312 replies to this topic

[NoopMed]

I did think that noopmed was from the USA; though I didn't assume because assumptions are the brother of all fuck-ups (I'm sure that my referring to lock-stock will be frowned upon in here)
If you clikc on a user name there is an attribute that says: Location, either he was being honest and he's from the USA or he's one of those kooky Canadians and he's being ironic. either way, great student is relative, med students despite being intellectual monsters amoung brick layers have a pecking order of their own, noopmed seems to be a bit of an intellectual but he might still think he's a sub par intellect where par is Steven Hawking or Da vinci.

I've always wanted to know if smart people could raise the bar through supplementation.

I am from the USA. Not in a proud way. Not in a shameful or disappointed way either. It's just where I'm from. I'm "well traveled," I suppose, and hopefully I've mentioned before that I'm not exactly part of the typical "nose to the grindstone" highschool-college-medschool paradigm. I'm also probably not from the "mainstream" US culture... but whatever, this is an internet forum and that's the kind of personal evaluation not worth writing about. Bottom line, it IS hard to get into medical school here... I'm quite far from home, in fact. I got here because I earned it. I moved to the best school that accepted me, and it's been far different than where I call home. In fact, there are places in this world that I've traveled (places in europe mostly, and possibly a few in the south pacific) that I would identify more closely with home than the part of the USA I've currently taken residence in. Ultimately, it doesn't matter where I am. The endeavor I've chosen (at least to my mind's eye) requires the fullest of effort and potential. It is a human endeavor, devoid of nation, race, creed or belief. I research and employ the use of cognitive enhancing substances to benefit my role as a physician. My prospective degree is one that is recognized anywhere in the world because my faculty is to provide aid, beneficence and healing to those in need. I feel it worthwhile to seek any sustainable, safe avenue to enhance the effectiveness of that faculty. So that's me on a soapbox, hopefully for the last time.

Edited by NoopMed, 22 December 2012 - 06:14 AM.

[enxr]

So how's your progress, Noopmed?

[blargypaston]

Yeah I happened to come across this when searching for information on ginkgo, your title grabbed me in and I have read every post so far. I was wondering what your current stack is since its been close to a month since your last post.

[NoopMed]

Yeah I happened to come across this when searching for information on ginkgo, your title grabbed me in and I have read every post so far. I was wondering what your current stack is since its been close to a month since your last post.

Hey All,

Sorry for my lack of activity on here recently. Things in school/life have become increasingly busy recently, and I've had no time at all. That being said... I'm on the home stretch to board-studying, and then the board exams themselves in just a few months, so my activity on here will probably be even less until July-- however, I will try to respond when I can. As a side note, I've also been getting a lot of private messages asking for medical advice or personal advice about stacks. Unfortunately, my schedule has become so busy that I simply don't have time to answer them all. Additionally, I'm still just a medical student, and I shouldn't be giving out medical advice in general, especially with people I haven't been able to take a full history and perform a physical on. If you have a health concern, you should see your doctor. Simple as that. Sorry!

Currently, I'm doing pretty great. I've tried a few things in the last month or so.

Last I posted, I was trying out Panax Ginseng, Phosphatidylserine, and Lion's Mane Mushroom along with other items traditional to my stack. I also spoke of potentially stopping Piracetam, simply to see what would happen. These are the results:

Ginseng -- was great, and did act as a good stimulant and study aid. I would continue using it if there were no side effects, however; after further reading and research, I became increasingly concerned about long-term use. After about 3 weeks of positive results in focus and motivation, I discontinued use. The primary side effects I'm concerned about involve the hormonal axis, as Ginseng has been shown to be a reasonably potent phytoestrogen, and could have estrogenic effects long term. Currently the natural medicine community does not feel it is safe to take long term, and I will heed their advice in this. As Ginseng was primarily a very balanced stimulant for me, and didn't seem to drastically improve my memory or anything else to remarkable-- it's basically redundant with caffeine for me. I will probably continue to use it sporadically-- it's wonderful for a long day of physical activity (i.e. Skiing, a long bike ride, running, etc.) Also of note, you'll find this supplement in remarkably high doses in several energy drinks. Some varieties of Monster Energy Drink, for example, have about 2x the dose I was taking in their large screw-top cans. This was something I had to be a bit careful with because I didn't wanna have huge unintentional megadoses of it in my diet.

CDP-Choline (citicoline) -- After further reading, I also found this supplement to have some preliminary evidence of increasing hormonal axis activity (HPA-Axis). While Ginseng acts as an estrogen directly, this acts to basically amp up all the release signals for all hormones. When I take CDP choline, I can definitely feel the ACTH side of things; i.e. catacholamine boost, which is likely increased epinephrine and norepi. (adrenaline, noradren.), but I'm sure my cortisol is probably also boosted way up too. There simply isn't enough research out there in the community to draw a conclusion about safety in this regard with CDP Choline. High sustained cortisol is definitely not a good thing... You can read all about the monkeys tested in sustained high stress situations. You'll find elevated cortisol levels, premature aging, and early death from cardiovascular complications. Not something I really want! Since CDP-Choline has a HUGE half-life (72 hours), I have stepped this back to once every 3 days. I still get a good benefit from it this way, but it's not acting quite like the stimulant I once experienced it as. Again, this is a reduction in use due to my concerns about long term safety, not lack of efficacy.

Phosphatidylserine -- The research from this is very promising. The safety profile looks great. Only problem is, I've been taking it for a month, and I don't notice any difference at all. Really, as I mentioned before, it's the kind of supplement that should act as a "support." But I had figured that after a month I might notice something. I'll continue to take it, just no exciting news to report. It may be more beneficial in situations with true, widespread neuron damage, like Alzheimer's, stroke, etc.

Lion's Mane Mushroom -- This stuff was interesting. It's very had to find much research at all regarding it, but the results seem to suggest a significant boost in NGF and BDNF (hormones that urge your neurons to grow and differentiate.) When I take it, I actually feel it a bit harder to focus and perform, but what I do notice is an increased quantity of memory retention from what I do study... It does not help with my rote recall or testing performance, and may actually hinder that. It just seems to help with memory formation, and after it wears off, I find myself holding on to a bit more than usual. I just find the process of studying while on it a bit more frustrating than usual because it's harder to focus. This will basically work for me in the 3-4 day period in the weekend before and early-week before an exam when I'm trying to swallow a ton of complex information, often for the first time. Due to a lack of long term safety information out there, I will not take it regularly, but simply as needed for large, low-pressure, non-performance oriented study sessions. (AKA, I'll take while watching lectures and reading, but not while trying to blast through sample questions and question banks or having comprehensive discussions with classmates.)

Piracetam Reduction -- I've read all the horror stories some people have posted up about withdrawal from Piracetam, etc. They are few and far between, but it was a concern of mine. I also wanted try out stopping piracetam, because even though I was at reasonably high doses, I felt like I was getting a differential tolerance to it. By differential tolerance, I mean that basically I felt I was losing the nootropic effects from it at the same dose, but retaining strong anxiolytic effects from it. This is a topic you can read about else where in these forums, but basically Piracetam appears to act on Glutamate channels to improve focus, memory, and increase brain activity. But it also seems to work on GABA channels to induce relaxation and reduce anxiety. (Piracetam is an derivative of the GABA molecule, so this makes sense.) Basically, I was taking my normal morning dose, but getting kinda sleepy from it. Feeling very relaxed and confident, but not quite reaching the same level of performance I had grown accustom to. So I quit COLD TURKEY. I was surprised by the results. I had ZERO withdrawal, and no negative effects whatsoever. For 2-3 days after removing it entirely from my stack, I actually felt a slight increase in focus and mental capacity. This very slowly and gracefully faded away, and I returned to what must be my normal base line. The transition was very smooth, and not in any way unpleasant. After about a week off piracetam altogether I felt a very subtle decrease in my memory and cognitive performance, but it was manageable and not unexpected. After about 3 weeks off, I decided to try an 800mg dose of Piracetam in the morning, and I was shocked. It kicked like a mule this time. I was WAY in the zone, even without the normal preload that I required the first time I tried Piracetam. Basically, I was much more acutely aware of somewhat lower mental performance in the preceding weeks once I started back onto it, as compared to how I observed my differential in performance as I stopped using it from a period of about 3-4 months of being continuously on it. Eye of the beholder? Who knows. Again, this is all subjective and anecdotal, but that's how it went for me. This has led me to a conclusion about how I want to manage my piracetam. Over the last weeks since I tried it again, I've been trying to find an even lower minimum dose. I do get some benefit out of about 400mg once per day with breakfast, so this is what I'm going to do: I will take Piracetam in low doses when I have a moderately challenging day, but I will not take it regularly-- aka every day. THEN, on exam weeks, I will take the normal 800mg twice daily, ramping up the regimen through the exam. Then stop cold, and return to 400mg as needed. Piracetam has been wonderful supplement for me, but I want to make sure I'm getting the absolute top performance out of it, and this seems like a decent plan for that. That said, my stack will become very complicated.
-------------------------------------------------------

This is where I'm at now:

A Normal Day:
AM--
Caffeine (cup of Spark-- 500mg Choline bitartrate, tyrosine, and other multivitamins)
Fish Oil 1200mg
Ginkgo 120mg extended release
Phosphatidylserine 100mg

Afternoon--
Caffeine
Choline bitartrate 500mg

-----------------------------------------

A Tough Day:

AM--
Caffeine (cup of Spark-- 500mg Choline bitartrate, tyrosine, and other multivitamins)
Fish Oil 1200mg
Ginkgo 120mg extended release
Phosphatidylserine 100mg
400mg Piracetam

Afternoon--
Caffeine
Choline bitartrate 500mg
400-800mg Piracetam (variable depending on how tough a day)

--------------------------------------------


Every 3 Days:
CDP-Choline 100mg

--------------------------------------------

Early Test Week:


AM--
Caffeine (cup of Spark-- 500mg Choline bitartrate, tyrosine, and other multivitamins)
Fish Oil 1200mg
Ginkgo 120mg extended release
Phosphatidylserine 100mg
800mg Piracetam
Lion's Mane Mushroom

Afternoon--
Caffeine
Ginkgo 120mg XR
Choline bitartrate 500mg
800mg Piracetam

--------------------------------------------

Late Test Week:


AM--
Caffeine (cup of Spark-- 500mg Choline bitartrate, tyrosine, and other multivitamins)
Fish Oil 1200mg
Ginkgo 120mg extended release
Phosphatidylserine 100mg
1200mg Piracetam

Afternoon--
Caffeine
Ginkgo 120mg XR
Choline bitartrate 500mg
800mg Piracetam

---------------------------------------------

Test Day:


AM--
Caffeine (cup of Spark-- 500mg Choline bitartrate, tyrosine, and other multivitamins)
Fish Oil 1200mg
Ginkgo 120mg extended release
Phosphatidylserine 100mg
1200mg Piracetam

During Exam--
1600mg Piracetam
500mg Choline bitartrate
700mg Oxiracetam (have to be careful here, once this seemed like too much stimulation and shattered my focus for part of an exam.)
(Depending on how long after breakfast my exam is, I may also take a second Ginkgo XR 120mg)

----------------------------------------------

As you can see, I've cut out many things from the past, and I'm still striving for a bit of a minimalist approach compared to some of the stacks out there. Some of the things I've mentioned in the past on this thread are still something I try every once in a while. Like Noopept, for example: I find it does help with studying, in a very similar way to Lion's Mane Mushroom, so sometimes I will take one of those. Or Oxiracetam-- for me, it's a powerful, stimulating nootropic, and if I'm just having a rough day getting my study on, I might use one of those. The key is really being able to read you body, and know what supplement might be worthwhile to take as needed. This is not something everyone could/should try, for some it's likely best to stick to a schedule. Regardless, my priority is safety and sustained performance. Recently, I've been very concerned about burnout and reduced supplement efficacy, and I'm simply trying to keep my eyes on the prize (which is the looming board exam). It will be about 4 more months, but this will be the time when I need the absolute highest, sustained, day-long performance. Hopefully I'll have a Boards Day stack planned out well in advance to share with you guys, but if things continue to be as busy as they have been, I can't guarantee anything.

Hope everyone is doing well! Take care, and noop safely!

[deh707]

NoopMed,

Good to hear that you're still fine and dandy!

I am definitely loving your approach to minimalism, I can relate.

Currently I'm just on 1.2g piracetam (3x a day) + 300mg alpha-gpc (with 1st and 3rd PIR doses) + 100mg caffeine (3x a day) + 150mg theanine (3x a day).

Sometimes I'll use Noopept if needed, 10mg.


I have heard of synergy between Noopept + Lions Mane + NAC (n acetyl cysteine)

What do you think of the following links?:

http://www.longecity...of-nefiracetam/

(post #9 by BLimitless):

"Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:04 PM
I am combining it with Lion's Mane, N-Acetyl-Cysteine, N-Acetyl-Tyrosine and ALCAR. Lion's Mane Mycelium and NAC massively potentiate the NGF/BDNF boosting effects of noopept so yes, yes they do. I feel my brain getting practically getting younger every day - I experienced a significant brain degeneration in my teens due to certain issues and it is reversing to how I was when I was a child. Piracetam/Noopept on their own, I do not know. The NAC and Lion's Mane synergy with Noopept creates a HUGE boost so keep that in mind. I remember reading some papers/anecdotes on this before but I cannot recall. As a result I set up the stack and I can confirm first hand.

And there is a significant difference between a little Piracetam and a nice full looking teaspoon's worth of it. I believe that the 4.8g idea was well thought out because it works for me. 4.8g feels more like a threshold dose than a megadose to say the least.

Edited by BLimitless, 19 December 2012 - 07:09 PM."




Also, more on NAC:


https://www.dmt-nexu...g=posts&t=36828

Edited by deh707, 19 January 2013 - 11:40 PM.

[Strelok]

Thanks for the update. All of the information you've provided is interesting and helpful.

[rex]

Good thread, thanks for sharing!

[#1stunna]

I consider this thread and a thread on brain-meta the most informative info out there on nootopics. BTW, that calm me magnesium drink is expensive but is supposed to have excellent absoption, whereas cheap mag oxide is poorly absorbed (or so I have read)

Noopmed I am sure you and mban could have some very interesting discussions. I find his advice helpful and I am shying away from racetams, might take it to study at home but makes me jittery at work....not a good quality when starting IV's etc (RN).

Would love to hear your thoughts on vitamin/mineral deficiencies when you have time down the road or after boards, I know you gotta prioritize. I have been reading lots of online anecdotes of people with gi issues causing absorption issues and therfore dediciencies. Many are recommending a Spectracell tests
http://www.spectracell.com/

Supposidly some otherwise healthy 25-35 yo men have been found to have depression related to b-12 deficiency from low gut flora, low testosterone from selenium deficiency, etc.

which has critics
http://www.quora.com...t-blood-testing

this article about top 10 paleo supps basically states our diets are low many vitamins/minerals and to just supplement them individully w/o a multi
http://www.jackkruse...eo-supplements/
his key supps/deficiencies

Vitamin D
Magnesium
Vitamin K2
Vitamin C
Iodine
Vitamin A
Selenium
Copper
Folinic Acid with B12

Basically do you think deficiencies are worth worrying about? Would a spectacell test do anything over getting some normal labs from the Dr office? Would it be prudent to stop the multi a few days a month and use something like now thyroid multi?

http://www.nowfoods....ent/M013101.htm
If anyone else has input on this I am all ears, and good luck on boards.

[PTShapeShifter]

I'm about a month and a half into slowly building my own customized noop stack -- as I want the cognitive boost for studying for a PhD in Physical Rehab Therapy -- at age 55. I find myself initially drawn to a Three Phased approach to accomplishing this:

PHASE ONE: SUPPORT OVERALL NEURONAL HEALTH -- and baseline reestablishment.

Work to clear out any potential neural free radical toxicity, synaptic blockages, and assure a healthy neural blood flow / composition & boost neural ATP for energy . Two months prior I experienced an acute 60 day super high stress period that lead to chronic insomnia, neurotransmitters out of whack and a general energy / cognitive crashing... profound & sustained brain fog. Immediately, I reduced all sources of stress, cut way back on sugar & cheese & other unhealthy highly processed 'comfort' foods and began a month long process of weaning myself off Ambien to eventually get a good nights sleep on my own without sups or maybe a little Passion Flower, Valerian Root or Magnolia Bark Extract.

My first 4 weeks of a 6 week Phase One Stack begining in January 2013 has been:

* 1 cup coffee AM
* 2-3X day 50 mg Picamillon -- which has really helped boost / stabilize my mood AM, early PM, late PM.
* 2X 200 mg Phosphatidyl Serene -- AM/ early PM
* 2X 550mg American Ginseng or 2X 500mg complex of Ginseng, Rhodiola & Ashwagandha AM/earlyPM
* 2X 6000mg pure Inositol Powder AM/early PM
* 1X 1000mg Krill Oil capsule AM only
* 1X day of 40 min. moderate intensity cycling workout -- I started biking to the Library to study 6 hours per day.

I cut way back on consuming saturated fats ( butter, cheese, rich dairy/ ice cream etc. ) and added lots of Green Leafys & Chlorella & healthy protein -- e.g. 3 eggs / day in AM, fish 2-3X week, daily salads and very limited red meat 1X week -- to my nutrition plan over four weeks.

My cognitive performance improved by 20% as measured via my trending BPI scores on the Brain Training Games I do on Lumosity.com during the first four weeks.

Then, after the first 4 weeks, I added the following which I have been on for the past two weeks:

* 2X 500mg ALCAR -- AM/earlyPM
* 2X 500mg Centrophenoxine -- AM 30 min after Picamillon / earlyPM
* 1X 100mg Glutamine
* 2-3X 45mg Idebenone -- a powerful antioxidant, free radical scavenging, neural mitochondrial mtDNA enhancing, fat soluble synthetic analog of CoQ10.

In just the past two weeks, my cognitive performance on Lumosity jumped up by another 30% ( as measured by my BPI -- Brain Performance Index -- via Lumosity.com's daily Brain Test Taking ).

Here's what research on these substances shows that may be making such a quick cognitive improvement:

1. The ALCAR gave me a sense of sustained energy ( testosterone effect??) since carnitines play an important role in lipid metabolism and energy production essential for normal mitochondrial function, acting as a transporter of long-chain fatty acids into the mitochondria for beta-oxidation. Acetyl-L-carnitine is structurally related to acetylcholine. It also serves as a precursor to acetyl coenzyme A, crucial to ATP formation and contributes acetyl groups to acetylcholine. Acetyl-L-carnitine may also lessen oxidative stress and prevent oxidative damage in the brain better than L-carnitine. Acetyl-L-carnitine is thought to improve neural blood flow, boost testosterone & slow neuronal degeneration or help in the regeneration and repair of neurons and therefore decrease excessive excitability and firing. Additionally, preliminary clinical research suggests that acetyl-L-carnitine might also improve glucose utilization, possibly by increasing expression of glycolytic and gluconeogenic enzymes. Preliminary research suggests ALCAR might also increase the activity of nerve growth factor and promote peripheral nerve regeneration. It might also have analgesic properties. However, it doesn't seem to affect viral load or CD4 or CD8 cell counts. Research is conflicting on whether it can modestly improve nerve conduction velocity. In patients who have neuropathic pain as the most significant symptoms, taking acetyl-L-carnitine 1000 mg two to three times daily also decreases neuropathy-related pain within six months of beginning treatment. Doses of 500 mg three times daily do not seem to reduce pain.

2. Idebenone appears to be a very potent antioxidant, helping brain & heart energy levels and cleaning out potential toxic free radicals in neuronal tissue such as hydroxyl & superoxide free radicals that can linger in the brain & spine & heart tissue when blood flow to these regions is sub-optimal, causing damage to neuronal/ organelle structures like components of the lipid (fatty) cell membranes, as well as the lipid membranes surrounding the various organelles (“little organs”), such as mitochondria and microsomes, inside these cells. Unhealthy cell oxidation damage reduces ATP energy generation by the electron transport chain. Brain and spinal cord cells are especially prone to such oxidative / metabolic waist damage, and without strong antioxidant support, cells may be irreparably damaged or even destroyed. Studies have shown that under the same cellular low oxygen conditions that cause Co Q10 to act as a pro-oxidant producer of damaging free radicals, Idebenone prevents the free radical damage and maintains relatively normal cell ATP levels. In short, while Idebenone can effectively substitute for Co Q10′s positive and life essential functions, it doesn’t have Co Q10′s free radical producing and energy crashing “dark side” which occurs under hypoxic (low oxygen) conditions.

Aging -- a form of long term 'oxidation' of the brain & body -- has been shown to degrade mitochondrial DNA, for example, Iron plays a positive and negative role in the brain. Iron is absolutely essential for life, it plays a central role in ATP generation in the electron transport chain. Yet iron can also be a powerful initiator of free radical production and cell structural damage, especially under low brain oxygen & blood flow conditions that can occur during chronic stress, fatigue, insomnia and in people with sedentary life styles. Idebenone has been shown to prevent iron ions from their risk of wastefully and toxically diverting oxygen to produce free radicals inside the mitochondria, instead of ATP energy.

Idebenone has been shown to enhance seratonin production, even under far less than optimal conditions, as e.g. with a very low tryptophan diet, or in patients with cerebrovascular dementia.

Idebenone appears to be synergistic with cholinergic substances and has enhanced cholinergic nerve function and consequent learning ability even under hypoxic conditions, or when an anti-cholinergic drug (Scopolamine) was administered. Idebenone has increased cellular catecholamine ( dopamine, adrenalin and noradrenalin) by enhancing cellular uptake of the precursor amino acid, tyrosine.

Idebenone may enhance long term potentiation in hippocampal nerve cells, a key part of memory formation and consolidation. Idebenone has restored glucose (brain fuel) utilization and ATP production in ischemic (poor blood flow) rat-brain.

Idebenone has been shown to enhance general cerebral metabolism, lessen the damage from strokes, and has been used to treat Alzheimer’s and other dementias. Like piracetam, Idebenone has been shown to promote information transfer across the corpus callosum, the membrane separating the right and left brain hemispheres.


Idebenone has shown dramatic protective effects against glutamate toxicity. Glutamic acid and aspartic acid are the two chief excitatory amino acid neurotransmitters in the human brain. Without them we would be “mental vegetables.” Yet under certain conditions, e.g. stroke or traumatic brain injury- excessive amounts of excitatory amino acids accumulate in the fluid surrounding brain cells, causing damage and even death to nerve and glial cells through free radical mechanisms. Excitatory amino acid toxicity -- e.g. from MSG in food -- is at least partly responsible for the neurotoxicity of the recreational drug “Ecstasy or MDMA.” Studies over the past 30 years have also shown that excessive dietary intake of excitatory amino acids may also damage brain structure/ function, especially in children or excitatory amino acid sensitive adults -- e.g. those of us sensitive to MSG in food and the artificial sweetener aspartame (Nutrasweet). Also many processed foods (e.g. canned soups, dry roasted spiced peanuts, beef/ chicken bouillon, canned tuna) contain “hydrolized vegetable protein, yeast extract, soy protein isolate” and similar ingredients that are mostly excitatory amino acids.

In studies with various types of nerve cell, as well as oligodendroglial cells (which make up the protective myelin sheaths surrounding many nerves, the so-called “white matter” of the brain). Idebenone has shown significant protective effects against glutamate toxicity.

3. Inositol is sometimes called vitamin B-8. I began seeing a decrease in mood related & insomnia symptoms within 2 days of starting Inositol, which surprised me greatly. I think the powder is a nicer form to take it. It mixes easily in water and anything that helps me drink more water the better. Tastes lightly sweet too.

Inositol is a sugar alcohol and an isomer of glucose, vital for normal brain function, is found mostly within cell membranes. Myo-inositol is the most abundant stereoisomer, making up 95% of the total free inositol in the body. All the major neurotransmitter systems use inositol as part of their messaging transmission - e.g. dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, and acetylcholine. Inositol assists a wide number of synaptic receptor types/subtypes that facilitate neuronal signal transduction pathways.

Due to a lack of research, little is known about the safety of long-term use of inositol. Inositol is used in the production of inositol triphosphate and diacylglycerol, both of which are molecules involved in the system that allows communication between neurotransmitters and the interior of cells. It is believed that a decrease in inositol could lead to a shortage of these two molecules, causing mood-regulating neurotransmitters not to be able to properly communicate with the interior of brain cells. Supplementation with inositol may help depression by improving the functioning of this messenger system.


To date, there have been no reports of toxicity or drug-drug interactions with inositol.
Fruits and vegetables that are especially rich in inositol include: cabbage, beans, legumes, seeds, nuts, cantaloupe, bananas, raisins, oranges and other citrus fruits. It is also found in wheat, cereal, oat flakes, wheat bran, wheat germ, brown rice, brewer's yeast and unrefined molasses.


4. Centrophenoxine -- Centrophenoxine is one of the original anti-aging, neuroenergizing drugs, FDA approved as Lucidril in the 1960s. Centrophenoxine is a compound of dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) which is part of the choline / betaine cycle -- natural to human & animal cells, and parachlorophenoxyacetate (pCPA). Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) is a natural food component, found especially in fish, and is also a natural metabolite of the human body. Centrophenoxine’s other half, pCPA, is a synthetic compound similar to a variety of plant hormones called “auxins has long being known to be extremely effective at reducing lipofuscin levels. Lipofuscin describes the potassium build up in the brain, heart, lung and skin cells. This biochemical clutter accumulates over a lifetime, sometimes reaching 30% of the cell volume in aged animals.

The more lipofuscin a cell accumulates, the less functional it becomes, and once a critical threshold has been reached the cell may die. Both human and animal studies have shown that low lipofuscin levels correlate with healthy cellular function, while high lipofuscin accompanies poor cellular health.

High lipofuscin levels were reduced by centrophenoxine, also had their memory and learning abilities restored to a level similar to healthy young animals, while untreated high lipofuscin control animals did not.

By adding a methyl group (CH3) to DMAE, choline (also called trimethylaminoethanol) is formed. The choline thus formed may then be used to make other valuable biochemicals, such as the major neurotransmitter acetylcholine, or the essential membrane constituents phosphatidylcholine and sphingomyelin. Centrophenoxine, which is more than just DMAE, also has a general activating effect on brain function. Centrophenoxine enhances neuronal glucose (the chief brain fuel) and oxygen uptake, while increasing carbon dioxide production, all signs of increased brain ATP production. Centrophenoxine also increases neuronal RNA and protein production. RNA (derived from DNA in the cell nucleus) “instructs” neurons how to form proteins which help encode memory, as well as repair cell damage. Yet brain RNA and protein production normally drop with age, and especially when large lipofuscin deposits form around the cell nucleus, one of the main sites where lipofuscin accumulates in old age. Centrophenoxine reverses this age-related drop. Centrophenoxine has been shown to increase repair of the synapses that connect nerve cells to each other- while untreated aging synapses tend to deteriorate in number, structure and function. Thus, because of the unique plant auxin like substance pCPA that is combined with DMAE to make centrophenoxine, centrophenoxine may be considered the ultimate “DMAE plus.”

Centrophenoxine is a powerful enhancer of brain and peripheral nervous system acetylcholine levels, and, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, too much acetylcholine can cause problems i.e. headaches, muscle tension, insomnia and hyper excitability, I am planning to discontinue use of CDP-Choline and take Choline Bitrate only every 3 days as needed.

So far for me, Centrophenxine seems more powerful than the CDP - Choline in terms of brain energy boost without mania, stronger visual clarity *& stim, and memory.
Also, it's cholinergic effect may make Centrophenoxine more synergistic with Piracetam and the other racetams.

After my two to three week trial of adding Centrophenoxine modulating dosage as needed-- 2X500mg AM/earlyPM -- my plan is to start a trial of Piracetam with the Centrophenoxine and cutting back to 250mg / day of Picamilon (GABA) and no CDC-Choline unless I have anticholenergic symptoms.

Sorry for the long rambling post... Does anyone here have personal experience with Centrophenoxine that they would like to share?

PTShapeShifter






3. Dentro
. pre-racetam phase, where I am focusing first, on addressing any 'obvious' imbalances among 4 top neurotransmitters -- Dopamine, ACTH, GABA & Seratonin & based on the scoresI got taking the Neurotransmitter Nature & Balance Assessment Questionaires published by Dr. Eric Braverman M.D.'s in his book: "The Edge Effect: Reverse or Prevent Alzheimer's, Aging, Memory Loss, Weight Gain, Sexual Dysfunction & More". According to the Q'aire, I am predominantly ACTH Based, with deficiencies in both ACTH and GABA. clearing out establish a

[lifeisabeach]

Great post...

This is probably one of the best economical - logical stacks out there for a student on a budget. I'm going to give this a shot.

one thing I to add to specifics on the Fish Oil... If you suffer from what seems to be ADHD there have been studies linking a possible deficit of EPA / DHA in the body (brain), by biological theory due to an inability of the body being able to produce/convert enough of it on its own. Get atleast 5-750mg of EPA/DHA in everyday. NOW makes a super omega that has a lot of this and is cheaper 240caps/$25 - also krill oil will have the same higher content and less "fishiness."


Noopmed - I do enjoy the vape, especially the lack of smoke makes it tolerable for me to enjoy it without the panicky feeling I get from the smoke inhalation. I've also noticed the difference in canniboids released @ 185 vs 195 C* and the effects the two temperatures enduce is great depending on how much you need. Unforunately, I've had to stop in partaking since my school is stringent on testing. So I've switched over to Kratom for my relaxation mode - specifically "red" strained.

[FreeMyBrain]

Hi, these are great posts and very informative. I've noticed with ALCAR it definitely gives a bit of an energy boost for a few days or week or so, but then kind of levels off. It's almost like I have to cycle off and then back on it to get the same energizing effect. As far as NAC, I take that quite often as it helps me with lung function (asthma) and helps me breathe easier, good for immune support (glutathione production) etc. etc. so would be interested in combining it with Lion's Mane and Noopept.

Thanks for the info.

[NoopMed]

4. Centrophenoxine -- Centrophenoxine is one of the original anti-aging, neuroenergizing drugs, FDA approved as Lucidril in the 1960s. Centrophenoxine is a compound of dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) which is part of the choline / betaine cycle -- natural to human & animal cells, and parachlorophenoxyacetate (pCPA). Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) is a natural food component, found especially in fish, and is also a natural metabolite of the human body. Centrophenoxine’s other half, pCPA, is a synthetic compound similar to a variety of plant hormones called “auxins has long being known to be extremely effective at reducing lipofuscin levels. Lipofuscin describes the potassium build up in the brain, heart, lung and skin cells. This biochemical clutter accumulates over a lifetime, sometimes reaching 30% of the cell volume in aged animals.

The more lipofuscin a cell accumulates, the less functional it becomes, and once a critical threshold has been reached the cell may die. Both human and animal studies have shown that low lipofuscin levels correlate with healthy cellular function, while high lipofuscin accompanies poor cellular health.

High lipofuscin levels were reduced by centrophenoxine, also had their memory and learning abilities restored to a level similar to healthy young animals, while untreated high lipofuscin control animals did not.

By adding a methyl group (CH3) to DMAE, choline (also called trimethylaminoethanol) is formed. The choline thus formed may then be used to make other valuable biochemicals, such as the major neurotransmitter acetylcholine, or the essential membrane constituents phosphatidylcholine and sphingomyelin. Centrophenoxine, which is more than just DMAE, also has a general activating effect on brain function. Centrophenoxine enhances neuronal glucose (the chief brain fuel) and oxygen uptake, while increasing carbon dioxide production, all signs of increased brain ATP production. Centrophenoxine also increases neuronal RNA and protein production. RNA (derived from DNA in the cell nucleus) “instructs” neurons how to form proteins which help encode memory, as well as repair cell damage. Yet brain RNA and protein production normally drop with age, and especially when large lipofuscin deposits form around the cell nucleus, one of the main sites where lipofuscin accumulates in old age. Centrophenoxine reverses this age-related drop. Centrophenoxine has been shown to increase repair of the synapses that connect nerve cells to each other- while untreated aging synapses tend to deteriorate in number, structure and function. Thus, because of the unique plant auxin like substance pCPA that is combined with DMAE to make centrophenoxine, centrophenoxine may be considered the ultimate “DMAE plus.”

Centrophenoxine is a powerful enhancer of brain and peripheral nervous system acetylcholine levels, and, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, too much acetylcholine can cause problems i.e. headaches, muscle tension, insomnia and hyper excitability, I am planning to discontinue use of CDP-Choline and take Choline Bitrate only every 3 days as needed.

So far for me, Centrophenxine seems more powerful than the CDP - Choline in terms of brain energy boost without mania, stronger visual clarity *& stim, and memory.
Also, it's cholinergic effect may make Centrophenoxine more synergistic with Piracetam and the other racetams.

After my two to three week trial of adding Centrophenoxine modulating dosage as needed-- 2X500mg AM/earlyPM -- my plan is to start a trial of Piracetam with the Centrophenoxine and cutting back to 250mg / day of Picamilon (GABA) and no CDC-Choline unless I have anticholenergic symptoms.

Sorry for the long rambling post... Does anyone here have personal experience with Centrophenoxine that they would like to share?

PTShapeShifter

Excellent post PTShapeShifter, thanks for the insight. I found what you said about Centrophenoxine intriguing and did a bit of background research, and it seems to have shown some significant benefit in cognitive function in several studies, particularly in the realm of aiding and improving the function of acetylcholine pathways. I was wondering what article you read regarding it's ability to reduce brain lipofuscin. While I'm quite familiar with lipofuscin, several of my neuroscience professors felt it did not significantly inhibit neuron function, and was mostly a benign pigment associated with normal aging. (Not that I entirely believe them, however. It still seems possibly that it would be interfering by some mechanism.) Do you have any sources discussing effects on cognition in otherwise normal individuals (aka, not dementia or another degenerative brain disease-- due to concern about confounding evidence in those kinda studies...) with significant lipofuscin buildup?

Also, where do you find your Centrophenoxine? I've only found a couple sources online, one from a brand I don't particularly like/trust.

[deh707]

4. Centrophenoxine -- Centrophenoxine is one of the original anti-aging, neuroenergizing drugs, FDA approved as Lucidril in the 1960s. Centrophenoxine is a compound of dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) which is part of the choline / betaine cycle -- natural to human & animal cells, and parachlorophenoxyacetate (pCPA). Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) is a natural food component, found especially in fish, and is also a natural metabolite of the human body. Centrophenoxine’s other half, pCPA, is a synthetic compound similar to a variety of plant hormones called “auxins has long being known to be extremely effective at reducing lipofuscin levels. Lipofuscin describes the potassium build up in the brain, heart, lung and skin cells. This biochemical clutter accumulates over a lifetime, sometimes reaching 30% of the cell volume in aged animals.

The more lipofuscin a cell accumulates, the less functional it becomes, and once a critical threshold has been reached the cell may die. Both human and animal studies have shown that low lipofuscin levels correlate with healthy cellular function, while high lipofuscin accompanies poor cellular health.

High lipofuscin levels were reduced by centrophenoxine, also had their memory and learning abilities restored to a level similar to healthy young animals, while untreated high lipofuscin control animals did not.

By adding a methyl group (CH3) to DMAE, choline (also called trimethylaminoethanol) is formed. The choline thus formed may then be used to make other valuable biochemicals, such as the major neurotransmitter acetylcholine, or the essential membrane constituents phosphatidylcholine and sphingomyelin. Centrophenoxine, which is more than just DMAE, also has a general activating effect on brain function. Centrophenoxine enhances neuronal glucose (the chief brain fuel) and oxygen uptake, while increasing carbon dioxide production, all signs of increased brain ATP production. Centrophenoxine also increases neuronal RNA and protein production. RNA (derived from DNA in the cell nucleus) “instructs” neurons how to form proteins which help encode memory, as well as repair cell damage. Yet brain RNA and protein production normally drop with age, and especially when large lipofuscin deposits form around the cell nucleus, one of the main sites where lipofuscin accumulates in old age. Centrophenoxine reverses this age-related drop. Centrophenoxine has been shown to increase repair of the synapses that connect nerve cells to each other- while untreated aging synapses tend to deteriorate in number, structure and function. Thus, because of the unique plant auxin like substance pCPA that is combined with DMAE to make centrophenoxine, centrophenoxine may be considered the ultimate “DMAE plus.”

Centrophenoxine is a powerful enhancer of brain and peripheral nervous system acetylcholine levels, and, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, too much acetylcholine can cause problems i.e. headaches, muscle tension, insomnia and hyper excitability, I am planning to discontinue use of CDP-Choline and take Choline Bitrate only every 3 days as needed.

So far for me, Centrophenxine seems more powerful than the CDP - Choline in terms of brain energy boost without mania, stronger visual clarity *& stim, and memory.
Also, it's cholinergic effect may make Centrophenoxine more synergistic with Piracetam and the other racetams.

After my two to three week trial of adding Centrophenoxine modulating dosage as needed-- 2X500mg AM/earlyPM -- my plan is to start a trial of Piracetam with the Centrophenoxine and cutting back to 250mg / day of Picamilon (GABA) and no CDC-Choline unless I have anticholenergic symptoms.

Sorry for the long rambling post... Does anyone here have personal experience with Centrophenoxine that they would like to share?

PTShapeShifter

Excellent post PTShapeShifter, thanks for the insight. I found what you said about Centrophenoxine intriguing and did a bit of background research, and it seems to have shown some significant benefit in cognitive function in several studies, particularly in the realm of aiding and improving the function of acetylcholine pathways. I was wondering what article you read regarding it's ability to reduce brain lipofuscin. While I'm quite familiar with lipofuscin, several of my neuroscience professors felt it did not significantly inhibit neuron function, and was mostly a benign pigment associated with normal aging. (Not that I entirely believe them, however. It still seems possibly that it would be interfering by some mechanism.) Do you have any sources discussing effects on cognition in otherwise normal individuals (aka, not dementia or another degenerative brain disease-- due to concern about confounding evidence in those kinda studies...) with significant lipofuscin buildup?

Also, where do you find your Centrophenoxine? I've only found a couple sources online, one from a brand I don't particularly like/trust.

I hear these guys are pretty reliable.

http://newstarnootro....com/other.html

Edited by deh707, 04 March 2013 - 06:10 AM.

[PTShapeShifter]

Thanks NoopMed ~ I found over a dozen PubMed listed research articles on both human and rat research relating Centrophenoxine to brain lipofuscin and specific neuronal effects of aging. Easy access by a PubMed search on: 'Centrophenoxine and brain lipofuscin' . Since this post, I have added 2 to 3 X 800 mg Piracetam to my stack and am finding there is a very positive synergistic effect between 1 x 500mg Centrophenoxine and 1-2X 800mg Piracetam in the early AM followed by the same again prior to 2PM. I get a very positive cholinergic effect from the Centro that supports the effect of how Piracetam enhances acetylcholine.

One of my main current goals with my nootropic stack is to add effective brain 'clearing' anti-oxidants and other agents to clear / unblock / detoxify as much as possible, neuronal junctions and related brain tissue to help max. my neuronal function before taking the next step to rebalance / enhance any further neurotransmitter levels with racetam et. al. protocols that I plan to try. That's why I'm so excited about the detox effects of both Idebenone ( purported to be 30X stronger than CoQ10 ) and Centrophenoxine. Seems to make the Piracetam work better for me at relatively low doses. My neuropathophysiology, pathokinesiology & anatomical biomechanics text book reading seems to be going much more smoothly, effectively & with much greater focus under my current nootropic stack. Do you have any recommendations for trying a more powerful race tam combo during testing weeks? I just ordered a test supply of Prameracetam for such a purpose.

As for suuppliers of Centrophenoxine, I started with JL Npootropics with excellent results. But I also agree with deh707 that New Star Nootropics is excellent as I use them for Piracetam.

Hope alls well with you as you scale up prepping for your upcoming Med Boards!

PTShapeShifter

[PTShapeShifter]

Here is one example of rat brain research showing the correlation between administration of Centrophenoxine and a reduction of Lipofuscin-containing neurons and an associated increase of MUAs in aging rat brains:

Indian J Exp Biol. 1996 Aug;34(8):776-81.

Age-related decline in multiple unit action potentials of cerebral cortex correlates with the number of lipofuscin-containing neurons.

Sharma D, Singh R.

Source

Neurobiology Laboratory, School of Life Sciences, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi, India.

Abstract


The present study examined whether there is any obvious correlation between the density of lipofuscin-containing neurons and the spontaneous neuronal action potentials (Multiple Unit Activity, MUA) in the parietal cortex of the aging rat brain. The results showed that MUA counts were decreased with age while the number of lipofuscin-containing neurons was increased. The cortex with the highest percentage of lipofuscin-containing neurons had the lowest MUA counts while the cortex with the lowest percentage of lipofuscin-containing neurons had the highest MUA counts. The inverse correlation between MUA and lipofuscin-containing neuron number was also evident when the population of the lipofuscin-containing neurons was pharmacologically altered in vivo by the administration of anti-lipofuscin drug centrophenoxine. The inverse relationship between MUA and thelipofuscin-containing neuron numbers is consistent with: (i) the correlations of MUA with age-related changes in lipid peroxidation and biochemically measured lipofuscin concentration, and (ii) the oxidative stress-induced impairments of neuronal electrophysiology.

PMID: 8979484 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[PTShapeShifter]

Here's one more link to several research papers citing Centrophenoxine and its positive impact on cognition:

http://smartdrugsfor...centrophenoxine

PTShapeShifter

[Major Legend]

If a well studied nootropic like Piracetam is working fine, why switch to a stronger and less studied racetam like Pramiracetam? Its more expensive, higher risk of side effects and burn out (downregulation).

I intend of saving myself from the more potent racetams until I really need to remember a boat load of stuff - until then I don't see the point in spending the money or risk compromising the efficacy of other weaker supplements due to down regulation.

Edited by Major Legend, 05 March 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[X0yc3]

I am not an expert but I 've read few research reports on Ginkgo which showed not to improve memory or cognitive performance, so I wonder why are you taking it?

Edited by X0yc3, 05 March 2013 - 02:52 PM.

[NoopMed]

Here is one example of rat brain research showing the correlation between administration of Centrophenoxine and a reduction of Lipofuscin-containing neurons and an associated increase of MUAs in aging rat brains:

Indian J Exp Biol. 1996 Aug;34(8):776-81.

Age-related decline in multiple unit action potentials of cerebral cortex correlates with the number of lipofuscin-containing neurons.

Sharma D, Singh R.

Source

Neurobiology Laboratory, School of Life Sciences, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi, India.

Abstract


The present study examined whether there is any obvious correlation between the density of lipofuscin-containing neurons and the spontaneous neuronal action potentials (Multiple Unit Activity, MUA) in the parietal cortex of the aging rat brain. The results showed that MUA counts were decreased with age while the number of lipofuscin-containing neurons was increased. The cortex with the highest percentage of lipofuscin-containing neurons had the lowest MUA counts while the cortex with the lowest percentage of lipofuscin-containing neurons had the highest MUA counts. The inverse correlation between MUA and lipofuscin-containing neuron number was also evident when the population of the lipofuscin-containing neurons was pharmacologically altered in vivo by the administration of anti-lipofuscin drug centrophenoxine. The inverse relationship between MUA and thelipofuscin-containing neuron numbers is consistent with: (i) the correlations of MUA with age-related changes in lipid peroxidation and biochemically measured lipofuscin concentration, and (ii) the oxidative stress-induced impairments of neuronal electrophysiology.

PMID: 8979484 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Definitely appears to be a convincing study, particularly for an older individual seeking to 'rejuvenate' their mind. I'm certainly on the older end of the medical student spectrum as I returned to school after many years as an allied provider in the professional realm of healthcare, but I'm not sure at what age Centro would become particularly beneficial to humans.

My concern with many of the studies demonstrating lipofuscin effects and buildup are that they're mostly done in mouse/rat studies. Normally that doesn't bother me too much, but this phenomenon appears to be highly age dependent and also dependent on the failure of mitochondria (which are fairly conserved in structure between mice and men). Of course, we know humans also have a buildup of lipofuscin that is found in brain biopsy or autopsy, but I can't seem to find a study that provides a rate of build up in humans-- ie, to correlate to the age when something like Centro would be useful. The first study identifying homology between rat and human lipofuscin was just published last August. It confirmed that the content of human lipofuscin is very similar (not exactly the same, but close) to the content of rat lipofuscin. (Just for people that aren't aware, Lipofuscin formation appears to depend on the rate of oxidative damage to proteins, the functionality of mitochondrial repair systems, the proteasomal system, and the functionality and effectiveness of the lysosomes. It consists of oxidized proteins and lipids and forms an amber colored, consolidating mass of pigment in the cytosol of cells--but NOT the nucleus. It appears that it may adversely effect the formation of membrane potentials, and likely the generation of action potentials by neurons.) Since some homology between rat and human lipofuscin does appear to exist, and humans have a lifespan that is often 40x longer than that of the rats used in these studies... you can see where I'm going here. I'm assuming a two year old child would not likely benefit from degradation of lipofuscin by Centrophenoxine... I hope more studies come out in the future that are able to track lipofuscin build up in humans. At this point, I would venture a haphazard guess that lipofuscin reaches minimum significant levels in the human brain sometime in the person's 40s+, but I have nothing to back that up-- other than the observations of people I've known to complain of not "feeling as sharp as they did in their youth." In the meantime, the production of DMAE with the breakdown of Centro in the brain is still probably beneficial to the provision of precursors to acetylcholine and as a direct mental stimulant. My only concern there is the grumblings of various people on this forum and others about DMAE being a methyl group thief, leading to reduced levels of SAM-e (s-adenosylmethionine) and possible demethylation of genes that are better off with their current epigenetic modifications (often provided by simple methylation mechanism under normal conditions). Some people mention supplementing SAM-e if you plan to supplement DMAE or precursors to it, long term.

[PTShapeShifter]

If a well studied nootropic like Piracetam is working fine, why switch to a stronger and less studied racetam like Pramiracetam? Its more expensive, higher risk of side effects and burn out (downregulation).

I intend of saving myself from the more potent racetams until I really need to remember a boat load of stuff - until then I don't see the point in spending the money or risk compromising the efficacy of other weaker supplements due to down regulation.

To Major Legend ~ I am a PhD student in my 50s looking for cognitive performance in medical / technical course work and research. I am very happy with my current nootropic stack, however, I find that Piracetam at 1-2g X2 / day serves my average daily study / research needs. I am considering ~ for exam prep days ~ either a higher dose of Piracetam or using a stronger race tam like Prameracetam. I recognize that each individual responds somewhat uniquely to such substances. So careful individual trials at graduating levels is what I always suggest. And we can certainly benefit from eachother's shared experience.

PTShapeShifter

[NoopMed]

I am not an expert but I 've read few research reports on Ginkgo which showed not to improve memory or cognitive performance, so I wonder why are you taking it?

There are studies implicating nearly everything discussed on this forum as either helping to improve cognitive performance or showing that they do nothing at all. Based on what I've read, Ginkgo biloba is one of the few substances I've discussed that has more studies supporting its efficacy than refuting it. Piracetam, for example, has more studies refuting than supporting, and general lack of formal research regarding its augmentation of cognition in normal, healthy patients.

Based on my personal experience, I find it to make a significant difference. It's the nootropic that I've used for the longest duration with the most consistent performance, and the least adverse effects. Aside from Piracetam, little else has made a measurable difference in my performance and daily cognition. So, I suppose that's why I take it, and have no plans to cease using it.

[NoopMed]

If a well studied nootropic like Piracetam is working fine, why switch to a stronger and less studied racetam like Pramiracetam? Its more expensive, higher risk of side effects and burn out (downregulation).

I intend of saving myself from the more potent racetams until I really need to remember a boat load of stuff - until then I don't see the point in spending the money or risk compromising the efficacy of other weaker supplements due to down regulation.

I agree with you that Piracetam is probably the best option if it's working well for you.

One problem with all these racetam derivatives is that they appear to effect users differently, and some specific variants either don't work at all or have greater efficacy depending on the individual. They certainly have different mechanisms that have been demonstrated in studies. Any study or advertisement claiming that, "Noopept (or any other racetam, ie Aniracetam, Pramiracetam, etc) is 1000x more potent than Piracetam! Buy now!" is simply blurring over important facts about how these drugs work. They're not simply "stronger." It's true that a lower dose many be needed to acquire an effect with some of these, but the mechanism by which they produce their effect has been shown to be achieved through different pathways in numerous papers studying their pharmacodynamics. ie. modulation of NMDA/AMPA receptors vs BDGF & NGF upregulation vs Pure AMPA activation vs GABA modulation, etc...

I've tried a small amount of nearly all of them now, just to see what they were like alone, and in combination with Piracetam. For me, Piracetam on its own, at a moderate dose (~1g, BID/TID) was actually more effective than almost all of them either alone or in combination. Oxiracetam, for example, provided a very stimulatory experience mimicking something like MDMA for me, but actually harms my studying and test taking. I simply can't focus when I take it. The only exception is Noopept, which seems to help with learning and information retention for me in combination with Piracetam, HOWEVER; Noopept also inhibits my test taking ability. It relaxes me a little too much for the intensity of an exam. When I say that it helps with learning, I mean that when I've taken it for an afternoon in combination with Piracetam, I will find enhanced recall the following day when reviewing that material (not while on the substance itself). I basically tried them all because I was curious if my particularly neuronal receptor expression was more amenable to a particular racetam. It wasn't about strength, it was about finding the ideal combination for studying and exam taking. I would caution strongly against planning to save more "potent" racetams for important events, without having tried them before. You might be surprised by them actually working far worse, or actually reducing performance, compared to Piracetam. (Of course, if you try them and find them to work VERY well, then by all means stock up and save them for the "Big Test" while avoiding downregulation.)



--------------------------------------------------------


Also,

I guess I haven't updated my current stack for a while, but this is what I'm currently doing (nothing exciting, I've honed in on what works well for me, and gone for the minimum. For a while I tried significantly lower doses of Piracetam, and found it to inhibit my performance badly at low dose-- it was actually far worse than if I stopped taking it altogether, which I also did for a while. I'm assuming at low dose, I only get the anxiolytic effects, and not the cognitive enhancement.):


AM:
Coffee
Fish Oil 1200mg
Lecithin 1200mg
Ginkgo biloba 120mg Timed Release
Piracetam 1200mg

Afternoon:

Ginkgo biloba 120mg Timed Release
Piracetam 800mg
Choline bitartrate 500mg

Evening (if studying late):

Piracetam 800mg
Choline bitartrate 500mg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Intense Study Session:
Ginkgo biloba 120mg Timed Release
Piracetam 1200mg
Choline bitartrate 500mg
Noopept 10-30mg


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Additionally, I tried Lion's Mane Mushroom for a while and it seemed to give me a mild eczema-like rash on my hands and face for a couple days. No thanks there.

Will likely try a bit of this centrophenoxine for a couple weeks in the near future.

[Major Legend]

If a well studied nootropic like Piracetam is working fine, why switch to a stronger and less studied racetam like Pramiracetam? Its more expensive, higher risk of side effects and burn out (downregulation).

I intend of saving myself from the more potent racetams until I really need to remember a boat load of stuff - until then I don't see the point in spending the money or risk compromising the efficacy of other weaker supplements due to down regulation.

To Major Legend ~ I am a PhD student in my 50s looking for cognitive performance in medical / technical course work and research. I am very happy with my current nootropic stack, however, I find that Piracetam at 1-2g X2 / day serves my average daily study / research needs. I am considering ~ for exam prep days ~ either a higher dose of Piracetam or using a stronger race tam like Prameracetam. I recognize that each individual responds somewhat uniquely to such substances. So careful individual trials at graduating levels is what I always suggest. And we can certainly benefit from eachother's shared experience.

PTShapeShifter

Here may be some useful info for someone who is their 50s, I found this one interesting, seems to be a good selection of stuff to try.

Top Ten Anti-Aging Supplements:
http://www.lef.org/m...ag95/95sep1.htm

Also this post by on Meta Brain seems to be a good regimen for older people in my opinion:

This is my first post in this forum but I am very knowledgeable in this particular area (schooling in neuroscience) and think I could help you out. Notice that I put "dot com" in the links so that I could post this as it is my first time posting in this forum.

When looking at the brain and human memory you have to consider a variety of things which increase ability to store, process, and recall information:

1) Cerebral blood flow - Neurons require large portions of our bodily blood flow to function effectively. More blood flow equates to increased oxygenation, which is required for energy formation from the powerhouse of our cells, mitochondria. More blood flow also increases nutrient and protein availability in order to express brain relevant genes and help in the conversion of precursor nutrients into relevant molecules that are required for optimal brain processing.

2) Adequate supply of nutrients required for the formation of neurotransmitters - these include amino acids such as tyrosine (adrenaline/epinephrine, noradrenaline/norepinephrine and dopamine), tryptophan (precursor to serotonin), acetyl-CoA and choline (precursors to acetylcholine formation), etc.

3) A large supply of antioxidants - When parts of your brain are very active then generate large quantities of reactive oxygen species (ROS) which go on to damage cellular proteins, cell membranes, etc. Antioxidants act to "mop up" these ROS and prevent their eventual "brain fog" causing properties.

4) Excitability level - Neurons only send transmission after they have received enough activation in order to "fire" and send on their signal. The most prevalent source of excitation for cerebral cortex neurons is through activation of glutamate channels. This excitation is mainly opposed by GABA and glycine, which effectively blunt the signal as they are inhibitory.

5) Levels of neuronal branching - Neurons receive signals through their dendrites, which are like the arms of a tree. The more interconnections between neurons, the more dendrites there will be, and the more information the system can hold (more connections between concepts are able to be formed).

6) Metabolic health - Neurons, as cells, are required to produce large amounts of ATP (the energy molecule of the cell). More ATP means that they can fire more times without getting as exhausted.

Alright, now that you have a little background let’s get in to what to do to boost brain function. Here are the basics first:

A) A general multivitamin (best/cheapest I find is LifeExtension's 2 per day multi's) - Provide you with the general nutrients to manufacture brain chemicals. I buy mine from iherb dot com. You can use my coupon code "DET108" for $5 off if you are a first time customer (if you don't want to use my referral coupon, "BUY123" is the generic one for iherb where you still get $5 off but don't give anyone commission).
B) Get plenty of exercise - While not a nootropic pill per say, this one is one of the best for increasing levels of nerve growth factor (NGF) and brain derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), both of which increase the amount of dendrite branching and increase connections between difficult concepts, which helps with memory and with solving problems.
C) Get AT LEAST 8 hours of sleep a night - helps with keeping neuron energy stores high and promotes larger brain levels of NGF and BDNF.

After you have those ones down pact, here are the supplements/drugs/herbs that will help you out. Most can be bought from iherb dot com or nutrabio dot com (cheapest sources). Take all on an empty stomach. All separate doses should be taken 4-6 hours apart. Do not take less than 4 hours before bed:

D) Coenzyme Q10 + Bioperine - Aids in ATP production in cells. Bioperine, which is usually found combined with CoQ10 helps with absorption of many different nootropics - recommend 100-200mg per day divided between 2 separate doses
E) Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) - Acts as an acetyl donor in the formation of acetylcholine. Helps transport fatty acids across the mitochondrial cell membrane to be used in the production of ATP. Increases receptors for NGF - Take 500mg, divided into 2 equal doses per day
F) Acetyl L Carnitine Arginate (ALCA) - Much of the same purpose as ALCAR, but the additional arginate enables the molecule to interact directly with the NGF receptors which ALCAR increased. - take 100-200mg per day, in 2 separate doses
G) Lion's Mane mushroom - Has a host of benefits including immune system boosting effects. Main effect you are looking for is its ability to stimulate NGF receptors. - Take 2-3 grams per day, in 2-3 divided doses. Cheapest source of this is "fungihealth dot com/affiliate/450", but the bulk 1 lb powder (yes this is an affiliate link, if you don't want to support me at all you can just remove the affiliate portion of the link). Lion's mane can also be purchased from iherb and some other sources on the internet. You want to make sure that the source you buy from uses extracted mycelium, and not only the fruiting body of the mushroom, as the myecilium contains the most active NGF boosting molecules (erinacines).
H) Choline citrate/bitartrate/Alpha-GPC/Etc. - act as the choline donor in the formation of acetylcholine - take up to 500mg per day, divided into 2 doses
I) Ginkgo biloba - Increases cerebral blood flow and acts as a antioxidant. - Use 50-100mg, divided into 2 separate doses
J) Gotu Kola, Rhodiola Rosea, Eleuthero, Brahmi - These ones have pretty complex mechanisms of action, but in short they acts to reduce stress from long study hours, increase attention, act as antioxidants, boost levels of synaptic neurotransmitters or act directly on neurotransmitter receptors. I recommend relatively low doses of these when combined together and when taken with the other supplements on this list. Gotu Kola - 100mg, Rhodiola Rosea - 50mg, Eleuthero - 100mg, Brahmi - 100mg. Divide all of these into 2 separate doses.
K) (Optional) Resveratrol - Increases the number and function of mitochondria within neural cells, helping with metabolic health and increasing levels of ATP. This one is also seen as an anti-aging aid as it increases expression of genes associated with long life (I won't get too much into that here). Take between 50-500mg (based on how much money you have to spend) in 2 divided doses.
L) Omega 3 fatty acids - Help with cell membrane stability, increases ability to concentrate and relieves stress over the long term. - Take up to five 1g capsules per day.

I don't think his regimen addresses the antioxidant problem very well, but instead of supplementing more pills, I would suggest a combination of green food powers and a good diet high in vegetables and fruit should be enough.

NAC (for energy and extra antioxidant effect) is also worth mentioning.

As I mentioned in other threads, I feel Noopept permanently alters the brain - in what way, we don't really know. So my generally advice would be to be careful with it.

Edited by Major Legend, 05 March 2013 - 04:58 PM.

[X0yc3]

Thanks for replay NoopMed. Your posts are very helpful. I never used any supplements till today, and I am planing o assemble my stack like this:

1 Standard energy dink with Caffein and Taurine
Ginkgo 120mg
Piracetam 800mg
Choline bitartrate 1000mg
Fish Oil 2000mg
B-Complex 500mg

[jjtitus]

Thanks NoopMed for the update, it sounds like your stack experimentation is going well still with only minor modifications. I've been following a similar stack and testing various nootropics.

A few personal notes from my testing over the last 3 months:

I've also found that 1-1.2g doses (2x per day) of piracetam were needed to achieve the cognitive benefits, with lower dosages resulting in little to no benefit. Higher dosages (2-3x daily dosage) provide an extra boost when needed, but adding larger and larger dosages had diminishing returns.

I tried aniracetam out for a month at various dosages, and even when taking 1-1.5g it didn't produce any noticeable cognitive benefits At higher dosages the benefit/cost ratio is even worse and not worth it for me.

I've been experimenting with Lion's Mane (http://www.mushroomh...4q0lmbneu5klcm1), it's a high quality organic full spectrum lion's mane powder with a minimum beta glucan content of 15%. Over the last 2 months I've been taking 1 Tbsp in the morning on an empty stomach so that I could better judge the effects. Many sources said it could take months to notice any changes, but even after upping the dosage to 2 Tbsp per day (1 morning, 1 evening) the last two weeks I haven't noticed any cognitive/memory improvements. In fact, I'd say my memory has become cloudier and it's harder to recall certain things, and I've been feeling more tired. It's almost as if the clarity I gained from the piracetam was slowly getting diminished with the addition of the Lion's Mane (so slow I didn't notice at first). Interestingly, I also experienced a mild rash around the mouth area on my face, especially when I upped the dosage to 2 Tbsp per day. At this point, I have decided to permanently shelve the Lion's Mane powder and end experimenting with it. Definitely not for me.

I've also been experimenting with Maca (http://www.skyfieldt...ID=38&category=) during this time period as well, and I think without the maca root powder the effects of the Lion's Mane might have been even more severe (I started the maca about 1 month into the Lion's Mane experiment, noticed immediate improvement in alertness). This powder is organic from the black root maca, and is gelatinized to neutralize the goitrogens inherent in raw root powder (watch out for this). This is not necessarily a cognitive enhancer, but the increased alertness and energy definitely help me focus and power through the work I have to finish.


Current Stack:

AM -
Coffee
Maca (1Tbsp)
Ginkgo biloba 120mg (Ginkgo Biloba GOLD)
B-Complex (Jarrow B-right)
Neuro Optimizer (Jarrow, half dosage)
Piracetam (1-1.2g)

PM -
Alpha GPC if needed (300mg)
Piracetam (1-1.2g)

After reading a few of PTShapeShifter's posts, I decided to pick up some pramiracetam and centrophenoxine from New Star, which should arrive by the end of the week. I'll begin experimenting with each independently and in combination with my current stack and see how things go. I've also been interested in trying out Nattokinase to see if that has any cognitive effects. Lets keep this thread and experimentation going!

[NoopMed]

Thanks NoopMed for the update, it sounds like your stack experimentation is going well still with only minor modifications. I've been following a similar stack and testing various nootropics.

A few personal notes from my testing over the last 3 months:

I've also found that 1-1.2g doses (2x per day) of piracetam were needed to achieve the cognitive benefits, with lower dosages resulting in little to no benefit. Higher dosages (2-3x daily dosage) provide an extra boost when needed, but adding larger and larger dosages had diminishing returns.

I tried aniracetam out for a month at various dosages, and even when taking 1-1.5g it didn't produce any noticeable cognitive benefits At higher dosages the benefit/cost ratio is even worse and not worth it for me.

I've been experimenting with Lion's Mane (http://www.mushroomh...4q0lmbneu5klcm1), it's a high quality organic full spectrum lion's mane powder with a minimum beta glucan content of 15%. Over the last 2 months I've been taking 1 Tbsp in the morning on an empty stomach so that I could better judge the effects. Many sources said it could take months to notice any changes, but even after upping the dosage to 2 Tbsp per day (1 morning, 1 evening) the last two weeks I haven't noticed any cognitive/memory improvements. In fact, I'd say my memory has become cloudier and it's harder to recall certain things, and I've been feeling more tired. It's almost as if the clarity I gained from the piracetam was slowly getting diminished with the addition of the Lion's Mane (so slow I didn't notice at first). Interestingly, I also experienced a mild rash around the mouth area on my face, especially when I upped the dosage to 2 Tbsp per day. At this point, I have decided to permanently shelve the Lion's Mane powder and end experimenting with it. Definitely not for me.

I've also been experimenting with Maca (http://www.skyfieldt...ID=38&category=) during this time period as well, and I think without the maca root powder the effects of the Lion's Mane might have been even more severe (I started the maca about 1 month into the Lion's Mane experiment, noticed immediate improvement in alertness). This powder is organic from the black root maca, and is gelatinized to neutralize the goitrogens inherent in raw root powder (watch out for this). This is not necessarily a cognitive enhancer, but the increased alertness and energy definitely help me focus and power through the work I have to finish.


Current Stack:

AM -
Coffee
Maca (1Tbsp)
Ginkgo biloba 120mg (Ginkgo Biloba GOLD)
B-Complex (Jarrow B-right)
Neuro Optimizer (Jarrow, half dosage)
Piracetam (1-1.2g)

PM -
Alpha GPC if needed (300mg)
Piracetam (1-1.2g)

After reading a few of PTShapeShifter's posts, I decided to pick up some pramiracetam and centrophenoxine from New Star, which should arrive by the end of the week. I'll begin experimenting with each independently and in combination with my current stack and see how things go. I've also been interested in trying out Nattokinase to see if that has any cognitive effects. Lets keep this thread and experimentation going!

Thanks for the response. Your experimentation with Lion's Mane sounds remarkably similar to my own. As far as the subjective feelings of cloudiness, etc. I also encountered this, and it's similar to what I experience while ON larger doses of Noopept, but I found that what I did study and focus on learning actually stuck better in my long term recall the next day. Both Noopept and Lion's Mane are purported to work through upregulation of BDNF (brain-derived neurotrophic factor) and NGF (nerve growth factor). Upregulation of these hormones should increase dendrite differentiation and nerve axon growth, which are important to learning and cognitive function, but I hypothesize based on my experience with each that the extrinsic upregulation of these hormones may actually result in somewhat disordered mental performance in the setting of active/acute usage, while providing benefit later on (the next day, etc). Obviously no evidence for any of that, but that's how I explain my subjective experience of it.

Maca sounds interesting, a boost in energy is always welcomed! I find it amusing that Nat Med cites its strongest evidence in its ability to "Enhance Sexual Desire." I read the study, and it apparently does this without alteration in most of the measures correlated to depression and leaves testosterone unaffected. My girlfriend might appreciate this after a long day of studying...

Here's the Natural Medicine Database writeup:

MACA

Scientific Name:
Lepidium meyenii, synonym Lepidium peruvianum.
Family: Brassicaceae/Cruciferae.
People Use This For:
Orally, maca is used for anemia; chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS); and enhancing energy, stamina, athletic performance, and memory. It is also used for female hormone imbalance and menstrual irregularities, enhancing fertility, menopause symptoms, osteoporosis, depression, stomach cancer, leukemia, HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis, impotence, as an aphrodisiac, and as an immunostimulant.
In foods, maca is eaten baked or roasted, prepared as a soup, and used for making a fermented drink, maca chicha.
Safety:

LIKELY SAFE ...when maca is consumed in food amounts (9926).
POSSIBLY SAFE ...when used orally and appropriately, short term. Maca appears to be safe in doses up to 3 grams daily for 12 weeks (10218).
PREGNANCY AND LACTATION: There is insufficient reliable information available about the safety of maca in medicinal amounts during pregnancy and lactation; avoid using.
Effectiveness:

POSSIBLY EFFECTIVE
Sexual desire. Taking maca orally 1.5 to 3 grams per day seems to increase subjective feelings of sexual desire in healthy men (9928).
There is insufficient reliable information available about the effectiveness of maca for its other uses.

Mechanism of Action:
The applicable part of maca is the root. Dried maca root contains 59% carbohydrates; 10.2% protein; 8.5% fiber; and 2.2% lipids including linolenic, palmitic, and oleic acids. It contains sterols such as campesterol, stigmasterol, and beta-sitosterol. It also contains significant amounts of minerals including iron, calcium, and copper (9929). Two polyunsaturated fatty acids, macaene and macamide, are used as marker compounds for maca (9926). Lipid extracts of macaene and macamide seem to increase sexual activity and correct erectile dysfunction in experimental animals. The mechanism for this activity is unknown (10218). Maca does not appear to significantly affect serum concentrations of reproductive hormones including testosterone, estradiol, and 17-hydroxyprogesterone in healthy men (10219).
Maca also contains glucosinolates, which might have cancer-protecting properties and central nervous system effects (9927,9929).

Edited by NoopMed, 05 March 2013 - 10:34 PM.

[jjtitus]

Thanks for the response. Your experimentation with Lion's Mane sounds remarkably similar to my own. As far as the subjective feelings of cloudiness, etc. I also encountered this, and it's similar to what I experience while ON larger doses of Noopept, but I found that what I did study and focus on learning actually stuck better in my long term recall the next day. Both Noopept and Lion's Mane are purported to work through upregulation of BDNF (brain-derived neurotrophic factor) and NGF (nerve growth factor). Upregulation of these hormones should increase dendrite differentiation and nerve axon growth, which are important to learning and cognitive function, but I hypothesize based on my experience with each that the extrinsic upregulation of these hormones may actually result in somewhat disordered mental performance in the setting of active/acute usage, while providing benefit later on (the next day, etc). Obviously no evidence for any of that, but that's how I explain my subjective experience of it.

Hmmm, I suppose that is possible, and I haven't completely written it off (aka thrown it in the trash) but my first impressions are that the decrease in mental clarity and constant brain fog inhibit learning so much that the net effect is still negative, even if there are some BDNF/NGF boosting properties. My Lion's Mane experiment ended Sunday (3/3/13) and my mental performance has been steadily increasing back to where it was at the beginning of the experiment. It actually feels like I'm a bit sharper, but I think that's just because it's been 2 months since I've felt at the top of my game. I'll let you know if I notice any better recall or memory from those 2 months once everything levels out.

Maca sounds interesting, a boost in energy is always welcomed! I find it amusing that Nat Med cites its strongest evidence in its ability to "Enhance Sexual Desire." I read the study, and it apparently does this without alteration in most of the measures correlated to depression and leaves testosterone unaffected. My girlfriend might appreciate this after a long day of studying...

Maca has been a great addition actually. I went into the experiment thinking there wouldn't be any difference, after all it's just a powder made from a starchy root... but the results, for me at least, were quite noticeable (not placebo). I take it in the morning on an empty stomach before my morning coffee, and honestly the kick is enough (along with the B vitamins and piracetam) that I probably don't even need the coffee most days (I enjoy coffee, so I'll probably keep both regardless). As for libido, I'd have to say that has increased too, which may be bad or good depending on your situation... for you, it sounds like a good thing, haha.

[bobz1lla]

2. Idebenone appears to be a very potent antioxidant, helping brain & heart energy levels and cleaning out potential toxic free radicals in neuronal tissue such as hydroxyl & superoxide free radicals that can linger in the brain & spine & heart tissue when blood flow to these regions is sub-optimal, causing damage to neuronal/ organelle structures like components of the lipid (fatty) cell membranes, as well as the lipid membranes surrounding the various organelles (“little organs”), such as mitochondria and microsomes, inside these cells. Unhealthy cell oxidation damage reduces ATP energy generation by the electron transport chain. Brain and spinal cord cells are especially prone to such oxidative / metabolic waist damage, and without strong antioxidant support, cells may be irreparably damaged or even destroyed. Studies have shown that under the same cellular low oxygen conditions that cause Co Q10 to act as a pro-oxidant producer of damaging free radicals, Idebenone prevents the free radical damage and maintains relatively normal cell ATP levels. In short, while Idebenone can effectively substitute for Co Q10′s positive and life essential functions, it doesn’t have Co Q10′s free radical producing and energy crashing “dark side” which occurs under hypoxic (low oxygen) conditions.

Aging -- a form of long term 'oxidation' of the brain & body -- has been shown to degrade mitochondrial DNA, for example, Iron plays a positive and negative role in the brain. Iron is absolutely essential for life, it plays a central role in ATP generation in the electron transport chain. Yet iron can also be a powerful initiator of free radical production and cell structural damage, especially under low brain oxygen & blood flow conditions that can occur during chronic stress, fatigue, insomnia and in people with sedentary life styles. Idebenone has been shown to prevent iron ions from their risk of wastefully and toxically diverting oxygen to produce free radicals inside the mitochondria, instead of ATP energy.

Idebenone has been shown to enhance seratonin production, even under far less than optimal conditions, as e.g. with a very low tryptophan diet, or in patients with cerebrovascular dementia.

Idebenone appears to be synergistic with cholinergic substances and has enhanced cholinergic nerve function and consequent learning ability even under hypoxic conditions, or when an anti-cholinergic drug (Scopolamine) was administered. Idebenone has increased cellular catecholamine ( dopamine, adrenalin and noradrenalin) by enhancing cellular uptake of the precursor amino acid, tyrosine.

Idebenone may enhance long term potentiation in hippocampal nerve cells, a key part of memory formation and consolidation. Idebenone has restored glucose (brain fuel) utilization and ATP production in ischemic (poor blood flow) rat-brain.

Idebenone has been shown to enhance general cerebral metabolism, lessen the damage from strokes, and has been used to treat Alzheimer’s and other dementias. Like piracetam, Idebenone has been shown to promote information transfer across the corpus callosum, the membrane separating the right and left brain hemispheres.


Idebenone has shown dramatic protective effects against glutamate toxicity. Glutamic acid and aspartic acid are the two chief excitatory amino acid neurotransmitters in the human brain. Without them we would be “mental vegetables.” Yet under certain conditions, e.g. stroke or traumatic brain injury- excessive amounts of excitatory amino acids accumulate in the fluid surrounding brain cells, causing damage and even death to nerve and glial cells through free radical mechanisms. Excitatory amino acid toxicity -- e.g. from MSG in food -- is at least partly responsible for the neurotoxicity of the recreational drug “Ecstasy or MDMA.” Studies over the past 30 years have also shown that excessive dietary intake of excitatory amino acids may also damage brain structure/ function, especially in children or excitatory amino acid sensitive adults -- e.g. those of us sensitive to MSG in food and the artificial sweetener aspartame (Nutrasweet). Also many processed foods (e.g. canned soups, dry roasted spiced peanuts, beef/ chicken bouillon, canned tuna) contain “hydrolized vegetable protein, yeast extract, soy protein isolate” and similar ingredients that are mostly excitatory amino acids.

In studies with various types of nerve cell, as well as oligodendroglial cells (which make up the protective myelin sheaths surrounding many nerves, the so-called “white matter” of the brain). Idebenone has shown significant protective effects against glutamate toxicity.

Don't want to rain on your Idebenone parade, but quick tolerance build up has been reported by people . It might be better to take it occasionally after the first couple weeks. The energy effects Ide has on body mitochrondria seem to last well after the initial dose.(I believe rat studies showed energy improvements 4-8 weeks after dosage stopped)

I've been looking at alternatives in PKK, CoQ10, and MitoQ. My Aunt has used Idebenone in paper cuts and skin scrapes. She would apply topically mixed with sporin and swears it heals even faster.

Edited by bobz1lla, 07 March 2013 - 05:49 AM.

[bobz1lla]

4. Centrophenoxine -- Centrophenoxine is one of the original anti-aging, neuroenergizing drugs, FDA approved as Lucidril in the 1960s. Centrophenoxine is a compound of dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) which is part of the choline / betaine cycle -- natural to human & animal cells, and parachlorophenoxyacetate (pCPA). Dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) is a natural food component, found especially in fish, and is also a natural metabolite of the human body. Centrophenoxine’s other half, pCPA, is a synthetic compound similar to a variety of plant hormones called “auxins has long being known to be extremely effective at reducing lipofuscin levels. Lipofuscin describes the potassium build up in the brain, heart, lung and skin cells. This biochemical clutter accumulates over a lifetime, sometimes reaching 30% of the cell volume in aged animals.

The more lipofuscin a cell accumulates, the less functional it becomes, and once a critical threshold has been reached the cell may die. Both human and animal studies have shown that low lipofuscin levels correlate with healthy cellular function, while high lipofuscin accompanies poor cellular health.

High lipofuscin levels were reduced by centrophenoxine, also had their memory and learning abilities restored to a level similar to healthy young animals, while untreated high lipofuscin control animals did not.

By adding a methyl group (CH3) to DMAE, choline (also called trimethylaminoethanol) is formed. The choline thus formed may then be used to make other valuable biochemicals, such as the major neurotransmitter acetylcholine, or the essential membrane constituents phosphatidylcholine and sphingomyelin. Centrophenoxine, which is more than just DMAE, also has a general activating effect on brain function. Centrophenoxine enhances neuronal glucose (the chief brain fuel) and oxygen uptake, while increasing carbon dioxide production, all signs of increased brain ATP production. Centrophenoxine also increases neuronal RNA and protein production. RNA (derived from DNA in the cell nucleus) “instructs” neurons how to form proteins which help encode memory, as well as repair cell damage. Yet brain RNA and protein production normally drop with age, and especially when large lipofuscin deposits form around the cell nucleus, one of the main sites where lipofuscin accumulates in old age. Centrophenoxine reverses this age-related drop. Centrophenoxine has been shown to increase repair of the synapses that connect nerve cells to each other- while untreated aging synapses tend to deteriorate in number, structure and function. Thus, because of the unique plant auxin like substance pCPA that is combined with DMAE to make centrophenoxine, centrophenoxine may be considered the ultimate “DMAE plus.”

Centrophenoxine is a powerful enhancer of brain and peripheral nervous system acetylcholine levels, and, as discussed elsewhere in this thread, too much acetylcholine can cause problems i.e. headaches, muscle tension, insomnia and hyper excitability, I am planning to discontinue use of CDP-Choline and take Choline Bitrate only every 3 days as needed.

So far for me, Centrophenxine seems more powerful than the CDP - Choline in terms of brain energy boost without mania, stronger visual clarity *& stim, and memory.
Also, it's cholinergic effect may make Centrophenoxine more synergistic with Piracetam and the other racetams.

After my two to three week trial of adding Centrophenoxine modulating dosage as needed-- 2X500mg AM/earlyPM -- my plan is to start a trial of Piracetam with the Centrophenoxine and cutting back to 250mg / day of Picamilon (GABA) and no CDC-Choline unless I have anticholenergic symptoms.

Centro and it's DMAE makeup give me pause. Not sure if anyone has brought this up yet:

DMAE may increase acetylcholine levels, but it inhibits choline transport and metabolism into Phosphocholine, Phosphatidylcholine, and Sphingomyelin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/16636297

"DMAE can be bad because it raises betaines and choline by inhibiting phospholipid synthesis, temprorarily slowing down things like myelinogenisis (which is the making of "insulation" around the "wires" of your nerves). Overtime this causes problems, but there would be no immediate problems... only benefits."

The substance is harmless as long as you get enough natural Choline in your diet.(ex: DMAE is in fish) DMAE also limits phospholipid synthesis, so I don't think CDP or GPC would suffice, you need a natural choline source to offset bad effects. So maybe taking some lechithin or eggs would probably ward off any ill effects. Thread for more info:
http://www.longecity...e-it-sparingly/

[PTShapeShifter]

Hi all, has anyone either researched or tested two newly available racetam-like compound, supposedly much stronger than piracetam, called sunifram and uniform, both said to acts as a positive allosteric modulator of AMPA receptors -- see PubMed research abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18954993

According to research, sunifram acts on the receptors for glutamate is an important neurotransmitter that plays a key role in long-term potentiation and is important for learning and memory.

NoopMed, can you access the full article from the abstract listed in PubMed?

I may order some, but other's experience or further research insights may sway me, one way or another...?

Gratitudes in advance for any of your insight & comments left here.

PTShapeShifter