312 replies to this topic

[FocusPocus]

Just a question that crossed my mind.

 

Since you're using L-tyrosine daily (Spark), arent you worried about seratonin depletion?

 

 

Administration of 5-HTP alone is contraindicated for 

depression and any process involving a catecholamine 

component due to its ability to facilitate depletion of these 

neurotransmitters. 5-HTP should be administered carefully in 

patients because depletion of dopamine and norepinephrine 

may exacerbate existing disease processes or precipitate 

onset of catecholamine-related problems.

 

Administering serotonin or dopamine amino acid 

precursors should never involve administration of only one 

amino acid. Improperly balanced amino acid precursors are 

associated with decreased efficacy, increased side effects, 

and depletion of the nondominant system.

 

Source: http://neurosupport....indications.pdf

 

I just tried some 5htp last night and I found that it cured my depression from Ltheanine use. This made me research a lot about daily use and found the above paper and also heart valve issues assoc with 5htp. 

 

Doesnt this mean that supplementing one AA will downregulate the other system?

 

Arent you concerned about the daily L-tyrosine use downregulating your seratonin system? And wont the EGCG downregulate it further?

 

I've been using L-tyrosine daily for sometime and this worries me a lot, that I should consider seratonin augmentation too. And increasing seratonin usually makes me apathetic, though it cures my depression.

 

Is there anyway in which we can supplement both systems without downregulation of any?

 

 

Its cool if you're busy with ERAS and cant reply soon.

Edited by FocusPocus, 14 September 2014 - 04:10 AM.

[pbandy1]

where are you getting this l-tyrosine causing a down-regulation of your serotonin system? I haven't recalled any studies suggesting this. Not to mention, if you are eating a lot of protein throughout the day, you are eating a lot of l-tyrosine as well. A cup of cottage cheese has 2 grams of the stuff. In 5 ounces of chicken, there's a 1 gram of l-tyrosine.

[epixs]

Man this is a great thread. Keep us posted noopmed, I'm currently a M1 and basically on the same  road as you! I remember reading this thread like a year or two ago. 

[FocusPocus]

where are you getting this l-tyrosine causing a down-regulation of your serotonin system? I haven't recalled any studies suggesting this. Not to mention, if you are eating a lot of protein throughout the day, you are eating a lot of l-tyrosine as well. A cup of cottage cheese has 2 grams of the stuff. In 5 ounces of chicken, there's a 1 gram of l-tyrosine.

 

I quoted the part of the original paper in my original post with the link.

[NoopMed]

Fortunately (or unfortunately for those with Parkinson's disease), the process by which L-Tyrosine is converted into neurotransmitters is highly regulated and subject to a bottle-neck at the Tyrosine hydroxylase enzyme.  Very little Tyrosine you consume will actually make it into your brain as an active neurotransmitter-- ie Dopamine, (or further down the metabolic pathways to Norepinephrine, or Epinephrine).  This is why people with Parkinson's disease must take L-DOPA to increase their dopamine levels and reduce their symptoms.  If they take just Tyrosine, not enough can be readily converted to Dopamine to make any noticeable difference.  Additionally, most of this Tyrosine, and even most of the L-DOPA taken orally, is converted to these neurotransmitters or used in protein synthesis in the peripheral systems before even crossing the blood brain barrier, as Tyrosine hydroxylase and the other enzymes in this pathway are also found throughout the body-- not just the brain.  This is why Parkinson's patients must also take Carbidopa in addition to their L-DOPA, since the Carbidopa is able to block up the enzyme outside the brain and allows for enough L-DOPA to actually make it into the brain for symptomatic relief.

 

Consuming Tyrosine, much like consuming Choline bitartrate/citrate/etc or another neurotransmitter precursor, is simply providing an ample pool of raw resources to pull from if you're lucky enough to get your downstream processes upregulated enough to demand more of these raw resources.  If you're doing something that might use a lot of dopamine, such as the CILTEP stack, or using a lot of cocaine... maybe the extra Tyrosine would be useful for keeping the balance and helping replete a dopamine deficit.  Caffeine also causes significant spikes in dopamine levels, which is why I like it as part of my highly caffeinated energy drink.  :-)

 

5-HTP is also just a precursor to Serotonin, but from my understanding, there is a less of a enzymatic bottleneck in this case, so it's easier to cause a serotonin spike by taking 5HTP.  I've never found increased Serotonin to help me cognitive function, nor really improve my mood.  It just makes me sleepy and sometimes upsets my stomach-- probably the serotonin working on the enteric nervous system.

 

So in conclusion:  Yes, taking very large amounts of any one neurotransmitter or precursor can deplete the levels of other NTs.  Large amounts of something like 5-HTP, which is very easily made into serotonin, will deplete the other NTs far more quickly than something like Tyrosine which encounters a bottleneck.  Taking large amounts of L-DOPA, however; skips this bottleneck and could potentially cause a symptomatic decrease in serotonin.  Finding the right balance is very difficult, and likely varies highly from person to person.  In the clinic, this can certainly be the case with L-DOPA, and patients usually require frequent monitoring and dose adjustments to find the balance between a therapeutic dose and adverse effects.

 

If you're looking for a cheap, over the counter way to bump your Dopamine levels, some people try Mucuna pruriens-- a south american legume with a relatively high concentration of L-DOPA as well as some 5HTP and several other interesting chemicals.  Some people use this as a nootropic, and it has been shown to be an effective complementary/alternative therapy for Parkinson's disease.  I found it to significantly elevate my mood, but it did not help with my memory or focus.  It also gave me some mild cramps-- probably the serotonin, as 5-HTP also does this to me.

Edited by NoopMed, 14 September 2014 - 12:44 PM.

[noos]

I am surprised at how much NoopMed likes gingko. Do you all have good results with it? Are its beneficial effects due to improved circulation and norepinephrine? Does it affect anxiety?

Do you use any special brand of ginkgo NoopMed?

I notice more effect from ginseng or guarana, but reading this makes me want to try ginkgo again. Thanks.

Edited by noos, 20 September 2014 - 04:45 AM.

[NoopMed]

I've had great, albeit subtle, results with Ginkgo over a very long period of time.  It is the one nootropic herb that I have taken consistently throughout this experiment.  I've taken it nearly every day for the last 2.5 years, with a few breaks here and there.  I've also adjusted my dose periodically.    It has the fewest side effects, and I always notice the difference if I stop taking it after 3-4 days-- mostly as a decrease in mood, motivation, and working memory.  I've talked about various proposed neurologic mechanisms of Ginkgo ad nauseum in this thread in the past, so I won't go over it all again-- but yes, studies I've cited previously have shown a net increase in synaptic NE with longterm use, and also show improved circulation.  Preforntal cortex increases in Dopamine are also probably important, as executive function and cognition are greatly effected by this area of the brain.  Acetylcholine esterase activity is inhibited by Ginkgo without a change in AChE RNA expression being upregulated, which could suggest improved memory formation through increased acetylcholine without risking longterm increase in AChE.  There have also been arguments for antioxidant activity and increases in generalized longevity and decreased rates of normal cognitive decline seen with aging.  It has not been shown to be particularly effective in treating Alzheimer's, and those studies resulted in Ginkgo getting a bad rap by many people because that was one of it's original claims, however; this is not an herb that one should expect to make any kind of dramatic short term impact on cognitive function.  I use it as more of a long-term brain health supplement, and for whatever it's worth, I've seen my academic performance steadily increase relative to my peer-group-mean over the 2.5 years I've taken this herb... and trust me, everyone in this peer group is struggling tooth n' nail to pull ahead of their own average performance.

 

I've tried several brands and doses.  I like Nature's Bounty 60mg or 120mg, NOW 60mg, and I've also tried BulkSupplements Pure Ginkgo Biloba Leaf Extract Powder for mixing into various stacked capsules.  

(My favorite herb stack capsule with this stuff so far as been an approximate 120mg Ginkgo, 250mg Bacopa, and a light sprinkle of Huperzine A 1% extract from LiftMode-- this stuff is very difficult to measure, so I keep it very minimal and believe I'm somewhere below the 100mcg recommended dose-- no side effects with a partial "microscoop" spoon and I do notice a significant boost to working memory and verbal efficiency-- presenting a patient history, I begin to verge on "Auctioneer" speed and accuracy, which seems to impress attending physicians.)

 

Examine.com has put together a very nice summary about Ginkgo that has even been updated pretty recently with new studies, and I recommend checking that out for a pretty thorough run-down of Ginkgo if you don't wanna troll through this thread and many others to consolidate the multiple proposed mechanisms of action:

http://examine.com/s...iloba/#summary4

Edited by NoopMed, 20 September 2014 - 02:26 PM.

[Babychris]

NoopMed I remember this thread!  Where did your avatar has passed ?

[noos]

ThanksNoopMed, excellent. i just bought some 80 mg ginkgo extract tablets to try. The examine article is quite good. The only problem could be

 

Bilobalide appears to be a GABA_A receptor (α1β2γ2L) competitive antagonist with an IC₅₀ value of 4.6+/-0.5µM.^[96]

 

but maybe it is not significant for anxiety as there is also mention of an anxiolytic action

 

Supplementation of EGb-761 appears to be able to reduce symptoms of anxiety in youth, although it may require a few weeks to work optimally

 

Edited by noos, 21 September 2014 - 12:23 AM.

[epixs]

I found this very interesting, full study here:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10607161

 

 

[ABCD]

Hi Noopmed,

 

I have to clear a very rigorous Maths exam for my masters degree.

It involves studying very complex concepts and questions for 8 hours daily for at least 10 months.

I literally have to frown and study its so complex.

 

I have tried many nootropics only three have helped so far Modafinil, Alcar and choline..

 

MODAFINIL it rose my liver enzymes 

 

ALCAR increased my weight enormously after 3 months of daily usage 

 

Choline caused me whiteheads all over my face 

 

Current Regime

 

-->400-1000 mg of piracetam with 1.5-2.5 gram of choline(piracetam prevents whiteheads and excess choline mania)

--> B-vitamins and Fish oil

 

I like your Spark Energy Drink(Not Affordable).I Think This is exactly what i need because i think all my neurotransmitter gets sucked from deep concentration and stress thinking.Do you know any multivitamin from iherb that has neurotransmitters precursor along with it.

 

And do you recommend any other nootropic that could be of any help in my case as My current Regime is not much useful

 

Thanks And Regards

 

[FocusPocus]

I've had great, albeit subtle, results with Ginkgo over a very long period of time.  It is the one nootropic herb that I have taken consistently throughout this experiment.  I've taken it nearly every day for the last 2.5 years, with a few breaks here and there.  I've also adjusted my dose periodically.    It has the fewest side effects, and I always notice the difference if I stop taking it after 3-4 days-- mostly as a decrease in mood, motivation, and working memory.  I've talked about various proposed neurologic mechanisms of Ginkgo ad nauseum in this thread in the past, so I won't go over it all again-- but yes, studies I've cited previously have shown a net increase in synaptic NE with longterm use, and also show improved circulation.  Preforntal cortex increases in Dopamine are also probably important, as executive function and cognition are greatly effected by this area of the brain.  Acetylcholine esterase activity is inhibited by Ginkgo without a change in AChE RNA expression being upregulated, which could suggest improved memory formation through increased acetylcholine without risking longterm increase in AChE.  There have also been arguments for antioxidant activity and increases in generalized longevity and decreased rates of normal cognitive decline seen with aging.  It has not been shown to be particularly effective in treating Alzheimer's, and those studies resulted in Ginkgo getting a bad rap by many people because that was one of it's original claims, however; this is not an herb that one should expect to make any kind of dramatic short term impact on cognitive function.  I use it as more of a long-term brain health supplement, and for whatever it's worth, I've seen my academic performance steadily increase relative to my peer-group-mean over the 2.5 years I've taken this herb... and trust me, everyone in this peer group is struggling tooth n' nail to pull ahead of their own average performance.

 

I've tried several brands and doses.  I like Nature's Bounty 60mg or 120mg, NOW 60mg, and I've also tried BulkSupplements Pure Ginkgo Biloba Leaf Extract Powder for mixing into various stacked capsules.  

(My favorite herb stack capsule with this stuff so far as been an approximate 120mg Ginkgo, 250mg Bacopa, and a light sprinkle of Huperzine A 1% extract from LiftMode-- this stuff is very difficult to measure, so I keep it very minimal and believe I'm somewhere below the 100mcg recommended dose-- no side effects with a partial "microscoop" spoon and I do notice a significant boost to working memory and verbal efficiency-- presenting a patient history, I begin to verge on "Auctioneer" speed and accuracy, which seems to impress attending physicians.)

 

Examine.com has put together a very nice summary about Ginkgo that has even been updated pretty recently with new studies, and I recommend checking that out for a pretty thorough run-down of Ginkgo if you don't wanna troll through this thread and many others to consolidate the multiple proposed mechanisms of action:

http://examine.com/s...iloba/#summary4

 

 

Hows the Bacopa experiments going on? Is that a 20% bacosides content? (the 250mg you're using)

 

I find that Bacopa with its mild anti dopaminergic action greatly diminishes the stimulant effects of caffeine. I need more than double the same amounts of coffee for feeling the same again, while on bacopa. Examine.com talks about this too.

 

I was wondering if you experience the same or if you found some hack through this?

[NoopMed]

 

I've had great, albeit subtle, results with Ginkgo over a very long period of time.  It is the one nootropic herb that I have taken consistently throughout this experiment.  I've taken it nearly every day for the last 2.5 years, with a few breaks here and there.  I've also adjusted my dose periodically.    It has the fewest side effects, and I always notice the difference if I stop taking it after 3-4 days-- mostly as a decrease in mood, motivation, and working memory.  I've talked about various proposed neurologic mechanisms of Ginkgo ad nauseum in this thread in the past, so I won't go over it all again-- but yes, studies I've cited previously have shown a net increase in synaptic NE with longterm use, and also show improved circulation.  Preforntal cortex increases in Dopamine are also probably important, as executive function and cognition are greatly effected by this area of the brain.  Acetylcholine esterase activity is inhibited by Ginkgo without a change in AChE RNA expression being upregulated, which could suggest improved memory formation through increased acetylcholine without risking longterm increase in AChE.  There have also been arguments for antioxidant activity and increases in generalized longevity and decreased rates of normal cognitive decline seen with aging.  It has not been shown to be particularly effective in treating Alzheimer's, and those studies resulted in Ginkgo getting a bad rap by many people because that was one of it's original claims, however; this is not an herb that one should expect to make any kind of dramatic short term impact on cognitive function.  I use it as more of a long-term brain health supplement, and for whatever it's worth, I've seen my academic performance steadily increase relative to my peer-group-mean over the 2.5 years I've taken this herb... and trust me, everyone in this peer group is struggling tooth n' nail to pull ahead of their own average performance.

 

I've tried several brands and doses.  I like Nature's Bounty 60mg or 120mg, NOW 60mg, and I've also tried BulkSupplements Pure Ginkgo Biloba Leaf Extract Powder for mixing into various stacked capsules.  

(My favorite herb stack capsule with this stuff so far as been an approximate 120mg Ginkgo, 250mg Bacopa, and a light sprinkle of Huperzine A 1% extract from LiftMode-- this stuff is very difficult to measure, so I keep it very minimal and believe I'm somewhere below the 100mcg recommended dose-- no side effects with a partial "microscoop" spoon and I do notice a significant boost to working memory and verbal efficiency-- presenting a patient history, I begin to verge on "Auctioneer" speed and accuracy, which seems to impress attending physicians.)

 

Examine.com has put together a very nice summary about Ginkgo that has even been updated pretty recently with new studies, and I recommend checking that out for a pretty thorough run-down of Ginkgo if you don't wanna troll through this thread and many others to consolidate the multiple proposed mechanisms of action:

http://examine.com/s...iloba/#summary4

 

 

Hows the Bacopa experiments going on? Is that a 20% bacosides content? (the 250mg you're using)

 

I find that Bacopa with its mild anti dopaminergic action greatly diminishes the stimulant effects of caffeine. I need more than double the same amounts of coffee for feeling the same again, while on bacopa. Examine.com talks about this too.

 

I was wondering if you experience the same or if you found some hack through this?

 

 

The experiment is going very well!  This time around I decided to take the plunge and fork over for some Bacopa that I previously thought was too expensive (since I had bad gastrointestinal side effects in prior experiences with the Planetary Essentials bacopa, which is an affordable brand with unclear composition).  

 

I've been using the "NutriGold Bacopa Gold" which has 275mg of the 20% extract combined with 225mg of the Bacomind proprietary extract formula used in several of the successful clinical trials cited by Examine and elsewhere.

 

First of all, the trial with this has been unusual, and mostly positive.  First the positive results:  After about 2 weeks of use, I felt that taking Bacopa sensitized me to both Ginkgo biloba and Piracetam/Choline.  The classic Ginkgo/Piracetam combo seemed to grow in efficacy for me, and returned me to the performance I once had with it when I started this whole journey.  This was particularly evident when I took Ginkgo/Piracetam as a second dose in the afternoon, in the ABSENCE of Bacopa.  Taking them all together did not have a dramatic effect, and in fact, taking Bacopa and Piracetam together seems to make me unreasonably drowsy.   I don't really have an explanation for this yet, but I am assuming the chronic use of Ginkgo/Piracetam results in downregulation of some NT component of cognition and short term recall, and using Bacopa for a few weeks seems to reverse or at least negate this downregulation.

 

The negatives: After taking Bacopa for about 5 weeks straight now, I've noticed no further boost in cognition and memory since about week 2-3 and (yes, as you too have noticed) I'm chronically a bit sedated and tired-- with far less benefit from Caffeine.  I also feel somewhat irritable and anhedonic in the afternoons. (I notice myself being less tolerant of people and not finding jokes or other humorous occurrences nearly as funny as I normally would).   I did not notice these negative effects during that first 2-3 week period, and for the 3rd week, I definitely noticed a boost to my memory and abstract thinking as demonstrated in quality and efficiency of my clinical work and study/quizzing performance. I have not yet found a way through this, except to stop taking Bacopa.  HOWEVER, I have noticed that stopping Bacopa but continuing Ginkgo or Ginkgo/Piracetam still seems to have some benefit to my cognition when compared to baseline exam and medical floor clinical performance with Ginkgo or Ginkgo/Piracetam/Choline alone, prior to this Bacopa trial.

 

This leads me to conclude that Bacopa may be a very beneficial Neuro-tuning sort of supplement, but that at the recommended doses, the negatives may outweigh the positives.  

 

-I'm going to try lower doses (approx half the dose in these NutriGold pills) for a while to see how that goes.  

 

-I may also try cycling Bacopa-- ie. 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off.  

 

-I bought some powder extract that is 55% bacoside content, and I may make some custom capsules with a relatively small amount of the powder-- ie < 100mg, to see how that goes.

 

These are my only suggestions for now, but let me know if you have other ideas.  

[NoopMed]

Forgot to mention, GI adverse effects have been much less significant with this trial. No cramps. Just a bit of gas.

[NoopMed]

Forgot to mention, GI adverse effects have been much less significant with this trial. No cramps. Just a bit of gas.

[FocusPocus]

 

 

I've had great, albeit subtle, results with Ginkgo over a very long period of time.  It is the one nootropic herb that I have taken consistently throughout this experiment.  I've taken it nearly every day for the last 2.5 years, with a few breaks here and there.  I've also adjusted my dose periodically.    It has the fewest side effects, and I always notice the difference if I stop taking it after 3-4 days-- mostly as a decrease in mood, motivation, and working memory.  I've talked about various proposed neurologic mechanisms of Ginkgo ad nauseum in this thread in the past, so I won't go over it all again-- but yes, studies I've cited previously have shown a net increase in synaptic NE with longterm use, and also show improved circulation.  Preforntal cortex increases in Dopamine are also probably important, as executive function and cognition are greatly effected by this area of the brain.  Acetylcholine esterase activity is inhibited by Ginkgo without a change in AChE RNA expression being upregulated, which could suggest improved memory formation through increased acetylcholine without risking longterm increase in AChE.  There have also been arguments for antioxidant activity and increases in generalized longevity and decreased rates of normal cognitive decline seen with aging.  It has not been shown to be particularly effective in treating Alzheimer's, and those studies resulted in Ginkgo getting a bad rap by many people because that was one of it's original claims, however; this is not an herb that one should expect to make any kind of dramatic short term impact on cognitive function.  I use it as more of a long-term brain health supplement, and for whatever it's worth, I've seen my academic performance steadily increase relative to my peer-group-mean over the 2.5 years I've taken this herb... and trust me, everyone in this peer group is struggling tooth n' nail to pull ahead of their own average performance.

 

I've tried several brands and doses.  I like Nature's Bounty 60mg or 120mg, NOW 60mg, and I've also tried BulkSupplements Pure Ginkgo Biloba Leaf Extract Powder for mixing into various stacked capsules.  

(My favorite herb stack capsule with this stuff so far as been an approximate 120mg Ginkgo, 250mg Bacopa, and a light sprinkle of Huperzine A 1% extract from LiftMode-- this stuff is very difficult to measure, so I keep it very minimal and believe I'm somewhere below the 100mcg recommended dose-- no side effects with a partial "microscoop" spoon and I do notice a significant boost to working memory and verbal efficiency-- presenting a patient history, I begin to verge on "Auctioneer" speed and accuracy, which seems to impress attending physicians.)

 

Examine.com has put together a very nice summary about Ginkgo that has even been updated pretty recently with new studies, and I recommend checking that out for a pretty thorough run-down of Ginkgo if you don't wanna troll through this thread and many others to consolidate the multiple proposed mechanisms of action:

http://examine.com/s...iloba/#summary4

 

 

Hows the Bacopa experiments going on? Is that a 20% bacosides content? (the 250mg you're using)

 

I find that Bacopa with its mild anti dopaminergic action greatly diminishes the stimulant effects of caffeine. I need more than double the same amounts of coffee for feeling the same again, while on bacopa. Examine.com talks about this too.

 

I was wondering if you experience the same or if you found some hack through this?

 

 

The experiment is going very well!  This time around I decided to take the plunge and fork over for some Bacopa that I previously thought was too expensive (since I had bad gastrointestinal side effects in prior experiences with the Planetary Essentials bacopa, which is an affordable brand with unclear composition).  

 

I've been using the "NutriGold Bacopa Gold" which has 275mg of the 20% extract combined with 225mg of the Bacomind proprietary extract formula used in several of the successful clinical trials cited by Examine and elsewhere.

 

First of all, the trial with this has been unusual, and mostly positive.  First the positive results:  After about 2 weeks of use, I felt that taking Bacopa sensitized me to both Ginkgo biloba and Piracetam/Choline.  The classic Ginkgo/Piracetam combo seemed to grow in efficacy for me, and returned me to the performance I once had with it when I started this whole journey.  This was particularly evident when I took Ginkgo/Piracetam as a second dose in the afternoon, in the ABSENCE of Bacopa.  Taking them all together did not have a dramatic effect, and in fact, taking Bacopa and Piracetam together seems to make me unreasonably drowsy.   I don't really have an explanation for this yet, but I am assuming the chronic use of Ginkgo/Piracetam results in downregulation of some NT component of cognition and short term recall, and using Bacopa for a few weeks seems to reverse or at least negate this downregulation.

 

The negatives: After taking Bacopa for about 5 weeks straight now, I've noticed no further boost in cognition and memory since about week 2-3 and (yes, as you too have noticed) I'm chronically a bit sedated and tired-- with far less benefit from Caffeine.  I also feel somewhat irritable and anhedonic in the afternoons. (I notice myself being less tolerant of people and not finding jokes or other humorous occurrences nearly as funny as I normally would).   I did not notice these negative effects during that first 2-3 week period, and for the 3rd week, I definitely noticed a boost to my memory and abstract thinking as demonstrated in quality and efficiency of my clinical work and study/quizzing performance. I have not yet found a way through this, except to stop taking Bacopa.  HOWEVER, I have noticed that stopping Bacopa but continuing Ginkgo or Ginkgo/Piracetam still seems to have some benefit to my cognition when compared to baseline exam and medical floor clinical performance with Ginkgo or Ginkgo/Piracetam/Choline alone, prior to this Bacopa trial.

 

This leads me to conclude that Bacopa may be a very beneficial Neuro-tuning sort of supplement, but that at the recommended doses, the negatives may outweigh the positives.  

 

-I'm going to try lower doses (approx half the dose in these NutriGold pills) for a while to see how that goes.  

 

-I may also try cycling Bacopa-- ie. 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off.  

 

-I bought some powder extract that is 55% bacoside content, and I may make some custom capsules with a relatively small amount of the powder-- ie < 100mg, to see how that goes.

 

These are my only suggestions for now, but let me know if you have other ideas.  

 

 

thanks for the reply!

 

I think cycling for 2 weeks may not be effective. Some studies showed that it needed 3-4 weeks for the memory effects to start surfacing after neurogenesis etc.

 

I've found a dose dependent sedative effect, and so Im currently on 150mg (20% bacosides) twice daily. 

 

Looking to stack with gingko, pramiracetam, caffeine and semax.

 

Being bipolar, I've found that bacopa is a natural mild alternative to an anti manic drug. Just hope I can find the right ratios.

Edited by FocusPocus, 15 October 2014 - 03:58 PM.

[HungryHippocampi]

Thanks for a well-written, concise, informative thread.  Your thread just turned me from a consumer to contributor on Longecity.  I've been testing nootropics for a couple of years and as you have settled on a fairly basic stack that I typically only take once in the morning.  If I am slammed with work, meetings, and or presentations I may sneak in a small afternoon dose.

 

Morning:

Coffee with 2+ tbsp of grassfed butter and 2 tbsp of coconut oil -- this was my first foray into kicking my day into another gear and will always remain the cornerstone of my routine

AlphaGPC/Choline Bitartrate - I may mix these doing 300mg of GPC and 500mg of CB or I may only do one or the other.  No real rhyme or reason but I tend to prefer CB with Piracetam and GPC with Aniracetam

800mg Piracetam - this helps my memory retention, increases focus without making me jittery, and really helps me organize thoughts in a clear, concise manner

750mg Aniracetam - use on days where it's all meetings or big presentations, tends to ramp up verbal fluidity

Fish Oil

 

Typical vitamin support:  B complex, Zinc, D3, K2, Selenium, and occassionally E

 

Afternoon if needed:

800mg Piracetam

500mg Choline Bitartrate

Cup of Green Tea

 

I have a drink that resembles Spark that I use periodically that really aids in a subtle rise in energy and giving me laser focus that I may also add in if I'm feeling exceptionally scattered.

 

My cabinet resembles a Natural Health store and I at one time was taking a slew of vitamins, adaptogens, and noots.  I get a much greater effect from a simplified dosing regimen.  I am however, very interested in the long-term effects of CILTEP, Bacopa, and Lion's Mane that I've been reading about.

 

Here's an intersting study on a comparison of Modafinil with Panax Ginseng and Bacopa... http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3575939/

 

Modafinil had the strongest effects on speed of information processing and executive functioning. Ginseng exerts acute positive effects on secondary memory and more heavily cognitively loaded working memory tasks. Bacopa administration appears to predominantly enhance learning and memory, with effects restricted to chronic administration.

 

I wonder if Bacopa may be best administered with fat at dinner time?  I haven't been able to find a reliable source for the half-life but it seems to me that it should wear off by morning coffee.  Or I suppose you could always go back to your small glass of grapefruit juice (naringin) in an attempt to negate Bacopa's negative effects on caffeine?

 

I need to do some research on Mg L-Threonate, it's one subustance with which I am less familiar.

 

[deh707]

Thanks for a well-written, concise, informative thread.  Your thread just turned me from a consumer to contributor on Longecity.  I've been testing nootropics for a couple of years and as you have settled on a fairly basic stack that I typically only take once in the morning.  If I am slammed with work, meetings, and or presentations I may sneak in a small afternoon dose.

 

Morning:

Coffee with 2+ tbsp of grassfed butter and 2 tbsp of coconut oil -- this was my first foray into kicking my day into another gear and will always remain the cornerstone of my routine

AlphaGPC/Choline Bitartrate - I may mix these doing 300mg of GPC and 500mg of CB or I may only do one or the other.  No real rhyme or reason but I tend to prefer CB with Piracetam and GPC with Aniracetam

800mg Piracetam - this helps my memory retention, increases focus without making me jittery, and really helps me organize thoughts in a clear, concise manner

750mg Aniracetam - use on days where it's all meetings or big presentations, tends to ramp up verbal fluidity

Fish Oil

 

Typical vitamin support:  B complex, Zinc, D3, K2, Selenium, and occassionally E

 

Afternoon if needed:

800mg Piracetam

500mg Choline Bitartrate

Cup of Green Tea

 

I have a drink that resembles Spark that I use periodically that really aids in a subtle rise in energy and giving me laser focus that I may also add in if I'm feeling exceptionally scattered.

 

My cabinet resembles a Natural Health store and I at one time was taking a slew of vitamins, adaptogens, and noots.  I get a much greater effect from a simplified dosing regimen.  I am however, very interested in the long-term effects of CILTEP, Bacopa, and Lion's Mane that I've been reading about.

 

Here's an intersting study on a comparison of Modafinil with Panax Ginseng and Bacopa... http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3575939/

 

Modafinil had the strongest effects on speed of information processing and executive functioning. Ginseng exerts acute positive effects on secondary memory and more heavily cognitively loaded working memory tasks. Bacopa administration appears to predominantly enhance learning and memory, with effects restricted to chronic administration.

 

I wonder if Bacopa may be best administered with fat at dinner time?  I haven't been able to find a reliable source for the half-life but it seems to me that it should wear off by morning coffee.  Or I suppose you could always go back to your small glass of grapefruit juice (naringin) in an attempt to negate Bacopa's negative effects on caffeine?

 

I need to do some research on Mg L-Threonate, it's one subustance with which I am less familiar.

 

 

 

 

Interesting study you posted... 

 

I'm a bit confused, were they comparing effects of Bacopa+Ginseng versus Modafinil?

[HungryHippocampi]

In the case of Ginseng and Bacopa, only studies using ‘pure’ extracts were accepted, i.e. there were no other supplements present within the target nutraceutical arm. Furthermore, all extracts must have been used in isolation and not contaminated by co‐use of other supplements as adjunct interventions.

 

No, it appears they were looking at Ginseng and Bacopa independently rather than combined.  Ginseng was an acute dosing versus Bacopa which was most effective with chronic dosing.

 

Looks like I need to seriously consider putting Ginko in the mix:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3166615/ --  Brain Activation in the Left Temporal and Left Prefrontal Cortex in an Object Working Memory Task

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3745884/ -- Antiapoptotic effects of a Ginko extract

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2828029/ -- Increases extracellular levels of dopamine in the rat prefrontal cortex

 

Anyone have suggestions for an effective Ginko supplement brand?

[Godof Smallthings]

The extract that has been used in most studies is called EGB761.

Personally, I have been happy with other ginkgo varieties that do not contain certified EGB761 as well (for example Boots-branded Ginkgo) - they all seem to enhance concentration/focus, in particular, in my experience, when administered with fish oil and green tea.

 

But if you want to use EGB761, 'Ginkgold' is one brand available on iherb and in other online shops.

[chipdouglas]

Isn't the combined use of fish oil + ginkgo biloba likely to increase bleeding ?

[HungryHippocampi]

Isn't the combined use of fish oil + ginkgo biloba likely to increase bleeding ?

 

I checked PubMed and did a general internet search and could find no mention of the interaction you described.  Do you have a link you could post?

 

I am thinking about trying to work noopept back into my routine but at much smaller doses.  I was dosing sublingually and using about 20mg -- initially would feel the rush, then a couple of hours later be propping my eyelids open with toothpicks (people tend to look at you funny in meetings).  I am going to start with a 5mg sublingual dose, here's a reference:

 

http://www.reddit.co..._eid=7c76a350d2

Edited by HungryHippocampi, 29 October 2014 - 07:45 PM.

[HungryHippocampi]

Hey NoopMed -- earlier in the thread you mentioned your night-time stack in an attempt to re-sensitize neurotransmitters (which I think you've since discontinued). Do you think a little Low Level Light Therapy (LLLT) might be helpful in this way and ultimately synergistic with your daily stack?

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24127337

Although the prevention of cell death was modest but significant, LLLT (3 J/cm(2) delivered at 25 mW/cm(2) over 2 min) gave highly significant benefits in increasing ATP, raising mitochondrial membrane potential, reducing intracellular calcium concentrations, reducing oxidative stress and reducing nitric oxide. The action of LLLT in abrogating excitotoxicity may play a role in explaining its beneficial effects in diverse central nervous system pathologies.

 

 

I haven't experimented with this yet but think I may follow LostFalco's lead.

[chipdouglas]

The below link «merely» brings up dietary supplements known to increase the risk of bleeding, but no direct relationship between fish oil + ginkgo is mentioned. 

http://www.mayoclini...t-20046797?pg=2

 

The above theoretical query had been a concern of mine, but since I've only been taking fish oil without any ginkgo thus far, I hadn't researched it. I posted the question above in order to find out whether those taking ginkgo in this very interesting thread, had found any interaction between the two. 

 

Since both fish oil and ginkgo both independently increase bleeding risk, I'd assumed taking both might pose a problem. However, It doesn't look like it does, or at least perhaps this issue hasn't been looked into. It also seems like below 3 grams/day makes the antiplatelets activity of fish oil less likely : http://www.nlm.nih.g...atural/993.html

[NoopMed]

Isn't the combined use of fish oil + ginkgo biloba likely to increase bleeding ?

 

There was speculation about this during early studies of Ginkgo, since certain constituents of the herb have a mild inhibitory effect on Platelet Activating Factor (PAF).  
This study:  http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15693702
...essentially shows that any effect of Ginkgo on hemostasis (your ability to form clots, and prevent bleeding) is probably so inconsequential that it could make no clinical difference.  This is because PAF actually plays a relatively minor role in activating platelets, despite its name, and because the concentrations of Ginkgo required to actually cause inhibition are much high than a person would normally be able to consume orally.

 

Regarding Fish Oil, many of the studies are pretty old and should likely be repeated-- given the growing understanding of hemostasis in the context of many new and useful anticoagulative drugs-- however; it has long been known that large amounts of fish oil in a day will reduce platelet function and increase bleeding time.  Daily amounts in excess of 3g have been shown to have a significant effect.  I've never tried taking this much, but I don't imagine the effect would be particularly impressive.

Here's a few studies:  http://www.ncbi.nlm....9?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm....1?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm....8?dopt=Abstract

 

It should also be noted that Piracetam effects hemostasis.   A study primary involving Rats but also looking at bleeding time in humans found here: http://www.kuleuven-...s/piracetam.pdf

...shows that Piracetam effects some IN VIVO element of platelet aggregation that is not present IN VITRO... an unusual finding, but one that makes sense in hemostasis, since we must also rely on the coagulation cascade and other elements such as Von Willebrand's factor to aid in the aggregation of many platelets to form a single clot at the site of an injury.  This study showed that the coagulation cascade itself was not affected, but that most likely the binding site for fibrin on the platelet or a downstream activation of the platelet by this binding receptor.  The effect was apparently significant, and bleeding time was increased by about 20%.  This could tie in somehow to previous research I've probably cited elsewhere in this thread about Piracetam improving outcomes from cardiac surgery and ischemic strokes, perhaps by acting is a minor anticoagulant in this setting... who knows.  Very little research has been conducted in this area, and regardless of this effect, Piracetam is not used currently as an anticoagulant.  The effect is probably very minimal in the clinical setting. 

 

To conclude, I would say the risk of spontaneous bleeding with the combination of Ginkgo and Fish Oil is probably non-existent and risk of increased bleeding with serious trauma (over what you would normally bleed in this context) is probably not significant.   The addition of Piracetam to Fish Oil, however; may increase the risk of bleeding somewhat, but by how much is not well studied as far as I'm aware. As anecdotal evidence: I've taken the combo of Ginkgo, Fish Oil, and Piracetam for 2 years and live an active lifestyle.  I've never noticed increased bruising from falls during sports or a prolonged bleeding time when bleeding from minor nicks and cuts-- nor from fairly significant lacerations when I've been a little too adventurous.  :-)  

 

If anything, I would avoid taking any of these (particularly Piracetam) 5-8 hours before any elective surgery engaging in sports or other activities with high risk for major bodily harm.

[NoopMed]

Hey NoopMed -- earlier in the thread you mentioned your night-time stack in an attempt to re-sensitize neurotransmitters (which I think you've since discontinued). Do you think a little Low Level Light Therapy (LLLT) might be helpful in this way and ultimately synergistic with your daily stack?

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24127337

Although the prevention of cell death was modest but significant, LLLT (3 J/cm(2) delivered at 25 mW/cm(2) over 2 min) gave highly significant benefits in increasing ATP, raising mitochondrial membrane potential, reducing intracellular calcium concentrations, reducing oxidative stress and reducing nitric oxide. The action of LLLT in abrogating excitotoxicity may play a role in explaining its beneficial effects in diverse central nervous system pathologies.

 

 

I haven't experimented with this yet but think I may follow LostFalco's lead.

Sounds pretty interesting!  I haven't read much about it, but I recall reading a few articles over a year ago in the setting of reading about transcranial direct current stimulation (which sounded beyond level of dedication to nootropics at this point).  Who's LostFalco?

[chipdouglas]

Thanks NoopMed - I found your post to be quite helpful and clears up much, if not all confusion regarding the combo of fish oil + ginkgo. 

[HungryHippocampi]

LostFalco is a user here on Longecity who has commented previously in this thread.  His thread regarding LLLT is here:  http://www.longecity...ic-experiments/

 

[Flex]

 

 

There was speculation about this during early studies of Ginkgo, since certain constituents of the herb have a mild inhibitory effect on Platelet Activating Factor (PAF).  
This study:  http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15693702
...essentially shows that any effect of Ginkgo on hemostasis (your ability to form clots, and prevent bleeding) is probably so inconsequential that it could make no clinical difference.  This is because PAF actually plays a relatively minor role in activating platelets, despite its name, and because the concentrations of Ginkgo required to actually cause inhibition are much high than a person would normally be able to consume orally.

 

Regarding Fish Oil, many of the studies are pretty old and should likely be repeated-- given the growing understanding of hemostasis in the context of many new and useful anticoagulative drugs-- however; it has long been known that large amounts of fish oil in a day will reduce platelet function and increase bleeding time.  Daily amounts in excess of 3g have been shown to have a significant effect.  I've never tried taking this much, but I don't imagine the effect would be particularly impressive.

Here's a few studies:  http://www.ncbi.nlm....9?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm....1?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm....8?dopt=Abstract

 

It should also be noted that Piracetam effects hemostasis.   A study primary involving Rats but also looking at bleeding time in humans found here: http://www.kuleuven-...s/piracetam.pdf

...shows that Piracetam effects some IN VIVO element of platelet aggregation that is not present IN VITRO... an unusual finding, but one that makes sense in hemostasis, since we must also rely on the coagulation cascade and other elements such as Von Willebrand's factor to aid in the aggregation of many platelets to form a single clot at the site of an injury.  This study showed that the coagulation cascade itself was not affected, but that most likely the binding site for fibrin on the platelet or a downstream activation of the platelet by this binding receptor.  The effect was apparently significant, and bleeding time was increased by about 20%.  This could tie in somehow to previous research I've probably cited elsewhere in this thread about Piracetam improving outcomes from cardiac surgery and ischemic strokes, perhaps by acting is a minor anticoagulant in this setting... who knows.  Very little research has been conducted in this area, and regardless of this effect, Piracetam is not used currently as an anticoagulant.  The effect is probably very minimal in the clinical setting. 

 

To conclude, I would say the risk of spontaneous bleeding with the combination of Ginkgo and Fish Oil is probably non-existent and risk of increased bleeding with serious trauma (over what you would normally bleed in this context) is probably not significant.   The addition of Piracetam to Fish Oil, however; may increase the risk of bleeding somewhat, but by how much is not well studied as far as I'm aware. As anecdotal evidence: I've taken the combo of Ginkgo, Fish Oil, and Piracetam for 2 years and live an active lifestyle.  I've never noticed increased bruising from falls during sports or a prolonged bleeding time when bleeding from minor nicks and cuts-- nor from fairly significant lacerations when I've been a little too adventurous.  :-)  

 

If anything, I would avoid taking any of these (particularly Piracetam) 5-8 hours before any elective surgery engaging in sports or other activities with high risk for major bodily harm.

 

 

If I use a certain herb that has various effects on bloodthinning factors (PAF,PF, thromboxane & etc) and take a propper ammount of Vitamin K1,

would the blood thinning effect go back to baseline after 8-11 days (due the regeneration of thrombocytes)

or are further factors not normalized by Vitamine K exept thrombocyte agregation ?

 

Furthermore I´ve seen in an episode of Dr.House that they´ve cut a small wound and measured the flow with a timer.

can I also do this to get the Prothrombin time + all the other factors ?

 

Could You explain me how to do this or tell other ways to measure how "thinn" my blood is ? 

 

Thanks

 

Edit:

There have been cases where Ginkgo + Aspirine caused bleedings, although just 2 cases.

This is one of them

http://medherb.com/M...od_thinners.htm

I´ve read allready somewhere that PAF is not strong, but for some reason it still happened.

Edited by Flex, 30 October 2014 - 06:29 PM.

[NoopMed]

 

 

 

There was speculation about this during early studies of Ginkgo, since certain constituents of the herb have a mild inhibitory effect on Platelet Activating Factor (PAF).  
This study:  http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15693702
...essentially shows that any effect of Ginkgo on hemostasis (your ability to form clots, and prevent bleeding) is probably so inconsequential that it could make no clinical difference.  This is because PAF actually plays a relatively minor role in activating platelets, despite its name, and because the concentrations of Ginkgo required to actually cause inhibition are much high than a person would normally be able to consume orally.

 

Regarding Fish Oil, many of the studies are pretty old and should likely be repeated-- given the growing understanding of hemostasis in the context of many new and useful anticoagulative drugs-- however; it has long been known that large amounts of fish oil in a day will reduce platelet function and increase bleeding time.  Daily amounts in excess of 3g have been shown to have a significant effect.  I've never tried taking this much, but I don't imagine the effect would be particularly impressive.

Here's a few studies:  http://www.ncbi.nlm....9?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm....1?dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm....8?dopt=Abstract

 

It should also be noted that Piracetam effects hemostasis.   A study primary involving Rats but also looking at bleeding time in humans found here: http://www.kuleuven-...s/piracetam.pdf

...shows that Piracetam effects some IN VIVO element of platelet aggregation that is not present IN VITRO... an unusual finding, but one that makes sense in hemostasis, since we must also rely on the coagulation cascade and other elements such as Von Willebrand's factor to aid in the aggregation of many platelets to form a single clot at the site of an injury.  This study showed that the coagulation cascade itself was not affected, but that most likely the binding site for fibrin on the platelet or a downstream activation of the platelet by this binding receptor.  The effect was apparently significant, and bleeding time was increased by about 20%.  This could tie in somehow to previous research I've probably cited elsewhere in this thread about Piracetam improving outcomes from cardiac surgery and ischemic strokes, perhaps by acting is a minor anticoagulant in this setting... who knows.  Very little research has been conducted in this area, and regardless of this effect, Piracetam is not used currently as an anticoagulant.  The effect is probably very minimal in the clinical setting. 

 

To conclude, I would say the risk of spontaneous bleeding with the combination of Ginkgo and Fish Oil is probably non-existent and risk of increased bleeding with serious trauma (over what you would normally bleed in this context) is probably not significant.   The addition of Piracetam to Fish Oil, however; may increase the risk of bleeding somewhat, but by how much is not well studied as far as I'm aware. As anecdotal evidence: I've taken the combo of Ginkgo, Fish Oil, and Piracetam for 2 years and live an active lifestyle.  I've never noticed increased bruising from falls during sports or a prolonged bleeding time when bleeding from minor nicks and cuts-- nor from fairly significant lacerations when I've been a little too adventurous.  :-)  

 

If anything, I would avoid taking any of these (particularly Piracetam) 5-8 hours before any elective surgery engaging in sports or other activities with high risk for major bodily harm.

 

 

If I use a certain herb that has various effects on bloodthinning factors (PAF,PF, thromboxane & etc) and take a propper ammount of Vitamin K1,

would the blood thinning effect go back to baseline after 8-11 days (due the regeneration of thrombocytes)

or are further factors not normalized by Vitamine K exept thrombocyte agregation ?

 

Furthermore I´ve seen in an episode of Dr.House that they´ve cut a small wound and measured the flow with a timer.

can I also do this to get the Prothrombin time + all the other factors ?

 

Could You explain me how to do this or tell other ways to measure how "thinn" my blood is ? 

 

Thanks

 

Edit:

There have been cases where Ginkgo + Aspirine caused bleedings, although just 2 cases.

This is one of them

http://medherb.com/M...od_thinners.htm

I´ve read allready somewhere that PAF is not strong, but for some reason it still happened.

 

 

 

Vitamin K only helps with the coagulation cascade, and factors 2, 7, 9, 10, C, and S-- specifically.  It does not help platelet number or function.  Also, you do not need to take Vitamin K unless you have significant liver disease (where these factors are made) or cannot eat a balanced diet including green vegetables (a plentiful source of vitamin K).  Herbs that affect PAF and Thromboxane affect platelet function (inside the platelets, if it helps to think of them that way), not the coagulation cascade. Vitamin K only affects the coagulation cascade (outside the platelets and floating around in the blood). 

 

A bleeding time is not commonly measured due to the challenges of replicated it accurately between facilities and because of patient discomfort.  Several blood tests can easily replace the need for this.  A PT, PTT, Platelet Count, and Fibrinogen should be sufficient in most cases.  A Platelet Function Assay would be useful in the particular case of Ginkgo/Fish Oil/Piracetam as these drugs may actually interact with platelet function, however; this test can be more costly and is less available.  There are also numerous other tests that can be performed to look for specific bleeding disorders.  No one performs bleeding time assessments in the facilities I've worked in, however; I'm sure they're entertaining on TV.

 

The best way to tell if your blood is "thin" is if you are finding bruises on your body from very minor impacts or for no reason at all, if your gums bleed spontaneously, or if you notice that you just don't stop bleeding from minor cuts like incurred while shaving.

 

Aspirin is a FAR stronger blood thinner than Ginkgo/Fish Oil/Piracetam. Studies have been completed that show the addition of Ginkgo to Aspirin does not significantly increase bleeding over Aspirin alone.  http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16752942       http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/17982321

 

Bottom Line:  You don't need Vitamin K and it might even put you at increased risk for dangerous blood clots, Ginkgo/Fish Oil/Piracetam do not significantly increase the risk for bleeding, and House is a TV show.

 

Are there other herbs you are concerned about besides these mentioned?