add .2 peroxide units. (and each time you open the bottle which adds air to the bottle adds potential for it to get to the oil)


In other words, what I am saying is: based on what I have read, chances are that the oil we are consuming is most likely near saturation point anyways.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 26 February 2013 - 03:08 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

I've been shaking the bottle vigorously everyday.

People are going through a lot of effort just to avoid buying a magnetic stirrer, and they're getting an oxidized product for their trouble.

Oxygen pickup by EVOO occurs at every stage of creating it all the way from crushing, to bottling, and ultimately transportation. Hell, if you bought a high quality EVOO product from a remote place a few thousand miles away, just think about how much vibrating, shaking, etc. occurred alone in getting it from point A to point B.

What evidence do you have that the magnetic stirrer is significantly better? Are you doing it in an air tight or oxygen free environment? What about the oxygen already introduced to it well before you even received it. How much more oxygen is getting introduced from magnetic stirring vs. shaking a closed bottle. What about the fact that there is C60 in the oil as well? How does that affect the oxidization of the product? I noticed that the Vaughtner product centrifuges it..... maybe she can comment.

Even if the bulk of the oil becomes oxidized, what happens to that actual C60+EVOO molecules? Are they destroyed? Do they turn into some hybrid abberration that will set off a global zombie apocalypse if ingested?

You are rationalizing. The better producers of olive oil process the olives very quickly and use systems to prevent the entrainment of oxygen and then deaerate and pack in dark colored bottles. After I began using a magnetic stirrer, the color of the solution was definitely redder, and nowadays I keep very little in liquid form and freeze the rest.

Someone who'd worked at Luna posted here a while back and said that you would definitely have C60 epoxides forming unless you took care with it. And there's a paper saying the same thing--

When fullerene C60 was dissolved in selected lipids (ethyl oleate, ethyl linoleate, linseed oil and castor oil) the spectrophotometric analysis shows that the oxidation is concentrated to C60 which is converted to an epoxide C60O.

Is this a bad thing? Don't know, but it's different from the rat paper, so you're taking a chance. And if you go by the free-radical TOA, using up any part of C60's scavenging ability before you ever use it can't be a good thing.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 26 February 2013 - 03:53 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

You are rationalizing. The better producers of olive oil process the olives very quickly and use systems to prevent the entrainment of oxygen and then deaerate and pack in dark colored bottles.

Interesting that you think I am rationalizing as I was thinking the same thing about your comment about the magnetic stirrer.

Yes I agree, every quality EVOO producer goes straight from harvesting to processing. This does not, however, change the fact that the actual processing introduces oxygen to the oil. Just about every commerical quantity EVOO producer centrifuges during that process. I would guess that is better than the smaller producers that do a standard press and expose the oil to light and oxygen for significant amounts of time. I read about a third extraction method used by a few producers, but my understanding that it is even worse in regards to oxygenation. Anyways the malaxation step of the process alone introduces oxygen to the oil as it churns away for 30 minutes. Then if they use any heat at all in the process of malaxation or extraction, it increases the oxidization even further. (This is why we shoot for verifiable EVOO that is cold pressed/extracted.)

Also, I am curious as to why you believe that 'better' EVOO producers deaerate the oil. I mean yeah, there are a few processing in a controlled nitrogen environment or other inert gasses like Co2, but what I have read on the subject says that most do not because of how it affects taste and/or it is cost prohibitive especially for the smaller producers.

I know some of the larger producers also process within a sealed environment and take steps to remove air from storage vats as well. This doesn't change the fact that oxygen still is in enough quantity that high quality EVOO averages around 6 peroxide units after production.

Is this a bad thing? Don't know, but it's different from the rat paper, so you you're taking a chance.

Are you sure this is reality? The concern here is oxidation as well as oxygen saturation contributing to it. Do you know the specifics of the production of the EVOO they used and the saturation or peroxide levels? Do you know the production date of the EVOO they used compared to the C60 formulation and use? Was it stored in an oxygen free environment?

Edited by mikeinnaples, 26 February 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[pleb]

I would hazard a guess that they grabbed the bottles from the nearest shelf in the local supermarket,

[Turnbuckle]

Also, I am curious as to why you believe that 'better' EVOO producers deaerate the oil. I mean yeah, there are a few processing in a controlled nitrogen environment or other inert gasses like Co2, but what I have read on the subject says that most do not because of how it affects taste and/or it is cost prohibitive especially for the smaller producers.

We can argue about what is better for taste, but for our C60 purposes (since we don't have lab equipment to test it), a deaerated product would be best. I've tried several brands and some generated quite a bit of gas when vacuum filtered. Some did not. So I use California Ranch because it generated no bubbles and it's sold in a dark bottle at the local grocery. It also performed well in a university test of EVOOs where many oils that claimed to be EV actually weren't.

[mikeinnaples]

We can argue about what is better for taste,

Well not really, I was just stating what I read as to why many don't do it. Not my argument to make.

Isn't the the biggest concern really light anyways? That seems to have the largest effect on breaking down oil.

Anyways, I guess I can see a case for deareating oil after you get it and mix it. (though if freezing for long term would it really matter anyways) How to go about doing that cost effectively for the average joe though...

Edited by mikeinnaples, 26 February 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[motorcitykid]

I've been shaking the bottle vigorously everyday.

People are going through a lot of effort just to avoid buying a magnetic stirrer, and they're getting an oxidized product for their trouble.

The importance of a magnetic stirrer was downplayed by others posting on the subject. I avoided buying one for that reason. Also, I assume they make some sort of noise? I don't want to listen to 14 days of stirring around the clock- I'll need extra C60-oo just to deal with the stress. What would you compare the noise level to on your mag stirreri?

[Turnbuckle]

I've been shaking the bottle vigorously everyday.

People are going through a lot of effort just to avoid buying a magnetic stirrer, and they're getting an oxidized product for their trouble.

The importance of a magnetic stirrer was downplayed by others posting on the subject. I avoided buying one for that reason. Also, I assume they make some sort of noise? I don't want to listen to 14 days of stirring around the clock- I'll need extra C60-oo just to deal with the stress. What would you compare the noise level to on your mag stirreri?

No, it doesn't make any noise. And once the C60 is thoroughly ground, I've found that it takes about three days.

Below is the one I bought, and it's worked fine.

http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B002OSX2Q0

(It comes with a stirring bar.)

Edited by Turnbuckle, 26 February 2013 - 05:25 PM.

[motorcitykid]

I've been shaking the bottle vigorously everyday.

People are going through a lot of effort just to avoid buying a magnetic stirrer, and they're getting an oxidized product for their trouble.

The importance of a magnetic stirrer was downplayed by others posting on the subject. I avoided buying one for that reason. Also, I assume they make some sort of noise? I don't want to listen to 14 days of stirring around the clock- I'll need extra C60-oo just to deal with the stress. What would you compare the noise level to on your mag stirreri?

No, it doesn't make any noise. And once the C60 is thoroughly ground, I've found that it takes about three days.

Below is the one I bought, and it's worked fine.

http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/B002OSX2Q0


Thanks for the info Turnbuckle.

(It comes with a stirring bar.)

[mikeinnaples]

Just using a magnetic stirrer alone is not going to prevent any extra oxidization. The container will need to be free of oxygen and sealed to prevent any from getting in. Also, you will need to do it in a dark area unless your container does the job of keeping the light out.

Edited by mikeinnaples, 26 February 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[motorcitykid]

Just using a magnetic stirrer alone is not going to prevent any extra oxidization. The container will need to be free of oxygen and sealed to prevent any from getting in. Also, you will need to do it in a dark area unless your container does the job of keeping the light out.

Thanks Mike. At this point I'm leaning toward purchasing from a distributor. Too many variables to consider with home prep method. I wonder which of the vendors uses the highest pheonolic evoo in their C60-oo. Do you have any idea?