150 replies to this topic

[anagram]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2990065/
This article states how Resveratrol increases apoptic genes and decreases antiapoptic ones, further supporting my claim that Resveratrol is not appropriate for longevity. This article also states that Resveratrol causes INOS to form, which then produces nitric oxide, nasty stuff in large quantities.
But Resveratrol has some efficacy as a MAOI that might be important, and it might have some positive effect on the human brain in small quantities.

I was on reddit today to see which nootropics were people were taking, and a lot were talking about Resveratrol. I suggested that maybe they should reconsider taking it and gave them a lot of articles to support my claim. Many refuted the evidence and claimed that resveratrol has better "evidence" to support its use, it was really weird. Any way, the moderator began to tell me that things like "PQQ have been shown to be more toxic than Resveratrol", but then I found this tantalizing fact sheet that stated that PQQ is
>5 gm/kg TOXIC
http://www.chemcas.o...ds2/7890035.asp
I looked up the msds(now sds) for trans-resveratrol and found that the LD50 was around 1000mg/kg which is much higher than PQQ. just food food thought i guess.

[Kevnzworld]

The review cited by anagram describes the well known mechanisms which resveratrol might extend life. I do not know how this review substantiates anagram's assertion that resveratrol is not " appropriate " for life extension purposes. This is not a study per se, it's a selective review of published studies. The adverse or toxic effects were in rats at what the review calls " high dose " resveratrol , typically 3000mg/ kg of body weight. I take 200 mg per day and my body weight is roughly 90 kg!
I quote from the cited review

Limited data exist regarding the adverse effects of resveratrol in aging. Juan et al. (2002) have shown that in rats, oral administration of 20 mg/kg resveratrol for 28 days produced no harmful effects as assessed by growth, hematology, clinical chemistry, and histopathology. In contrast, higher amounts of resveratrol (1000, and 3000 mg daily for 28 days) were shown to cause kidney damage (Crowell et al. 2004). Consumption of resveratrol at a modest dose results in an increase in the life span in case of 1 year old mice. However, when mice consumed larger doses (1800 mg/kg) of resveratrol, animals were shown to die within 3–4 months (Pearson et al. 2008).

Resveratrol only becomes pro apoptic at the high doses mentioned above, Remember the 1000-3000 mgs daily was given to a rat! This is equivalent to a human taking more than 100,000 mgs per day. 20 mgs ( 1800 mgs in humans ) showed no harmful effect.

Edited by Kevnzworld, 19 October 2012 - 02:45 AM.

[stephen_b]

well, do you take it?

I'm starting next week. I'll update after a period.

[anagram]

The review cited by anagram describes the well known mechanisms which resveratrol might extend life. I do not know how this review substantiates anagram's assertion that resveratrol is not " appropriate " for life extension purposes. This is not a study per se, it's a selective review of published studies. The adverse or toxic effects were in rats at what the review calls " high dose " resveratrol , typically 3000mg/ kg of body weight. I take 200 mg per day and my body weight is roughly 90 kg!
I quote from the cited review

Limited data exist regarding the adverse effects of resveratrol in aging. Juan et al. (2002) have shown that in rats, oral administration of 20 mg/kg resveratrol for 28 days produced no harmful effects as assessed by growth, hematology, clinical chemistry, and histopathology. In contrast, higher amounts of resveratrol (1000, and 3000 mg daily for 28 days) were shown to cause kidney damage (Crowell et al. 2004). Consumption of resveratrol at a modest dose results in an increase in the life span in case of 1 year old mice. However, when mice consumed larger doses (1800 mg/kg) of resveratrol, animals were shown to die within 3–4 months (Pearson et al. 2008).

Resveratrol only becomes pro apoptic at the high doses mentioned above, Remember the 1000-3000 mgs daily was given to a rat! This is equivalent to a human taking more than 100,000 mgs per day. 20 mgs ( 1800 mgs in humans ) showed no harmful effect.

I understand that Resveratrol only has antiapoptic effects at high doses however, it is unlikely that that is just a small souvenir of Resveratrol's action on the body, and a phenomenon that can be over looked. Given that Resveratrol doesn't effect the lifespan of normal rats, and only obese ones (which would die faster than normal rats anyway), it seems unlikely that you or anyone who isn't morbidly obese(like the rats in the study) will benefit from taking it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFQlFdZ78I8

here is the documentary where they interview the poster child of the Resveratrol campaign, Dr.Sinclair. if you watch it you will find that even he says that Resveratrol does not effect the life span of healthy rats. I find that when the narrator says that Resveratrol is basically CR in a pill, its not only extremely misinformed, but sends the wrong message, making people believe that this a god send that will make you live longer if you take it on a daily basis. basically CR works on many different axis in the body, an example is CR's reduction in dopamine. by avoiding hunger, you will not get the full benefit of CR because pain is necessary to achieving the full benefit from CR(autophagy), and Resveratrol's action on MAO-A, which causes an increase dopamine, is just one of the reasons Resveratrol will not extend your life.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22966478
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22886761


here is a study that shows that Resveratrol has no effect on NF-kB in acute treatment but only with overnight incubation, which means that taking Resveratrol intermittently is not going to give you life extension.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12716675

Edited by anagram, 19 October 2012 - 08:31 PM.

[Kevnzworld]

Anagram:
I have posted or commented on studies that showed increased longevity in rats supplemented with resveratrol.
There is a subject area dedicated to resveratrol. Post your opinions there. I would suggest you read thru some of the 800 threads first. You will learn alot.
This is the PQQ thread

[anagram]

Yes, I have been getting off topic. I was using Resveratrol to compare to PQQ, and I hope my contribution influences your decision in supplementing.
To get back to what I was saying previously, PQQ is a great Nootropic. With repeated 1 mg doses, I noticed that it brought my mind to a "normal" state which I returned to even days after stopping.

[Kevnzworld]

I don't use PQQ as a Nootropic, please post the evidence for that. You take 1mg ? It is sold in 10 mg capsules.
Here are a few PQQ 101's....
As with resveratrol, read the previous threads and posts to get caught up.

http://www.altmedrev...ns/14/3/268.pdf

http://www.lef.org/m...=search&key=PQQ

[fighter]

I just read the NASA doctor's latest update on his regimen to alleviate statin-caused ALS-like complications and he dropped the PQQ from his regimen as of July this year. http://www.spacedoc....f_my_story.html :(

[Kevnzworld]

I just read the NASA doctor's latest update on his regimen to alleviate statin-caused ALS-like complications and he dropped the PQQ from his regimen as of July this year. http://www.spacedoc....f_my_story.html :(

He's an interesting guy. I saw he added PQQ. But then again , he also walks barefoot for the positive ions..( nothing wrong with that ).
I hate individual, anecdotal testimonies about anything. I could say that I was a lazy half bedridden slob before I took 10 mg of PQQ. Now I'm running marathons...so what.

[fighter]

I just read the NASA doctor's latest update on his regimen to alleviate statin-caused ALS-like complications and he dropped the PQQ from his regimen as of July this year. http://www.spacedoc....f_my_story.html :(

He's an interesting guy. I saw he added PQQ. But then again , he also walks barefoot for the positive ions..( nothing wrong with that ).
I hate individual, anecdotal testimonies about anything. I could say that I was a lazy half bedridden slob before I took 10 mg of PQQ. Now I'm running marathons...so what.

Hi, I do respect your point. I think my perspective comes from those who has muscle wasting, ALS-like symptoms and other cases induced by statin medication, and not necessarily fatigue-related conditions. I'm so glad it worked for you. With that said, I'm actually planning to try it for maybe 6 months if I still have money and if I'm still alive

[niner]

He's an interesting guy. I saw he added PQQ. But then again , he also walks barefoot for the positive ions..( nothing wrong with that ).
I hate individual, anecdotal testimonies about anything. I could say that I was a lazy half bedridden slob before I took 10 mg of PQQ. Now I'm running marathons...so what.

Sure, an anecdote could be an out and out lie, but sometimes anecdotes are what you have to start out with. You can consider the placebo effect, peoples' motivation to lie (are they selling PQQ?) and you can consider the mechanistic plausibility of the effect. When the anecdotes start piling up, and meet the other criteria, then you start running experiments. Turnbuckle had a statin injury, and PQQ was the best thing he found, until C60, that is.

[anagram]

I don't use PQQ as a Nootropic, please post the evidence for that. You take 1mg ? It is sold in 10 mg capsules.
Here are a few PQQ 101's....
As with resveratrol, read the previous threads and posts to get caught up.

http://www.altmedrev...ns/14/3/268.pdf

http://www.lef.org/m...=search&key=PQQ

I cannot post evidence that you use PQQ as Nootropic, I don't know who you are or what you are asking me to do. yes, I know PQQ is sold in 10mg capsules(sometimes), I take PQQ but maybe that wasn't mentioned earlier, though I swear after reading my comments that I said that I support and use PQQ(guess I didn't make that clear enough). I am guessing you take Resveratrol, which is important, though this thread is about PQQ not Resveratrol.
I have already expressed an acute fear of Resveratrol and its detrimental effects, please don't make me explain why its bad, AGAIN. If you want to keep taking it, I no longer care If you proceed as long as you dont devolve this thread's scientific integrity by posting examples of crazy people and yelling, this shows something! get of your soap box, and post something that will help.
Resveratrol is bad, and I don't even know where to begin describing the reasons why, because there are so many. somewhere between the facts that it binds to copper containing enzymes(including SOD), causes apoptosis in smooth muscle and platelets PMID 19423619 , its found in grapes which(obviously wont increase human lifespan),
it causes mother fucking DNA DAMAGE!!! PMID 20304553 and http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18840496 , and lastly and most importantly, it is a putative inducer of sirt1, via mechanisems that can be activated by any AMPK inducer.

(quote from wiki)The study supported Sinclair's hypothesis that the effects of resveratrol are indeed due to the activation of the Sirtuin 1 gene.^{[citation needed]}

http://jpet.aspetjou.../1/149.full.pdf

even funnier is the fact that Resveratrol has no direct effects on mTOR and autophagy, but is because it cause AMPK. AMPK can be activated by so many things. in addition, its effects as a antioxidant are from upregulation of iNOS, not resv itself, which i guess is the only good thing except when you factor in DNA strand repair pathways being "posioned", nitric oxide my accelerate DNA damage.

Sure, an anecdote could be an out and out lie, but sometimes anecdotes are what you have to start out with. You can consider the placebo effect, peoples' motivation to lie (are they selling PQQ?) and you can consider the mechanistic plausibility of the effect. When the anecdotes start piling up, and meet the other criteria, then you start running experiments. Turnbuckle had a statin injury, and PQQ was the best thing he found, until C60, that is.

hey, I understand that PQQ is in some ways inferior to c60(and some ways not) however I find that many people talk about PQQ like its nothing and insignificant. I must ask you, why is it people absolutely hate PQQ or consider it a waste of time(as some have insinuated)?
What does this eccentric old man have to do with PQQ's efficacy?(this is the PQQ thread)

Edited by anagram, 21 October 2012 - 04:55 AM.

[fighter]

He's an interesting guy. I saw he added PQQ. But then again , he also walks barefoot for the positive ions..( nothing wrong with that ).
I hate individual, anecdotal testimonies about anything. I could say that I was a lazy half bedridden slob before I took 10 mg of PQQ. Now I'm running marathons...so what.

Sure, an anecdote could be an out and out lie, but sometimes anecdotes are what you have to start out with. You can consider the placebo effect, peoples' motivation to lie (are they selling PQQ?) and you can consider the mechanistic plausibility of the effect. When the anecdotes start piling up, and meet the other criteria, then you start running experiments. Turnbuckle had a statin injury, and PQQ was the best thing he found, until C60, that is.

HI Niner, if I have limited resources and can only choose one, would you recommend getting the PQQ or C60 to help stop muscle atrophy? Thanks

[smithx]

HI Niner, if I have limited resources and can only choose one, would you recommend getting the PQQ or C60 to help stop muscle atrophy? Thanks

If you have age-related sarcopenia, branched chain amino acids are a good idea, and they're cheap.

[fighter]

HI Niner, if I have limited resources and can only choose one, would you recommend getting the PQQ or C60 to help stop muscle atrophy? Thanks

If you have age-related sarcopenia, branched chain amino acids are a good idea, and they're cheap.

Not sarcopenia and I am already taking BCAA/Whey

[niner]

HI Niner, if I have limited resources and can only choose one, would you recommend getting the PQQ or C60 to help stop muscle atrophy? Thanks

Your case is unusual, and I couldn't guarantee that either PQQ of C60 would be a "cure". Either one might or might not help. I would probably try both, but if I could only do one, it would be C60. $29 plus shipping isn't too bad for a trial. If you decide it's helping, then it's easy and cheap to make your own. The big question for either compound is how do you know it's helping? Would you be able to tell in a month's time?

[Turnbuckle]

Turnbuckle had a statin injury, and PQQ was the best thing he found, until C60, that is.

Yep. PQQ got rid of the statin feel in a few days and C60 gave me my breath back in a few hours. These were dramatic effects over the short term that I might not otherwise have noticed. So now I take both, as well as other supplements that impact mitochondria as it's my belief that mitochondria is the first key to aging. If your mitochondria fail you, nothing else is going to help.

[niner]

this thread's scientific integrity

That's a good one...

Resveratrol is bad, and I don't even know where to begin describing the reasons why, because there are so many. somewhere between the facts that it binds to copper containing enzymes(including SOD)

No it doesn't. If you'd ever taken a biochem course, I don't think you'd make so many noob errors.

causes apoptosis in smooth muscle and platelets PMID 19423619

At dosages and length of exposure that are impossible to obtain in vivo. And why do you think that induction of apoptosis is so bad? We'd be screwed without it.

its found in grapes which(obviously wont increase human lifespan),

Oh. Well OK then.

it causes mother fucking DNA DAMAGE!!! PMID 20304553

The cavalcade of noob errors continues. DOSE MATTERS. The equivalent dose in a human would be like ten grams every half hour. In vitro experiments are irrelevant to humans taking normal oral doses.

hey, I understand that PQQ is in some ways inferior to c60(and some ways not) however I find that many people talk about PQQ like its nothing and insignificant. I must ask you, why is it people absolutely hate PQQ or consider it a waste of time(as some have insinuated)?

"absolutely hate" PQQ? Who hates it? It's only a waste of time if it isn't doing what you want or if it is preventing you from using something better. There are people who seem to have found something better, but maybe you aren't one of them. You seem to be very emotionally attached to PQQ, and at the same time are a resveratrol "hater". I think your reasons for not liking resveratrol are wrong, but I'm not trying to get you to take it. I'd just like you to not spread misinformation about it.

[mitomutant]

HI Niner, if I have limited resources and can only choose one, would you recommend getting the PQQ or C60 to help stop muscle atrophy? Thanks

If you have age-related sarcopenia, branched chain amino acids are a good idea, and they're cheap.

Not sarcopenia and I am already taking BCAA/Whey

Do you finally have a clinical diagnosis for your muscle wasting ? IMHO PQQ will not help much if you really have some kind of dystrophy.

[anagram]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11233151

I just found this article saying that PQQ is effective against lipid per oxidation, which may have a beneficial impact on muscular dystrophy

Edited by anagram, 21 October 2012 - 09:21 PM.

[anagram]

HI Niner, if I have limited resources and can only choose one, would you recommend getting the PQQ or C60 to help stop muscle atrophy? Thanks

If you have age-related sarcopenia, branched chain amino acids are a good idea, and they're cheap.

Not sarcopenia and I am already taking BCAA/Whey

Do you finally have a clinical diagnosis for your muscle wasting ? IMHO PQQ will not help much if you really have some kind of dystrophy.

I agree that evidence is not directly suggestive that PQQ may help with muscular dystrophy, however it has been shown to increase Nerve growth factor, which may have some effect on the user's ability to control they're muscles.

Edited by anagram, 21 October 2012 - 09:27 PM.

[stephen_b]

Do we have evidence that PQQ increases mitochondria in healthy individuals (or animals) on normal diets? I was under the impression that the increases in mitochondria were seen in experiments using one group on PQQ and another on a diet in which PQQ (normally present in some foods) had been entirely removed -- in other words, no true control on a normal diet.

[anagram]

I have no clue, but I would assume that the natural levels are far lower than in the supplemented diet.

[Adaptogen]

My dad has been on statins for years without any coq10 supplementation until just last month when I have seriously urged him to begin taking them.

What form should I buy and is there anything else I should supplement him with?

I am going to try and start him on c60 this summer

[niner]

My dad has been on statins for years without any coq10 supplementation until just last month when I have seriously urged him to begin taking them.

What form should I buy and is there anything else I should supplement him with?

I am going to try and start him on c60 this summer

He started CoQ10 last month? What's he taking now? I'd probably go with a low dose of ubiquinol. It doesn't have to be dosed every day. Does he have any symptoms of coq10 deficiency?

[Adaptogen]

Yes. Honestly I had not researched the implications of the medicines until recently, when I have become much more mindful of my parents health.
He suffers from myopathy that the doctors attribute to low vitamin d levels? He is now taking vitamin d, fish oil, and an occasional multivitamin but that is about it. Plus some cvs brand 100mg coq10 that is almost empty.

He has recently started working out, i am thinking about buying some creatine for him.

He has bloodwork coming up, I told him to get his coq10 levels tested.

Edited by Adaptogen, 09 January 2013 - 02:40 AM.

[Kevnzworld]

Here is a book that I would recommend for someone that wants a detailed explanation of the various natural remedies for heart disease. http://www.amazon.co...stephen sinatra

The ubiquinol version of CoQ10 is better ( as Niner said ). It's especially important for anyone taking a statin.

Edited by Kevnzworld, 09 January 2013 - 03:42 AM.

[mitomutant]

He suffers from myopathy that the doctors attribute to low vitamin d levels?

Do you know what type of myopathy ? Statins can deplete CoQ10 levels, leading to a secondary mitochondrial dysfunction and causing a mitochondrial myopathy. If that´s the case, ubiquinol will resolve it in 4-6 weeks

[dear mrclock]

mitomutant, how is it going with you, do you feel better after some months have passed out and you were supplementing with various substances ?

[mitomutant]

mitomutant, how is it going with you, do you feel better after some months have passed out and you were supplementing with various substances ?

doing fine, thanks for asking. Intense work period with my business and some family issue (my older son´s - 7 yo - has just been diagnosed with ADHD - inattentive)

As for my regime, I am just taking the basics:
- multi
- Ubiquinol 200mg/daily
- Creatine mono 3000mg/daily
- L-Carnitine 2000mg/daily
- Fish oil (3000 mg)
- Vit D3 (2000 UI)