1725 replies to this topic

[megatron]

Well I haven't gone through the entire 36 pages here, but most of the discussion seems to be about acquiring the stuff, rather than about the stuff itself (PRL-8-53 right?).

It's mechanism is described as "making the brain more responsive to acetylcholine". So what's that? A positive allosteric modulator? Sounds a bit too vague to me, but maybe I missed some stuff by not skimming through every page. Anyone have some more info on the exact MOA etc.? Wonder what would happen if you were to combine this with Coluracetam? Total ACh transmission overload? Or super-awesome synergy? I'm eager to hear of any visual effects, seeing as ACh seems to be significantly involved in cortical visual functioning. That is of course, once the feedback starts streaming in. Info on visual effects seems to be contradicting for now.

My bad if this comes across as wanting to be spoon-fed here (not my intentions), but information about the actual substance seems rather.. absent.

A study was posted on an earlier page. I don't want to go through all the pages to find it, so I'll just re-upload it.

Attached Files

•  PRL-8-53 Enhanced Learning and Subsequent Retention in Humans as a Result of Low Oral Doses of New Psychotropic Agent.pdf   363.49KB   58 downloads

[lostfalco]

Well I haven't gone through the entire 36 pages here, but most of the discussion seems to be about acquiring the stuff, rather than about the stuff itself (PRL-8-53 right?).

It's mechanism is described as "making the brain more responsive to acetylcholine". So what's that? A positive allosteric modulator? Sounds a bit too vague to me, but maybe I missed some stuff by not skimming through every page. Anyone have some more info on the exact MOA etc.? Wonder what would happen if you were to combine this with Coluracetam? Total ACh transmission overload? Or super-awesome synergy? I'm eager to hear of any visual effects, seeing as ACh seems to be significantly involved in cortical visual functioning. That is of course, once the feedback starts streaming in. Info on visual effects seems to be contradicting for now.

My bad if this comes across as wanting to be spoon-fed here (not my intentions), but information about the actual substance seems rather.. absent.

I hope this helps. =)

http://www.reddit.co.../1d40a5/prl853/

[Nattzor]

Well I haven't gone through the entire 36 pages here, but most of the discussion seems to be about acquiring the stuff, rather than about the stuff itself (PRL-8-53 right?).

It's mechanism is described as "making the brain more responsive to acetylcholine". So what's that? A positive allosteric modulator? Sounds a bit too vague to me, but maybe I missed some stuff by not skimming through every page. Anyone have some more info on the exact MOA etc.? Wonder what would happen if you were to combine this with Coluracetam? Total ACh transmission overload? Or super-awesome synergy? I'm eager to hear of any visual effects, seeing as ACh seems to be significantly involved in cortical visual functioning. That is of course, once the feedback starts streaming in. Info on visual effects seems to be contradicting for now.

My bad if this comes across as wanting to be spoon-fed here (not my intentions), but information about the actual substance seems rather.. absent.

I've been thinking the same thing (coluracetam), good or bad?

I think I'm the only one who has written (which some disliked because I posted it on reddit, lol) about PRL-8-53 and from what I've seen, they haven't explained the MoA. The cholinergic is only one part of the MoA, but most likely the largest. I would only dose low dose PRL-8-53 with coluracetam and see how they react and try to get some uni people to research the MoA more.

[lostfalco]

Well I haven't gone through the entire 36 pages here, but most of the discussion seems to be about acquiring the stuff, rather than about the stuff itself (PRL-8-53 right?).

It's mechanism is described as "making the brain more responsive to acetylcholine". So what's that? A positive allosteric modulator? Sounds a bit too vague to me, but maybe I missed some stuff by not skimming through every page. Anyone have some more info on the exact MOA etc.? Wonder what would happen if you were to combine this with Coluracetam? Total ACh transmission overload? Or super-awesome synergy? I'm eager to hear of any visual effects, seeing as ACh seems to be significantly involved in cortical visual functioning. That is of course, once the feedback starts streaming in. Info on visual effects seems to be contradicting for now.

My bad if this comes across as wanting to be spoon-fed here (not my intentions), but information about the actual substance seems rather.. absent.

I've been thinking the same thing (coluracetam), good or bad?

I think I'm the only one who has written (which some disliked because I posted it on reddit, lol) about PRL-8-53 and from what I've seen, they haven't explained the MoA. The cholinergic is only one part of the MoA, but most likely the largest. I would only dose low dose PRL-8-53 with coluracetam and see how they react and try to get some uni people to research the MoA more.

That was your post? Well done.

[Reformed-Redan]

T&W have had issues with purification. NSN's Phenylpiracetam came out yellowish, meaning impurities. They actually just skipped the purification and sent it to NSN. I think reading about CH companies mentioned earlier by ScienceGuy would be in place.

Not that I have anything against CH companies; but, if I'm going to research something I'd rather do it responsibly.

[Hebbeh]

I'm really amazed how you people know the prices and the time span. AFAIK, both LM and NSN has promised compounds "Next week, next month" and still not delivered. Where do you get the 8 weeks from (and the price)?

my close friend saw it being mentioned on their facebook page. but it's pretty cool that they are willing to bring this to the market.

There is no guarantee Liftmode will be offering PLR-8-53....at any price...and certainly not soon. They had a post on their Facebook page with the original PRL-8-53 study to gauge interest in the compound (which I'm sure was generated by this thread) and followed it up with the following comment when asked if they would be offering it...

this is a compound we are seriously looking into, along with a few others. Like we mentioned earlier, longer term we are aiming to meet some of the new product requests based on what we gathered from all of you - hopefully more on those in the next 2-3 months.

So this is a product they will not commit to looking into for at least 3 months...which would be the time frame that we will have received and tested the compound here.....so it is all contingent on our results...we give it 2 thumbs up and in 3 months they will consider it...which means they may offer it in 6 months at best. But they are not going to commit until we test and approve it. And if they do eventually offer it...the price will be anybodies guess. So best of luck with that.

[Nattzor]

Well I haven't gone through the entire 36 pages here, but most of the discussion seems to be about acquiring the stuff, rather than about the stuff itself (PRL-8-53 right?).

It's mechanism is described as "making the brain more responsive to acetylcholine". So what's that? A positive allosteric modulator? Sounds a bit too vague to me, but maybe I missed some stuff by not skimming through every page. Anyone have some more info on the exact MOA etc.? Wonder what would happen if you were to combine this with Coluracetam? Total ACh transmission overload? Or super-awesome synergy? I'm eager to hear of any visual effects, seeing as ACh seems to be significantly involved in cortical visual functioning. That is of course, once the feedback starts streaming in. Info on visual effects seems to be contradicting for now.

My bad if this comes across as wanting to be spoon-fed here (not my intentions), but information about the actual substance seems rather.. absent.

I've been thinking the same thing (coluracetam), good or bad?

I think I'm the only one who has written (which some disliked because I posted it on reddit, lol) about PRL-8-53 and from what I've seen, they haven't explained the MoA. The cholinergic is only one part of the MoA, but most likely the largest. I would only dose low dose PRL-8-53 with coluracetam and see how they react and try to get some uni people to research the MoA more.

That was your post? Well done.

Thanks a lot. I just updated the result (posted the results (actual increases) in pictures, updated the MoA with "An article however mentions "making the brain more responsive to acetylcholine", that does not explain the MoA though." (which is fairly useless, lol) and added what gross and discrete value was.).

Edited by Nattzor, 06 July 2013 - 09:10 PM.

[jly1986]

A study was posted on an earlier page. I don't want to go through all the pages to find it, so I'll just re-upload it.

Thanks for posting the article.

The posted study reported a 31% improvement in acquisition and 108-152% improvement in retention of a 12 word list in subjects over 30. Do you or anyone else have the citation to the study using PRL 5-83 which supposedly demonstrated that it helped test subjects increase their short-term recall from 7 to 21 digits?

Edited by jly1986, 06 July 2013 - 09:29 PM.

[formergenius]

lostfalco, megatrone, nattzor: thank you!!!

I suppose "making the brain more responsive to ACh" could also be receptor upregulation somehow. Yeah, still vague, haha!
nattzor: I'll try to remember (ahh the sweet love-hate relationship with irony) your idea on combining Coluracetam and PRL-8-53 (can we just give this stuff a simple name already..? 3-(2-benzylmethylaminoethyl) benzoic acid methyl ester hydrochloride.. what about BAME HCl? edit: maybe prl-8-53 is easy, but it's definitely not catchy, is what I meant.).

Guess I'll just take things one step at a time.. Still too little info for my taste, alas.

Edited by formergenius, 06 July 2013 - 09:48 PM.

[Nattzor]

A study was posted on an earlier page. I don't want to go through all the pages to find it, so I'll just re-upload it.

Thanks for posting the article.

The posted study reported a 31% improvement in acquisition and 100-150% improvement in retention of a 12 word list in subjects over 30. Do you or anyone else have the citation to the study using PRL 5-83 which supposedly demonstrated that it helped test subjects increase their short-term recall from 7 to 21 digits?

There is no such study, it's only a quote from an article/interview/something, atleast from what I've found.

lostfalco, megatrone, nattzor: thank you!!!

I suppose "making the brain more responsive to ACh" could also be receptor upregulation somehow. Yeah, still vague, haha!
nattzor: I'll try to remember (ahh the sweet love-hate relationship with irony) your idea on combining Coluracetam and PRL-8-53 (can we just give this stuff a simple name already..? 3-(2-benzylmethylaminoethyl) benzoic acid methyl ester hydrochloride.. what about BAME HCl?).

Guess I'll just take things one step at a time.. Still too little info for my taste, alas.

My idea would be not to do it at first, but if anyone wanted to do so, I'd go with as low dose PRL and as low dose Coluracetam as possible, to start with. (And PRL is easy, Pacific Research Laboratories 8-53)

[evodude]

Hey, just found this thread, is there room for 1 more. Preferable 2-4gram

[Nattzor]

.

Edited by Nattzor, 06 July 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[Nattzor]

MIGHT HAVE FOUND THE MoA OF PRL-8-53!
(Remember that I'm a layman, this might be completely wrong, but sounds good imo)

Yesterday I realised something, in the background part mentions two studies looking at the cholinergic system. (http://i.imgur.com/9SfnWy9.png) Dr Hansl mentions that rats might need more cholinergic activity for optimal performance whilst humans might need less (it may be needed to be coupled with less serotoniergic activity and more dopaminergic activity). So I first started looking for Boshes, 1970, nowhere to be found. So I decided to go with Rech, 1968, and found it (https://cdn.anonfile...73173642411.pdf (feel free to help me understand it more, from what I understand, more acetylcholine = good for rats, but it got to be on the Muscarinic acetylcholine receptors (M1-M5, I'm guessing M1 mainly due to it's placement, maybe M4 too, but it seems weird because it increases cAMP in the cell))).


From what I've read, the cholinergic system plays a great role in cognition, an antagonist would not be good for it. I (well, RawProduce helped me with this, thanks) however didn't know that there were atleast 2 different groups of acetylcholine receptors, muscarinic and nicotinic (I knew that one). From doing some quick research, I've been lead to believe that PRL-8-53 is thus a M1 (Muscarinic acetylcholine receptor M1) antagonist ("worst case" is that it's not selective). The current M1 antagnonists are used for Parkinson's Disease (some (Trihexyphenidyl) of which seem to be dopamin agonists at the same time, which PRL-8-53 also seems to be (Trihexyphenidyl also seems to be resarched for Hunington's Disease, dystonia, and some others)). This would also explain why they tested for motor control (which is failed, or gave a rather small increase).


The dopaminergic increase is not know which receptor is targeted, I'm guessing all of them. The study Dr Hansl cited (http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4936414) says that they used L-Dopa, thus all receptors would be affected. Same goes with the serotonergic activity, MoA unknown. The study used a selective and irreversible inhibitor (Tryptophan hydroxylase), I have not yet seen the study though. Can get it if you want. I do however not believe that PRL-8-53 is an irreversible, selective inhibitor, but that is just random thoughts. The most likely explanation is that it's due to the AcH effect the serotonergic activity goes down, maybe the same with increased dopaminergic activity.


My thoughts about Coluracetam + PRL-8-53 has now changed, I think it might be ok to take them without a risk. If coluracetams MoA is through high-affinity choline uptake, it would not interfere with PRL-8-53, it would most just likely enhance the nicotinic system (idk how it would affect the muscarinic system though. I would however take the PRL-8-53 first.
Another thought is that they might work against each other if the it's the other way around with the MoA of serotonin and dopamine, that it's because of the the AcH is regulated, but I doubt it. (But still, be careful, always start low)



I would really liked feedback if possible. And credit to RawProduce for helping me.

Edited by Nattzor, 07 July 2013 - 04:35 PM.

[Nattzor]

I just however remembered that the MoA is described as "making the brain more responsive to acetylcholine" (source? Found it a few posts back). This would mean that my MoA probably is incorrect.

But assuming that Dr Hansl was right about choline in rats vs human, I've found a few things.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....icles/PMC33643/ - "For example, performance on memory tests in animals is sensitive to a variety of drugs with preference for either M1 or M2 receptors, suggesting that multiple subtypes are involved. Furthermore, the diversity of muscarinic effects and the presence of each of the molecular subtypes in hippocampus alone suggests that each of the receptors play special roles in memory and other functions involving this structure."


http://jpet.aspetjou.../340/3/588.full - "CDD-0102A administered intraperitoneally 30 min before testing at 0.1, 0.3, and 1 mg/kg significantly enhanced delayed spontaneous alternation performance in a four-arm cross maze, suggesting improvement in working memory. In separate experiments, CDD-0102A had potent enhancing effects on learning and switching between a place and visual cue discrimination."
If Hansl was rite, this would mean that a M1 antagonist would accomplish the same in humans, which seems to agree with the effects of PRL-8-53 (better WM (atleast digit span memory)).


http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20960003 - "In line with the existing literature, antagonism of muscarinic receptors resulted in specific cognitive impairments, predominantly memory performance."
This was done on humans and showed that antagonism impaired "free recall and recognition performance", not what Dr Hansl said.


I'm really lost now, is my MoA totally wrong (is it an agonist instead)? Would really want some feedback if possible.

Edited by Nattzor, 08 July 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[Q did it!]

Just touching in.

We are finishing up on the final details of the group buy; setting up the PayItSquare page, grams, shipping, number of participants etc. Should only be a day or so tell we can move forward to the next step of the group buy. It won't be long before we finally have our PRL-8-53.

[Amorphous]

Just touching in.

We are finishing up on the final details of the group buy; setting up the PayItSquare page, grams, shipping, number of participants etc. Should only be a day or so tell we can move forward to the next step of the group buy. It won't be long before we finally have our PRL-8-53.

Thanks so much for the update. This is a good news. Hope everything goes smoothly

[Reformed-Redan]

I still find it hard to belive we are getting this compound. We are amazing for getting this to happen.

[evodude]

Yeah could be a gamechanger, lifechange start of new generation of enhanced people. Can you imagine?

[PWAIN]

WHy is everyone so convinced this is going to be a winner? Realistically the chances are pretty low...Not saying it can't happen, just that it is unlikely....it is a wild punt...

[Nattzor]

Why do people think PRL-8-53 is magic? There is one study showing that they remember some words better than placebo, how is that life changing? Even a digit span of memory of 21, how will it change your life?

[Q did it!]

Why do people think PRL-8-53 is magic? There is one study showing that they remember some words better than placebo, how is that life changing? Even a digit span of memory of 21, how will it change your life?

We cannot be sure how the drug will perform. It could just be a fun novelty compound, a magic pill or a plain dud. This why we are carrying out this group buy to find out. All we can do right now is speculate, while hoping for the best and planning for disappointment. It will only be a few weeks till we find out anyway.

[Nattzor]

Why do people think PRL-8-53 is magic? There is one study showing that they remember some words better than placebo, how is that life changing? Even a digit span of memory of 21, how will it change your life?

We cannot be sure how the drug will perform. It could just be a fun novelty compound, a magic pill or a plain dud. This why we are carrying out this group buy to find out. All we can do right now is speculate, while hoping for the best and planning for disappointment. It will only be a few weeks till we find out anyway.

Sure, hope, that's what I mean. Some seem to think they'll get a super memory and perform awesome (even though there is nothing pointing towards it). That being said, I also hope, I think I'm one of those who hope the most, lol.

[sunshinefrost]

Why do people think PRL-8-53 is magic? There is one study showing that they remember some words better than placebo, how is that life changing? Even a digit span of memory of 21, how will it change your life?

A lot ! The simplest comparaison would be adding Ram to your slow computer. Who wouldnt want that ?

Nootropics DO work. This is another generation of noots, high tech noots that produced drastic permanent results. Thats why people are optimistic about it.

Edited by sunshinefrost, 14 July 2013 - 02:18 PM.

[Nattzor]

Why do people think PRL-8-53 is magic? There is one study showing that they remember some words better than placebo, how is that life changing? Even a digit span of memory of 21, how will it change your life?

A lot ! The simplest explanation is adding Ram to your slow computer. Who wouldnt want that ?

Nootropics DO work. This is another generation of noots, high tech noots that produced drastic permanent results. Thats why people are optimistic about it.

But how would remembering 2-3 more words help you? Or 21 DIGITS on your head? Please expand on that instead of just saying "it's like RAM".

I never said nootropics do work. But to call this "another generation" (as in they were suppose to be new and have a wow-factor) is silly. Where is the evidence that this is PERMANENT? I've never seen it. There's ONE study, so it's not "another generation".

[sunshinefrost]

Why do people think PRL-8-53 is magic? There is one study showing that they remember some words better than placebo, how is that life changing? Even a digit span of memory of 21, how will it change your life?

A lot ! The simplest explanation is adding Ram to your slow computer. Who wouldnt want that ?

Nootropics DO work. This is another generation of noots, high tech noots that produced drastic permanent results. Thats why people are optimistic about it.

But how would remembering 2-3 more words help you? Or 21 DIGITS on your head? Please expand on that instead of just saying "it's like RAM".

I never said nootropics do work. But to call this "another generation" (as in they were suppose to be new and have a wow-factor) is silly. Where is the evidence that this is PERMANENT? I've never seen it. There's ONE study, so it's not "another generation".

I was not arguing, i was trying to explain why people are optimistic and why people seem to think its magic. Like q said, we dont know, we are speculating on the available info. But seriously, if remembering 21 digits instead of the usual 7 doesn't impress you then i dont know how to make you see how irresistible this is. Try this... Multiply 763 by 289 in your head. With a span of 7 digits you will start having problems with remembering previous decimal answers very quickly. With 21 digits though it would be like having a sketch pad... a walk in the park. If you tried the multiplication you will see that mental manipulation require a solid short term memory. The evidence of permanence is the neurogenesis this produces. I agree that all this may be hype but i'm here to verify if this product boosts working memory by stretching short term memory.

[Nattzor]

Why do people think PRL-8-53 is magic? There is one study showing that they remember some words better than placebo, how is that life changing? Even a digit span of memory of 21, how will it change your life?

A lot ! The simplest explanation is adding Ram to your slow computer. Who wouldnt want that ?

Nootropics DO work. This is another generation of noots, high tech noots that produced drastic permanent results. Thats why people are optimistic about it.

But how would remembering 2-3 more words help you? Or 21 DIGITS on your head? Please expand on that instead of just saying "it's like RAM".

I never said nootropics do work. But to call this "another generation" (as in they were suppose to be new and have a wow-factor) is silly. Where is the evidence that this is PERMANENT? I've never seen it. There's ONE study, so it's not "another generation".

I was not arguing, i was trying to explain why people are optimistic and why people seem to think its magic. Like q said, we dont know, we are speculating on the available info. But seriously, if remembering 21 digits instead of the usual 7 doesn't impress you then i dont know how to make you see how irresistible this is. Try this... Multiply 763 by 289 in your head. With a span of 7 digits you will start having problems with remembering previous decimal answers very quickly. With 21 digits though it would be like having a sketch pad... a walk in the park. If you tried the multiplication you will see that mental manipulation require a solid short term memory. The evidence of permanence is the neurogenesis this produces. I agree that all this may be hype but i'm here to verify if this product boosts working memory by stretching short term memory.

The thing is, I never try to multiply those kind of stuff during the day and using some tricks would be more efficent. And the whole 21 digits is not even proven, the only proven thing is remembering a few more words.

And please link where they talk about neurogenesis, sure you're not confusing this for dihexa or NSI-189?

So you understand, I'm really interested in PRL-8-53, I really hope it produces the results that have been studied, but mainly the unproven things (21-22 digit span memory). But I'm a bit annyoed with the hype, the claims that it'll change life, etc.

Would still like some feedback on my proposed MoA (which seems to be wrong, seems to be an agonist instead).

[sunshinefrost]

Why do people think PRL-8-53 is magic? There is one study showing that they remember some words better than placebo, how is that life changing? Even a digit span of memory of 21, how will it change your life?

A lot ! The simplest explanation is adding Ram to your slow computer. Who wouldnt want that ?

Nootropics DO work. This is another generation of noots, high tech noots that produced drastic permanent results. Thats why people are optimistic about it.

But how would remembering 2-3 more words help you? Or 21 DIGITS on your head? Please expand on that instead of just saying "it's like RAM".

I never said nootropics do work. But to call this "another generation" (as in they were suppose to be new and have a wow-factor) is silly. Where is the evidence that this is PERMANENT? I've never seen it. There's ONE study, so it's not "another generation".

I was not arguing, i was trying to explain why people are optimistic and why people seem to think its magic. Like q said, we dont know, we are speculating on the available info. But seriously, if remembering 21 digits instead of the usual 7 doesn't impress you then i dont know how to make you see how irresistible this is. Try this... Multiply 763 by 289 in your head. With a span of 7 digits you will start having problems with remembering previous decimal answers very quickly. With 21 digits though it would be like having a sketch pad... a walk in the park. If you tried the multiplication you will see that mental manipulation require a solid short term memory. The evidence of permanence is the neurogenesis this produces. I agree that all this may be hype but i'm here to verify if this product boosts working memory by stretching short term memory.

The thing is, I never try to multiply those kind of stuff during the day and using some tricks would be more efficent. And the whole 21 digits is not even proven, the only proven thing is remembering a few more words.

And please link where they talk about neurogenesis, sure you're not confusing this for dihexa or NSI-189?

So you understand, I'm really interested in PRL-8-53, I really hope it produces the results that have been studied, but mainly the unproven things (21-22 digit span memory). But I'm a bit annyoed with the hype, the claims that it'll change life, etc.

Would still like some feedback on my proposed MoA (which seems to be wrong, seems to be an agonist instead).

can't post a link but if you beleive that Durk Pearson has some credibility, then can you agree that a 275% increase in digit memory and a person suffering from amnesia cured by a single dose HAS surely induced neurogenesis ? The original study refers to participants remembering more than 5 words out of 12 after 1 week. How is memory formation/improvement over a week not neurogenesis ?

i'm probably adding more unecessary hype with my posts, therefore annoying you further, so i'll stop here by saying this is experimental and that life changing effects are not proven at all.

Edited by sunshinefrost, 14 July 2013 - 04:20 PM.

[Nattzor]

can't post a link but if you beleive that Durk Pearson has some credibility, then can you agree that a 275% increase in digit memory and a person suffering from amnesia cured by a single dose HAS surely induced neurogenesis ? The original study refers to participants remembering more than 5 words out of 12 after 1 week. How is memory formation/improvement over a week not neurogenesis ?

i'm probably adding more unecessary hype with my posts, therefore annoying you further, so i'll stop here by saying this is experimental and that life changing effects are not proven at all.

I actually have no clue who Durk Pearson is :P I haven't actually seen the "cured" thing before, but I'm sceptical as hell about it. And the memory formation can be due to LTP (where neurogenesis does not need to happen, afaik). They actually just remembered 2-3 more words, if we take everyone in the same group. - http://i.imgur.com/cvywEIS.png

By all means, post more :P

And still looking for people to look at my MoA (but change the antagonist to agonist instead).

[gnappi]

Why do people think PRL-8-53 is magic? There is one study showing that they remember some words better than placebo, how is that life changing? Even a digit span of memory of 21, how will it change your life?

Civil service examinations for example!!!

[FrankMH]

A short term memory increase would be useful, particularly for study. I think my German flash card sessions would go quicker. As long as I don't brain dump afterwards. Clearly working memory increases would be the dream scenario. But that moves towards being able to selectively manipulate different pieces data in the head at the same time. I've not seen anything that would suggest that is the case with this compound. But maybe they didn't test for that. WM wasn't as big a thing back then.