312 replies to this topic

[deh707]

@ deh: i dont know much about these, but isnt that too low a choline , when compared to the dose of racetams you are taking?

That's what I thought as well, until I realized that I only need that much to prevent the headaches. I can't have too much choline or I'll get severe brainfog and minor depression, easily.

Even just a single 300mg Alpha-GPC (normal dose) can cause that.

Sometimes I can go a day without any choline, sometimes I'll get a headache.

Some people don't need extra choline supplementation at all, it varies.

Sticking to a low 150mg Alpha-GPC dose once a day has been very consistent over the months, and I'll continue to do so until I notice headaches again, which will probably happen if I decide to start using Pramiracetam (even at low doses) again.

Edited by deh707, 04 August 2013 - 02:26 AM.

[theperfectratio]

Oh i tend to get depressed too with a higher alpha gpc dose. But i tend to think i wont be able to memorize as much, if i dont have enough choline.

Ive seen it mentioned in the forum,
but have you ever experienced (low) choline aka (High) piracetam headaches as well?
Do you know how one can differentiate that from ( high) choline aka (low) piracetam headaches?

Hope i made sense

Also have you ever tried using ALCAR as the only choline source instead of ALPHA GPC?

Edited by theperfectratio, 04 August 2013 - 04:28 AM.

[stponky]

Wow, that is a great post NoopMed. Thanks for taking the time to write in so much detail. I would also mention that exercise is also a good idea to mix into this stack.

[NoopMed]

Thanks for the update, noop.

I had a question. i remember you using pramiracetam and noopept towards the last month of your exams. Why would you not advise them now?

Also was your exam day stack any different considering you had a long ass exam to attend?

Yes my exam day stack was typically slightly larger doses of everything several hours before the test, with a booster dose right before starting the exam. If you troll back a ways, I'm sure it's listed there. I generally would wake up at take 2400mg of Piracetam, 500mg Choline, and 60mg of Ginkgo about 2.5 hours before the test. Then I would eat, drink coffee, chill out and look at notes. And 15 minutes before the exam I would take another 800mg Piracetam, 500mg choline bitartrate, and 60mg ginkgo... keeping coffee nearby through the test. I varied the stack from test to test to see what worked best for me, as the board exam was the ultimate priority and I wanted to have a exam day stack nailed down for that. You can find that listed in previous posts.

As I mentioned in the last post, I am using low dose Pramiracetam currently. I like it. As for Noopept, it's been a strange experience. I REALLY liked using it actually, and I used it during the last 2 weeks of board studying and for the test itself, but I had to stop. I experienced a very strange side effect that I have no explanation for. I started getting very significant nose (nares) and sinus pain and inflammation. I was NOT insuflating (snorting) the noopept, (was talking 10-20mg orally BID) but this happened EVERY time I took it for more than about 5 days. My nose would start to hurt, it would turn very red, it would swell, and basically look like a really, really bad acne outbreak, but with no focal comedones. I didn't believe it was related at all, and I still have no explanation. However, I've tried 5 separate trials of Noopept now and this has happened every single time, and it goes away when I stop using it, like clockwork. I don't usually get acne, and this was definitely something a bit more serious than your run-of-the-mill acne. I've never read about anything like this, and it was actually a bit scary and cosmetically very obnoxious! So for now I'm done with Noopept. It's possible there's some kind of contaminate in my batch (got it from Newstar), but this seems highly unlikely as well and everything else I've gotten from them has been great. I really have no explanation for this, which makes me uncomfortable and previously less inclined to share. It's simply an observation-- happens every time I try to take Noopept long term, and goes away a few days after I stop using it.

I see you are no longer using spark....any reason behind this? What are your thoughts on using a B-complex?

Actually, I do still use Spark occasionally. It's expensive, so only a few times a week. I more frequently drink coffee instead, so I listed that. Sorry for the confusion.

[NoopMed]

Thanks for your work NoopMed.
I too get tired after stimulant use, I still don't know how to fix it.

Do you take loratadine everyday? Is it safe? It is a great discovery of yours.

Maybe it helps with side effects and tiredness.

It is safe to use every day-- this is the recommendation for most people with pet, dust, and other household allergies. The purpose of loratidine in my stack is to basically counteract some of the peripheral cholinergic activity. It dries out the nose and saliva production significantly, and seems to calm my GI tract in a very minor way. (Significant levels of choline and racetams tend to make my nose runny sometimes, and also can make my voice a bit hoarse-- I believe due to excess stimulation of muscarinic cholinergic autonomic activity-- aka parasympathetic nervous system). It does not cross the blood brain barrier significantly-- the purpose of it's invention and the reason it is a better day time allergy medication than benedryl-- thus, it should not effect your perception of tiredness or other central nervous system phenomena.

Ceterizine (Zyrtec) is another option, but this peripheral histamine/cholinergic blocker is more specific to histamine than loratidine and may not achieve the desired effects-- though it may help more with Modafinil related nasal stuffiness and minor skin irritation.

[NoopMed]

@ deh: i dont know much about these, but isnt that too low a choline , when compared to the dose of racetams you are taking?

That's what I thought as well, until I realized that I only need that much to prevent the headaches. I can't have too much choline or I'll get severe brainfog and minor depression, easily.

Even just a single 300mg Alpha-GPC (normal dose) can cause that.

Sometimes I can go a day without any choline, sometimes I'll get a headache.

Some people don't need extra choline supplementation at all, it varies.

Sticking to a low 150mg Alpha-GPC dose once a day has been very consistent over the months, and I'll continue to do so until I notice headaches again, which will probably happen if I decide to start using Pramiracetam (even at low doses) again.

I have a classmate that has very successfully used high-dose Piracetam (~1600mg+ TID) and Ginkgo biloba all this last year, performing equally well on exams etc to myself (in fact, he got 2 points higher on the boards, punk!), and he has never used any choline source. He's well aware of the side effects and what to look for in regard to the need for extra choline, but he's been just fine without it. I think the use of choline and the source that works best for people may be one of the most variable aspects of racetam nootropic stacking. It's probably the most significant part one has to simply "figure out for themselves." For some reason, choline bitartrate seems to work better for me than Alpha-GPC, despite not making much sense pharmacologically at all. I've tested different combinations enough times to know that for sure, but it's certainly not true for everyone.

[MasterHerb]

Thanks for your work NoopMed.
I too get tired after stimulant use, I still don't know how to fix it.

Do you take loratadine everyday? Is it safe? It is a great discovery of yours.

Maybe it helps with side effects and tiredness.

It is safe to use every day-- this is the recommendation for most people with pet, dust, and other household allergies. The purpose of loratidine in my stack is to basically counteract some of the peripheral cholinergic activity. It dries out the nose and saliva production significantly, and seems to calm my GI tract in a very minor way. (Significant levels of choline and racetams tend to make my nose runny sometimes, and also can make my voice a bit hoarse-- I believe due to excess stimulation of muscarinic cholinergic autonomic activity-- aka parasympathetic nervous system). It does not cross the blood brain barrier significantly-- the purpose of it's invention and the reason it is a better day time allergy medication than benedryl-- thus, it should not effect your perception of tiredness or other central nervous system phenomena.

Ceterizine (Zyrtec) is another option, but this peripheral histamine/cholinergic blocker is more specific to histamine than loratidine and may not achieve the desired effects-- though it may help more with Modafinil related nasal stuffiness and minor skin irritation.

I take Zyrtec every night because it helps with my GI discomfort.....not sure why though.

[NoopMed]

Thanks for your work NoopMed.
I too get tired after stimulant use, I still don't know how to fix it.

Do you take loratadine everyday? Is it safe? It is a great discovery of yours.

Maybe it helps with side effects and tiredness.

It is safe to use every day-- this is the recommendation for most people with pet, dust, and other household allergies. The purpose of loratidine in my stack is to basically counteract some of the peripheral cholinergic activity. It dries out the nose and saliva production significantly, and seems to calm my GI tract in a very minor way. (Significant levels of choline and racetams tend to make my nose runny sometimes, and also can make my voice a bit hoarse-- I believe due to excess stimulation of muscarinic cholinergic autonomic activity-- aka parasympathetic nervous system). It does not cross the blood brain barrier significantly-- the purpose of it's invention and the reason it is a better day time allergy medication than benedryl-- thus, it should not effect your perception of tiredness or other central nervous system phenomena.

Ceterizine (Zyrtec) is another option, but this peripheral histamine/cholinergic blocker is more specific to histamine than loratidine and may not achieve the desired effects-- though it may help more with Modafinil related nasal stuffiness and minor skin irritation.

I take Zyrtec every night because it helps with my GI discomfort.....not sure why though.

The enteric nervous system ("Gut brain") that controls the GI tract is largly serotonin driven, but experiences a large degree of "master control" by the parasympathetic nervous system which uses cholinergic input for signalling. Zyrtec likely plays some part in toning down the autonomic input by the parasympathetic nervous system, Claritin should potentially act slightly more significantly in this regard. Any effects should be very minor, unless one has significantly increased the "parasympathetic tone" of their GI tract, which I sometimes believe may be the case when supplementing large amounts of choline and racetams. However, because the gut is so intrinsically managed by the enteric nervous system, it seems like any effects would be minimal. I don't notice much difference in regard to GI tract, but I do notice that when I stop taking racetams for a period of time my "regularity" slows down quite a bit. Perhaps TMI. Ha.

[NoopMed]

Thanks for the update! Do you think the NOS effects of Pramiracetam is of any concern? It seems to be one of the less studied racetams and I'm a bit concerned over my long term use of it. I really liked Pramiracetam, it gave me incredible short term memory within hours of dosage and I was able to memorize rote info very quickly. I'm just a bit concerned about it's safety but I recall reading a study on Pram that lasted 18 months which didn't state any negative effects from the drug... so it seems safe enough to use within an 18 month period.

I don't think NOS is a significant concern at low levels of Pramiracetam. If you were taking very large amounts, like 3000mg+ a day, I would start to worry. It should not be an issue at the recommended doses. I take significantly below the recommended doses. Acetyl-L-Carnitine also increases blood NO pretty significantly, though I'm not sure if it increases neuronal nitric oxide synthase (nNOS). Either way, I think this issue was exhausted elsewhere on this forum, and the consensus was that at reasonable therapeutic dosing for nootropic usage, NOS was very unlikely to be any kind of concern.

Wow, that is a great post NoopMed. Thanks for taking the time to write in so much detail. I would also mention that exercise is also a good idea to mix into this stack.

Absolutely agreed. I try to exercise, but free time to do so has been a rare commodity. I try to incorporate as much physical activity into my day as possible-- i.e. walk/bike for transportation, use the stairs instead of elevator, and short sets of calisthenics in the evening-- ie. pushups, situps, stretching, free weights.

[FutureOrtho]

Following. Great thread.

[dereknel]

pireactam makes me insanely hungry

[FocusPocus]

lol piracetam makes me manic.

I had a question. Does melatonin at night hurt memory consolidation? Hence is daily microdosing to help sleep (after a day of racetams etc) a bad idea?

Edited by FocusPocus, 23 August 2013 - 03:30 PM.

[NoopMed]

lol piracetam makes me manic.

I had a question. Does melatonin at night hurt memory consolidation? Hence is daily microdosing to help sleep (after a day of racetams etc) a bad idea?

Melatonin does not harm memory formation, and some studies/anecdotes even suggest it helps. Some people consider it a nootropic as well, though I've never researched or tried it for that purpose. Also, I used a little melatonin the night before my Step One exam to help me sleep well. I use it every once in a while when I have trouble (anxiety, usually) going to sleep. Regarding the Mania of piracetam-- you're probably a strong responder to it in that case. You could probably use it at a lower dose than most people. That "mania" sense will also likely settle out with chronic use. I used to experience a mild hypomania at times. For some reason, Oxiracetam provides me with a significant mania, almost feeling like weak MDMA at times... while I enjoyed it, it did not help with studying or exam performance on several trials for me.

pireactam makes me insanely hungry

Indeed it does. Likely through a cholinergic mechanism. Mild weight gain is a commonly reported side effect in several Piracetam studies. Keep those study snacks healthy and well-portioned!

Edited by NoopMed, 23 August 2013 - 11:39 PM.

[FocusPocus]

Thanks a lot for for the reply, Noopmed

I'm already mild bipolar 2, hence the hypomania (manifesting as something similar to ADHD while studying). Do you think all bipolar tendency people could be strong responders (more active glutamatergic system?)

So the bellshaped dose response curve of piracetam wouldnt apply to me, does it?


Stablemind user had told me that its safe to try Pramiracetam with its HACU activity, and try and avoid other racetams which have glutamatergic activity. What do you think about that?

[NoopMed]

Thanks a lot for for the reply, Noopmed

I'm already mild bipolar 2, hence the hypomania (manifesting as something similar to ADHD while studying). Do you think all bipolar tendency people could be strong responders (more active glutamatergic system?)

So the bellshaped dose response curve of piracetam wouldnt apply to me, does it?


Stablemind user had told me that its safe to try Pramiracetam with its HACU activity, and try and avoid other racetams which have glutamatergic activity. What do you think about that?

1.) I've never read any studies looking specifically at the effects of racetams on bipolar participants, but I can try to speculate a bit... I don't believe bipolar disorder has been characterized as specifically having a more active baseline glutamatergic system, but instead having shifting phases of increased and decreased brain activity. I've always thought of bipolar disorder as kind of like a seizure...since some of the most effective treatments for bipolar disorder are actually seizure medications... ie. Valproate, Keppra, Tegratol, Topramax, etc... In a seizure, there are focal points in the brain where signaling becomes unregulated and there is dyssynchronous firing that can potentially spread from that focal point over the entire brain into a generalized seizure, what we see is inappropriate muscle activity and sometimes the person has strange sensory experiences, etc. In bipolar disorder something like this is happening, but it appears to be involving the emotional and motivational centers of the brain. This analogy is not very good because there's probably MUCH more actually going on, but the point I'm trying to make is that the medications that seem to work well for treating bipolar disorder do so by selectively changing channel activity and changing the way neurons behave and respond to eachother. Keppra (AKA LevetiRACETAM) is one of the fastest growing drugs to treat both seizures and bipolar disorder. It is a derivative of Piracetam. Like Piracetam, it appears to increase the seizure threshold in patients, however; Levetiracetam does this much better than Piracetam and does not appear to have the cognition and memory enhancing effects-- in fact it appears to slow corpus collosal transmission (communication between the two halves of the brain). Long story short, any racetam supplement will probably interact with Bipolar disorder in a unique way-- possibly improving the symptoms or potentially interfering with or changing the effects of medication already established and stable in the patient's treatment. I don't think all people with bipolar disorder will be "strong responders" to Piracetam all the time, but I think that as their psychological disposition shifts and changes as can be expected of this disorder, their responsiveness to the Piracetam will shift as well. It might actually alleviate some of the symptoms of the depressive phase, but probably not help cognition much, and then increase the symptoms of the manic phase, or maybe even reduce them, who knows...that's kinda the way all the psych meds work-- much the same as Nootropics in general-- the Nootropics user must experiment (the Psychiatrist must try different medications with their patient), until an ideal balance is found that works in an individualized way for the user. Either way, I would be very cautious if you're taking any kind of medication with a similar mechanism of action to a Racetam to control your bipolar disorder. I have no idea how Lithium would be effected if you're using that, but if you're using a drug that is also indicated for seizures like the ones I mentioned above-- be aware that there could be some significant drug interactions taking place-- for example, increased or decreased effectiveness of your current medications. So tread lightly and be aware that racetam use could off-balance your current disposition with Bipolar Disorder (this goes for Seizure disorders as well).

2.) As far as a Bell-Shaped curve-- I doubt this would significantly change for you-- the efficacy curve for Racetams should still be the same shape, the difference would be what doses apply to the curve (ie. the whole thing may be populated with an average dose that is lower than it is for most people, for example every dose along the curve multiplied by 80%, for example, though only the user can really judge specifically).

3.) As for Pramiracetam-- it does have some indicated HACU activity, based on a lone study that is very old. I would like to believe that study, but I would like it more if there had been some replications of it. Either way, Pramiracetam ALSO has most of the same mechanisms of action as Piracetam based on the research that is available. It is more potent (lower dose needed), but appears to have similar efficacy (similar effect) to Piracetam on NMDA channel modulation, learning, memory, etc. So, it also still has significant glutamatergic activity. The added "bonus" of increasing HACU activity should facilitate the efficient firing of acetylcholine neurons bundled along with glutamatergic neurons-- which appears to be one of the primary ways by which the racetams improve cognition. HACU is very important, but unfortunately poorly researched at this point. ALSO, back to Bipolar, if you are taking Lithium for management, it might not be wise to use Pramiracetam. Pramiracetam has been known to increase nNOS (neuronal nitrous oxide synthase) which could potentially have deleterious effects at high levels. The combination of Lithium AND Pramiracetam has been shown to increase nNOS even more-- up to 40% of baseline. http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8557218 As an aside, I recently learned that Sulbutiamine increases HACU by about 10%. http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/4059305

Edited by NoopMed, 24 August 2013 - 03:41 PM.

[FocusPocus]

Hey very helpful post. Thanks!

Im not taking any drugs at the moment. Its pretty mild and i can manage depression very well (Modafinil 50mg helps) (100mg-->Hypomania)

Its the hypomania thats a bitch. I recently ordered some Lithium orotate supplements (120mg capsule containing 5mg elemental Li). Was hoping half a tab daily would help prevent the hypomania. And low dose Li helps in neurogenesis as well, it seems.

If that doesnt work, i'll prob try memantine. In fact lots of people use memantine to prevent tolerance to stimulants. So i guess it wouldnt slow me down like proper mood stabilizers (Pharmaceutical Li, Quietiapine etc)

Back to the study you quoted, is increasing NOS such a bad thing? Forgive my ignorance. But, isnt that involved in memory formation and learning at the hippocampus? A boost given by a Prami + very low dose Li might not be deleterious after all?

[NoopMed]

Hey very helpful post. Thanks!

Im not taking any drugs at the moment. Its pretty mild and i can manage depression very well (Modafinil 50mg helps) (100mg-->Hypomania)

Its the hypomania thats a bitch. I recently ordered some Lithium orotate supplements (120mg capsule containing 5mg elemental Li). Was hoping half a tab daily would help prevent the hypomania. And low dose Li helps in neurogenesis as well, it seems.

If that doesnt work, i'll prob try memantine. In fact lots of people use memantine to prevent tolerance to stimulants. So i guess it wouldnt slow me down like proper mood stabilizers (Pharmaceutical Li, Quietiapine etc)

Back to the study you quoted, is increasing NOS such a bad thing? Forgive my ignorance. But, isnt that involved in memory formation and learning at the hippocampus? A boost given by a Prami + very low dose Li might not be deleterious after all?

Yeah, you're right a small amount is just fine and indeed helpful, which is why I said "potentially." At high levels nNOS is associated with neuron apoptosis, which was a concern discussed at length in another thread on here. Low dose wouldn't be concerning and even moderate doses probably pose no risk at all. It's when someone takes high dose lithium for bipolar disorder and concurrently tries out something like 4,000mg of Pramiracetam where I would be very concerned. Haha.

[FocusPocus]

Lol, Not going to afford that anyway right now

Hey How sure are you that gingko is effective!?

Redditors scorn at the mention of the word gingko. lol.

And the JAMA study that proved its not effective in preventing Alzheimers?

[FocusPocus]

Hey Noop,

Forget my previous post,

I've started to have severe itching from modafinil. Not to the extend of SJS, but still irritating.

I have a lot of desloratidine lying around at home.

WOuld a 5mg desloratidine serve the same purpose as loratidine 10mg?

(how does desloratidine compare to loratidine as far as cns penetration is concerned? From what i searched, i think its better than Loratidine. I was wondering why you stuck to loratidine)

Please reply,

Itchy me

Edited by FocusPocus, 05 September 2013 - 02:01 PM.

[NoopMed]

Hey Noop,

Forget my previous post,

I've started to have severe itching from modafinil. Not to the extend of SJS, but still irritating.

I have a lot of desloratidine lying around at home.

WOuld a 5mg desloratidine serve the same purpose as loratidine 10mg?

(how does desloratidine compare to loratidine as far as cns penetration is concerned? From what i searched, i think its better than Loratidine. I was wondering why you stuck to loratidine)

Please reply,

Itchy me

Clarinex should also work, but if the itching is that severe you should stop taking Modafinil. It is unlikely to get better with time, and antihistamines will only work to a limited extent. I've never tried clarinex (desloratidine). I doubt that it's better than loratidine, since it's just the major metabolite of the latter. I've tried Ceterizine (Zyrtec), which is a bit more novel and many people report it to be better. I found it did not work as well for me. I'll let the pharmacists investigate what is newer and "potentially" better. I like to stick with what works.

[nickdino]

hi, i'm curious why you take cod liver oil, do you recommend that over something like omega3 enteric coated by lef? also, i've been trying really hard to get a list of essential supplements. You're basics if you will, i was hoping that a mult could do most of that in a convenient way but it seems that there isn't a multi that can do that. So now i'm thinking of ordering my essentials seperately but it's so difficult to find concensus on what to take.

for now, i regard omega3, vitamins (vit d-3, vit k, vit b blend and vit a get mentioned a lot on this forum) and minerals (zinc, magnesium and chrome get mentioned a lot) as essentials, could you give me some recommendations on that? i'm also gonna try a probiotic, either http://www.iherb.com...60-Capsules/124 or http://www.vsl3.com/ . And later on in my search i may add a nootropic stack, as minimal as possible though.

best thing would be if this community would come up with an overview of beneficial supplements, and then grouped as essentials-nootropics- etc. somewhat like the periodic table of elements.

[Wu Hang]

Hey NoopMed, awesome thread! Very reasonable, intelligent suggestions...love it.

If you have a chance I would love to hear your thoughts on the dangers of this combo...d-cycloserine + tDCS. In studies 100mg D-CYC, taken two hours before stimulation, has been shown to prolong the effects of anodal tDCS (applied for 13 minutes) from 1 hour normally to over 24 hours in the motor cortex. Tbh, I can't believe they tested this in humans because it seems like the perfect recipe for excitotoxicity and apoptosis. However, anodal stimulation has been shown to double learning speed in multiple placebo controlled double blind studies and is the method used by DARPA in accelerated sniper training. Naturally, 24 hours of doubled learning speed (tDCS over the dlpfc increases WM, therefore possibly IQ esp in conjunction with dual n-back training) sounds pretty good but telling my entire dlpfc to commit suicide is unappealing! Your thoughts and extensive background knowledge would be greatly appreciated.

Main Source: Oxford Handbook of Transcranial Stimulation (2008) by Eric Wasserman...Chapter 17 (Michael A. Nitsche). And of course, there are numerous pubmed articles on the idea by Nitsche and others.

I haven't really heard of this before, but the science behind it seems pretty developed and reasonable. Deep Brain Stimulation has certainly proven pretty miraculous for patients with Parkinson's, depression, etc, while stimulating elements of the basal ganglia mostly. I imagine this anodal tDCS to the prefrontal cortex would probably provide some interesting boost to active learning and exam performance, but it seems like it would be hard to accurately stimulate all levels of the brain involved in cognition d/t differences in neuron orientation and electrical field intensity with depth. Contact pads for stimulation also seem very imprecise. I wonder if anyone has ever tried deep brain stimulation of the hippocampus... or more interestingly to the nucleus basalis of Meynart, homeland of acetylcholine.

Deep stimulation would easily cause epilepsy which is exactly the reason why we can't have neural implants already despite of the fact that it has been available since the 70s.

tDCS over prefrontal area is generally enough to trigger an accelerated learning experience because prefrontal cortex is related to motor planning and information processing, which is why DARPA only interested in studying the prefrontal cortex. My hypothesis is that one can't simply stimulate hippocampus (or for that matter, thalamus which is responsible for neural input and output) because they are too sensitive and complex to mess with. I am looking into the D-CYC+ tDCS combo right now, and will reporting back when I actually try the combo

[Godof Smallthings]

I have been intrigued by the D-cycloserine + tDCS combination as well, but a pertinent question (apart from all the safety concerns - excitotoxicity, mania, exhaustion?), what exactly would you DO with 24h straight of accelerated neuroplasticity?

If I were to try this I would make sure I was in perfect mental balance beforehand, and had a clear plan of exactly what activities I would engage in, and also a clear plan of how to avert potential undesirable effects.

[TVO]

Bump

[NoopMed]

Been a while, just wanted to check in...
I'm much, much busier than 1st and 2nd year of med school, so not very much time to write these days unfortunately.

It has been about 16 months since I started this whole experiment, and I'm still using roughly the same core stack currently without ill effect and continuing to benefit. Since nootropic inception, my academic performance soared, the boards were crushed, and now I'm coping changed priorities. The amplitude, depth, and creativity of cognition counts for much less on the floors as a 3rd year medical student. What seems to count most is efficiency, endurance, and humility. The prior two can be aided by certain stimulant supplements, but at the expense of the latter... (i.e. stimulants don't make a person the most humble, relaxed, and comforting person to be around.) I still enjoy the racetam-predominant approach in regard to the stability of mood, enhancement of memory, and general boost to cognition it continues to provide. I still haven't found that ideal mix of left-brained efficiency and drive that would give an edge in my current challenges. Sometimes I feel that Piracetam can draw me down tangential lines of thinking/reasoning that slow me down somewhat... However, I just so happen to enjoy thinking outside the box and I often provide better patient care as a result... just not always the first to hand all my progress notes in... :D In the end, I'm not sure if I want "more left brain edge" anyways, as that seems to come with a certain sacrifice to my generally laid-back personality... at least that seems to be the case when I examine some of my peers that seem to have the tactless efficiency of the modern doctor down to a science. Anyways... I digress, as usual. Things are still going well, and here's the current core stack:


-1200-1600mg Piracetam with Breakfast and Lunch
-60mg Ginkgo biloba with Breakfast and Lunch.
-Choline bitartrate 500-800mg with Breakfast and Lunch.
-2-4 Cups of coffee per day, usually 1 in the morning and 1-2 with lunch. 1 more if I'm working a night call.

*Still using ALCAR 500mg BID 1-2 times per week, usually Friday and Saturday.
*Still using Noopept for about 1-1.5 weeks at a time when needed. Generally as a ramp up to prepare for a shelf exam.

As I have a menagerie of various other nootropics in my possession I occasionally toss something in the stack when I'm feeling adventurous or when indicated based on my own micromanagement.


As an aside:

Apparently PRL-8-53 and IDRA-21 are now available from a few vendors... You'll find them discussed elsewhere on this site, and they sound very promising. I read about them when people on Longecity were trying to find a way to have them custom synthesized. The studies supporting them seem very limited and dated, but also as I said... promising.

Let me know if any of you have been using them for studying, etc!

[PTShapeShifter]

SO great to hear again from you, NoopMed! Your consistent nootropic stack success & always thoughtful posts here are very inspiring.

I have been evolving my own piracetam based nootropic stack with 750 mg Piraetam BID, 250 mg choline & Inositol in am only, 200 mg Phenylehtylamine & 120 mg Swanson time release Ginko, am only and occasional use of 20 mg Phenylpiracetam ( although not often as it can bring on brain fog ), Krill Oil 500 mg DHA 100 mg EPA Oils, and a few others cycling in a personally effective manner while studying a Med School paced Physical Therapy Doctoral Program course load.

The BIGGEST excitement, though is the last 10 days use of 5-8 mgs of PRL-8-53 BID. This compound is nothing short of AMAZING for improved cognitive processing speed, verbal short term memory enhancement -- unofficial personal estimate of 60% to 80% ST memory boost for me in past week and a half that feels so far to have a very positive, cumulative memory enhancement.

As for sides, I find very little if any stimulating effect even as my cognitive functions improve. I check my heart rate closely and no changes there. Also no negative impact on sleep which is so great! I look forward to final exams coming up with PRL-8-53 now added to my stack.

Studies on PRL-8-53 are from the 1970s with only one or two human trials, but so far, using their low 5 - 8 mg I am experiencing very positive results.

Anyone else started PRL-8-53 yet? Would like to hear your experience with it.


Again, so great to have your participation here, NoopMed!
PTShapeShifter

[PTShapeShifter]

Here's the definitive Rhesus Monkey study from 2004 on IDRA-21, the positive allosteric compound that modulates the glutamate AMPA receptor for memory enhancement, at least very effective in monkeys, young & old. Very significant results with Rhesus monkeys... not very clear from dose response data on how best to extrapolate to human pops. dosages... Makes me very hesitant to try without hearing more about other's experimental use & benefits & sides of IDRA-21.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/14654093


Would appreciate hearing from anyone who is doing research with IDRA-21 in human case studies.

[Godof Smallthings]

PTShapeShifter: Do you use Cambridge Brain Sciences? Would be very interesting to see your score development on the memory tests (and all the others, if you have the time) pre- and post- PRL-8-53.

[NoopMed]

The BIGGEST excitement, though is the last 10 days use of 5-8 mgs of PRL-8-53 BID. This compound is nothing short of AMAZING for improved cognitive processing speed, verbal short term memory enhancement -- unofficial personal estimate of 60% to 80% ST memory boost for me in past week and a half that feels so far to have a very positive, cumulative memory enhancement.

As for sides, I find very little if any stimulating effect even as my cognitive functions improve. I check my heart rate closely and no changes there. Also no negative impact on sleep which is so great! I look forward to final exams coming up with PRL-8-53 now added to my stack.

Studies on PRL-8-53 are from the 1970s with only one or two human trials, but so far, using their low 5 - 8 mg I am experiencing very positive results.

Anyone else started PRL-8-53 yet? Would like to hear your experience with it.


Again, so great to have your participation here, NoopMed!
PTShapeShifter

Alright, I've ordered some... Sounds too good to be true, but I'll give anything a reasonable try. Any other specifics on dosing that you've been using? ie with food or without, have you tried it on its own or always with the stack, notice any adverse effects? Sounds like some people have been reporting a flushing sensations or hot flashes... Given the small dose I'm tempted to cap it with some noopept, sunifiram, and alpha GPC for a single super pill, hahaha! Maybe even toss in some IDRA 21...

[Lemon.]

dang dude, Ginkgo and Rhodiola did NOTHING for me.

screw herbal supplements !!!!!!!!!!! SCREW THEM, they are useless AND full of poo!!!

LIKE, COME THE HELL ON, LETS ROCK ALL !!!

OK I WILL CONTINUE:

GENERALLY, all these "small" supplements, multivitamins, ETC etc are MAINLY USELESS.
YOU MUST, AND I WILL CONFIRM,

HAVING;

DIET,SLEEP AND EXERCISE in check, ARE what you FIRST need to CONFIRM!

Then, DO NOT TAKE THE VERY LOW DIRECTION (GOING BACK THE WAY) and choosing herbal supplements, multivitamins that would work better than a script medication .

Look, WHAT I am trying to say is, have a good diet,sleep,exercise and GET A PROPER DRUG if want drugs. (supplement).
NOW, of course that is my opinion, and I take your opinion also, but would just like for you if you may, reflect on mine.

THANK YOU.

have a wonderful night all!!!