86 replies to this topic

[thegron]

I should mention that Kava Kava, like benzos, can cause a paradoxical reaction in some individuals.

A couple of years ago, i purchased some pretty potent Kava liquid extract and ingested the recommended amount. I started to feel extremely anxious and dysphoric. It was horrible. It reminded me of the first time I took Clonazepam. I tried taking some Clonazepam but it just made it worse. It lasted well into the evening and by the next day, I was feeling much better. I never had that reaction again.

[xsiv1]

Wow, that is a very unique response. Clonazepam usually just makes me feel tired and then sleepy and then out lol. I can notice the effects of say, ativan much quicker and it's anxiolytic action to be more pronounced. One day I'll give some good Kava an honest shot.

[thegron]

It's actually pretty common, especially in the elderly.

[BlueCloud]

So, did anyone been on it long enough to notice up-regulation of GABA receptors ? I've often took it on an unregular basis, but I will take it everyday from now on until I finish my bottle ( 4 x 460mg capsules from "Eclectic Institute Kava" , in the evening )

[xsiv1]

So, did anyone been on it long enough to notice up-regulation of GABA receptors ? I've often took it on an unregular basis, but I will take it everyday from now on until I finish my bottle ( 4 x 460mg capsules from "Eclectic Institute Kava" , in the evening )

To be honest, I 've only purchased it from Gaia Herbs, and Now and found very little effect in either brand. I notice more from 150mgs of L-theanine. One time, I took maybe 4 to 5 capsules of the Now brand and felt rather shitty so I haven't taken it since. I'm not sure if I'm so used to Gaba supplements/herbs in the past that has this effect or if the products weren't great. I'm curious to see what result you come up with. When do you usually take it?

Also, does reverse tolerance to Kava necessarily indicate upregulation of any of the Gaba receptors?

Edited by xsiv1, 04 November 2013 - 09:43 PM.

[BlueCloud]

To be honest, I 've only purchased it from Gaia Herbs, and Now and found very little effect in either brand. I notice more from 150mgs of L-theanine. One time, I took maybe 4 to 5 capsules of the Now brand and felt rather shitty so I haven't taken it since. I'm not sure if I'm so used to Gaba supplements/herbs in the past that has this effect or if the products weren't great. I'm curious to see what result you come up with. When do you usually take it?

Also, does reverse tolerance to Kava necessarily indicate upregulation of any of the Gaba receptors?

I've tried the "NOW" brand too in the past and also found it useless ( for Kava. They do have some good products otherwise ), couldn't feel anything at all. The only one I get some effects from is the "Eclectic Institute". I tried their other pricier Kava product "Nakamal" but I found it actually less effective than the other cheaper one.
Overall, the effect is modest but is still better than a majority of anxiolytics supplements I've tried so far.
I usually take it in the evening, on empty stomach.

As for the reverse tolerance, the studies posted in the first page tend to confirm this phenomena, so I'm hoping this is real, wich is why I'm going to take it everyday.

[Dark Vision]

Well I've bought some kava (nice Vanuatu 40% extract) and have discovered that to get "krunk" you need quite high doses. Much higher than I've ever taken previously. Around 5 level teaspoons gives me a nice clear headed intoxication which lasts for about 2 hours, then departs without leaving any sort of hangover. I haven't noticed any sort of lasting anxiolytic effect yet, but I've only done this for a couple of nights. I probably won't keep getting krunk though because of the liver damage risk, but I'll do it once every few nights, and take smaller doses on other nights, and see what happens.

[xsiv1]

http://www.paradisekava.com/

^^^ I've researched it in the past but never did try this vendor although I've heard their Kava is amongst the best you can buy.

As for the Eclectic Institute brand, I found this poor review interesting..although it's not indicative of it's overall rating since most people seem to like it a lot. But perhaps he's onto something which would make it more effective. Seems like an experienced user nonetheless.


Weak. Powder isn't fine enough.

5 people found the following review helpful

Posted by Reviewer2110492 From California on Apr 16, 2010

Purchased at iHerb

I had very high hopes for this brand and product type. I saw that this was just ground up powder kava root, so I was hoping to get good results from it. There was a product called Kava King which had real micronized powder so that if you put them into capsules and took about 5 of them, the effects were amazingly relaxing. Unfortunately, I think Kava King went out of business, and nobody else is doing the same thing of making finely ground kava root. Yes, there are many who offer powder, but really, it's not ground up finely enough to give you good effects just by mixing the powder with water or swallowing them in pill form. In fact, with most of the kava root powder, the only way to get good effects is to use a strainer and squeeze the kavalactones out of the powder. I was hoping for the same effects as the Kava King brand with Eclectic because I assumed that if they're selling just root powder in capsule form, they must have ground up fine enough. But I saw that the powder isn't ground up finely enough so that compared to Kava King. So I took about 20 pills in one sitting with hardly any effects. The next time around, I took the same amount and strained it the traditional way, and finally, there was some noticeable kava effect. The point is that just grinding up kava root and taking it won't do much for you. The powder has to be EXTREMELY fine for it to have effect taking it pill form. I don't know about people who say they get extremely good effects taking just 2 capsules, but I can say that you'll get better effects just buying kava powder from reputable online vendors who specialize in kava root powder. As of today, I don't know of any vendor who actually sells micronized kava root powder. I only know a few vendors who call them micronized for marketing effect, but aren't actually. I also know those who actually sell dried kava juice prepared in the traditional way, and that is currently the only decent method of taking kava in pill form. Bottom line: This product is pretty weak in my experience. If it works for you, great, but you'd get much better deals preparing them in traditional ways, or buying them in traditional forms and then putting them in capsules yourself.

Edited by xsiv1, 05 November 2013 - 02:41 AM.

[BlueCloud]

I think the disappointment towards some brands when it comes to Kava has to do probably with the expectations. There are those who want the exact traditionnal experience wich involves also a certain feeling of drunkeness, numbness of the mouth and tongue, etc.. and those who are just seeking something that lowers overall anxiety without any more additional effects. I'm of the second group, as all I'm looking for is an anxiolytic effect that's strong enough to control my chronic anxiety, yet not (too) sedating and not interfering much with cognitive functioning, so that it could be used during the day.

Edited by BlueCloud, 05 November 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[xsiv1]

I agree. I'm in the same boat.

[Sinter]

Chronic administration of nicotine increases the density of neuronal cholinergic nicotinic receptors in cells and in rodent brain


something to think about.

[Raza]

I just want to say I no longer recommend this line of thought. Having learned more about the molecular biology of receptors, and about the techniques used in the studies I posted, I don't really expect this to work anymore. Sorry.

 

This is mostly because the studies I cited use outdated techniques to calculate the receptor density on the assumption that there are only thee degrees of freedom between that, ligand binding, ligand availability and receptor affinity. I think there's since been established to be more to it than that. Also, their findings are only about the acute reaction, and they're in vitro.

[BlueCloud]

Interesting. But then what could explain the reverse tolerance that have been reported quite often anecdotally ?

[protoject]

I just want to say I no longer recommend this line of thought. Having learned more about the molecular biology of receptors, and about the techniques used in the studies I posted, I don't really expect this to work anymore. Sorry.

 

This is mostly because the studies I cited use outdated techniques to calculate the receptor density on the assumption that there are only thee degrees of freedom between that, ligand binding, ligand availability and receptor affinity. I think there's since been established to be more to it than that. Also, their findings are only about the acute reaction, and they're in vitro.

 

What did you learn about the molecular biology of receptors and techniques used?

[medievil]

One anecdote shows it also upregulates gabab and reverses phenibut tolerance.

[tolerant]

This is an interesting topic. My actual nickname derives from the fact that I quickly develop tolerance to anything that actually works for anxiety. It would be invaluable to have something for anxiety that has a positive feedback loop, so to speak. The only such thing I have heard of is oxytocin (and I'm about to try some), but it's not a proven anxiolytic by any stretch of the imagination, and seems far more suitable to social anxiety/phobia rather than the generalised anxiety that I suffer from. I was excited to discover this thread, but then equally let down to find out that Raza had changed his mind upon further study.

[tolerant]

P.S. I have tried one brand of Kava (http://thompsons.co....2400mg-tablets/) and it certainly did not produce any immediate anxiolytic effects. Seeing the references in this thread to different brands and types of Kava are somewhat dated, can anyone recommend a source of Kava that really helped with their anxiety?

[xsiv1]

P.S. I have tried one brand of Kava (http://thompsons.co....2400mg-tablets/) and it certainly did not produce any immediate anxiolytic effects. Seeing the references in this thread to different brands and types of Kava are somewhat dated, can anyone recommend a source of Kava that really helped with their anxiety?

 

Heh, I should be tolerant1 then as well. Whatever works, does so for a while and then drops off. There's some talk about Fasoracetam upregulating Gaba B as well and when I asked if it was anxiogenic, the answer was no. 

 

I've heard this from an online friend whose also a Kava enthusiast that these guys have "top-notch" quality Kava. He prefers to make his into a tea, beverage whatever:

 

http://www.nakamalathome.com/

 

^^^ These guys are recommended by others who use Kava Kava on Reddit as well. 

Edited by xsiv1, 17 July 2014 - 04:08 PM.

[tolerant]

xsiv1, thanks for the heads up. You've saved me a lot of time I would have spent researching and feeling uncertain. Is it the kava ROOT that is the potent part of kava and has least potential of liver damage?

[xsiv1]

Yes, I do believe it's the root powder that is what you want. Although my friend prefers making it using the traditional methods, he did say that they have what's called instant Kava that easily mixes and dissolves in the beverage of your choice. As far as instants go, this site is still the best. Here's the link for that...https://www.nakamala...nt-Kava-Powder/

 

I might order some myself. 

[tolerant]

If only they shipped to Australia... I found out that Kava is a restricted import in Australia - you either need to bring it with you on a plane or obtain a permit to import it.

[tolerant]

There was a product called Kava King which had real micronized powder so that if you put them into capsules and took about 5 of them, the effects were amazingly relaxing. Unfortunately, I think Kava King went out of business, and nobody else is doing the same thing of making finely ground kava root. 

 

I just ordered some Kava King: http://www.iherb.com...=8&sr=null&ic=6

 

Don't know if it's the same Kava King the author of the review was referring to, but it's the only Kava product iHerb would allow me to ship to an Australian address.

[protoject]

I was wondering if some partial gaba agonists, or partial agonists of receptors that might act similarly, are likely to upregulate receptors at times?
just based on being a partial agonist?
or would this make no difference? It's just a wierd idea I got inserted into my brain at some point.

I cannot handle the taste of kava. It's really horrible. I find drinking the stuff is just nasty.
I was thinking of making an extract.

[Justchill]

I also use the Kava king product, it's cheap and relaxes you from dosages +6 grams (3 tablespoons). They have also a cocoa flavor. It's nice to relax after a stressfull day at work. I wouldn't use this every day though.. But this stuff works if you take enough of it. Carefull because it potentiates alcohol! Don't drink too much whilst on it.

[sativa]

I purchased some kava extracts from "kona kava farm" around 2011. I got the full spectrum kava extract paste and the 84% kavalactones extract paste. Both produce the characteristic tongue/mouth numbing effect - I usually take a pea sized amount sublingualy swishing it around for a little while before swallowing.

Both have effects which result in increased sociability and disinhibition.

Combined with alcohol, effects are potentiated. And, if you add kanna to the mix (a herbal SSRI and CB1 agonist) like I did, then be ready for a great overall experience (and perhaps increased hunger due to combined CB1 agonism from Kava and kanna!)

I have also made my own simple Kava Kava extract by putting finely powdered Kava Kava root into acetone (any solvent will do) and then after a few days I filtered and evaporated the acetone which left a potent golden paste.

Edited by sativa, 28 April 2016 - 07:30 PM.

[Galaxyshock]

I've been using Kava vanuatu blend occasionally. It's effects are pleasant, puts you into a state of clear-headed tranquility. In high doses I'd say it has entactogenic and even mild psychedelic qualities. Sometimes it produces slight agitation though, I think due to one of the kavalactones working as noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor.

 

But the taste of Kava is horrible, and I haven't gotten used to it, hell I think the reverse tolerance also applies to the taste as it's gets inreasingly more disgusting in repeated use. I mix the powdered Kava with sugary cocoa powder and drink it quickly.

 

What stuff combines well with kava? I tried Passion Flower and it seemed to increase the tranquility and further lifting mood, very pleasant. Alcohol was mentioned, which should be fine in somewhat low amounts. The same liver enzymes break down alcohol and kavalactones so the combination might put the liver under stress. I once drank quite a lot of alcohol after using Kava and the next day felt really bad and vomited.

[Galaxyshock]

Man I feel almost hypersocial. I've ingested 9 teaspoons of kava vanuatu blend powder, passion flower extract, ashwagandha extract (KSM-66) and some alcohol.

 

Feeling calm, euphoric but stable. Not like I would do something stupid under the influnce of these.