150 replies to this topic

[mitomutant]

Back from holidays.

PQQ test was over and the general conclusion is that there might be some benefit. Not dramatic, but noticiable. I will now stop taking it - I am starting to test with MB - , but I will eventually take it on a daily basis.

[dear mrclock]

whats MB ?

[mitomutant]

whats MB ?

Methylene Blue

[dear mrclock]

why are you taking this methylene blue shit ?

[mitomutant]

why are you taking this methylene blue shit ?

Here are some useful pointers

celular senescense
member´s experience
Nice and simple review

It would also be interesting to know your rationale behind the "shit" adjective. Am I missing something here ?

[Turnbuckle]

Back from holidays.

PQQ test was over and the general conclusion is that there might be some benefit. Not dramatic, but noticiable. I will now stop taking it - I am starting to test with MB - , but I will eventually take it on a daily basis.

Some have notice a withdrawal effect when stopping PQQ, so you might want to give it a week before starting something else.

[mitomutant]

Back from holidays.

PQQ test was over and the general conclusion is that there might be some benefit. Not dramatic, but noticiable. I will now stop taking it - I am starting to test with MB - , but I will eventually take it on a daily basis.

Some have notice a withdrawal effect when stopping PQQ, so you might want to give it a week before starting something else.

I didn´t know this but coincidentally I stopped taking PQQ at the end of the 1st holiday week ( for a total of 3 weeks taking PQQ ), so I have been 9 days without PQQ supplementation.

[dear mrclock]

Back from holidays.

PQQ test was over and the general conclusion is that there might be some benefit. Not dramatic, but noticiable. I will now stop taking it - I am starting to test with MB - , but I will eventually take it on a daily basis.

Some have notice a withdrawal effect when stopping PQQ, so you might want to give it a week before starting something else.

withdrawal ? how did you come up with this, is pqq some type of a drug ? who are those "some people" ?

why are you taking this methylene blue shit ?

Here are some useful pointers

celular senescense
member´s experience
Nice and simple review

It would also be interesting to know your rationale behind the "shit" adjective. Am I missing something here ?

i checked about this on wikipedia and it seemed like laboratory chemical for testing various things and i thought its "shit" to be taken as supplement.

[Turnbuckle]

Back from holidays.

PQQ test was over and the general conclusion is that there might be some benefit. Not dramatic, but noticiable. I will now stop taking it - I am starting to test with MB - , but I will eventually take it on a daily basis.

Some have notice a withdrawal effect when stopping PQQ, so you might want to give it a week before starting something else.

withdrawal ? how did you come up with this, is pqq some type of a drug ? who are those "some people" ?

Were you unable to open the link?

[dear mrclock]

sorry didnt see it as clickable. was kind of hidden within the text :/

from what i see the withdrawl means that once you stop supplementation mithochondria will return to as it was before supplementing. basically, you have to take that forever if you have problems with mithochondria ? its pretty much like any other supplement out there, you get used to it, and it goes right until you stop and then its back to zero. it seems, most supplements should be taken forever to fix whatever problem you are trying to fix. which is kind of sad :(

Edited by dear mrclock, 06 September 2012 - 06:06 AM.

[mitomutant]

Back from holidays.

PQQ test was over and the general conclusion is that there might be some benefit. Not dramatic, but noticiable. I will now stop taking it - I am starting to test with MB - , but I will eventually take it on a daily basis.

Some have notice a withdrawal effect when stopping PQQ, so you might want to give it a week before starting something else.

withdrawal ? how did you come up with this, is pqq some type of a drug ? who are those "some people" ?

why are you taking this methylene blue shit ?

Here are some useful pointers

celular senescense
member´s experience
Nice and simple review

It would also be interesting to know your rationale behind the "shit" adjective. Am I missing something here ?

i checked about this on wikipedia and it seemed like laboratory chemical for testing various things and i thought its "shit" to be taken as supplement.

From the "cellular senescense" link above:

Methylene blue (MB) has been used clinically for about a century to treat numerous ailments

Being a laboratory chemical does not invalidate other uses. You are probably eating much more shit in a bag of doritos.

[dear mrclock]

yeh ok keep updated on how it works for you

Edited by dear mrclock, 06 September 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

sorry didnt see it as clickable. was kind of hidden within the text :/

from what i see the withdrawl means that once you stop supplementation mithochondria will return to as it was before supplementing. basically, you have to take that forever if you have problems with mithochondria ? its pretty much like any other supplement out there, you get used to it, and it goes right until you stop and then its back to zero. it seems, most supplements should be taken forever to fix whatever problem you are trying to fix. which is kind of sad :(

Here's a report from the LEF site where the withdrawal was to below baseline--

...However... as I was in the process of re-ording a new supply, (i.e. I ran out and had a 10 day gap in between taking PQQ. within 4 days I noticed muscle fatigue... I thought I was over worked.. then on day 6 I felt soooo sleepy I could not function, by day 8 I was so bad I had to stay in bed and literally could not function. I laid in bed thinking I was dying.. I just couldn't at the time explain it.. I was worried.. then I remembered.. OMG.. I know the only difference is I stopped taking the PQQ.. finally my supply of PQQ arrived and I took my usual 20mg dose.. within less than 24 hrs I felt my self feeling great again...

... my worry is this.. I have not heard anyone talk about withdrawal symptoms from taking PQQ.. I have to say.. I have experienced it; it was debilitating and rather frightening.. almost like a drug addict (I assume) going through withdrawal...
... anyone have any ideas? or anyone experienced this?

I am back taking PQQ regularly and have noticed significant improvement, but the withdrawal is a concern...

http://ask.lef.org/5...eIndex=5#bm2570

[dear mrclock]

WOW wtf. and the supplement industry NEVER STATES ALL THE SIDE EFFECTS OF CONCERN. if you check most of the sites (including wikipedia) the supplement is always seen as positive, superb in fact without any problems ! so so discouraging

turnbuckle, you think of trying it and report if the withdrawl is consistent with majority of people or maybe its isolated case ?

Edited by dear mrclock, 06 September 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[robosapiens]

PQQ withdrawl is conclusive - based on an anecdotal discussion forum report

[hamishm00]

Based on that report only, yes it is. Based on my experience, I didn't notice any withdrawal.

So it's far from conclusive as far as I am concerned.

[Turnbuckle]

turnbuckle, you think of trying it and report if the withdrawl is consistent with majority of people or maybe its isolated case ?

I didn't notice this post, so sorry for the delay. I've taken PQQ for a couple of years with no more than a day or two breaks at a time, so not enough to notice any problems if there are any.

[boylan]

I didn't notice any withdrawal either.

[dear mrclock]

turnbuckle, you think of trying it and report if the withdrawl is consistent with majority of people or maybe its isolated case ?

I didn't notice this post, so sorry for the delay. I've taken PQQ for a couple of years with no more than a day or two breaks at a time, so not enough to notice any problems if there are any.

why not take longer breaks and see what happens. whats up with the idea of taking it for years regularly ?

[Kevnzworld]

turnbuckle, you think of trying it and report if the withdrawl is consistent with majority of people or maybe its isolated case ?

I didn't notice this post, so sorry for the delay. I've taken PQQ for a couple of years with no more than a day or two breaks at a time, so not enough to notice any problems if there are any.

why not take longer breaks and see what happens. whats up with the idea of taking it for years regularly ?

Here's why:

http://www.lef.org/m...=search&key=PQQ

PQQ journal abstracts :

http://www.lef.org/m...=search&key=PQQ

[smithx]

The issue I have with PQQ is that it may all be marketing hype:

http://en.wikipedia....one#Controversy

Although Nature Magazine published the 2003 paper by Kasahara and Kato which essentially stated that PQQ was a new vitamin, they also subsequently published, in 2005, an article by Dr. Chris Anthony and his colleague Dr. L.M. Fenton of the University of Southhampton which states that the 2003 Kasahara and Kato paper drew incorrect and unsubstantiated conclusions^[63].
On his website^[64], Dr. Anthony discusses the Nature magazine publications:

When I pointed out to the journal Nature that their high reputation was being used to justify investments of millions of dollars in the development of PQQ as a vitamin, they investigated the original paper, agreed with our objections and published our argument against it (Felton & Anthony, Nature Vol. 433, 2005). They also published (alongside ours) a paper by Rucker disagreeing with the conclusions of Kasahara and Kato on nutritional grounds, concluding “that insufficient information is available so far to state that PQQ uniquely performs an essential vitamin function in animals.

Dr. Anthony further states on his website that "No mammalian PQQ-containing enzyme (quinoprotein) has been described" and that PQQ therefore cannot be called a "vitamin".

[Turnbuckle]

It's not hype.

Pyrroloquinoline-quinone and its versatile roles in biological processes.

Pyrroloquinoline-quinine (PQQ) was initially characterized as a redox cofactor for membrane-bound dehydrogenases in the bacterial system. Subsequently, PQQ was shown to be an antioxidant protecting the living cells from oxidative damage in vivo and the biomolecules from artificially produced reaction oxygen species in vitro. The presence of PQQ has been documented from different biological samples. It functions as a nutrient and vitamin for supporting the growth and protection of living cells under stress. Recently, the role of PQQ has also been shown as a bio-control agent for plant fungal pathogens, an inducer for proteins kinases involved in cellular differentiation of mammalian cells and as a redox sensor leading to development of biosensor. Recent reviews published on PQQ and enzymes requiring this cofactor have brought forth the case specific roles of PQQ. This review covers the comprehensive information on various aspects of PQQ known till date. These include the roles of PQQ in the regulation of cellular growth and differentiation in mammalian system, as a nutrient and vitamin in stress tolerance, in crop productivity through increasing the availability of insoluble phosphate and as a bio-control agent, and as a redox agent leading to the biosensor development. Most recent findings correlating the exceptionally high redox recycling ability of PQQ to its potential as anti-neurodegenerative, anticancer and pharmacological agents, and as a signalling molecule have been distinctly brought out. This review discusses different findings suggesting the versatility in PQQ functions and provides the most plausible intellectual basis to the ubiquitous roles of this compound in a large number of biological processes, as a nutrient and a perspective vitamin.

[niner]

The issue I have with PQQ is that it may all be marketing hype:

http://en.wikipedia....one#Controversy

Although Nature Magazine published the 2003 paper by Kasahara and Kato which essentially stated that PQQ was a new vitamin, they also subsequently published, in 2005, an article by Dr. Chris Anthony and his colleague Dr. L.M. Fenton of the University of Southhampton which states that the 2003 Kasahara and Kato paper drew incorrect and unsubstantiated conclusions^[63].
...
Dr. Anthony further states on his website that "No mammalian PQQ-containing enzyme (quinoprotein) has been described" and that PQQ therefore cannot be called a "vitamin".

This is only about whether or not it's a vitamin, not whether or not it works.

[smithx]

The evidence for PQQ seems quite good in plants and bacteria, but is there really solid evidence that it would have beneficial properties in humans?

[Kevnzworld]

The evidence for PQQ seems quite good in plants and bacteria, but is there really solid evidence that it would have beneficial properties in humans?

Most off the in vivo testing has been done with rats.
PQQ improves cardiac function in rats :
http://www.mendeley....miareperfusion/

Here is Vincent Giuliano's take ( a knowledgable guy who's blog I follow )
quote : PQQ is the only dietary supplement that can activate PGC1-alpha, and thus unleash it's chain of beneficial results including enhanced Sirt3 expression and mitochondrial biogenesis.

http://www.anti-agin...ial-biogenesis/

Here's a good overview on PQQ
http://www.altmedrev...ns/14/3/268.pdf

[smithx]

Interesting. I'd like to read the full text to see how many rats they studied.

But they state an optimal dose is 15mg/kg. Even if we assume that for humans it would be 1/5 of that amount, that would mean that I'd have to take basically an entire bottle of PQQ per day (25 of the 30 capsules, 10mg each, found in typical PQQ formulations) to get the benefits they saw.

And that benefit didn't seem too substantial.

Is there any data indicating that taking a reasonable dosage, such as 10mg of PQQ a day is of any benefit at all for humans?

[Turnbuckle]

Is there any data indicating that taking a reasonable dosage, such as 10mg of PQQ a day is of any benefit at all for humans?

Ten milligrams of a supplement is nothing. The only unreasonable aspect of higher doses is the cost. I've been taking 10 mg for two years and noticed a substantial benefit that plateaued after a week, so perhaps I should be taking more. In fact, I will do that when taking C60 to see if there is any added benefit.


Attachment: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19803551

Attached Files

•  PQQ as a redox agent.png   164.38KB   31 downloads

Edited by Turnbuckle, 26 September 2012 - 03:20 AM.

[dear mrclock]

i read on wiki a japanese study done on humans and it was said to help with memory at least slightly more than placebo.

but as it was mentioned here, i assume you need high amounts regularly to probably achieve some result. which is most likely temporary and you have to be hooked on it for life i assume. that goes for any supplement, natural whole food based molecules or isolates that are sold as antioxidants. you have to take huge amounts of all to ever get an effect AND it only lasts as long as you continue. so whats the point of being hooked to something for life, especially if money is an issue ?

[mitomutant]

The evidence for PQQ seems quite good in plants and bacteria, but is there really solid evidence that it would have beneficial properties in humans?

Most off the in vivo testing has been done with rats.
PQQ improves cardiac function in rats :
http://www.mendeley....miareperfusion/

Here is Vincent Giuliano's take ( a knowledgable guy who's blog I follow )
quote : PQQ is the only dietary supplement that can activate PGC1-alpha, and thus unleash it's chain of beneficial results including enhanced Sirt3 expression and mitochondrial biogenesis.

http://www.anti-agin...ial-biogenesis/

Here's a good overview on PQQ
http://www.altmedrev...ns/14/3/268.pdf

Thanks for the pointer to Vicent Giuliano. Great site.

[hamishm00]

I've been on a 40mg per day dosage. Would love to see some kind of dose-dependent study done for pgc-1 alpha activation.