196 replies to this topic

[inw]

Very interesting Kompta - I think you are very close! I'm at 14 months now, but still have agoraphobia, EXTREME fatigue, and get some randon panic/anxiety attacks. Still can't go anywhere I want when I want. I tried Celexa when the anxiety got really bad a few months ago, but even at 20mg I didn't feel much different at all. I really don't want to try 5 different SSRI's to see which one will make me feel normal and functional.

I turned a big corner between months 15 and 18, so hold on, a major relief may be close.

Thanks so much for the reassurance man! I'll keep everyone updated too

[chemicalambrosia]

I tend to attribute the "more energetic, but at the same time more agitated brain" to some Glutamate hyperactivity, not because of impaired GABA function by itself, but as part of all complex neuroadaptations due to benzodiazepine use, in form of a long-term potentiation of the glutamergic system. During our conversation, the doctor said something like "let's see how things unfold for you, and we may consider a NMDA antagonist OR agonist, depending on that". I didn't ask about details (he has something in mind), but it seems at the later stages of PAWS it is rather about glutamergic hyperactivity rather than gabaergic underperformance. It is about finding a very fine balance of NMDA activation. Too little - bad, too much - even worse. In my present condition, it seems to go rather into the "too much" direction.

I have looked at information about Memantine here on Longecity. It seems it may be the right substance for me. It states that Memantine eliminates only excessive NMDA activity, being a "low-affinity voltage-dependent uncompetitive antagonist". The question mark is if it could attribute to normalization of glutamergic activity in the long term. I have just asked the doctor per e-mail about his opinion on Memantine and if it could be beneficial in my condition. I am awaiting his reply.

Very interesting... Let us know anything you find out about normalizing NDMA. I suspect it could help people whose brain chemistry is screwed up by alcohol and possibly cannabis as well.

[ColoradoPAWS]

Hi Kopota - good luck. I am going to let these guys know i would like to be there sixth tester on the ginko theory. I picked up the ginko blend Devant recommends ( 24 % extract standardized with 6 % terpene lactorues ) . I have started today. Anyone interested in following the progress can follow the thread below. The thread is already 43 pages but you can follow the findings of the testers if your interested. Early results are promising' so far

http://www.benzobudd...p?topic=81617.0

Edited by ColoradoPAWS, 05 July 2013 - 02:36 AM.

[bugasman]

Hi Bugasman. I never heard of that herb. I googled it but do not see any interaction with gaba, which might be a good thing. I sounds like it helps your cog fog- am I understanding you correctly ? I would be very interested to try it. It does not look like many folks have tried it for benzo paws. Can you advise if your taking the bark as supplements or as a tea? Can you tell what dose and how long you gave used it ? Is this a supplement that you cycle on and off or can you take everyday without building a tolerance. Do you take in the morning ? Thanks !

Catuaba first made my brain fog worse. I think this was due interacting with neutransmitters that clonazepam was blocking. But the first doses made me fell relaxed and I naturally dropped the benzos. I think you need at least one week to fell the effects but in my case I felt it on the first dose. I'm stil testing it because I think this herb is interacting with the amphetamine I use, I mean, blocking the dopaminergic effects of dextroamphetamine. After two months of benzo withdrawal my cognition returned to normal. I did one week without dexamph to see if this herb can be good at stimulant withdrawal. During this period my cognition, focus and mood was good but my motivation was normal. So I need more days to evaluate but I'm certain it have potent antidepressive and anxiolityc effects. This is a good study, try to find the full pdf free: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15991001

I buy powdered catuaba bark and make a tea using one teaspoon. I can't say if it is really necessary to make a tea but at least the heat burn some microorganisms. I take it every morning. Taking it at night relaxes me and I can sleep, but sometimes causes Imnsonia. I think you can use it everyday. People drink coffee all the time and never get tolerant.

The natives recomends to mix Catuaba with Muira Puama. This last can be a good addition to benzo withdrawal because acts like a benzo antagonist. Search at pubmed about this effect.

In conclusion, I have little experience with Catuaba because my daily use of amphetamine. But I guarantee this herb made me drop benzos and now is seducing me to drop amphetamines.

[Raptor87]

The thing that has impaired my cognition (executive functioning) the most is my anxiety.

[chemicalambrosia]

Any updates, Kompota?

[Kompota]

27 months update.

That primary brain fog is pretty much gone and I feel far more energetic. I guess the GABA / NMDA systems are finally coming back to normal. However, there is one issue left, which prevents me from performing challenging mental tasks - the high Cortisol - some label it "anxiety", but that is quite a simplification by ignorant doctors. There are no exogenous stressors right now, I am having the most calmest time I have ever had throughout my entire life. Almost certainly the issue is about the autoregulatory glucocorticoid feedback mechanism - it still isn't working at 100 %. The HPA-axis relies on a number of glucocorticoid receptors in certain areas of the brain (most notably the hippocampus). In short: the Cortisol, which is being secreted by the adrenals, is travelling through the blood stream and reaches back to the CNS, where it binds to those receptors. In response to the amounts of Cortisol present, they send a signal to the hypothalamus to reduce secretion of CRH (cortico-releasing hormone), which has a downstream inhibitory effect on Cortisol production. in this way, the "circle" of the HPA-axis is being complemented and closed.
So it is somehow strange that the normalization of the glucocorticoid feedback is taking so long and lagging behind the whole row of improvements. I have read reports that it takes about a year (or 1,5 years at worst) for people to recover from prolonged use of corticosteroids (which are cross-tolerant to benzodiazepines) like dexamethazone. So maybe in my case the issue is not about blunted glucocorticoid receptor function, but rather about loosing a number of neurons (with receptors) due to excitotoxicity during the period of acute withdrawal. Just a theory.
The best healer so far has been time. I guess the same will be valid in terms of recovery of the glucocorticoid feedback system. I plan to complete a second course with Mexifin in October, but I was thinking about NSI-189. Various articles state that glucocorticoid receptors (GR), which provide that negative feedback, are heavily expressed in the hippocampus. Additionaly, from all information available, I have got the impression it is the hippocampus area, which takes a particularly heavy hit from the benzos. More neurons in the hippocampus = more GR ? Certainly it is an interesting area worth investigating about NSI-189 effects. I am planning to join the second group buy, just waiting for things to shape out.

Edited by Kompota, 11 September 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[inw]

Kompta- thanks for getting back to everyone. I'm 16 months off and I am better than I was, but not everyday. Did you have the back and forth problem too? For a few weeks I thought I was getting there and then I get hit again with the severe fatigue, dizziness, etc.. and then I'm basically worthlesss. It's crazy how one minute I can be driving around locally doing things then the next day I'm too shot to do half of what I did the day before


I still get the vice grip on my throat along with dizziness and derealization, etc... The severe anxiety from month 6 and 10 went away (hope it's gone), I will still get uneasiness when out when I feel like crap before I go. Seems a little more managable now. I can go to the store and do a few things but not everyday, I get wiped out very easily. VERY far from being able to work anywhere still.

What I'm wondering is how I've been out of the gym for TWO years when I was basically a bodybuilder for 10 years. I'm 32 years old and I can't believe how I see overweight people walking around the block or doing things that I still can't do at 16 months off. I saw a lot of people on benzobuddies in my exact situation.

Edited by inw, 11 September 2013 - 11:38 PM.

[Kompota]

Kompta- thanks for getting back to everyone. I'm 16 months off and I am better than I was, but not everyday. Did you have the back and forth problem too? For a few weeks I thought I was getting there and then I get hit again with the severe fatigue, dizziness, etc.. and then I'm basically worthlesss. It's crazy how one minute I can be driving around locally doing things then the next day I'm too shot to do half of what I did the day before


I still get the vice grip on my throat along with dizziness and derealization, etc... The severe anxiety from month 6 and 10 went away (hope it's gone), I will still get uneasiness when out when I feel like crap before I go. Seems a little more managable now. I can go to the store and do a few things but not everyday, I get wiped out very easily. VERY far from being able to work anywhere still.

What I'm wondering is how I've been out of the gym for TWO years when I was basically a bodybuilder for 10 years. I'm 32 years old and I can't believe how I see overweight people walking around the block or doing things that I still can't do at 16 months off. I saw a lot of people on benzobuddies in my exact situation.

Windows and waves were still there at 16 months out. In hindsight, from a certain point on in recovery, bad days were mainly "provoked" by poor sleep (usually following a night of bad sleep). Although in general I kept a certain sleep hygiene, some days were the exception: eating late in the evening, staying at the PC a little longer, having some excitatory activity before sleep ... it had an unpleasant impact the next day. Only back that I could not figure it out, because my mind was so blurry and confused.

Have you checked your Cortisol levels ? It would explain the fatigue and inability to exercise. High Cortisol attributes to muscle wasting and in some cases accumulation of fat at particular body areas.

[inw]

Kompta- thanks for getting back to everyone. I'm 16 months off and I am better than I was, but not everyday. Did you have the back and forth problem too? For a few weeks I thought I was getting there and then I get hit again with the severe fatigue, dizziness, etc.. and then I'm basically worthlesss. It's crazy how one minute I can be driving around locally doing things then the next day I'm too shot to do half of what I did the day before


I still get the vice grip on my throat along with dizziness and derealization, etc... The severe anxiety from month 6 and 10 went away (hope it's gone), I will still get uneasiness when out when I feel like crap before I go. Seems a little more managable now. I can go to the store and do a few things but not everyday, I get wiped out very easily. VERY far from being able to work anywhere still.

What I'm wondering is how I've been out of the gym for TWO years when I was basically a bodybuilder for 10 years. I'm 32 years old and I can't believe how I see overweight people walking around the block or doing things that I still can't do at 16 months off. I saw a lot of people on benzobuddies in my exact situation.

Windows and waves were still there at 16 months out. In hindsight, from a certain point on in recovery, bad days were mainly "provoked" by poor sleep (usually following a night of bad sleep). Although in general I kept a certain sleep hygiene, some days were the exception: eating late in the evening, staying at the PC a little longer, having some excitatory activity before sleep ... it had an unpleasant impact the next day. Only back that I could not figure it out, because my mind was so blurry and confused.

Have you checked your Cortisol levels ? It would explain the fatigue and inability to exercise. High Cortisol attributes to muscle wasting and in some cases accumulation of fat at particular body areas.

I had a few blood tests, the only thing that was low was my testosterone, I have to believe the benzo had something to do with that or the fact that I haven't worked out in ~2 years. I had a morning cortisol test done and it was within range, I need to do the 24 hr test.

[Christopher Rockwell]

How is everybody progressing here? Checking in.

[Kompota]

I am 2 months short of 3 years off and I am still not 100%. Somewhere around the start of this 3rd year I felt the primary symptoms started to lift off, I became a bit more energetic (maybe the GABA / NMDA issues started to resolve). Since then it has been mainly about the slow recovery of the HPA-axis (the negative glucocorticoid feedback) with high cortisol levels as a result. Because of that, I am still having difficulties performing more complex mental work. Otherwise I am feeling well overall.

I am waiting to receive my batch of NSI-189 from the 2nd group buy.

[inw]

23 Month Update

 

I'm still not capable of working or running around everyday due to the debilitating fatigue, but I made huge progress recently when I was able to go to an event about 60 miles away w/ my friend.  I couldn't go too far from the house for the longest time without getting anxiety/panic etc...  The anxiety and panic definitely diminished from month 14-23.

 

Symptoms Now

SEVERE FATIGUE

ZERO Motivation

ZERO endurance when trying to workout

 

Things that improved
Sensitivity to caffeine seemed to get a little better.  I drink 1/2 caff with not much of an issue.

Anxiety and fake/drug induced mental fear/panic is way way down

 

Anyone have insight as to why I can only go to the gym literally a couple times per month.  I feel ok a few times a month and I go to the gym then I'm so tired and shot out I can never make it back.  Before coming off the benzo I was an animal in the gym training very hard.
 

Wondering if I should try to L-Tyrosine, it could be a dopamine deficiency.  I've also had blood tests, thyroid, etc... all clear.

[Kompota]

Anyone have insight as to why I can only go to the gym literally a couple times per month.  I feel ok a few times a month and I go to the gym then I'm so tired and shot out I can never make it back.  Before coming off the benzo I was an animal in the gym training very hard.

The high cortisol gets me tired extremely quickly after physical excercise, but I believe excercise is very important in the long run for recovery, no matter short-term discomfort. I noticed how this "threshold" only gets higher with time passing.

[Christopher Rockwell]

As for myself, I am into my 25th month off now and I have seen great improvements but also some symptoms that still make life difficult.   The biggest struggle I have is the wave window cycle.  There are days when I can do anything and when those come, I feel that it is all over and that life is back to normal.  But then a wave cycle comes and I struggle with anxiety in public, especially in crowded places, and it makes simple tasks difficult.  The inconsistency also makes it difficult to maintain a social life.  It's difficult for people to comprehend how you were just fine last weekend but somehow can't see anybody this weekend. And so this makes me reserved in introducing anybody new into life at this point as explaining the last 3 years of my life to people is not something I want to do anymore. I am able to work but in a limited capacity and am unwilling to take on anything more until I'm fully recovered.  I do expect a full recovery to take place this year and am looking forward to putting this all behind me.  As for exercise, I've been lifting weights since being a couple months off and I feel it has helped, at least with morale, in the last two years.  It's something to look forward to and also it gives me measured progress, something that benzo withdrawal won't allow.  I workout at home and that makes it much easier  since I don't have to worry about my symptoms interfering.  I'm pretty much done trying supplements or anything else since I've given so many things a try over the years and nothing consistently helped. 

[inw]

As for myself, I am into my 25th month off now and I have seen great improvements but also some symptoms that still make life difficult.   The biggest struggle I have is the wave window cycle.  There are days when I can do anything and when those come, I feel that it is all over and that life is back to normal.  But then a wave cycle comes and I struggle with anxiety in public, especially in crowded places, and it makes simple tasks difficult.  The inconsistency also makes it difficult to maintain a social life.  It's difficult for people to comprehend how you were just fine last weekend but somehow can't see anybody this weekend. And so this makes me reserved in introducing anybody new into life at this point as explaining the last 3 years of my life to people is not something I want to do anymore. I am able to work but in a limited capacity and am unwilling to take on anything more until I'm fully recovered.  I do expect a full recovery to take place this year and am looking forward to putting this all behind me.  As for exercise, I've been lifting weights since being a couple months off and I feel it has helped, at least with morale, in the last two years.  It's something to look forward to and also it gives me measured progress, something that benzo withdrawal won't allow.  I workout at home and that makes it much easier  since I don't have to worry about my symptoms interfering.  I'm pretty much done trying supplements or anything else since I've given so many things a try over the years and nothing consistently helped. 

 

Sounds exactly like me but I've been out of the gym for 2+ years because of this whole thing.  It's just insane, I get "FATIGUE" attacks and I have to lay down or take a nap to recharge even if I didn't do anything.  I might get a sleep apnea test because I wake up just shot with zero energy and I have dark circles under my eyes too, but I get at least 7-10 hrs.

[erraticpattern]

How is everyone doing currently?

Also, at what point did the extreme depersonalization and derealization begin to wear off?

[Kompota]

I am one of those, who didn't suffer from pronounced depersonalization and derealization, or rather those were very mild.

 

I started NSI-189 on 19th August (so less than a month) and I believe I am just starting to notice those big changes I was waiting for so long. However, it is still early days. Somewhere in the beginning of November, I will write here a report about how it went on.

[erraticpattern]

I am one of those, who didn't suffer from pronounced depersonalization and derealization, or rather those were very mild.

 

I started NSI-189 on 19th August (so less than a month) and I believe I am just starting to notice those big changes I was waiting for so long. However, it is still early days. Somewhere in the beginning of November, I will write here a report about how it went on.

 

Definitely interested in hearing about how this turns out for you. NSI-189 has generated some interest with me when it's recent clinical trial was completed over the summer.

[barbelith42]

Been there. I totally feel for you guys. One of the worst slow death kinds of feelings to have. At the very end of it all, BDNF enhancers like noopept and p21 cycled on and off keep me improving at or beyond original function. Selank assisted with temporary cortisol spikes acutely, as did ashwagandha, rhodiola, gingko, and ginseng chronically. Ash/rhod/(real aged red tea)ginseng would be the only ones I'd take regularly instead of green tea in the afternoon when I was in a brain fog or feeling excess cortisol coming on. Dramatically different life with these. Eleuthero also helped to get me going without sides.

[PowerfulP]

Has anyone attempted flumazenil or a GABA inverse agonist to treat Benzo PAWS with lasting success? 

 

I believe flumazenil requires near chronic administration for a lengthy period of time to work. Way longer than the couple of days they do to treat acute withdrawal at places like the Coleman Institute. This is generally done by IV, but there are other ways. 

 

I don't feel like getting into the science of all this at the moment (it is detailed elsewhere), but I am almost convinced this will restore the GABA-A receptors to pre-benzo normality, allowing normal binding, GABA function again. 

 

I may be doing this myself soon enough, first with flumazenil, a more accepted method. If anyone has been through this for a good length of time with or without success, please share your findings or message me. 

[PowerfulP]

I second you on the P21 helping. I have NSI-189 but haven't tried it yet. Didn't notice anything with noopept. Selank seems too subtle if it does help. Ash, rhod very subtle. I stopped gingko and ginseng. The last four have, at most, a placebo effect.

 

My depersonalization is completely gone these days, finally. So has brain fog. Even my memory is improving, yet still shitty. This is always subject to change, but the current stack I have found to work is: phenibut, P21 twice a week, Selank twice a week, tianeptine, kratom (sometimes), wellbutrin 200mg/day. adderall on occasion (sometimes higher than prescribed dosage). Fasoracetam on occasion.

 

I also cut out memantine. I actually noticed a huge benefit going off of memantine. Sharper, memory better, more with it feeling. Lastly, and I know this is controversial, and I do not advocate it, but I now take benzos PRN up to twice a week. I have found that to truly help, and feel lasting improvements days after taking it. I know this is near blasphemy, but I feel so much better. I also do not suffer withdrawals after using it. Spread out twice a week, I can avoid these issues ideally. Yes, I know that is playing with fire. I'm too scared to mess this up and go through hell again. So if I find twice a week is too much, I will stop. I am considering switching to lyrica or gabapentin instead of a benzo dose anyway. 

Been there. I totally feel for you guys. One of the worst slow death kinds of feelings to have. At the very end of it all, BDNF enhancers like noopept and p21 cycled on and off keep me improving at or beyond original function. Selank assisted with temporary cortisol spikes acutely, as did ashwagandha, rhodiola, gingko, and ginseng chronically. Ash/rhod/(real aged red tea)ginseng would be the only ones I'd take regularly instead of green tea in the afternoon when I was in a brain fog or feeling excess cortisol coming on. Dramatically different life with these. Eleuthero also helped to get me going without sides.

 

[PowerfulP]

My depersonalization and derealization wore off after just over nine months. Not too long ago. Huge difference that I have SO SO much gratitude for. 

How is everyone doing currently?

Also, at what point did the extreme depersonalization and derealization begin to wear off?

 

[thegron]

Hey guys,

 

I haven't replied to this thread in years but I've been following it to some extent. Anyway, I felt it was my responsibility to let you all know that after stopping the benzos, I got better. I saw some decent progress in the first couple of months and then stagnation for the next few.. but by month 8 or 9 I started to feel more clear headed. So basically it took me about 9 months to feel nearly 100 % (as always, YMMV). And it wasn't a steady improvement, as I said.

 

Hope you guys get better really soon!

 

 

[PowerfulP]

How long were you on? Which benzo? What dose? How often?

Hey guys,

 

I haven't replied to this thread in years but I've been following it to some extent. Anyway, I felt it was my responsibility to let you all know that after stopping the benzos, I got better. I saw some decent progress in the first couple of months and then stagnation for the next few.. but by month 8 or 9 I started to feel more clear headed. So basically it took me about 9 months to feel nearly 100 % (as always, YMMV). And it wasn't a steady improvement, as I said.

 

Hope you guys get better really soon!

 

[PowerfulP]

Anyone tried Lipitor or another statin to treat memory loss from Benzo PAWS?

 

Here's an interesting showing potential effectiveness: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24191400

[Major Legend]

Things that worked for weaning off:

 

cycling these:

 

noopept + lions mane + NAC

afabazole and bacopa (gaba upregulation) before sleep

agmatine sulphate (will post an article I've written later) (biphasic tolerance repair)

DO NOT take things that cross reference like lots of alchohol, or sleeping pills like zopidem.

track your sleep and get a lot of DEEP SLEEP you can take achieve this by pregabalin or CES biohardware, and keep your sleep routines as rigid as possible, the exact time you sleep matters more than the time you wake up. If fatigue is a problem take 27 to 30 minute power naps if possible.

 

You can also counter fatigue and brain fog with a plenthora of drug, supplemention, exercise and diet. And immediate non ingestion cure for brain fog is mild ketosis and 7 minute high intensity exerise. If you have brain fog when you heart rate is 120 northwards than you have issues. Make sure your fatigue is not related to other things like brain inflammation which you can't feel.

 

deep sleep is very important, also if symptoms persist I don't understand the reluctancy to take a very low maintanence dose but thats just me. Besides benzos have their uses as do opiates, both very useful drugs medically. As long as you are not escalating the doses to moderate to high levels I don't really see an issue with it. It saved my life and career, its a very personal opinion and highly subjective and may be influenced by the addictive nature of the drugs itself.

Anyone tried Lipitor or another statin to treat memory loss from Benzo PAWS?

 

Here's an interesting showing potential effectiveness: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24191400

 

Do not use statins as they disable cholesterol a key component in neuronal manufacturing and linking. Memory loss is one of the main side effects of statins. Do not use statins unless its to control a dangerous overload of cholesterol in the body, otherwise more cholesterol is better than less. They also cause muscle weakness.

Edited by Major Legend, 18 October 2014 - 01:15 AM.

[Un chien andalou]

Any updates on this? I'm 5 months off benzos.
I'm currently doing a cycle of NSI-189 but, while it helped with anhedonia and derealisation, it is also making my anxiety worse.

I've tried Noopept, NAC, Bacopa, Nefiracetam, various salts of Magnesium, Ashwagandha, Phenibut and 5-HTP to no effect.
Phenibut is the only one that works, but I don't take it anymore cause I don't want to downregulate my GABA receptors even more.

Has anybody tried Cerebrolysin for benzo PAWS?

Edited by Un chien andalou, 24 February 2015 - 11:19 AM.

[YimYam]

This is a brilliant thread, thanks!

[Kompota]

I haven't posted in my own thread since quite a while. There has been one major development - I think I found the missing puzzle piece.

 

All this time I have been Vitamin D deficient. Last November I was diagnosed with a brutal deficiency - 8.9 ng/ml (!). Medical papers state 20 ng/ml should be a bare minimum, but to feel really well one should be at about 60-80 ng/ml (the more, the better). 

 

But how is this connected to the whole benzo mess ? I started to connect the dots. It seems Vitamin D is not only a major calcium regulator in the body regarding bones and muscles, but it also active in the CNS and it does this in a certain NEUROPROTECTIVE WAY. I guess I was deficient even before the benzo journey started, so I was missing that neuroprotective effect at that time. This explains why I was hit that badly and why it is still going on for so long. My hippocampal neurons suffered from excessive Ca+ influx due to NMDA receptors being in an overdrive mode. 

 

Vitamin D Hormone Confers Neuroprotection in Parallel with Downregulation of L-Type Calcium Channel Expression in Hippocampal Neurons

http://www.jneurosci...t/21/1/98.short

 

The reason is the most common one - too little sun exposure. However I still don't get it - how is it possible for Vitamin D levels to remain that low for so long and why is it so hard to raise them to acceptable levels ?