146 replies to this topic

[Anthony_Loera]

I just donated the rest of the requested amount to get the study started

The timing of this donation is quite interesting.

A



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MODERATION NOTE
removed a couple of off-topic points related to the donation mentioned above.
These may or may not find a home somewhere else in the forum at a later time.

Edited by caliban, 29 November 2012 - 12:55 AM.
as above

[AgeVivo]

its password protected?

Of course. The cameraman and the researcher have the password

[caliban]

Sorry AV, I'm not familiar with the details of the plan, but isn't this just the instruction video?

[AgeVivo]

it is the video(s) of the randomization: when the researcher gave numbers to the treatement and placebo solutions. I have received from the researcher some numbered bottles in aluminum (in fact I see the numbers on the aluminium, in principle it is the same number on the bottle inside the aluminium) and will send the bottles to experimenters based on the instructions of the researcher, but I won't know what the numbers correspond too.

For example, if one person will have 4 rats with either-treatment-or-placebo
- I say it to the researcher
- He tells me to send bottles "14 9 17 3" (for example). He has the list so he knows whether it is treatment or placebo, but I do not

If one person has great experience in rats and has demonstrated to be very careful, to identify each rat very clearly, etc, so that she will have 4 rats with treatment and 4 rats with placebo,
- I say it to the researcher
- He tells me to send bottles "12 10 1 15 5 6 18 3" (for example). Given my instructions I know that half of them are placebos (if the researchers followed the instructions correctly) but I do not know which ones.

I have given 2 extreme examples but you can imagine many intermediate (one cage treatment, one cage placebo...). Currently we are "collecting" a list of participants who have rats of various age and trying to fugure out how to best distribute treatùents or placebos to securize the ability of the experiment to detect life extension effects if they exist.

Edited by AgeVivo, 29 November 2012 - 10:46 PM.

[smithx]

For example, if one person will have 4 rats with either-treatment-or-placebo
- I say it to the researcher
- He tells me to send bottles "14 9 17 3" (for example). He has the list so he knows whether it is treatment or placebo, but I do not

Who knows which person gets which bottles? I hope it is not the same person who knows which are placebo and which are treatment.

Who collects the data? I hope it is again someone who doesn't know which are placebo and which are treatment.

If one person has great experience in rats and has demonstrated to be very careful, to identify each rat very clearly, etc, so that she will have 4 rats with treatment and 4 rats with placebo,
- I say it to the researcher
- He tells me to send bottles "12 10 1 15 5 6 18 3" (for example). Given my instructions I know that half of them are placebos (if the researchers followed the instructions correctly) but I do not know which ones.

So I assume that each rat (aren't we doing mice?) would have to be kept in a separate cage. Is this what pet owners would typically do?

I still feel that there would be a high probability of things getting mixed up if both placebo and treatment are in the same location/household. It would be easier for everyone if the person with 8 animals got 8 bottles of EITHER placebo or treatment. They could keep their animals in the same cage, in different cages, mix them, up, etc. without affecting the integrity of the experiment.


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Moderation note:
Removed off-topic moderation request details..
-MH

Edited by MrHappy, 01 December 2012 - 01:48 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

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Moderators: Since any comments replying to this (below) off-topic post were removed, I request that this post itself also be removed, given that it is entirely off topic.

I just donated the rest of the requested amount to get the study started

The timing of this donation is quite interesting.

A



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MODERATION NOTE
removed a couple of off-topic points related to the donation mentioned above.
These may or may not find a home somewhere else in the forum at a later time.

I don't think it's entirely off topic at all. After all it's about a donation that completed the amount needed for the study, and how Sarah was very happy to donate the money at this particular date and time.

What is wrong with that? Wouldn't people wonder who made the study possible?

A

[smithx]

It's off topic because its purpose is to imply that the donation is related to your threatened lawsuit against the donor, and thereby to impugne her motives.

By allowing your comment to stand, but removing her reply and any other replies, the moderators have, in-effect played favorites, which is unfair.

[AgeVivo]

Who knows which person gets which bottles?.

no one: rhe researcher is not in contact with experimenters (in fact he doesn't follow the forums; he just follows my local requests like: 'can you give me 4 numbers that have the same content? then never give those numbers again")

Who collects the data? I hope it is again someone who doesn't know which are placebo and which are treatment.

People who follow the forum for those who report in the forum.

So I assume that each rat (aren't we doing mice?) would have to be kept in a separate cage. Is this what pet owners would typically do?

In the extreme yes. In the case where there are two cages where both receive a different content it is easier (based on the first people I discussed with I think that might be the most common case). Mice too but for now there are essentially people with rats at home (of various ages...)

I still feel that there would be a high probability of things getting mixed up if both placebo and treatment are in the same location/household. It would be easier for everyone if the person with 8 animals got 8 bottles of EITHER placebo or treatment. They could keep their animals in the same cage, in different cages, mix them, up, etc. without affecting the integrity of the experiment.

In theory but there is a practical issue. With the very small number of experimenters that we see so far the statistical power would be insufficient to conclude anything unless the effect of C60 is extraordinary: chances are large that such an approach would ruin the experiment. Having treatment AND placebo in a same house has the advantage to rule out the home effect locally (the size of which is unknown currently and contains strain differences, care differences, food differences, temperature differences, etc.); the inconvenient to require serious pet owners in order not to mixt things up. So we look at it on a case by case basis, and so far there are cases where it is not obvious (eg children nearby) so we do what you propose and cases where it is obvious (persons with longstanding use of rats and very precise care and organisation).

Edited by AgeVivo, 30 November 2012 - 06:33 AM.

[Anthony_Loera]

Actually I would ask the moderators to delete the post below by SmithX (as well as this one), because without it, no one would mind (know, or consider the previous posts he mentioned) in bad taste, since the context of SmithX's opinion would be lost.

I once heard a good person tell me...
(There is a Japanese saying: "If a pot stinks, put a lid on it." )...

In this instance, I would state that SmithX keeps on taking the lid off.

A

It's off topic because its purpose is to imply that the donation is related to your threatened lawsuit against the donor, and thereby to impugne her motives.

By allowing your comment to stand, but removing her reply and any other replies, the moderators have, in-effect played favorites, which is unfair.

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 30 November 2012 - 05:43 PM.

[AgeVivo]

Hello, we haven't used this forum for a long time so I don't know if it is the best place.
I just want to say that the researcher who makes the solutions (c60oo or placebo) now has the olive oil and the c60oo bottles. Due some vacations things will talek time. The solutions and pipettes may be sent at the end of August to the persons who recently showed interest in given treatment-or-placebo to their rats

[AgeVivo]

Randomisation of tubes 21 to 40 done this week -- just like last time:
-- half of them will contain c60, half of them won't
-- I won't know which one is what
-- The main friend researcher and someone else (who filmed the numbering of treatments and placebo) have made a film and are going to crypt the file and put it online. They 2 only have the password.

[smithx]

Great!

I'm so happy to see progress being made in this.

[AgeVivo]

the researcher will give me the solutions this coming week and I will send them next week-end

[David Latapie]

Hello,

I've been told this would interest you. This is a control video for an experiment still occuring. The video is supposed to be watched only once the experiment is over. Plus,access is restricted - if you are allowed to watch it, you already received a mail.

Control video

Have a nice, long day - and life.

Edited by David Latapie, 17 September 2013 - 09:04 PM.

[AgeVivo]

I have the numbered treatment/placebo bottles in aluminium. Will send them this week-end

[niner]

Just to be clear, is the video that was just posted the coding for the placebos and actives?

[smithx]

I have the numbered treatment/placebo bottles in aluminium. Will send them this week-end

Hmm... are we sure the aluminum won't affect the solutions? I know that if I spill olive oil on an aluminum baking pan and wipe it off with a paper towel, the paper towel clearly has some blackening on it from the aluminum.

What kind of bottles did Baati use? I feel that colored glass would be preferable.

Sorry if you see this as nitpicking, but aluminum has previously been implicated in several degenerative processes.

[niner]

I took AV's statement to mean that the bottles were placed inside an aluminum container, or were wrapped in aluminum foil, but it's really not clear. The compounds absolutely should not be in contact with metals; in fact, even plastics can have problems. Glass would by ideal, although there are plastics that are also ok.

AgeVivo, could you clarify the above post?

[David Latapie]

Just to be clear, is the video that was just posted the coding for the placebos and actives?

Yes.

Glass would by ideal, although there are plastics that are also ok.

The product is in glass bottles and the glass bottles are "anonymised" by an aluminium film around them. So no direct contact between the product and aluminium.

Edited by David Latapie, 20 September 2013 - 11:10 PM.

[Guyrogers]

Does anyone know how to accurately cost up replicating the Baati study with a professional set up and a significantly increased sample of animals?

[niner]

Does anyone know how to accurately cost up replicating the Baati study with a professional set up and a significantly increased sample of animals?

 

Not exactly, but here are the per diem charges for the Southern Illinois University vivarium.  They list $0.37/day for rats, but I think that's subsidized.  You should probably plan on double or triple that amount.  If you already have space and could staff the facility yourself, it would probably be cheaper to build your own.   It would be a multi-year experiment.  For what it's worth, it isn't necessary to greatly increase the number of animals.  Baati's result was highly significant with a dozen animals.  More animals would not make enough difference in the significance to be worth the cost. 

[Guyrogers]

I am considering funding a C60oo longevity study possibly using aged mice, but my background is in electronics and I have no experience in bio-lab or animal husbandry, do you know where I would start as I would want to plan this properly in a view of having the paper peer reviewed?

[PWAIN]

Maybe go to your local Uni and see if they could help you with the setup and give you help on how to maintain the mice.

[niner]

I am considering funding a C60oo longevity study possibly using aged mice, but my background is in electronics and I have no experience in bio-lab or animal husbandry, do you know where I would start as I would want to plan this properly in a view of having the paper peer reviewed?

 

One of our members gave c60oo to three pet mice, starting in relatively old age.  It was an uncontrolled experiment, and the mice lived long enough that there was some suggestion of enhanced lifespan, but the effect wasn't large enough to be obvious, given the small number of animals and ambiguities surrounding the exact age of the animals and the expected lifespan for the species.  Probably you should use a genetically uniform strain, for example C57Bl/6 or whatever.  The earlier you start, the larger the life extension effect is likely to be.  As an extreme example, if you started c60 one day before the mice were going to die, it wouldn't be likely to do much-  A 100% increase in remaining lifespan would mean they would live only one day longer.  So.. start as early as you have time for.

 

A research university may have an animal facility and might offer courses in animal husbandry, so that would be worth looking into.

 

The amount of animals you would need for statistical significance depends on the magnitude of the effect you expect to see and natural variation in the lifespan of the animals.  Baati only had a dozen animals in the placebo and intervention arms, but that was plenty given the size of the observed effect.  If you were expecting a much smaller effect (which might be a reasonable assumption if you start with old mice) then you would need a larger number of animals.

[Guyrogers]

Thanks, contacting a University would be a good place to start I guess, my reasoning for using aged mice is that I am (in part) following the theory of 'developmental drift' i.e. natural selection works by favouring genes that help organisms reproduce. After reproduction ends, genes are beyond natural selection’s reach. I am making the supposition that aging does not actually begin until the general period of infertility of the female sex of a given species. Therefore I am following an assumption that an animal model does not really begin to age until this point, it merely matures & develops. I would want to begin treatment at around 12 - 14 months as this is around the point at which fertility of female wild-type mice begins to drop off.

 

I am thinking it would be good to monitor the following age/longevity related markers:

·         Telomere length

·         Telomerase activity

·         CD34+ cell count

·         IGF1 concentration

·         Cell proliferation

·         ROS production

·         Inflammation

 

I take your point about the animal sample size however I would be going into this in the hope of dramatic life/health extension but not counting on it, if I am making a commitment to a several year study then I want to make sure we are in a position to gain as much data as possible even if it is only statistically significant. Or alternatively a statistically significant unexpected change to one of the bio-markers in an unexpected direction even if the overall results of life/health extension are dramatic.

 

I am also considering combining compounds with c60oo to try and address CD34+ exhaustion, it is my understanding that mice already have long telomeres and are also particularly adverse to oxidative stress as proven with studies that run mice to death on treadmills (the opposite appears to be true for humans). If we consider that aging is a failure of multiple bio markers and that different species have different length fuses for each marker then we really need to address all known markers simultaneously. I believe from current understanding that C60oo is an exceptional antioxidant so should limit ROS production, inflammation and may also be helping to limit shortening of telomeres, we can also address IGF1 and cell proliferation through alternate day fasting (ADF). As for CD34+ up-regulation; it has been shown that porcine placenta supplements can effectively increase CD34+ propagator cells by 600% in one human study. (I would link to the paper but I am not at my 10 post minimum for posting links on longecity).

 

These are just my thoughts so far but if anyone has any good ideas, criticism or can point out obvious flaws in my reasoning please express them.

 

Edited by Guyrogers, 15 May 2014 - 02:25 PM.

[kmoody]

I have thoughts. Will PM you.

[BigPine]

Bump. Any updates on this? How many animals are still alive? It's been over two years since the experiment started, so nearly all of the control rats/mice should have died by now.