371 replies to this topic

[tintinet]

Nice info Hebbeh!

Stupid question, but do you take any special precautions handling the c60? I have these visions of sneezing then inhaling a cloud of nano-particles? Also, what scale are you using to divide the gram?

I had a weighmeter digital scale from Ebay that weighs to 10mg. Think I paid $30 or $40 for it a few years back but seems pretty accurate within reason. For what it's worth....says German engineering...but of course made in China. I put a small piece (approx 2"x2") of foil on the scale and tared or zeroed it. I tapped C60 out of the vial onto the foil until the scale read 500 mg. Funneled the C60 off the foil into the first 750ml bottle of EVOO. Repeated with the rest of the C60...and was pleased that the rest also read exactly 500mg...indicating the scale seemed accurate within reason. Splitting a gram and putting 500mg into each 750ml bottle of EVOO should yield 0.667mg/ml which should have no problem dissolving without saturating...which makes me believe filtering is unnecessary. My understanding of the saturation rate is between 0.8 and 0.9mg/ml. I stored the mix at room temp in a dark cabinet and shook vigorously 2-3 times per day for a month before using...and then continued the shaking during the 2 months each bottle will last.

I just received my olive oil and C60 and I about to start mixing. I'm finding it slightly amusing you've taken such care to be precise about this step when everything else about human C60 ingestion seems to be tremendously arbitrary at this point.

[niner]

I'm finding it slightly amusing you've taken such care to be precise about this step when everything else about human C60 ingestion seems to be tremendously arbitrary at this point.

We don't know the optimal dosing strategy, but I don't see any advantage to being sloppy. That would just prevent one from knowing how much one was taking, making it harder to figure out what we should be doing.

[Andrew Dev]

Hi.

I have some question but first...

I think there is really no need to filter anything, they do it mainly to get rid of any external factor like bacteria etc. But at home i think it is unnecessary.

So now i have a question on the dosage.

In the experiment they use 0,8 mg/ml c60 in olive oil and a dose of 4mg per kg, does it mean 4mg/kg of the whole ready mixture or what?

If i buy 1g of c60 and dissolve it in 1250 ml EVOO i will get 0,8mg/ml right? So i'm 80kg, then to maintain 4mg/kg i should take 320 mg daily of... that is the point, of what? i would say the ready mixture, i'm wrong?

Because if i'm not wrong it means its enough for 11 years (1250 ml/320mg)... Can some one help me to understand it correct?

Another problem is, should the dosage for human be the same as rats? And if no, how to calculate it for humans?


And sorry for my English, its not my native language but there aren't better places to discuss c60 in EVOO on the net than this forum. (i mean it)

Edited by Andrew Dev, 25 August 2012 - 06:20 PM.

[tintinet]

I'm finding it slightly amusing you've taken such care to be precise about this step when everything else about human C60 ingestion seems to be tremendously arbitrary at this point.

We don't know the optimal dosing strategy, but I don't see any advantage to being sloppy. That would just prevent one from knowing how much one was taking, making it harder to figure out what we should be doing.

Seriously, people are posting hugely different ranges of dosages here. I don't think a slight variation in concentration is likely to make any difference in determinations of optimal dosing based upon experiences posted on this forum. Not to mention differences in contributor's ages, weights, additional health issues, supplements, etc..

Edited by tintinet, 25 August 2012 - 07:44 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

So now i have a question on the dosage.

In the experiment they use 0,8 mg/ml c60 in olive oil and a dose of 4mg per kg, does it mean 4mg/kg of the whole ready mixture or what?

If i buy 1g of c60 and dissolve it in 1250 ml EVOO i will get 0,8mg/ml right? So i'm 80kg, then to maintain 4mg/kg i should take 320 mg daily of... that is the point, of what? i would say the ready mixture, i'm wrong?

Because if i'm not wrong it means its enough for 11 years (1250 ml/320mg)... Can some one help me to understand it correct?

Another problem is, should the dosage for human be the same as rats? And if no, how to calculate it for humans?


And sorry for my English, its not my native language but there aren't better places to discuss c60 in EVOO on the net than this forum. (i mean it)

The dosage is the amount of C60, not the C60 solution. so if you took 320 mg/day, your gram would last you three days. But no one is taking that much. Most are taking it in a range of 2-20 mg/day. One person is taking more than 100 mg/day, but more than a certain amount seems to have no additional effect. At least from the reports here.

[Turnbuckle]

Has anyone tried an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner to dissolve the C60? Those things seem ridiculously cheap at Amazon.

[Andrew Dev]

so if you took 320 mg/day

No way, i was thinking 320 mg of solution daily, but ok, if it ware 4mg daily as in rats experiment, 1g c60 is enough for 250 days, not bad, very cheap for longer life.

Edited by Andrew Dev, 25 August 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[Hebbeh]

I'm finding it slightly amusing you've taken such care to be precise about this step when everything else about human C60 ingestion seems to be tremendously arbitrary at this point.

We don't know the optimal dosing strategy, but I don't see any advantage to being sloppy. That would just prevent one from knowing how much one was taking, making it harder to figure out what we should be doing.

Seriously, people are posting hugely different ranges of dosages here. I don't think a slight variation in concentration is likely to make any difference in determinations of optimal dosing based upon experiences posted on this forum. Not to mention differences in contributor's ages, weights, additional health issues, supplements, etc..

The problem is that C60 has a relatively low saturation point of around 0.8-0.9 mg/ml. Adding C60 above this point not only won't dissolve into solution but you will have undissolved C60 floating around which we don't know for sure the consequences of but at the least, a waste of expensive C60. And the 0.8-0.9 mg/ml is under the best of conditions with mechanical mixing...if hand shaking, I doubt you will even reach that and thus why I used less. And trying to eyeball it and split a gram of C60...well good luck with that...I seriously doubt anybody would be capable of doing that very accurately (and differences or variations of very small amounts will have a large impact on desired or assumed concentration and corresponding presumed dosing) as a gram of C60 is miniscule to begin with. And like niner said, if you don't know the true concentration, how will you ever figure out any dosing regimen other than well let’s see....I took some C60 today.

Edited by Hebbeh, 25 August 2012 - 08:29 PM.

[Hebbeh]

so if you took 320 mg/day

No way, i was thinking 320 mg of solution daily, but ok, if it ware 4mg daily as in rats experiment, 1g c60 is enough for 250 days, not bad, very cheap for longer life.

The rat study was 4mg of C60 per kg that the rat weighed. If you are going to follow the rat study and you weigh, lets say 70kg, then it would be 4mg x 70kg = 280mg of C60 per day...your gram of C60 will last 3 days.

Edited by Hebbeh, 25 August 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[Hebbeh]

Has anyone tried an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner to dissolve the C60? Those things seem ridiculously cheap at Amazon.

That's my next batch...

http://www.ebay.com/...=item58956784a6

[HappyPhysicist]

Sounds waves travel really well through water but I don't know if they will travel very well through oil. But is is worth a try.

[Hebbeh]

Since the C60 is course does that mean that even the really pure 99.95% stuff will likely weight the same per teaspoon to make an accurate estimate (rather than pouring it out onto a scale paper, etc or other mess). Just wondering if we can get a good rough estimate to the 500-600mg that most would be adding to a liter of olive oil in terms of teaspoons or if that is even possible?

In reality, a gram is a miniscule amount. It isn't measured with any kind of spoon. A teaspoon would likely be 100's of grams. I seriously don't know how anybody could expect to take a gram and split it by eyeballing it.....an itty bitty little pile of C60 that was 300 or 400 or 500 or 600 mg would all look pretty much the same. Scales are like $25 on Amazon or Ebay.

[DeadMeat]

In the experiment they use 0,8 mg/ml c60 in olive oil and a dose of 4mg per kg, does it mean 4mg/kg of the whole ready mixture or what?

The rats got 1.7 mg/kg body weight not 4 mg/kg. Also note that they only got it every day for the first week, then once every week etc. By the way, welcome to longecity!
http://extremelongev...0-Fullerene.pdf

Here we show that oral administration of C60 dissolved in olive oil (0.8 mg/ml) at reiterated doses (1.7 mg/kg of body weight) to rats not
only does not entail chronic toxicity but it almost doubles their lifespan.

[DeadMeat]

Has anyone tried an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner to dissolve the C60? Those things seem ridiculously cheap at Amazon.

That's my next batch...

http://www.ebay.com/...=item58956784a6

Ultrasonification could be interesting. But I'm not sure if that would give the same C60-oo solution. As far as I know, ultrasonification can heat things up quite a bit(locally when the bubbles implode). The reactions and adducts that we possibly get normally may be good/at least not terrible. But what we would get with something like this is unknown.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Sonochemistry

Upon irradiation with high intensity sound or ultrasound, acoustic cavitation usually occurs. Cavitation – the formation, growth, and implosive collapse of bubbles irradiated with sound — is the impetus for sonochemistry and sonoluminescence.[5] Bubble collapse in liquids produces enormous amounts of energy from the conversion of kinetic energy of the liquid motion into heating the contents of the bubble. The compression of the bubbles during cavitation is more rapid than thermal transport, which generates a short-lived localized hot-spot. Experimental results have shown that these bubbles have temperatures around 5000 K, pressures of roughly 1000 atm, and heating and cooling rates above 1010 K/s.[6][7] These cavitations can create extreme physical and chemical conditions in otherwise cold liquids.

With liquids containing solids, similar phenomena may occur with exposure to ultrasound. Once cavitation occurs near an extended solid surface, cavity collapse is nonspherical and drives high-speed jets of liquid to the surface[5]. These jets and associated shock waves can damage the now highly heated surface. Liquid-powder suspensions produce high velocity interparticle collisions. These collisions can change the surface morphology, composition, and reactivity.[8]

Grinding it down and sieving the C60 is the only thing I can think of that could speed up dissolution without changing stuff.

[Hebbeh]

Ultrasonification could be interesting. But I'm not sure if that would give the same C60-oo solution. As far as I know, ultrasonification can heat things up quite a bit(locally when the bubbles implode). The reactions and adducts that we possibly get normally may be good/at least not terrible. But what we would get with something like this is unknown.
http://en.wikipedia....i/Sonochemistry

Upon irradiation with high intensity sound or ultrasound, acoustic cavitation usually occurs. Cavitation – the formation, growth, and implosive collapse of bubbles irradiated with sound — is the impetus for sonochemistry and sonoluminescence.[5] Bubble collapse in liquids produces enormous amounts of energy from the conversion of kinetic energy of the liquid motion into heating the contents of the bubble. The compression of the bubbles during cavitation is more rapid than thermal transport, which generates a short-lived localized hot-spot. Experimental results have shown that these bubbles have temperatures around 5000 K, pressures of roughly 1000 atm, and heating and cooling rates above 1010 K/s.[6][7] These cavitations can create extreme physical and chemical conditions in otherwise cold liquids.

With liquids containing solids, similar phenomena may occur with exposure to ultrasound. Once cavitation occurs near an extended solid surface, cavity collapse is nonspherical and drives high-speed jets of liquid to the surface[5]. These jets and associated shock waves can damage the now highly heated surface. Liquid-powder suspensions produce high velocity interparticle collisions. These collisions can change the surface morphology, composition, and reactivity.[8]

Hmmm....yeah that doesn't sound good. Will have to rethink this. Thanks for postin that.

[JohnD60]

Has anyone tried an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner to dissolve the C60? Those things seem ridiculously cheap at Amazon.

The C60 dissolved pretty well, put that cleaner fluid tastes awful.

[Andrew Dev]

The rats got 1.7 mg/kg body weight not 4 mg/kg. Also note that they only got it every day for the first week, then once every week etc. By the way, welcome to longecity!
http://extremelongev...0-Fullerene.pdf

I can quote 11 times from the very same document that it was 4mg/kg, on the other side 1.7 mg is mentioned twice, in the abstract and as description for Fig. 3

So can you explain this? Every other table, figure, result is linked to 4 mg, hey maybe it's my english.


And back to the dose, thats right 4mg x 80kg daily will sadly only last for 3 days, but if it isn't the same dose as with rats will it have the same results? So whats the proposed daily mg for human? 2mg seems very small, compared to 320 mg even 20 mg look very small, but at the end of the day the result count, so what you think?

By the way, hello longecity.

[Hebbeh]

The rats got 1.7 mg/kg body weight not 4 mg/kg. Also note that they only got it every day for the first week, then once every week etc. By the way, welcome to longecity!
http://extremelongev...0-Fullerene.pdf

I can quote 11 times from the very same document that it was 4mg/kg, on the other side 1.7 mg is mentioned twice, in the abstract and as description for Fig. 3

So can you explain this? Every other table, figure, result is linked to 4 mg, hey maybe it's my english.


And back to the dose, thats right 4mg x 80kg daily will sadly only last for 3 days, but if it isn't the same dose as with rats will it have the same results? So whats the proposed daily mg for human? 2mg seems very small, compared to 320 mg even 20 mg look very small, but at the end of the day the result count, so what you think?

By the way, hello longecity.

I've experimented with 3-9 mg/day and noticed various effects. 4-5mg seems to be the "sweet" spot for me as I didn't notice much additional effect when increasing up to 9mg.

[tintinet]

I've taken from 1.5 to 9 mg/day and I've never noticed any effects at any dose.

Edited by tintinet, 26 August 2012 - 02:36 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

The rats got 1.7 mg/kg body weight not 4 mg/kg. Also note that they only got it every day for the first week, then once every week etc. By the way, welcome to longecity!
http://extremelongev...0-Fullerene.pdf

I can quote 11 times from the very same document that it was 4mg/kg, on the other side 1.7 mg is mentioned twice, in the abstract and as description for Fig. 3

So can you explain this? Every other table, figure, result is linked to 4 mg, hey maybe it's my english.


And back to the dose, thats right 4mg x 80kg daily will sadly only last for 3 days, but if it isn't the same dose as with rats will it have the same results? So whats the proposed daily mg for human? 2mg seems very small, compared to 320 mg even 20 mg look very small, but at the end of the day the result count, so what you think?

By the way, hello longecity.

a b s t r a c t
Countless studies showed that [60]fullerene (C60) and derivatives could have many potential biomedical
applications. However, while several independent research groups showed that C60 has no acute or subacute
toxicity in various experimental models, more than 25 years after its discovery the in vivo fate and
the chronic effects of this fullerene remain unknown. If the potential of C60 and derivatives in the
biomedical field have to be fulfilled these issues must be addressed. Here we show that oral administration
of C60 dissolved in olive oil (0.8 mg/ml) at reiterated doses (1.7 mg/kg of body weight) to rats not
only does not entail chronic toxicity but it almost doubles their lifespan. The effects of C60-olive oil
solutions in an experimental model of CCl4 intoxication in rat strongly suggest that the effect on lifespan
is mainly due to the attenuation of age-associated increases in oxidative stress. Pharmacokinetic studies
show that dissolved C60 is absorbed by the gastro-intestinal tract and eliminated in a few tens of hours.
These results of importance in the fields of medicine and toxicology should open the way for the many
possible -and waited for- biomedical applications of C60 including cancer therapy, neurodegenerative
disorders, and ageing.

Fig. 3. Animal survival and growth. Chronic effects of C60 in rats. (a) Survival and (b)
growth of surviving animals, after treatment (oral gavages) at reiterated doses (1.7 mg/
kg bw) with water, olive-oil or C60-olive oil.

These were the rats that were allowed to live. The others, with the higher dose, were sacrificed for liver studies, etc.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 26 August 2012 - 03:16 AM.

[DeadMeat]

I have a centrifuge but I don't use it, as the .22 micron filtering seems sufficient.

I have a strong suspicion that none of us have a fast enough centrifuge to pull down particles smaller than 0.22 microns. Olive oil has a very high viscosity, and those are very small particles. Does anyone have any data on the number of g's needed for a separation like this? The density differences are fairly large, so it's probably not crazy high, but I just "have a feeling" that it's going to take more like tens of thousands of g's to do it in a reasonable time frame.

Then there's the question of the health effects of ingestion of very small quantities of solid C60 in oive oil. From what I've seen, it just gets eliminated in feces without causing any problems. Considering all this, I have no plans to centrifuge my C60-oo.

Somebody check this, but from stokes law we can calculate/estimate the terminal velocity.

terminalvelocity = ((2/9)*(densitysparticle - densityoliveoil)*g*r^2)/viscosityoliveoil

with as constants:
r = 0.11*10^-6 m
g = 9.8 m/s2
densityoliveoil = 860 kg/m3
densitysparticle = 1720 kg/m3
viscosityoliveoil = 84*10^-3 Pa s

Gives a velocity of 2.7*10^-10 m/s. So at normal gravity a length of 10 cm would take our brave hypothetic little C60 particle 117 years. If you want it in an hour you would need a million g, in a day 43000 g etc. So its probably not really worth it yea.

Edited by DeadMeat, 26 August 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[HHM]

Has anyone tried an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner to dissolve the C60? Those things seem ridiculously cheap at Amazon.

I have and it seems to be quite effective. I tried to add 5 ml of C60oo solution (concentration 0.8g/L) in 150ml melted coco grease (30 degrees celsius). The C6oo solution had a brownish/redish color. The melted coco grease was clear. Initial stirring with a spoon left no trace of the c60oo color i.e. the coco grease - C60oo mix was clear. However after 5 minutes in the cleaner the color started to change towards purple. I gues that it means that some c60 agglomerates were broken and dissolved in the copco grease. One strange thing happend though. The coco grease-C6ooo mixture took very long time to solidify - 3 days or so - and it never became as solid as the initial coco grease. Maybe the Ultra Sonics changed the structure of the fat chains or maybe its just due to the mixture with oo. By the way - sonification cause a quite rapid temperature increase

[HHM]

By the way - The ultrasonic cleaner I used have following spec: Power: 50W, Frequency: 42kHz

[Turnbuckle]

Has anyone tried an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner to dissolve the C60? Those things seem ridiculously cheap at Amazon.

I have and it seems to be quite effective. I tried to add 5 ml of C60oo solution (concentration 0.8g/L) in 150ml melted coco grease (30 degrees celsius). The C6oo solution had a brownish/redish color. The melted coco grease was clear. Initial stirring with a spoon left no trace of the c60oo color i.e. the coco grease - C60oo mix was clear. However after 5 minutes in the cleaner the color started to change towards purple. I gues that it means that some c60 agglomerates were broken and dissolved in the copco grease. One strange thing happend though. The coco grease-C6ooo mixture took very long time to solidify - 3 days or so - and it never became as solid as the initial coco grease. Maybe the Ultra Sonics changed the structure of the fat chains or maybe its just due to the mixture with oo. By the way - sonification cause a quite rapid temperature increase

This might be a way of getting it into DMSO.

[JohnD60]

FWIW, my prior research indicated that C60 was about 700 Daltons in size (the C60-OO adjunct would be larger). And that transdermal administration only works with molecules smaller than 500 Daltons in size.

[niner]

FWIW, my prior research indicated that C60 was about 700 Daltons in size (the C60-OO adjunct would be larger). And that transdermal administration only works with molecules smaller than 500 Daltons in size.

Well, that's more of a rule of thumb than a hard cutoff. Most 500 g/m molecules are big and "bumpy", with various functional groups sticking out all over the place. C60 is a sphere, so it will probably slip through pretty well. When it has a fatty acid attached, that will change the picture somewhat, but you still have very favorable hydrophobicity. I wouldn't be surprised if it was transdermally available.

[Turnbuckle]

As this was deleted from another thread, I'll repost it here--

Mixed fullerenes (SES C60/C70 extract) began to dissolve almost instantaneously in d-limonene and after 18 min of ultrasonic treatment there was some residue at an attempted concentration of 1 mg/ml, but not much. Filtering was about 20 times faster than with EVOO and it would have filtered itself by gravity alone even without a vacuum assist. The color was about the same as with EVOO. As d-limonene's freezing point is -96C, I expected no problem with keeping it in the freezer, however after 12 hours there was some freezing out of a small amount of material at the upper rim and the bottom (<<1% of the total). The bottom residue has the same color as the bulk liquid while the upper rim material is clear.

Edited by Turnbuckle, 13 September 2012 - 10:50 AM.

[hav]

I picked up a box of autofil filter packs about a month ago and have decided to stop centrifuging my c60/evoo. Because when I filter it before centrifuging, I found I got no further sediment at the bottom of the tubes after centrifuging. At least none I can detect. I've been mixing 800 mg c60 to 1 liter of Tunisian evoo and using 22 micron autofil filter kits.

For my next liter batches, I've decided to pre-filter my evoo before I mix in the c60. I've already done the pre-filtering but the c60 is still spinning on my magnetic stirrer. I curious whether I'll get anything on the filter surface when I filter the c60/evoo mix after it spins its 2 weeks.

Howard

[Andey]

Is it correct to mix c60+oil with mechanical mixer ? By kitchen mixer at law speed for example.

[niner]

Is it correct to mix c60+oil with mechanical mixer ? By kitchen mixer at law speed for example.

It would work. With a magnetic stirrer, you can cover the top of the container with plastic wrap, or even put a lid on it. With a mechanical stirrer, this is harder, but not impossible. One of the pathways for adduct formation requires oxygen, so it might be a good idea to at least vent the mixture occasionally.