312 replies to this topic

[nuc]

Noopmed, have you tried coluracetam yet?

Edited by nuc, 01 June 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[MasterHerb]

Would 800mg of Piracetam and 1200mg of Lechitin 2x daily be a good starting dose? How much picamilon do you take and how many times daily?

Edited by MasterHerb, 05 June 2013 - 12:25 AM.

[Sholrak]

I'm afraid you will always be able to benefit from cannabis while on noots, but you will never be able to benefit from noots if you continue taking cannabis. Take my word on this one, you are wasting your money on noots as long as you keep using cannabis.

I agree. Doesn't mean it makes them not work, but with time, you'll realize that all nootropics have a sinergy with cannabis (as mostly all hard and not hard drugs) and it will let you gain the benefits, but with time all the benefits will get "encapsuled" in a limit that is the cannabis. I haven't tried any nootropics without being in pot, and that will change for a time, I'm sure the will be more benefitial and in some time I could start less frequently to smoke. Realize, cannabis stays in the organism 14 DAYS. That's a huge amount of time, probably it's mechanism is unique.

Always had the sensation that marijuana is an edge drug and literally it carries you to other world, emotional, sensorial, of thinking... But sometimes is needed a stop. If you smoke cannabis every day, no matter what you take to counter that, you'll be high and missing things in life every day.



Anyone has done DMT here? I'm curious in trying this some day, when I feel I'm ready, to see if it can bring memories from the deep of my mind lost much much time ago, and others that never remembered and I don't know. Can have nootropic effect or not?

It's true that if you smoke cannabis all day, every day you will experience significant inhibition of learning and cognitive performance-- along with risk of mood disorder and serious amotivation. I would never recommend high dose, daily, diurnal usage outside the serious, medically therapeutic settings such as the role of cannabis as a chemotherapy antiemetic or HIV orexogenic. Nootropic drug use, in my experience, has never been intended to counter adverse effects of cannabis. Rather, I have found that very conservative cannabis use can augment peak potential and provide sustained efficacy for the other elements of my stack. The only things that encapsulate Nootropic "potential", what I'm assuming you mean as drug efficacy, are the pharmacologic properties of the particular nootropic drug in question and the neurologic potential of the individual in using them.

Secondly, the metabolism and receptor interactivity of THC is variable and progressively adaptive. Metabolism and elimination from the body can vary from about 2-60 days depending on factors like body fat percentage, liver and kidney function, and diet. The mechanism cannabinoid receptor activity and the activation of CB/CB2 receptors in response to blood THC concentration is somewhat unique and still being explored, but the pharmacoketic properties and mode of elimination are not a mystery. You can read about them extensively on Wiki and PubMed.

Seems that we're drifting from the original intent of this thread a bit... but DMT is a psychedelic hallucinogen, not a nootropic. I've never tried it, nor do I plan to. There's a realm of thought concerning philosophies of cognitive experience and the enhancement of the "the human experience" involving psychedelics, but that is beyond the scope of my intents in this thread. While the neuropharmacologic properties of psychedelics are interesting to discuss, I'd rather stick to nootropics here.

Please try to offer constructive discussion, ideally of the clinical or biomedical, evidenced-based science variety. I get the feeling this thread may be starting to slip into a tone that I'm no longer interested in being a part of. Bound to happen eventually, I suppose.

Sorry for that, you're right. My knowledge of neurosciences is limited and although I'm a future med project, sometimes is difficult to follow things here.



I was wondering, which supps would help with quitting cannabis after 5+ years of use almost daily? I mean, not only withdrawal, or post withdrawal, or reversing symptoms. What could I use to susbtitute it in the future? I read Rhodiola was good, for its action in dopamine and serotonin, and in endorphins and enkephalins. Bacopa, also, looked like something touching at least a little the opioid system. Also come to my mind, Fish Oil, magnesium, B complex, methylcobalamine,... What else?

[nuc]

Doses were taken sublingualy..

(AM)
5mg noopept
1g cdp choline
600mg oxiracetam
fish oil
maybe some alcar

then

(PM)
5mg noopept
300-600 mg oxiracetam
60mg coluracetam

and again 5-6 hours later which gives you 3 stacks per day, by the end of the day you should feel tired if you havent fallen asleep by 9pm assuming you wake up at 6:30am.

But... since i'm pretty certain you will not get your hands on any coluracetam because you'd have to go straight to the manufacturers and debated in many threads no one likes taking risks so i'm pretty certain neither will you.

Best thing in this case is to play around with your source of choline. I can't give you exact figures as i'm not medical expert like but i know one thing for sure and it's that stack will even make u stop smoking.

You know how i know? Cause if u do you will get a big fucking headache, wether it's weed or not.

Edited by nuc, 05 June 2013 - 08:05 PM.

[jjtitus]

Update on my Experiment/Experience with Centrophenoxine:

Week 1 - 250mg dose, 2x daily
Week 2 - 500mg dose, 2x daily
Week 3 - 1.5g dose, morning

My initial thoughts were that centrophenoxine tastes tangy, a little bitter with an unpleasant aftertaste. Unfortunately, it's not like piracetam, where the taste seems to mellow out and I honestly hardly notice the "bad sugar" taste anymore. Centrophenoxine still tastes terrible.

Mental clarity is good, besides the mild headache after the first dose... headache subsided after coffee/L-theanine but still some pressure remained, however, by lunch the headache was gone. I only experienced this the first day, thereafter I haven't had any headaches or pressure.

I didn't notice any really significant benefits with centrophenoxine. Possibly a slight improvement in mood, more thoughtfulness and drive... but these effects were mild and it's hard to tell whether there was an actual change or part of the natural fluctuations in mood. I just took a 1.5g dose today (after approx 1 month off) and I haven't noticed a difference from my standard stack. I'll probably experiment some more in the future, but in my opinion I don't think centrophenoxine has had significant benefit to me personally.


Current Stack:

- AM -
Coffee
L-Theanine (200mg, if needed)
Maca (1Tbsp)

Forskolin (125mg std 20%, 25mg dose)
Quercetin (800mg w/ 165mg bromelain)
L-Phenylalanine (500mg)

B-Complex (Jarrow B-right)
Neuro Optimizer (Jarrow, half dosage)
Piracetam (1.5g)

- PM -
Alpha GPC (300mg, if needed)
Piracetam (1.5g)

*I've added CILTEP to my stack and like it so far, although the Quercetin+Bromelain seems to cause runny nose/sinus drainage... which may or may not be a good thing, we'll see.


Final Thoughts on Lion's Mane:

The mental dullness I experienced while taking Lion's Mane (LM) reversed after discontinuing the experiment. If I remember right, there was some discussion about the possibility of improved memory following a LM cycle, but I haven't noticed any differences. LM will be shelved indefinitely for the time being.


Future Experiments/Projects:

I have some Pramiracetam that I'm going to try out in the next couple weeks. NoopMed has also peaked my interest in Picamilon, might have to pick some of that up too!

Edited by jjtitus, 06 June 2013 - 12:10 PM.

[mandaryn]

Having used marijuana daily for a 10 year period of my life, and having discussed this topic with many friends who did the same, I have to say; I don't honestly believe there are withdrawal symptoms, even from a sudden cessation. During the period I smoked that way (once every night without fail) I attended college, got two degrees, maintained a 4.0, and worked full-time. The notion that pot makes you stupid, slow, or especially forgetful is a gross oversimplification. Studies fail to address the drastic difference in cognitive performance of a daily user, and the recreational user. For myself, I am naturally energetic, and always maintained mental focus, stoned or not. Pot was a way to slow my thoughts and, oddly, I found it gave me a different point of view, or angle of observation, about the events of my day. Cannabinoids and the receptor systems they affect, contrary to the assertion of the scientific community,are NOT fully understood. To venerate any study that does not specifically indicate usage patterns and frequencies is no better than reading online anecdotal experiences and treating them as universally representative of everyone's experience. If you don't like the way you perform under its influence, stop using it, reduce your use, or attempt to use a reduced amount, but at the same time each day, after you will be expected to perform mentally or physically. If using it is just not an option anymore, I don't think you'll find you suffer any withdrawal symptoms, because THC and its associated chemicals do not stimulate the reward pathways that opiates, amphetamines, cocaine, etc do. It's the stimulation of those pathways, and the resulting release of monoamine transmitters that cause the changes in your brain that will make you susceptible to withdrawal. Good luck.

[agedman]

Noopmed-

Are you going for an AOA (alpha omega alpha)?
Do you have a theory on why piracetam works for some but not others?
Does the EPA/DHA ratio matter?

[FocusPocus]

Oh i accidentaly might have left noopmed a PM saying he's awesome!

Is he having his main exam this month? Lets all wish him good luck then!

Hope everything works out awesome man!

[noos]

The final addition I've made is fairly straightforward: Claritin(loratadine), the OTC non-drowsy antihistamine. What most people forget about the antihistamines is that they're also antimuscarinic/anticholinergic. The reason "non-drowsy" antihistamines were made was because the original antihistamines (like benadryl) cross the blood brain barrier and inhibit neuronal histamine and acetylcholine receptors, which are involved in alertness, cognition, and memory. This lead to the side effect of drowsiness, etc, but also took care of allergies systemically. The invention of second generation antihistamines like Claritin prevented the cognitive side effects because the molecule cannot pass the blood brain barrier, or at least, only does so very, very minimally. The constant side effect that I periodically run into with nooptropics that enhance cholinergic signalling (all the choline precursors, ginkgo, and piracetam) was increased systemic cholinergic activity. Occasional mild bronchospasm, GI upset, sweating, muscle twitches, excess saliva, watery eyes, bradycardia, etc. I never experienced anything clinically concerning, but these are definitely annoying side effects. When I added in Armodafinil (a histamine agonist, among other things), I began noticing minor allergies and rashes-- as I've mentioned before I tend to be prone to atopy. The solution to both of these problems is the addition of a non-blood-brain-barrier soluble H1/M1,3 antagonist, like Claritin. Voila. No more systemic side effects and no noticeable reduction in CNS efficacy, the nootropic stack is now isolated to activity within the blood brain barrier... in theory. So far this has been working very well for me.

This is interesting. Will loratadine mask the symptoms of modafinil/armodafinil adverse effects or actually prevent problems like reported here by salamandyr?
http://www.longecity...post__p__598188

[NoopMed]

Hello All,

I've been missing lately, sorry for my absence. I took the boards, and as hoped, I crushed them!

It's a major med school faux pas to post or share your documented board score with your peers, so I will not share the exact score number. However, I will say that it fell within the range of my previous diagnostic scores (possibly higher, considering most people consider those scores dramatically inflated), and the score will not be a limiting factor for me when choosing a location or specialty for residency. Basically, a huge win!

Since my last posting, I've now transitioned to clinical rotations, and have been met with new and exciting modes of intellectual challenge. Gone are the days of endless studying and multiple choice test taking-- Years 1 & 2 are OVER. Rote memory and static reasoning are no longer the measure of medical school prowess. As a 3rd and 4th year medical student my new responsibilities are centered around direct patient care-- requiring dynamic, creative reasoning, superb communication, adherence to delicate and highly complicated social matrices and hierarchies, and perhaps most importantly-- resilient emotional status and limitless physical endurance.

The previous stacks I have outlined were very successful for book work and academic success in research and the basic sciences that makeup the foundation of medicine. I am satisfied with them for those purposes. Moving forward, I will be working on new combinations that are better attuned to my new goals. My time will be very limited, as usual, but I will continue to keep this forum up to date as best I can with any new ideas for or developments in my daily stack.

Thanks for your support, and take care!

[lostfalco]

Hello All,

I've been missing lately, sorry for my absence. I took the boards, and as hoped, I crushed them! :-D

It's a major med school faux pas to post or share your documented board score with your peers, so I will not share the exact score number. However, I will say that it fell within the range of my previous diagnostic scores (possibly higher, considering most people consider those scores dramatically inflated), and the score will not be a limiting factor for me when choosing a location or specialty for residency. Basically, a huge win! :cool:

Since my last posting, I've now transitioned to clinical rotations, and have been met with new and exciting modes of intellectual challenge. Gone are the days of endless studying and multiple choice test taking-- Years 1 & 2 are OVER. Rote memory and static reasoning are no longer the measure of medical school prowess. As a 3rd and 4th year medical student my new responsibilities are centered around direct patient care-- requiring dynamic, creative reasoning, superb communication, adherence to delicate and highly complicated social matrices and hierarchies, and perhaps most importantly-- resilient emotional status and limitless physical endurance.

The previous stacks I have outlined were very successful for book work and academic success in research and the basic sciences that makeup the foundation of medicine. I am satisfied with them for those purposes. Moving forward, I will be working on new combinations that are better attuned to my new goals. My time will be very limited, as usual, but I will continue to keep this forum up to date as best I can with any new ideas for or developments in my daily stack.

Thanks for your support, and take care!

Congrats Noop! You're a badass. Thanks for sharing all your time and info with us. We need as many doctors like you as we can get.

[bluentropy]

Thanks, NoopMed, for your incredible chronicle of your instructive cognitive journeys!

(1) If you were to repeat your second year, what stack would you have used knowing all that you know now and having had all of these experiences?

(2) Did you at any point consider using bacopa, rhodiola or l-carnitine?

(3) Please do provide updates on what stacks you find helpful for your new array of tasks!

[bluentropy]

1st Full Practice USMLE Step One Exam Complete!
(4 blocks from paid NBME practice database, plus 3 additional blocks of UWorld QBank to simulate full 322 question, 8 hour length.)

Breakfast:
-Oatmeal with Blueberries and 2g Lecethin
-1 Scoop Spark (http://www.advocare....tive/A2094.aspx)
~60mg additional caffeine anhydrous
-Small glass of Grapefruit juice (p450 inhibitor, slows caffeine metabolism, hopefully counters some of modafinil p450 induction)
-2.4g Piracetam
-60mg Ginkgo biloba
-200mg Modafinil

-1 hour of shower and prep... (feeling really jacked... probably too much caffeine for the grapefruit juice.)

**Exam Blocks 1-3** (1 block of UWorld and first 2 blocks of USMLE-- 3 hours)

Break 1 (10 minutes total for food/drink/maintenance dose/bio-break):
-1 Scoop Spark
-1.2g Piracetam
-30mg Ginkgo biloba
-Zone brand Protein Bar 40/30/30% carbs/protein/fat
-Handful of Almonds

**Blocks 4&5** (Both from NBME exam)

Break 2 (15 minutes)
-1 Scoop Spark
-800mg Piracetam
-30mg Ginkgo
-1 Double-stack peanut butter and jelly sandwiche (3 pieces of bread, Jif creamy, and raspberry preserves...mmm)

**Blocks 6&7** (Both from UWorld. Felt like it was losing focus a lot here, but still scored higher than my first UWorld. Definitely getting tired/frustrated/bored.)

DONE!

I've noticed you did not include loratidine, Forskolin, Quercetin, fish oil or L-Phenylalanine here... Why?

Edited by bluentropy, 12 July 2013 - 04:20 AM.

[deh707]

[delete]

Edited by deh707, 01 August 2013 - 03:19 PM.

[stablemind]

1st Full Practice USMLE Step One Exam Complete!
(4 blocks from paid NBME practice database, plus 3 additional blocks of UWorld QBank to simulate full 322 question, 8 hour length.)

Breakfast:
-Oatmeal with Blueberries and 2g Lecethin
-1 Scoop Spark (http://www.advocare....tive/A2094.aspx)
~60mg additional caffeine anhydrous
-Small glass of Grapefruit juice (p450 inhibitor, slows caffeine metabolism, hopefully counters some of modafinil p450 induction)
-2.4g Piracetam
-60mg Ginkgo biloba
-200mg Modafinil

-1 hour of shower and prep... (feeling really jacked... probably too much caffeine for the grapefruit juice.)

**Exam Blocks 1-3** (1 block of UWorld and first 2 blocks of USMLE-- 3 hours)

Break 1 (10 minutes total for food/drink/maintenance dose/bio-break):
-1 Scoop Spark
-1.2g Piracetam
-30mg Ginkgo biloba
-Zone brand Protein Bar 40/30/30% carbs/protein/fat
-Handful of Almonds

**Blocks 4&5** (Both from NBME exam)

Break 2 (15 minutes)
-1 Scoop Spark
-800mg Piracetam
-30mg Ginkgo
-1 Double-stack peanut butter and jelly sandwiche (3 pieces of bread, Jif creamy, and raspberry preserves...mmm)

**Blocks 6&7** (Both from UWorld. Felt like it was losing focus a lot here, but still scored higher than my first UWorld. Definitely getting tired/frustrated/bored.)

DONE!

I've noticed you did not include loratidine, Forskolin, Quercetin, fish oil or L-Phenylalanine here... Why?

He discontinued the CILTEP stack after using it for a short time. He said it started to cause depression and a bunch of other side effects. He also did mention that it helped improve his class ranking from top 5% to top 1%.

[noos]

Why CILTEP can cause depression?

[NoopMed]

regarding your question about CILTEP:


I used CILTEP for a short period of time near the end of my academic year. I did not use it long enough for it to effect my class rank, as I believe I only took one graded exam while using that as part of my stack. I was using this combo most significantly during the early part of my board preparation, but I abandoned CILTEP and stuck with armodafinil. The reason? There appears to be some overlapping pharmacology between the two. Specifically, Armodafinil/Modainil and CILTEP both seem to work on long term potentiation in the hypothalamus, and purportedly the regulation of circadian rhythm, alertness/awakeness. Using both CILTEP and armodafinil at once seemed excessive both from a biochemical standpoint and from a subjective user standpoint. I often felt very burnt out at the end of the day. I still definitely think CILTEP has potential, and I may try it in the future as a "soft," non-prescription alternative to modafinil, but at the moment I've got other plans.

I don't see any reason why it would cause depression. If I suggested that before, that wasn't my intention. It just left me a feeling pretty drained and irritable at the end of the day when combined with all the other stuff I was trying back at the start of boards studying.

Edited by NoopMed, 03 August 2013 - 01:27 PM.

[NoopMed]

Thanks, NoopMed, for your incredible chronicle of your instructive cognitive journeys!

(1) If you were to repeat your second year, what stack would you have used knowing all that you know now and having had all of these experiences?

(2) Did you at any point consider using bacopa, rhodiola or l-carnitine?

(3) Please do provide updates on what stacks you find helpful for your new array of tasks!

1.) If I were to repeat second year, I would first start off with the basic stack for 2-3 weeks and see how things went:
@ Breakfast, Lunch, and late afternoon if you plan to study late:
60mg Ginkgo
800-1200mg Piracetam
500mg Choline bitartrate

1200mg Fish Oil at breakfast with high EPA/DHA content
2-4 Cups of Coffee throughout the day


From there, I would fine tune things as fits best for you. If you feel unfocused, consider trying slightly more Piracetam, or perhaps even better substituting some piracetam for aniracetam (more AMPA channel specific) with a build that has something like 800mg Piracetam and 800mg Aniracetam. If you get headaches, more choline. OR, try Alpha GPC, DMAE, or just more Choline bitartrate. If you feel too tired, perhaps increasing Ginkgo to 120mg, or alternatively increasing coffee intake. The best thing you can do is try to learn as much as you can about what each of these drugs is doing, so you can figure out what is best to adjust based on your own personal experience. Information in this thread, wiki, on examine.com, or even on reddit can be very useful for this. The stuff I suggest here should be used only as a starting point since people react differently to these supplements-- the racetams in particular.

2.) I've tried bacopa, acetyl-L-carnitine, and rhodiola-- all quite extensively.
Bacopa was great, but I experienced substantial GI discomfort while using it. Turns out, this is the most commonly reported side effect in all the studies of this herb. Also, Bacopa has significant anxiolytic properties and takes AT LEAST 4 weeks of steady use to note memory effects. So you should be aware that the first month might actually result in REDUCED cognitive performance in the medical school setting. This is especially true when using some of the brands that fill their capsules with 500mg of bacopa extract. This dose is too high to start with in my opinion, and the herb with exhibit its anxiolytic properties more than anything else. If you try it, see how 150-200mg twice a day goes for you, and give it at least a month before you judge it. If you are the unfortunate subject of GI side effects they will be obvious within about 4 days, and they won't be subtle-- diarrhea, cramps, bad times in general.

Rhodiola is very nice. I used this for a few months during first year alongside Ginkgo biloba. I like it. It provides quite a bit of energy, and the dopamine stabilizing properties actually seem to attenuate the jittery feeling of caffeine, etc. Alongside many racetams and the rest of my current stack, it's a little much for me though. I tend to feel a little manic. I did try some for about a week earlier this month, and I haven't entirely eliminated it from my arsenal. It may make a return.

I still use acetyl-L-carnitine in the manner I've discussed in previous posts. I feel like when I take it at high dose for a few days, it resensitizes me to Ginkgo + Piracetam. If I take it chronically, I feel like it actually negatively effects me short term memory and rote recall. I tend to take it on the weekends, at 1000-1500mg spread over the day in 2-3 doses. Some very interesting articles have been published recently that propose a new mechanism for ALCAR in cortical glutamate neurons. It appears to upregulate mGLU2 receptors, which basically appear to provide negative feedback to glutamatergic neurons, induce axon formation and repair, and essentially make these neurons "healthy" and less active. The use of ALCAR in the attenuation of neuropathic pain and depression is proposed, which makes sense given this proposed mechanism. In our case, I have some theories on how this could have a nootropic effect... Piracetam and Aniracetam, and a few of the others act allosterically to increase firing frequency of these neurons, and as a result hopefully increase the rate and probability of long term potentiation and arborization... aka learning. ALCAR seems to slow down and perhaps fine-tune this process. I'd like to think it's basically refining the process learning at an axonal level, and while probably not directly contributing to the anabolism of neurons, works to aid in orderly anabolism. There's no evidence to suggest these speculations yet, but it seems to have a positive benefit for me when used a significant doses periodically.

3.) Updates: See next post.

[theperfectratio]

Thanks for the update, noop.

I had a question.

i remember you mentioning about using pramiracetam and noopept towards the last month of your exams. Why would you not advise them now? too much stimulation being distracting?

And i never read about you using Pyritinol. Lots of reviews in this site swear by it. Did you ever try Pyritinol?

Also was your exam day stack any different considering you had a long ass exam to attend?

Edited by theperfectratio, 03 August 2013 - 02:30 PM.

[NoopMed]

Current Stack:

Breakfast:
1200mg Fish Oil
200mg Phosphatidylserine
60mg Ginkgo biloba
800mg Piracetam
800mg Aniracetam
10mg Sunifiram
150mg Pramiracetam
500 mg Choline bitartrate
10mg Claritin (loratadine)
Cup of Coffee

Lunch:
200mg Phosphatidylserine
800mg Piracetam
30mg Ginkgo biloba
400mg Aniracetam
5mg Sunifiram
75mg Pramiracetam
500mg Choline bitartrate
Cup of Coffee
--------------------------------------------------------------

So a problem I was having was that I was using Piracetam at about 1400-2000mg at breakfast and lunch, Ginkgo, Fish Oil and choline bitartrate. This was great for cognition, after building over 2 hours usually. For the ramp up, I often experienced too much of an anxiolytic effect and felt slightly hazy and unfocused. This wasn't a problem when I was home studying, or in the library, etc, because I was still very productive and got good studying done. In the clinic and the hospital, this does not work. I've gotta be moving all the time. I'm working with high-strung docs all day, and I need to move through patients quickly enough to keep up with my work. Anything that slows me down moment-to-moment is unacceptable. I geared the racetam portion of my stack more specifically towards direct AMPA glutamate channel modulation, using higher potency racetams with the hope to avoid anxiolytic effects at a lower total dose and hopefully experience less cross reactivity with whatever receptor is being agonized or modulated to generate that classic relaxing/spacey/chilled-out effect. I still suspect it's involving GABA somehow because it almost feels benzodiazpinic to me, but I've been unable to find much supporting that theory. Either way, Aniracetam is something I've never really given a good trial until now, and I love it. I experience a noticeable boost in focus and energy, without any cloudiness when I swap out some of my Piracetam dose for Aniracetam. It also seems to improve my reaction time. Attending Physicians will start to issue a PIMP question and I now answer before they can even get their words out..graciously of course, haha, don't wanna seem like your cutting them off. Since adding these new racetams, I feel 10 steps ahead of the game, and it has been great. I'm not sure the Sunifiram is doing much, but I wanted to throw it in there after trying Aniracetam for a week or so because they seem to have similar specificity for AMPA receptors. Sunifiram also shows promise in glycine-site modulation of NMDA receptors which should benefit LTP. I may notice a slight additional boost with this, but it could easily be placebo. Either way, I had 2g laying around, and plenty to use, and even if it's a subtle addition it's not harming the stack. The Pramiracetam is there with the hope that I'll get the benefit of increased HUAC transporter expression noted with this racetam variant-- HUAC is the transporter that brings choline into cholinergic neurons and is the rate limiting step in acetylcholine production. I use low doses of this because I'd rather not go excess on the racetams and induce a brain fog. Not sure if it's having an effect, but this would be something likely benefiting over the long term. Again, no harm noted. Phosphatidylserine: I've returned this to the stack after reading an article that suggested 200-400mg BID would be required as a minimum for benefit. I had only tried it at 100mg in the morning previously and was disappointed both by the lack of effect and the high cost of pre-encapsulated NOW brand PS (and Jarrow brand). I got some bulk powder, which was more affordable, and ramped up the dose. The synergy with Ginkgo and Fish Oil is very promising in theory, so I'm giving it a decent shot. Things have been going great at about 400mg total (200mg BID), but this is confounded with the changes to the racetam portion of my stack, so it's hard to tell if there's a difference. At this point, I hope to see some continual increase in cognition with the PS over time, as well as with the pramiracetam over time.

In summation, this stack has met my current needs (as outlined in my previous post) very well, and I'll be running it like this for the foreseeable future. I'm considering adding Rhodiola or Vinpocetine back in... but I'm not sure I want to mess with a good thing.

[MasterHerb]

Current Stack:

Breakfast:
1200mg Fish Oil
200mg Phosphatidylserine
60mg Ginkgo biloba
800mg Piracetam
800mg Aniracetam
10mg Sunifiram
150mg Pramiracetam
500 mg Choline bitartrate
10mg Claritin (loratadine)
Cup of Coffee

Lunch:
200mg Phosphatidylserine
800mg Piracetam
30mg Ginkgo biloba
400mg Aniracetam
5mg Sunifiram
75mg Pramiracetam
500mg Choline bitartrate
Cup of Coffee
--------------------------------------------------------------

So a problem I was having was that I was using Piracetam at about 1400-2000mg at breakfast and lunch, Ginkgo, Fish Oil and choline bitartrate. This was great for cognition, after building over 2 hours usually. For the ramp up, I often experienced too much of an anxiolytic effect and felt slightly hazy and unfocused. This wasn't a problem when I was home studying, or in the library, etc, because I was still very productive and got good studying done. In the clinic and the hospital, this does not work. I've gotta be moving all the time. I'm working with high-strung docs all day, and I need to move through patients quickly enough to keep up with my work. Anything that slows me down moment-to-moment is unacceptable. I geared the racetam portion of my stack more specifically towards direct AMPA glutamate channel modulation, using higher potency racetams with the hope to avoid anxiolytic effects at a lower total dose and hopefully experience less cross reactivity with whatever receptor is being agonized or modulated to generate that classic relaxing/spacey/chilled-out effect. I still suspect it's involving GABA somehow because it almost feels benzodiazpinic to me, but I've been unable to find much supporting that theory. Either way, Aniracetam is something I've never really given a good trial until now, and I love it. I experience a noticeable boost in focus and energy, without any cloudiness when I swap out some of my Piracetam dose for Aniracetam. It also seems to improve my reaction time. Attending Physicians will start to issue a PIMP question and I now answer before they can even get their words out..graciously of course, haha, don't wanna seem like your cutting them off. Since adding these new racetams, I feel 10 steps ahead of the game, and it has been great. I'm not sure the Sunifiram is doing much, but I wanted to throw it in there after trying Aniracetam for a week or so because they seem to have similar specificity for AMPA receptors. Sunifiram also shows promise in glycine-site modulation of NMDA receptors which should benefit LTP. I may notice a slight additional boost with this, but it could easily be placebo. Either way, I had 2g laying around, and plenty to use, and even if it's a subtle addition it's not harming the stack. The Pramiracetam is there with the hope that I'll get the benefit of increased HUAC transporter expression noted with this racetam variant-- HUAC is the transporter that brings choline into cholinergic neurons and is the rate limiting step in acetylcholine production. I use low doses of this because I'd rather not go excess on the racetams and induce a brain fog. Not sure if it's having an effect, but this would be something likely benefiting over the long term. Again, no harm noted. Phosphatidylserine: I've returned this to the stack after reading an article that suggested 200-400mg BID would be required as a minimum for benefit. I had only tried it at 100mg in the morning previously and was disappointed both by the lack of effect and the high cost of pre-encapsulated NOW brand PS (and Jarrow brand). I got some bulk powder, which was more affordable, and ramped up the dose. The synergy with Ginkgo and Fish Oil is very promising in theory, so I'm giving it a decent shot. Things have been going great at about 400mg total (200mg BID), but this is confounded with the changes to the racetam portion of my stack, so it's hard to tell if there's a difference. At this point, I hope to see some continual increase in cognition with the PS over time, as well as with the pramiracetam over time.

In summation, this stack has met my current needs (as outlined in my previous post) very well, and I'll be running it like this for the foreseeable future. I'm considering adding Rhodiola or Vinpocetine back in... but I'm not sure I want to mess with a good thing.

Thanks for the update!!!

[NoopMed]

Thanks for the update, noop.

I had a question. i remember you using pramiracetam and noopept towards the last month of your exams. Why would you not advise them now?

Also was your exam day stack any different considering you had a long ass exam to attend?

Yes my exam day stack was typically slightly larger doses of everything several hours before the test, with a booster dose right before starting the exam. If you troll back a ways, I'm sure it's listed there. I generally would wake up at take 2400mg of Piracetam, 500mg Choline, and 60mg of Ginkgo about 2.5 hours before the test. Then I would eat, drink coffee, chill out and look at notes. And 15 minutes before the exam I would take another 800mg Piracetam, 500mg choline bitartrate, and 60mg ginkgo... keeping coffee nearby through the test. I varied the stack from test to test to see what worked best for me, as the board exam was the ultimate priority and I wanted to have a exam day stack nailed down for that. You can find that listed in previous posts.

As I mentioned in the last post, I am using low dose Pramiracetam currently. I like it. As for Noopept, it's been a strange experience. I REALLY liked using it actually, and I used it during the last 2 weeks of board studying and for the test itself, but I had to stop. I experienced a very strange side effect that I have no explanation for. I started getting very significant nose (nares) and sinus pain and inflammation. I was NOT insuflating (snorting) the noopept, (was talking 10-20mg orally BID) but this happened EVERY time I took it for more than about 5 days. My nose would start to hurt, it would turn very red, it would swell, and basically look like a really, really bad acne outbreak, but with no focal comedones. I didn't believe it was related at all, and I still have no explanation. However, I've tried 5 separate trials of Noopept now and this has happened every single time, and it goes away when I stop using it, like clockwork. I don't usually get acne, and this was definitely something a bit more serious than your run-of-the-mill acne. I've never read about anything like this, and it was actually a bit scary and cosmetically very obnoxious! So for now I'm done with Noopept. It's possible there's some kind of contaminate in my batch (got it from Newstar), but this seems highly unlikely as well and everything else I've gotten from them has been great. I really have no explanation for this, which makes me uncomfortable and previously less inclined to share. It's simply an observation-- happens every time I try to take Noopept long term, and goes away a few days after I stop using it.

[theperfectratio]

Thanks for the share. I shall look out for them acnes!

i had edited my prev post to ask you about pyritinol.

But never mind! Thanks!

Edited by theperfectratio, 03 August 2013 - 02:48 PM.

[fenra]

Are you guys still chugging that fish-oil aid? Of course, what harm can a gram do, right! The real problem is that this forum is turning into less of a longevity effort, and more of a "I wanna be like Bradley Cooper" fantasy.

Now let me apologize, NoopMed; to me you are a positive role model. But I am wondering what you would think about an article such as this one:

http://raypeat.com/a...s/fishoil.shtml

[noos]

Thanks for your work NoopMed.
I too get tired after stimulant use, I still don't know how to fix it.

Do you take loratadine everyday? Is it safe? It is a great discovery of yours.

Maybe it helps with side effects and tiredness.

[stablemind]

Thanks for the update! Do you think the NOS effects of Pramiracetam is of any concern? It seems to be one of the less studied racetams and I'm a bit concerned over my long term use of it. I really liked Pramiracetam, it gave me incredible short term memory within hours of dosage and I was able to memorize rote info very quickly. I'm just a bit concerned about it's safety but I recall reading a study on Pram that lasted 18 months which didn't state any negative effects from the drug... so it seems safe enough to use within an 18 month period.

[MasterHerb]

Thanks for the update, noop.

I had a question. i remember you using pramiracetam and noopept towards the last month of your exams. Why would you not advise them now?

Also was your exam day stack any different considering you had a long ass exam to attend?

Yes my exam day stack was typically slightly larger doses of everything several hours before the test, with a booster dose right before starting the exam. If you troll back a ways, I'm sure it's listed there. I generally would wake up at take 2400mg of Piracetam, 500mg Choline, and 60mg of Ginkgo about 2.5 hours before the test. Then I would eat, drink coffee, chill out and look at notes. And 15 minutes before the exam I would take another 800mg Piracetam, 500mg choline bitartrate, and 60mg ginkgo... keeping coffee nearby through the test. I varied the stack from test to test to see what worked best for me, as the board exam was the ultimate priority and I wanted to have a exam day stack nailed down for that. You can find that listed in previous posts.

As I mentioned in the last post, I am using low dose Pramiracetam currently. I like it. As for Noopept, it's been a strange experience. I REALLY liked using it actually, and I used it during the last 2 weeks of board studying and for the test itself, but I had to stop. I experienced a very strange side effect that I have no explanation for. I started getting very significant nose (nares) and sinus pain and inflammation. I was NOT insuflating (snorting) the noopept, (was talking 10-20mg orally BID) but this happened EVERY time I took it for more than about 5 days. My nose would start to hurt, it would turn very red, it would swell, and basically look like a really, really bad acne outbreak, but with no focal comedones. I didn't believe it was related at all, and I still have no explanation. However, I've tried 5 separate trials of Noopept now and this has happened every single time, and it goes away when I stop using it, like clockwork. I don't usually get acne, and this was definitely something a bit more serious than your run-of-the-mill acne. I've never read about anything like this, and it was actually a bit scary and cosmetically very obnoxious! So for now I'm done with Noopept. It's possible there's some kind of contaminate in my batch (got it from Newstar), but this seems highly unlikely as well and everything else I've gotten from them has been great. I really have no explanation for this, which makes me uncomfortable and previously less inclined to share. It's simply an observation-- happens every time I try to take Noopept long term, and goes away a few days after I stop using it.

I see you are no longer using spark....any reason behind this? What are your thoughts on using a B-complex?

[fenra]

As I mentioned in the last post, I am using low dose Pramiracetam currently. I like it. As for Noopept, it's been a strange experience. I REALLY liked using it actually, and I used it during the last 2 weeks of board studying and for the test itself, but I had to stop. I experienced a very strange side effect that I have no explanation for. I started getting very significant nose (nares) and sinus pain and inflammation. I was NOT insuflating (snorting) the noopept, (was talking 10-20mg orally BID) but this happened EVERY time I took it for more than about 5 days. My nose would start to hurt, it would turn very red, it would swell, and basically look like a really, really bad acne outbreak, but with no focal comedones. I didn't believe it was related at all, and I still have no explanation. However, I've tried 5 separate trials of Noopept now and this has happened every single time, and it goes away when I stop using it, like clockwork. I don't usually get acne, and this was definitely something a bit more serious than your run-of-the-mill acne. I've never read about anything like this, and it was actually a bit scary and cosmetically very obnoxious! So for now I'm done with Noopept. It's possible there's some kind of contaminate in my batch (got it from Newstar), but this seems highly unlikely as well and everything else I've gotten from them has been great. I really have no explanation for this, which makes me uncomfortable and previously less inclined to share. It's simply an observation-- happens every time I try to take Noopept long term, and goes away a few days after I stop using it.

I got the same sinusitis-like pain, and something resembling a migraine between my eyebrows; at some point it felt like I was frowning, but I was not. Also, it felt like the front of my brain was pushing to get out.

Although not as bad, I now get this along with some pain in my temples every time I take a 15mg scoop of the stuff. However, I am also a big coffee drinker (5 cups per day), and wear contact lenses whenever I am awake.

[deh707]

Current Stack:

Breakfast:
1200mg Fish Oil
200mg Phosphatidylserine
60mg Ginkgo biloba
800mg Piracetam
800mg Aniracetam
10mg Sunifiram
150mg Pramiracetam
500 mg Choline bitartrate
10mg Claritin (loratadine)
Cup of Coffee

Lunch:
200mg Phosphatidylserine
800mg Piracetam
30mg Ginkgo biloba
400mg Aniracetam
5mg Sunifiram
75mg Pramiracetam
500mg Choline bitartrate
Cup of Coffee
--------------------------------------------------------------

So a problem I was having was that I was using Piracetam at about 1400-2000mg at breakfast and lunch, Ginkgo, Fish Oil and choline bitartrate. This was great for cognition, after building over 2 hours usually. For the ramp up, I often experienced too much of an anxiolytic effect and felt slightly hazy and unfocused. This wasn't a problem when I was home studying, or in the library, etc, because I was still very productive and got good studying done. In the clinic and the hospital, this does not work. I've gotta be moving all the time. I'm working with high-strung docs all day, and I need to move through patients quickly enough to keep up with my work. Anything that slows me down moment-to-moment is unacceptable. I geared the racetam portion of my stack more specifically towards direct AMPA glutamate channel modulation, using higher potency racetams with the hope to avoid anxiolytic effects at a lower total dose and hopefully experience less cross reactivity with whatever receptor is being agonized or modulated to generate that classic relaxing/spacey/chilled-out effect. I still suspect it's involving GABA somehow because it almost feels benzodiazpinic to me, but I've been unable to find much supporting that theory. Either way, Aniracetam is something I've never really given a good trial until now, and I love it. I experience a noticeable boost in focus and energy, without any cloudiness when I swap out some of my Piracetam dose for Aniracetam. It also seems to improve my reaction time. Attending Physicians will start to issue a PIMP question and I now answer before they can even get their words out..graciously of course, haha, don't wanna seem like your cutting them off. Since adding these new racetams, I feel 10 steps ahead of the game, and it has been great. I'm not sure the Sunifiram is doing much, but I wanted to throw it in there after trying Aniracetam for a week or so because they seem to have similar specificity for AMPA receptors. Sunifiram also shows promise in glycine-site modulation of NMDA receptors which should benefit LTP. I may notice a slight additional boost with this, but it could easily be placebo. Either way, I had 2g laying around, and plenty to use, and even if it's a subtle addition it's not harming the stack. The Pramiracetam is there with the hope that I'll get the benefit of increased HUAC transporter expression noted with this racetam variant-- HUAC is the transporter that brings choline into cholinergic neurons and is the rate limiting step in acetylcholine production. I use low doses of this because I'd rather not go excess on the racetams and induce a brain fog. Not sure if it's having an effect, but this would be something likely benefiting over the long term. Again, no harm noted. Phosphatidylserine: I've returned this to the stack after reading an article that suggested 200-400mg BID would be required as a minimum for benefit. I had only tried it at 100mg in the morning previously and was disappointed both by the lack of effect and the high cost of pre-encapsulated NOW brand PS (and Jarrow brand). I got some bulk powder, which was more affordable, and ramped up the dose. The synergy with Ginkgo and Fish Oil is very promising in theory, so I'm giving it a decent shot. Things have been going great at about 400mg total (200mg BID), but this is confounded with the changes to the racetam portion of my stack, so it's hard to tell if there's a difference. At this point, I hope to see some continual increase in cognition with the PS over time, as well as with the pramiracetam over time.

In summation, this stack has met my current needs (as outlined in my previous post) very well, and I'll be running it like this for the foreseeable future. I'm considering adding Rhodiola or Vinpocetine back in... but I'm not sure I want to mess with a good thing.

Excellent, informative post, as always.

Funny how you re-introduced Aniracetam back in your stack... because I recently brought back Aniracetam into my stack, and I now like it since lowering the dose to 300mg... and I notice you've been sticking to lower dosages of everything in general, which I'm a fan of.

Previously, the standard dose of Aniracetam (750mg) would cause severe sedation and urge me to nap right away, but what a fine nap it provided! I never intended or intend to have Aniracetam be used as a sleep aid, it seems too expensive for that, especially when L-Theanine and L-Tryptophan does the job for that matter.

I've also tried Pramiracetam in the past at the standard dose of 300mg. I did not like it at all. I experienced a severe blunting of emotions/creativity (which I often experience with Modafinil doses higher than 50mg). Maybe I shall try Pram again, but at lower doses like 150mg or 75mg.

I've tried Noopept at 10mg and 20mg. I definitely loved feeling faster and reactive than usual, but after a few days I experienced irritation, as reported by others. I hear that adding Aniracetam with Noopept can remove the irritation. I've tried this before, back when my Aniracetam doses were still at 750mg... and while the irritation stopped, the sedation effects of Aniracetam were unpleasant when I need to be alert. Now that I've found that a lower Aniracetam dose (300mg) works well for me, I may try Noopept again in the future.


All in all, I'm glad you're finding benefit in your chosen nootropics through trial and error. Finding the right ones that work can be a long, dirty path.

For now, I'm happy with this stack I've settled on:

800mg Piracetam (3x a day)
300mg Aniracetam (3x a day)
150mg Alpha-GPC (1x a day)
1200mg EPA/DHA Fishoil (3x a day)
200mg L-Theanine (3x a day)
100mg Caffeine (2x a day)

When needed: 50mg Modafinil.

I may give Ginkgo, Rhodiola, and Bacopa some tries down the road.

Edited by deh707, 04 August 2013 - 02:02 AM.

[theperfectratio]

@ deh: i dont know much about these, but isnt that too low a choline , when compared to the dose of racetams you are taking?