196 replies to this topic

[Un chien andalou]

So how much Vitamin D are you taking now? Any benefit?

I'm going to try Memantine next, even though I'm getting a bit disenchanted with supplements and meds...
I don't think they can fix this mess -only time can- but I'm still gonna try this route as long as I can afford it

Edited by Un chien andalou, 01 April 2015 - 10:58 PM.

[Anomia]

There is absolutely no such thing as benzodiazepine withdrawal. It wasn't until the late 80's/early 90's that such a thing was constructed by the media when they turned their targets on benzos. Of course the naive gullible populace, medical quacks included, question nothing and soon they have created a syndrome where there was none and still in actuality is none.

 

If after a year you still experience symptoms then it had nothing to do with the meds. The symptoms however may have been masked by the meds. In many cases the symptoms are psychosomatic e.g. some people are especially suggestible and the fear of withdrawal can cause symptoms of withdrawal, especially if they are melodramatic and pity seeking.

 

Benzodiazepine withdrawal does not exist, only malingering does. And malingering hurts those who legitimately need benzodiazepines in order to function. Often doctors refuse to treat people who legitimately need them because of people like you who didn't and just needed an excuse to whine. Do you know how many people kill themselves because of whiny pity seeking malingerers like you? Lots! and they were all better people than you, even their feces. You are nothing but a parasite. This applies to anyone who agrees with you as well.

 

It is a shame that doctors took you seriously enough to give you benzos in the first place because you didn't deserve them, you didn't need them, you only needed an excuse to whine. You will find no pity from anyone that matters only other trematodes like you.

[Un chien andalou]

Benzodiazepine withdrawal does not exists? LOL!
Please ban this douchebag

"The benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome is a complex phenomenon which presents serious difficulties in definition and measurement. It is particularly difficult to set out precise limits on its duration. Many withdrawal symptoms are a result of pharmacodynamic tolerance to benzodiazepines, some mechanisms for which are discussed. Such tolerance develops unevenly in different brain systems and may be slow to reverse. Withdrawal symptoms occurring in the first week after cessation of drug use tend to merge with more persistent symptoms that may last for many months. These prolonged symptoms do not necessarily constitute "true" pharmacological withdrawal symptoms, but are nevertheless related to long-term benzodiazepine use. Such symptoms can include anxiety, which may partly result from a learning deficit imposed by the drugs, and a variety of sensory and motor neurological symptoms. The protracted nature of some of these symptoms raises the possibility that benzodiazepines can give rise not only to slowly reversible functional changes in the central nervous system, but may also occasionally cause structural neuronal damage."
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1675688

More:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24215979
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7841856
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19465812
http://en.wikipedia....drawal_syndrome

[Anomia]

Benzodiazepine withdrawal does not exists? LOL!
Please ban this douchebag

"The benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome is a complex phenomenon which presents serious difficulties in definition and measurement. It is particularly difficult to set out precise limits on its duration. Many withdrawal symptoms are a result of pharmacodynamic tolerance to benzodiazepines, some mechanisms for which are discussed. Such tolerance develops unevenly in different brain systems and may be slow to reverse. Withdrawal symptoms occurring in the first week after cessation of drug use tend to merge with more persistent symptoms that may last for many months. These prolonged symptoms do not necessarily constitute "true" pharmacological withdrawal symptoms, but are nevertheless related to long-term benzodiazepine use. Such symptoms can include anxiety, which may partly result from a learning deficit imposed by the drugs, and a variety of sensory and motor neurological symptoms. The protracted nature of some of these symptoms raises the possibility that benzodiazepines can give rise not only to slowly reversible functional changes in the central nervous system, but may also occasionally cause structural neuronal damage."
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1675688

More:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24215979
http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/7841856
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19465812
http://en.wikipedia....drawal_syndrome

 

Quack industry propaganda. Modern medicine is mostly pseudo-science, modern day puritans with agendas. When pre-existing symptoms return they exaggerate it and label it addiction. That is the basis of benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome. They use any excuse they can to demonize the morally evil "drug". This is a brainwashing tactic.

Following anti-drug logic, oxygen is the most addictive substance on earth since oxygen remedies hypoxia and when you cease doping on oxygen the hypoxia returns, thus if you are alive and breathing you are clearly an addict. You are dependent on O2. Oxygen is the most highly addictive substance on earth, clearly a narcotic. Try to apply the same logic to other things, not just benzos. Apply the logic behind the anti-benzo propaganda to an asthma inhaler or to any other medicine. It then is clearly absurd. In reality "addiction" is an ambiguous term which is why it is often applied to things like candy or recreational activities. Labeling something addictive is simply an appeal to emotion. Learn to think a little deeper. Psychoanalyze the doctors, the whiny pseudo-victims, and the powers that be. A little thought and their charade collapses.

I do not need to look at those cherry-picked links you provided. It would be impossible to verify the integrity of the authors and in any issue as socially charged as this there is a high probability for outright falsification hence why there are so many conflicting studies. I have extensively researched the topic myself in the past and for any claim against benzos presented by whatever quack, I could always find a counter study often more recent and of higher quality. What I know to be true is what I have personally felt (as someone who benefits by this medication) and through empirical observations of others and the testimony of people I know to be truthful rather than that of some puritan turds with an agenda and certainly not some whiny patients whos only mental problems are their pathological need for pity which is rewarded by their godly authority figures when they cry out addiction thereby confirming what the authority figure wants to hear.

I don't expect what I say to prove anything but maybe if I put the truth out there someone somewhere might try to think a little deeper and discover the truth for themselves.

How typical by the way, to ask that I be banned for having an opposing view. Is that how the scientific method works? If you don't like what I said you could have simply disagreed. To call out for me to be banned (or censored) shows that you are not interested in opposing views and hence not interested in the truth, only propagating a biased view or agenda that you wish were a reality, but the fact that you were bothered to such an extent by what I said proves that you yourself do not fully believe your own view to be true. Only when a person doubts their own belief do they try to censor others.
 

[Un chien andalou]

Why don't stop your benzo cold turkey and see how you feel then? :D

 

 

and through empirical observations of others and the testimony of people I know to be truthful

Yeah, because observations and testimony are more reliable than studies. Lmao.
You're pathetic dude and you fail at understanding basic neuroscience. The oxygen metaphor is just hilarious!

GABA is the major inhibitory receptor in the brain. When you stop taking a benzodiazepine there is no more GABA stopping glutamate from flooding the brain, and this causes glutamate neurotoxicity.
A cold turkey benzo and alcohol withdrawal can be deadly because of this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19465812

Also, it's been proved that GABA receptors downregulate, uncouple and internalize after long term use of a GABA agonist. This is why some symptoms (tinnitus, brain fog, anxiety) take months to years to disappear completely.

Get off your high horse and give me some study to prove what you're saying, otherwise is bullshit.
 

Edited by Un chien andalou, 09 April 2015 - 09:28 AM.

[niner]

Benzodiazepine withdrawal does not exist, only malingering does. And malingering hurts those who legitimately need benzodiazepines in order to function. Often doctors refuse to treat people who legitimately need them because of people like you who didn't and just needed an excuse to whine. Do you know how many people kill themselves because of whiny pity seeking malingerers like you? Lots! and they were all better people than you, even their feces. You are nothing but a parasite. This applies to anyone who agrees with you as well.

 

It is a shame that doctors took you seriously enough to give you benzos in the first place because you didn't deserve them, you didn't need them, you only needed an excuse to whine. You will find no pity from anyone that matters only other trematodes like you.

 

Anomia, we don't ban people for having ignorant and dangerous opinions, but we do ban people for ad hominem trollishness.  Consider this a warning.  Language like this isn't acceptable here.

[VerdeGo]

There is a lot of ignorance out there (or should I call it arrogance?). I know for a fact that benzo withdrawal occurs because I've experienced it. And it's one of the worse withdrawals one can experience, rivaling alcohol withdrawal, GHB withdrawal, or any other GABAergic substance withdrawal. That's why I stick with superfoods and sometimes theanine to boost GABA in a more natural way. 

 

Anyone with a bottle full of benzos thinking they can now use them freely is sorely mistaken. The key to life is everything in moderation. If you abuse a substance (or even use it for a long period in small doses, then stop abruptly) there are consequences. Sometimes life-threatening consequences. So please be aware, be informed, and do your research. 

[Junk Master]

Of course there is short term benzo withdrawl, but I really do think PAWS depends on personal chemistry.  I've taken up to 4 mg of Clonazepam a day (usually 2 mg) for many years, and have stopped for periods of 3-9 weeks WITHOUT any with drawl symptoms after the first five days.

 

Now, I do think short term memory impairment is longer lasting, but honestly these things are highly personal!

 

Think of a functional alcoholic who can drink a fifth of vodka a night for 20 years and quit cold turkey, or a Vicodin addict who can use 30 pills a day for months and taper off within the same time.

 

There is nothing inherently long lasting with benzo addiction or use compared with alcohol.

 

I'd love to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I'm also living proof.

 

Plus, in many cases WHY do people want to kick .25 mg of Klonopin as needed?  They might be better off with .25 to .5 mg of Klonopin a day with 200-400 mg of Modafinil a day if they are having memory/sleepiness problems.  At least until NSI-189/Dihexia etc.  become more mainstream.  

 

Heck, .25 Klonopin, Piracetam, and black cofee has  worked wonders for me!

[Tim76]

I haven't posted in my own thread since quite a while. There has been one major development - I think I found the missing puzzle piece.

 

All this time I have been Vitamin D deficient. Last November I was diagnosed with a brutal deficiency - 8.9 ng/ml (!). Medical papers state 20 ng/ml should be a bare minimum, but to feel really well one should be at about 60-80 ng/ml (the more, the better). 

 

But how is this connected to the whole benzo mess ? I started to connect the dots. It seems Vitamin D is not only a major calcium regulator in the body regarding bones and muscles, but it also active in the CNS and it does this in a certain NEUROPROTECTIVE WAY. I guess I was deficient even before the benzo journey started, so I was missing that neuroprotective effect at that time. This explains why I was hit that badly and why it is still going on for so long. My hippocampal neurons suffered from excessive Ca+ influx due to NMDA receptors being in an overdrive mode. 

 

Vitamin D Hormone Confers Neuroprotection in Parallel with Downregulation of L-Type Calcium Channel Expression in Hippocampal Neurons

http://www.jneurosci...t/21/1/98.short

 

The reason is the most common one - too little sun exposure. However I still don't get it - how is it possible for Vitamin D levels to remain that low for so long and why is it so hard to raise them to acceptable levels ?

 

Kompota, I hate to bring this up, but you should eally consider that you have some sort of brain injury from your withdrawal. I have never heard of anyone suffering from cognitive impairment for more than a year after withdrawal that has actually recovered. I believe it is a permanent condition and not one that will improve over time any more than someone with a brain injury can expect. There is no real research into how benzo withdrawal effects the brain, but it is no coincidence that the symptoms are nearly identicle to a brain injury.
 

[VerdeGo]

Even though benzo withdrawal has not caused as many fatalities as alcohol withdrawal, benzos probably aren't as widely used as alcohol, but for the record it has killed. Taking any GABAergic substance longterm that seduces the brain into relying on this external source of GABA will have dire consequences. It's like playing with fire, and some doctors hand them out like candy. Yes, they can be beneficial, but I believe relying on them for a primary source of treatment is wrong. I experienced withdrawal from Xanax years back. If I take a single Xanax in a very small dose, I will experience noticeable anxiety a few days following. Since my brain has recognized the withdrawal and the substance that caused it, I can no longer take even a single dose of that substance without repercussions. Of course some of us are more sensitive to withdrawal than others, but you can't trick the brain once you've crossed that fine line of withdrawal. It's a whole 'nother ballgame. 

 

A fatal case of benzodiazepine withdrawal.

Lann MA1, Molina DK.

Author information

 

Abstract

Medical examiners often receive cases with limited medical history. Sometimes the medical history received is slightly skewed, or even incorrect. Here we describe a case which was initially referred to the Bexar County Medical Examiner's Office from a large community hospital as a case of zolpidem overdose. The deceased presented to the hospital with hypertension, elevated temperature, worsening bizarre behavior, and movement irregularities. While in the hospital, the decedent developed seizure-like activity and died approximately 15 hours after admission. A complete autopsy was performed and yielded no significant gross or histologic abnormalities. A full toxicologic analysis revealed therapeutic levels of citalopram and phenytoin. Zolpidem was not present. Further review of the decedent's medical history as well as information provided by the next of kin revealed that the deceased had been taking diazepam for several years but had recently been switched to alprazolam. The decedent had abruptly stopped taking the alprazolam approximately 4 days before admission when she ran out of the medication, after taking approximately 200 mg in a 6-day period. Given the inconsistent clinical presentation and the findings at autopsy, we suspect that she suffered from benzodiazepine withdrawal and not an overdose as initially reported. Although it is possible that the zolpidem, reportedly taken in the 12 hours before admission, masked the initial symptoms of withdrawal, the constellation of symptoms and signs at presentation are more consistent with benzodiazepine withdrawal than of zolpidem overdose. In this report, we emphasize to the forensic community that one must maintain a high index of suspicion for alternative explanations if the initial report does not seem to fit the presentation or autopsy findings. This case illustrates that although it may take some extra time and effort, further investigation into clinical history can prove crucial to obtaining the correct cause of death and manner of death. This is only the second case within the English literature of death because of benzodiazepine withdrawal.

 

[Un chien andalou]

I just found out that Fluoxetine in low doses (where the serotonin reuptake inhibition is almost zero) increases the quantity of allopregnanolone.
This could be perfect for people with protracted w/d symptoms!

http://www.longecity...lytic/?p=723209

[Anomia]

Why don't stop your benzo cold turkey and see how you feel then? :D

 

 

and through empirical observations of others and the testimony of people I know to be truthful

Yeah, because observations and testimony are more reliable than studies. Lmao.
You're pathetic dude and you fail at understanding basic neuroscience. The oxygen metaphor is just hilarious!

GABA is the major inhibitory receptor in the brain. When you stop taking a benzodiazepine there is no more GABA stopping glutamate from flooding the brain, and this causes glutamate neurotoxicity.
A cold turkey benzo and alcohol withdrawal can be deadly because of this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19465812

Also, it's been proved that GABA receptors downregulate, uncouple and internalize after long term use of a GABA agonist. This is why some symptoms (tinnitus, brain fog, anxiety) take months to years to disappear completely.

Get off your high horse and give me some study to prove what you're saying, otherwise is bullshit.
 

 

It is ignorant of you to assume that I have never “stopped my benzo” when in fact I have multiple times. You simply assume it must be impossible due to the fact that you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed, but contrary to your assumption I have done so both as an experiment to test hype around withdrawal, to prove it wrong, and as a consequence of traveling to more authoritarian lands where anxiety disorders are even more highly frowned upon. I did not experience any withdrawal whatsoever. My anxiety after was the same as before which is to be expected. That is not due to the medication, it is due to having anxiety which I have had my entire life. Your logic is like saying if you rip the pace maker from someones heart and they at some point go into cardiac arrest it was the pace maker that caused it rather than the heart condition. It is totally absurd. I have already pointed this out. In logic the meaning of a variable is switched to determine the validity of a statement. In this case the statement that 'benzodiazepines cause withdrawal because anxiety returns after cessation' is logically absurd. To suggest that the symptoms are worse is a gross exaggeration and an exception to the norm. To suggest that the symptoms are different shows ignorance to the nature of anxiety disorders and the various dynamic manifestations that anxiety takes on and the symptoms to which anxiety may be converted. To suggest long term effects is difficult without accounting for all possible confounding variables such as the effects of anxiety itself both physiologically and socially.

 

I have already explained why I choose to trust my own experience and observations over your cherry-picked studies, the use of which amounts to nothing other than an appeal to authority. What I have is knowledge that I have actually acquired myself and verified whereas what you have is ignorance stemming from religious faith in a system based around ulterior motives -- specifically a puritan crusade against all (effective) immediate acting psychiatric medications because they are considered to be equivalent to hard drugs much in the same way as alcohol, heroin and meth which is why they often use the term "alcohol in a pill" to refer to benzos even though the effects are nothing similar.

 

Call it bullshit if you will, but such a demand is an appeal to negative evidence and as I have made clear I am not going to entertain your request for a link war. I have been through this sort of situation before and it will only result in the two of us throwing multitudes of conflicting studies back and forth only to accomplish nothing because you will only believe the ones you cherry pick yourself in order to fit what you have predetermined to be true, while I already have all I need to be confident in my own knowledge because I trust myself and my own observations which I can personally verify over that of some puritan quacks pushing an anti-drug agenda who have been pulling the same BS for the past 200 years (eg. opium, absynth). How nice it must be to be as naive as you and simply believe everything that the establishment shits out while remaining completely blind to reality, unable to locate confounding variables or consider the motive, methodology, or behavioural traits in determining the reliability of your chosen sources and their "studies".

 

Speaking of "failing to understand basic neuroscience" I shouldn't have to point out that the statement is completely baseless as you have provided nothing of substance to justify it. Furthermore, I am actually extremely well versed in the subject both autodidactically and through courses that I have taken relevant to my related major while maintaining a 4.0 GPA which is hardly "failing," whereas I seriously doubt if you have ever taken time to study the subject in any great depth at all since you only seem capable of cherry-picking and reposting other peoples "studies" without showing the slightest aptness for testing, questioning, and interpreting them on your own i.e. verifying them, the ability of which is critical in any scientific field, and the topic of which is usually discussed verbosely in the first chapter of virtually all introductory scientific textbooks. Instead you rely on blind faith and circular reasoning as your only measure of truth eg. 'if they say so then it must be so'. "If a lot of liars get together and lie then their lies become truth -- no need to analyze or question anything" forms the basic tenet of your reasoning.

 

I do not wish to ignite a flame war. I simply decided to put the truth out there for contrast. I realize the truth rips apart the dogma you subscribe to. You are hurting which is why you resorted to the thought terminating cliché "you're pathetic dude" and why you called for me to be censored in your previous post. Since you have shown yourself to be weak, stubborn, illogical, and pseudo-scientific, arguing any further would be a waste of my time and I will not lower myself to doing so on your level. Thus, after addressing these posts, I depart from this thread and leave you in the dark ages of your own mind or lack thereof.

 

PS: The pubmed entry you referred to when claiming that benzo withdrawal is deadly is pure speculation and constitutes 'Cum Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc' (with this therefore because of this). They assumed that since the patient had symptoms that were in their opinion “more consistent with” benzodiazepine withdrawal, then the initial diagnosis must be wrong and it must be benzodiazepine withdrawal instead that was to blame for their death. Similarly they could have concluded that if the patient had a cold, it was the cold that killed them. You have inadvertently demonstrated how biased the anti-benzo crusaders are and how they will look for any excuse they can to pin everything on benzos. Furthermore they admit that such an outlandish claim had only been made once prior. Claiming that withdrawal can be deadly because of a single unsupported claim gives undue weight to a virtually, and in all likelihood, nonexistent issue, further demonstrating bias on your part.

 

PPS: I stopped myself short of posting a reply the other day as I had already been intent against participating in a flame war, especially with those whom I consider to be beneath my level, however since "niner" (a moderator) threatened me and had the nerve to use a logical fallacy as his justification for threatening to censor free and open dialog I thought I should post a rebuttal since yours was ripe with fallacies (as was his) many of which I did not even bother naming.

 

[Anomia]

 

Benzodiazepine withdrawal does not exist, only malingering does. And malingering hurts those who legitimately need benzodiazepines in order to function. Often doctors refuse to treat people who legitimately need them because of people like you who didn't and just needed an excuse to whine. Do you know how many people kill themselves because of whiny pity seeking malingerers like you? Lots! and they were all better people than you, even their feces. You are nothing but a parasite. This applies to anyone who agrees with you as well.

 

It is a shame that doctors took you seriously enough to give you benzos in the first place because you didn't deserve them, you didn't need them, you only needed an excuse to whine. You will find no pity from anyone that matters only other trematodes like you.

 

Anomia, we don't ban people for having ignorant and dangerous opinions, but we do ban people for ad hominem trollishness.  Consider this a warning.  Language like this isn't acceptable here.

 

 

Niner, it is interesting that you took such offense on account of my "language" while completely disregarding the language used against me, "Please ban this douchebag," "You're pathetic dude," and "Get off your high horse and give me some study to prove what you're saying, otherwise is bullshit." even despite the contentiousness, animosity, and "trollishness" inherent in it.

 

From this I can conclude that it is not my language that offends you, rather it is the message it conveys, and more importantly that it conveys any message at all hence why the statement, "You're pathetic dude," did not offend you in the least -- that is, because it is a thought-terminating cliché containing no substance, provoking no thought, and conveying nothing other than pure thoughtless emotion.

 

Therefore, your threat has nothing to do with the "use of language" as you alluded to since otherwise blunt and antagonistic language is perfectly acceptable to you provided that it amounts to nothing, nor does your threat have anything to do with "ad hominem trollishness," a patently false accusation and attempted character assassination that constitutes an ad hominem in itself thereby further demonstrating your hypocrisy. Rather, it is that my language conveys an actual message, moreover a message that you find offensive because it is not merely mindless regurgitation passed around from simpleton to simpleton which seems to be the norm in these forums, but rather provokes critical thinking and demonstrates it.

 

Your use of the term "trollishness" constitutes both an ad hominem and a thought-terminating cliché whereby you attempt to disregard my statements simply by writing me off as a troll. I on the other hand have not made use of any ad hominems since anything I said regarding the nature of anyone is relevant to my argument which is in part that making these claims hurts people with a legitimate need for benzodiazepine medication (if you need to satisfy a pathological need to play victim then take placebos like SSRI's and complain about them). I simply wanted to put the truth out there for the sake of contrast. There are confounding variables that better explain the phenomena, and especially the chronological inconsistency of it.

 

I suspect you will take everything I say as an insult and consequently disregard it, or more likely attempt to vindicate yourself through censorship, but I am merely psychoanalyzing your reaction, and censorship only hides reality – it does not change reality. If you find that insulting then blame yourself for presenting yourself in such a way that made it so easy for me to do so. It should also be noted that you attacked me first with your hypocritical fallacy ridden threat (without which I would have never returned to this thread), I am just trying to make sense of the idiocy.

 

PS: Resorting to threats of, and calls for silencing, opposing views is not indicative of truth or good science rather it is reminiscent of the dark ages and I find such a backwards mentality to be contrary to the goals of transhumanism and instead a giant leap backwards. All things considered, your response and that of "Un chien", reek of cognitive dissonance.

 

PPS: I am not going to waste my time basking with the lesser men in this intellectually degrading cesspool. Continue wallowing in it together for all I care, but I am out. This conversation is over.

 

 

 

[VerdeGo]

A former coworker of mine claimed he drank a 12-pack of beer a day for years, and he had to recuse himself from his job to go to rehab for a month for his addiction. When he returned sober and swearing off alcohol, I asked how bad his withdrawal was, and he claimed there was none. I thought he was initially lying to me, but he sounded genuine. So just because you didn't suffer from withdrawal, doesn't mean the withdrawal myself and others have personally experienced didn't occur or isn't real. It is not my intention to discount your own experience, nor would I like to start a war of words. Each person has their own biological makeup. My point is to not discredit your experience, but to warn others who are heavily or regularly using benzos or other GABAergic drugs, that withdrawal is not only likely, but probably imminent. Some people, due to their own biological makeup and brain chemistry, are more susceptible to withdrawal than others. I'm keeping an open mind, but I also know what occurred to me was not placebo. And FYI at the time I was abusing Xanax as an escape, not because I already had anxiety. The anxiety that ensued (along with a host of physical and mental symptoms) was certainly not placebo, but were rather debilitating, and there are plenty of other experiences posted online and in medical journals that point to the real science of withdrawal when abruptly stopping longterm use of GABAergic drugs. 

 

So please keep an open mind in regards to others' experiences on the matter. I didn't even know what withdrawal was until I stopped GHB abruptly over ten years ago. And those withdrawal symptoms were the worst I've ever experienced. Alcohol and benzos were nearly equally as bad, and it's no coincidence all these substances affected GABA in the brain. After those experiences, I find it much easier to experience withdrawal from GABAergic substances, though other substances don't compare. 

 

You have your theory that this is all junk science, and benzo withdrawal itself doesn't exist, that it's in our heads. If you believe alcohol and other similar-acting substances on the brain can cause withdrawal, why are benzos excluded? Or do you not believe in any withdrawal being possible from any GABAergic substance, including alcohol withdrawal, based on your own experience with benzos?

[Un chien andalou]

Just because you can stop benzos without side effects doesn't mean that everybody else can. Also, you still haven't given me a single study to prove what you're saying.
You're saying that benzo PAWS is quackery, but the only quack here is you.

Edited by Un chien andalou, 15 April 2015 - 12:48 PM.

[IP3]

Anyone of you tried flumazenil? Or injection or in powder form from alibaba?

[Un chien andalou]

Anyone of you tried flumazenil? Or injection or in powder form from alibaba?

You cant, you need the machine they have in hospital to inject one drop every X seconds

 

But you don't need that, I've healed myself of benzo PAWS with just fluoxetine (Prozac). Prozac restores the level of allopregnanolone, after 2 months on it I had a complete healing. NSI-189 and (only later when the worst is over and you can tolerate dopaminergics) Selegiline also helped.

Bacopa as well.

[IP3]

I tried it few years ago. I used it per oz dissolved in water so i could get very precise dose (flumazenil have very limited water solubility). Flumazenil is bioavialable 17% this way. I was afraid that i will get seizure so first i get shot of vodka, i get drunked af....   everything was doubled in my eyes but i feel quite anxious.

Now i suffer from paws from diazepam (and i used it for 6 weeks in small dose, after years of abstinence from bdz) but i dont have flumazenil now.

 

It must be prozac or can be any other ssri? Now I am on 1,25 mg of diazepam every second day, because without it i would be usless at work. 

Edited by IP3, 14 May 2016 - 06:51 PM.

[Un chien andalou]

You took flumazenil with alcohol, which is a GABA agonist? What's the point? And you need to take it at least 6-7 sessions. It was placebo, it is not bioactive if not injected.

And yes, it must be Prozac, but you need to taper down benzos first, it has no point otherwise. Why are you in a benzo withdrawal thread if your still taking benzos?

[IP3]

They have distinct binding sites. I have used it multiple times. No, that wasnt placebo. And flumazenil is bioactive if indigested  taken sublingual or per rectum.

 

"Oral bioavailability of flumazenil is only 16% due to first-pass metabolism and hepatic clearance [17]; intravenous dosing is therefore the route of choice"

 

You confused it with naloxone.

 

Sources: http://www.thesotos..../flumazenil.pdf

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11132509

 

"Why are you in a benzo withdrawal thread if your still taking benzos?" And it is prohibited for me? :-P? I just wanna share my experience.

 

Could you give me sources about prozac and benzo Paws?

 

 

Edited by IP3, 14 May 2016 - 07:51 PM.

[Un chien andalou]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25498416
http://www.sciencedi...006899304011357

https://books.google...RPFDUsQ6AEIQzAE

 

Perfect dose is between 10 to 20 mg, I tried lower doses but they weren't noticeable, but I'm a CYP2D6 ultrametabolizer (23andme test) so I may need a higher dose than most.

[IP3]

Some times ago i found a report on internet that tianeptine reverse benzo Paws. Today i take it with baclofen (12,5 mg tianeptine) and i can confirm it. Same baclofen didnt have so pronounced effect on me.

[Un chien andalou]

I tried Tianeptine when in benzo PAWS but it's just a temporary effect, you get some relief from the slight u-opiod agonism but that's it. MOR receptors disinhibit GABA release so they feel good together, but it's not healing, if anything it is making it worse in the long-run. But it's nice every once in a while.

Believe me, the only thing that heals Benzo Paws is fluoxetine. Now, I don't have any references, but I feel like GABA paws are strongly related to neurosteroids unbalance. When you take Fluoxetine it restores allopregnanolone levels. Evidently they may be messed up by HPA axis dysregulation or glutamate rebound (or both together) that happen when you stop benzos after taking them for a lot of years (a slow taper helps a bit but depends on the dose you were taking - higher doses: higher risk of PAWS).

Honestly, I wish I had known this earlier, I only discovered it 1.3 yr after quitting benzos

Edited by Un chien andalou, 18 May 2016 - 09:37 PM.

[gamesguru]

Even lacking definitive gaba activity, things like cerebrolysin, dihexa, nsi, semax... may help.

Coulracetam and theanine show promise, especially with anxiety of social origin.

I would suggest gingko and ginseng which respectively inhibit gabaa and gabab. Bacopa has luteolin, a nonselective modulator. Rosmarinic acid inhibits gaba transaminase enzyme. There are other ways to boost gaba. For optimal effect, and not to make the withdrawal worse, combine with heavy dose antagonist.

Edited by gamesguru, 19 May 2016 - 02:07 AM.

[IP3]

Tianeptine stabilize HPA axis a do some things with glutamate.

 

Un Chien, what was your main symptoms of benzo Paws than was healed by fluoxetine?

 

 

[ColoradoPAWS]

Hey guys I was on this thread back in 2013 when I was very sick with PAWS, being 9 months off benzos . I noticed you have a lot of solutions that seem pretty difficult to get access . The alternative thread at benzo buddies discovered and continues to perfect the use of ginkgo to be totally cured . It takes about 12 weeks . Since the correct ginkgo is easy to get it seems like a much simpler option .

Anyway here the summary of what they found

As long as the benzo sufferer has been off benzos more than 30 days , is not taking any herbs teas , alcohol , weed or other meds that impact the gaba receptors , this usually ends up curing the subject in 3 to 4 months

Recommended brands are Jarrow or Natures Way GinkgoGold ( GinkgoGold is what I used ) 60 mg every 12 hours ( critical )

Every 4 weeks on ginkgo 1 week off

Will take 3 to 4 cycles of weeks on and 1 week off

No further ginkgo is needed after that point .

Hope that helps you guys

[IP3]

And what was your main symptoms cured by gingko?

[ColoradoPAWS]

Funny you should ask that I just pasted my notes on my first week and had actually listed all my sxs . I did this on benzo buddies if you are a member I can send you a link to read the whole thread with all the members , but it's 200 pages .

Anyway here was my first weeks notes which list my sxs .

Ok here was my first post on this site the day I started and listed all my sxs on page 43



Posts: 202
Gender: Male
I WAS CURED WITH GINKGO . I am back to help you
View Profile Personal Message (Online)

Re: Ginkgo biloba, reduces glutamate release while GABA antagonism
« Reply #426 on: July 05, 2013, 02:08:31 am »
Quote
Hi Devant and Adie I want to thank you and the other BB testers . I think Devant has really discovered a supplement that may help all sufferers of benzo hell. Those tapering and those of us who have tapered months or years ago .

I would like to participate as your 6th tester starting today. I have read this entire thread ( took me hours) and this looks so promising.
A little background on me.

I am 10 months off a 4 year klonopin habit. Accidental c/t for 1 week where I went into full crazy withdrawal for a week. Fully reinstated and then tapered. I never properly recovered from the ct-the damage was done.

At 10 months off I still feel sick. I have had no noticeable improvement since the six month mark where I was finally Able to sleep 5+ hours a night.

My current Sx's :
Anxiety
Paranoid
Nervousness
Insecurity
Lack of confidence
Agoraphobia
Inability to focus or concentrate
Inability to learn
Loss of creativity
Solution problem solving capabilities diminished ( need this for work I am a project manager and this is a core skill need for my job )
Depression
Irrational fear
Cognative fog
Lack of energy
Procrastination

Prior to benzo use I had none of these Sx's except for mild anxiety and some procrastination.

Like Adie I have found that caffeinated coffee actually helps my Sx's. I will pay attention if the coffee becomes an issue with the ginko.
I am currently not on any meds nor on any supplements. I am on a gluten free diet and can no longer tolerate any msg.

Today is day 1 of my ginko experiment. I am taking the standardized version recommended by Devant. 120 mg.

Devant- question for you. Are you stopping ginko at this point because you feel better or are you still planning to cycle on and off ? Do you feel you need to cycle off because of tolerance ?

Thanks I look forward to keep you posted on my progress. This first day I am a 5 on a scale of 1-10. Slight increase in anxiety but not sure if that is the ginko or excited about possibly finding a cure.


Progress day 2 ( page 44 of thread )

nkgo biloba, reduces glutamate release while GABA antagonism
« Reply #433 on: July 05, 2013, 03:01:55 pm »
Quote
Hi everyone just an update. Last night was the first night since starting the ginko. Anxiety increased significantly in the evening and I had trouble sleeping at my normal bed time. Took an extra hour to fall asleep. For any male suffers interesting side effect I was "aroused" this morning which is rare since the benzo withdrawal so I thought I would mention that. I also noticed I am more positive this morning . My anxiety is ok this morning and I have just taken my day 2 dose. I am also drinking my coffee this morning. Today is Friday and I am going to work from home today. It will be interesting to see how I handle going into the office starting Monday. I intentionally started this test now to have the worst of the anxiety hit over the weekend. I usually stress all weekend a about having to go into the office on Monday to the point that I sometimes get so worked up I vomit Monday morning before work. It seems to be the high cortisol levels that cause me to get sick Monday and sometimes other weekday mornings if I have meetings that day. I hope the ginko will help this. I already feel like my focus is slightly better than usual which is surprising after just one dose yesterday. That is encouraging.

Post 3

GINKO UPDATE:

DAY 1 - sx score 6
Sx steadily increased throughout the day. Difficulty getting to sleep. Took an extra hour to fall asleep.

Day 2 - sx score 8
Morning sx seemed baseline. Spiked in the afternoon. Anxiety increased in the evening. Was able to workout for 20 minutes ( 5 minute warm up and very slow treadmill jog at 5.0 speed for 15 minutes. )I felt like I was going to pass out, but the fact that I did it Ii think is connected to the ginko. Mentally exausted by the evening (very unusual ) and no trouble sleeping. Perhaps my brain healing taking energy...not sure.

Post 4 page 49


Posts: 202
Gender: Male
I WAS CURED WITH GINKGO . I am back to help you
View Profile Personal Message (Online)

Re: Ginkgo biloba, reduces glutamate release while GABA antagonism
« Reply #481 on: July 07, 2013, 03:23:49 pm »
Quote
GINKO UPDATE DAY 3

DAY 1 - Sx's score 6
DAY 2 - Sx's score 8

DAY 3 - Sx's score 7

Another very productive day today. Went shopping in the morning and cleaned a condo for 6 hours that we borrowed while I was sick and cleaned it to prepare for my in laws return. This included steam cleaning all the carpets so pretty intensive. I mention this that although my Sx's are worse, I am far more productive than usual. I attribute this to the ginko. Mentally exausted by evening. No problem falling asleep. My body was very sore last night-this may be more from being active with hours of cleaning rather than a side effect of the ginko.
So other than the significant improvement in productivity my Sx's feel worse than baseline, which I expected. My wife says my sense of Humour is coming back and I have a lot more energy. I also must be sleeping more restlessly during the night ( I am stealing all the blankets during the night.)

Post 5 ( page 50 )

Reply #490 on: July 08, 2013, 03:56:23 pm »
Quote
Ginko update day 4
Day1 -sx score 6
Day 2-sx score 8
Day 3-sx score 7
Day 4-sx score 7

Day 4 is a Sunday and I have to go back to work tomorrow. My anxiety is very high. Fell asleep ok but woke up early Monday morning with very high anxiety. Based on what I am reading I think I will need to dose in the morning and at night. My pills do not cut well so I plan to take my regular 120 mg dose this morning and another this evening. I am hoping this updosing combined with taking it in the morning and the evening will help upregulate my receptors and eventually improve my anxiety levels .The ginko is definitely helping but I don't think I'm going to see a reduction in symptons today ( day 5 Monday ). Perhaps the stress caused by work will delay improvement. Day 6 and 7 are full day intensive training at work. Last month I really struggled comprehending the intensive training. It will be interesting how I handle that day 6 and 7. Keep you posted.

Post from page 51 first full week on ginkgo

« Reply #500 on: July 10, 2013, 11:06:28 pm »
Quote
Ginko update day 7
Day1 -sx score 6
Day 2-sx score 8
Day 3-sx score 7
Day 4-sx score 7
•••begin increase dosage 120mg morning and 120mg evening
Day 5-sx score 6
Day 6-sx score 4
Day 7-Sx score 6

Mixed day. My anxiety continued to increase and was above baseline. I consider my baseline sx score to be 5. Was able to follow intensive training but not as well as yesterday. Had a hard time falling asleep last night, I had to force myself to go to sleep. So a few hours less sleep, but I also felt I slept deeper. Since off benzos I do not feel like I sleep deeply. Cog fog and anxiety went up today. I think it is upping the dose and sleep issues from dosing morning and night instead of just dosing in the morning. My guess is this may improve over the next few days as my body adjusts to the higher dose and the morning and night dose schedule. Will keep you posted. Dam I was so excited about my progress.

[Un chien andalou]

I also tried Ginkgo because it is a GABA-A antagonist, but it didn't help, it only made my anxiety a lot worse. Do not take Ginkgo if you have just quit benzos, I'd wait at least 6 months

[Junk Master]

I think the peptide BPC-157 is extremely interesting when it comes to "curing" PAWS.  Here's a quote from Metabolic Alchemy--

 

"A novel gastric pentadecapeptide BPC 157 with different beneficial activities and anticonvulsant effect interacting with GABAergic system could improve diazepam efficacy coadministered (10 microg/kg, 10 ng/kg i.p.) with diazepam (5.0 mg/kg i.p.) twice daily for 10 days, since diazepam chronic medication would otherwise predispose for diazepam- tolerance/withdrawal development (shorter latency to convulsion after convulsant). In diazepam chronically treated mice, it attenuated diazepam tolerance (provoked by later acute administration of diazepam together with convulsant) and postponed physical dependence/withdrawal effects (provoked by later administration of isoniazid). In tolerance assay, at 42 h after the end of conditioning regimen, shorter preconvulsive latencies than in healthy (non-diazepam conditioned) mice following isoniazid (800 mg/kg i.p.) (as hallmark of tolerance) were observed if diazepam (5.0 mg/kg i.p.) was again given acutely to mice previously conditioned with diazepam alone (use of picrotoxin 3.0 mg/kg i.p., as convulsant, with acute application of diazepam in previously diazepam conditioned mice did not lead to tolerance hallmark). This was completely avoided in diazepam+BPC 157 10 microg or diazepam+BPC 157 10 ng chronically treated animals. In physical dependence assay (isoniazid challenge assessed at 6, 14, 42 and 72 h after conditioning medication), when compared to diazepam non-conditioned healthy mice, in diazepam conditioned mice residual anticonvulsive activity was not present already at the earliest post-conditioning interval (i.e., not different latency to isoniazid-convulsions), whereas shorter preconvulsive latencies (as physical dependence/withdrawal hallmark) were noted in diazepam conditioned mice following isoniazid challenge at 42 h and at 72 h after end of conditioning treatment. In diazepam+BPC 157 10 microg- conditioned mice, a residual anticonvulsive activity (i.e., longer latency to isoniazid convulsion) was noted at 6 h post-conditioning, whereas shorter preconvulsive latencies appeared only at 72 h-post-conditioning period. In conclusion, taken together these data (lack of tolerance development (tolerance studies), prolonged residual anticonvulsive activity, and postponed physical dependence/withdrawal hallmark in diazepam+BPC 157 chronically treated mice) with common benzodiazepines tolerance/withdrawal knowledge, it could be speculated that BPC 157 acts favoring the natural homeostasis of the GABA receptor complex as well as enhancing the GABAergic transmission, and having a mechanism at least partly different from those involved in diazepam tolerance/withdrawal, it may be likely used in further therapy of diazepam tolerance and withdrawal."