312 replies to this topic

[Hitchens]

Great, though I'd never consider taking Cannabis as a sleeping aid, because I've never seen it quantified as a nootropic while melatonin seems to be working quite well.
It's a sleep aid and has a small, but noticeable nootropic effect that works for me.

As for CILTEP (or cLTP) I'm planning to try it soon, but I'm still going through some literature.

I have to disagree. I've been taking Melatonin every night (50-100mg) for over a year and dont see it as much more than a placebo. I get tired like 30 seconds after I take it. My mom takes a lot of it and gets up at 5am naturally every morning. What exactly is your definition of a nootropic then anyways?

[PTShapeShifter]

The BIGGEST excitement, though is the last 10 days use of 5-8 mgs of PRL-8-53 BID. This compound is nothing short of AMAZING for improved cognitive processing speed, verbal short term memory enhancement -- unofficial personal estimate of 60% to 80% ST memory boost for me in past week and a half that feels so far to have a very positive, cumulative memory enhancement.

As for sides, I find very little if any stimulating effect even as my cognitive functions improve. I check my heart rate closely and no changes there. Also no negative impact on sleep which is so great! I look forward to final exams coming up with PRL-8-53 now added to my stack.

Studies on PRL-8-53 are from the 1970s with only one or two human trials, but so far, using their low 5 - 8 mg I am experiencing very positive results.

Anyone else started PRL-8-53 yet? Would like to hear your experience with it.


Again, so great to have your participation here, NoopMed!
PTShapeShifter

Alright, I've ordered some... Sounds too good to be true, but I'll give anything a reasonable try. Any other specifics on dosing that you've been using? ie with food or without, have you tried it on its own or always with the stack, notice any adverse effects? Sounds like some people have been reporting a flushing sensations or hot flashes... Given the small dose I'm tempted to cap it with some noopept, sunifiram, and alpha GPC for a single super pill, hahaha! Maybe even toss in some IDRA 21...

So far, the only sides I've experienced from 11 days now adding 5 to 8 mg doses ( I weight 190 lbs. for frame of reference on dose) 2 to 3 times per day of PRL-8-53 to my stack has been minor and very rare heat fluxes in my body... not quite like a flash, but an occasional thermogenic upregulation effect, so mild that they produce no sweating nor discomfort. I experience greater alertness & mental quickness without any systemic / adrenal stimulation. FOr me, PRL-8-53 works synergistically with 1200 mg Piracetam BID ( breakfast & lunch) and with low dose 15 - 20 mg Noopept once per day, twice if I'm studying rally hard for a test. Very calm, centered, able to mentally process lots of detail & synthesize it well both verbally & cognitively.

As for ADRA - 21, the little I've read up on it, there are 72 hour recommended dose periods without clear ideal dose levels and mostly monkey trials to go on... not to mention being an analog of benzos which can be addictive,yes?... I am quite cautious to conduct self research on IDRA-21 even though th memory enhancements in resus monkeys was very significant. Very difficult at this time to asses the risks, no? Your bio-science based opinion on IDRA-21would be invaluable here, NoopMed! Maybe we wait to see when better / safer IDRA-21 analogs are developed.

Here's a segment of published IDRA-21 research you might find interesting:

"IDRA-21, which does not have the peripheral side effects associated with diazoxide and cyclothiazide and unlike the latter rapidly increases synaptic potentials (Arai et al., 1996a), was the first benzothiadiazide examined in behavioral tests (Zivkovic et al., 1995). However, IDRA-21 has modest potency, with concentrations above 200 μM typically needed to enhance excitatory transmission in hippocampal slices (Arai et al., 1996a). Our efforts as well as those of others (Desos et al., 1996; Pirotte et al., 1998) have therefore been directed at finding analogs that have higher potency yet maintain effect profiles that are suitable for behavioral applications. In the present project, we systematically modified substituents at various locations around the benzothiadiazide core of IDRA-21 and measured the effects on various aspects of AMPA receptor operation. Some of the modifications resulted in compounds that have much greater potency than IDRA-21 and have effects on AMPA receptor kinetics that differ radically from those of cyclothiazide. A comprehensive description of the compounds that were synthesized and examined in this study is given elsewhere (Phillips et al., 2002), and some data have been presented in abstract form (Arai et al., 1999).

More info from where this came can be found here: http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/51611-idra-21-or-7-chloro-3-methyl-34-dihydro-2h-124-benzothiadiazine/

Let's keep this discussion on PRL-8-53 and IDRA-21 going for as long as it takes for more case studies & research to be shared here.

Thank you as always. PTShapeShifter

[NoopMed]

dang dude, Ginkgo and Rhodiola did NOTHING for me.

screw herbal supplements !!!!!!!!!!! SCREW THEM, they are useless AND full of poo!!!

LIKE, COME THE HELL ON, LETS ROCK ALL !!!

OK I WILL CONTINUE:

GENERALLY, all these "small" supplements, multivitamins, ETC etc are MAINLY USELESS.
YOU MUST, AND I WILL CONFIRM,

HAVING;

DIET,SLEEP AND EXERCISE in check, ARE what you FIRST need to CONFIRM!

Then, DO NOT TAKE THE VERY LOW DIRECTION (GOING BACK THE WAY) and choosing herbal supplements, multivitamins that would work better than a script medication .

Look, WHAT I am trying to say is, have a good diet,sleep,exercise and GET A PROPER DRUG if want drugs. (supplement).
NOW, of course that is my opinion, and I take your opinion also, but would just like for you if you may, reflect on mine.

THANK YOU.

have a wonderful night all!!!

Have you considered Lithium carbonate or Haloperidol? They might help reign in some of the unchecked Caps-Lock in your life.

[NoopMed]

As for ADRA - 21, the little I've read up on it, there are 72 hour recommended dose periods without clear ideal dose levels and mostly monkey trials to go on... not to mention being an analog of benzos which can be addictive,yes?... I am quite cautious to conduct self research on IDRA-21 even though th memory enhancements in resus monkeys was very significant. Very difficult at this time to asses the risks, no? Your bio-science based opinion on IDRA-21would be invaluable here, NoopMed! Maybe we wait to see when better / safer IDRA-21 analogs are developed.

I'll try to look deeper into this one and see what I can find out. However, I don't believe this is a benzodiazapine derivative. I've read it labeled as a benzoTHIAzadine derivative, which is something different. It is purported to have AMPAkine effects. Whether this could be addictive or not is not well studied, but drugs like Aniracetam and Sunifiram are supposed to have this effect as well.

Tianeptine, on the other hand (which has become popular as a Nootropic lately, and is available from some providers), may have more benzodiazapine-like effects, and a significant withdrawal effect that is similar to benzos or alcohol. It is likely addictive, and based on the (albeit limited) material I've read, I don't think I'd be willing to try that stuff out.

[PTShapeShifter]

Thanks, NoopMed, for the clarification & your further bio-med. investigation into IDHA-21 efficacy for us. Looking forward to your findings & opinion.

As for PLR-8-53, now on 12 days, here's a personal case report: After taking 3 doses of PLR-8-53 yesterday, breakfast, lunch & dinner ( by the way, I do notice that if I take it with Noopept I like the cognitive boost that happens within 30 minutes, however I find that I need to eat within 30 mins or so after to feel grounded) I awoke from a good deep sleep, rested yet sharp minded. In the dark of dawn, I reviewed all the details of the Brachial Plexus nerve structures, their terminal branches, tributary nerves and all of their associated muscle & sensory innovations with a relaxed ease unlike I have been able to call up since I was in college over 30 years ago.

THey say it has a cumulative effect. I will report on that in a week or two. So far, calm, focused, mentally sharp but not hyper-driven ( even with coffee on board) like with use of too many stims. You might enjoy PLR-8-53 while doing rounds with patients for the balanced effect of alertness without tunnel thinking, so that more of your intuitive nature can be available for high touch patient interactions.

[chung_pao]

Have you considered anything targeting serotonin or oxytocin for increasing empathy, humility and patience?
Zembrin, used in a version of the CILTEP-stack, has been very effective for this purpose in my experience. Probably due to its' mild SSRI-effect.
I occasionally use it when I have days where the above qualities can be of benefit.
It's simultaneously a very effective nootropic, due to its almost complete inhibition of PDE-4b.
Zembrin without forskolin also doesn't inhibit working memory the way Artichoke + Forskolin does.

I'm considering the medical profession myself, but as I see it, the continual requirement of the above qualities is a big drawback.
Work is just so much more exciting when you can be motivated and stimulated all the time, rather than empathizing with the situation and emotions of a troubled person.

What do you think?

Edited by chung_pao, 15 November 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[MizTen]

...As for PLR-8-53, now on 12 days, here's a personal case report: After taking 3 doses of PLR-8-53 yesterday, breakfast, lunch & dinner ( by the way, I do notice that if I take it with Noopept I like the cognitive boost that happens within 30 minutes, however I find that I need to eat within 30 mins or so after to feel grounded) I awoke from a good deep sleep, rested yet sharp minded. In the dark of dawn, I reviewed all the details of the Brachial Plexus nerve structures, their terminal branches, tributary nerves and all of their associated muscle & sensory innovations with a relaxed ease unlike I have been able to call up since I was in college over 30 years ago.

THey say it has a cumulative effect. I will report on that in a week or two. So far, calm, focused, mentally sharp but not hyper-driven ( even with coffee on board) like with use of too many stims. You might enjoy PLR-8-53 while doing rounds with patients for the balanced effect of alertness without tunnel thinking, so that more of your intuitive nature can be available for high touch patient interactions.

It does indeed have a cumulative effect. I have now settled on 20 mg in the morning on days when it's effect would be really helpful. It lasts all day. There hasn't been the typical stim effect for me either, nor any crash or irritability. The only problem is that part of the cumulative effect is insomnia; calm alert wakefulness, not anxious sleeplessness. But lack of sleep will quickly do bad things to one's functioning. So the question is how to use it without harm. I am not taking any other noots ATM. I think this drug has huge potential. I also agree that it seems totally fine for intensive detailed human interactions of long duration (as long as you've had enough sleep). I would be careful of combining other noots with it though.

[NoopMed]

Have you considered anything targeting serotonin or oxytocin for increasing empathy, humility and patience?
Zembrin, used in a version of the CILTEP-stack, has been very effective for this purpose in my experience. Probably due to its' mild SSRI-effect.
I occasionally use it when I have days where the above qualities can be of benefit.
It's simultaneously a very effective nootropic, due to its almost complete inhibition of PDE-4b.
Zembrin without forskolin also doesn't inhibit working memory the way Artichoke + Forskolin does.

I'm considering the medical profession myself, but as I see it, the continual requirement of the above qualities is a big drawback.
Work is just so much more exciting when you can be motivated and stimulated all the time, rather than empathizing with the situation and emotions of a troubled person.

What do you think?

Oxytocin agonism is something I've pondered out of jest, but the half life of intranasal tocin is only about 2 minutes, and I don't really want to be falling in love with my patients... haha. And while I hope they trust me, I'm not sure I want to always trust everything they tell me... (This is an interesting article btw, if you're unfamiliar with Oxytocin: http://www.cell.com/...6273(08)00327-9, and this: http://www.scientifi...or-not-to-trust) The idea is intriguing though, regarding empathy generation. MDMA has also been researched quite thoroughly as an empathogen, but the adverse effects can obviously be very dangerous and the MDMA trade is not something I'd want to be involved in to begin with.

Sceletium tortuosum (aka Kanna, aka Zembin, I believe?) is something I've actually tried before and have in my possession currently. I always enjoy serotonin agonism, however; I don't find it benefits my cognition beyond elevating my mood. In fact I think such drugs often detract from my ambition, drive, and ability to critically reason. A psychiatrist I worked under recently said that a serotonergic mind is the satieted mind-- he suggested that the serotonin saturated mind is generally happy, infinitely content, unaroused sexually, and often lazy. I've tried out 5-HTP, St. John's Wort, Lexapro, Kanna etc both experimentally and therapeutically... They were all very nice for stress management, but not for test-taking... at least in my experience.

Regardless, increasing empathy and patient rapport are not primary goals of mine at the moment as these have been areas I normally excel in. I was merely pointing out in my other comment that most stims tend to detract from my normally strong desire to work with patients and interact with people. With modafinil or adderall for example, I become far more single-minded and task oriented at the expense of being personable and willing to just take time and listen to people I work with/for.

[NoopMed]

I've now tried two days of PRL-8-53. I like it. I can't say it's anything amazing yet, but I'll definitely be giving it a try for at least another week or two. I've continued to take Noopept (because I was already on an on-week for it), Choline, and Ginkgo. I stopped Piracetam for now because I didn't want to overdo it. I definitely notice a difference in my general alertness and sense of "being in the moment." Hard to really describe the sensation... I feel very... "present." As if I'm just generally more aware of my surroundings and am perhaps consciously processing more of the present moment, with less intrusion of concerns regarding future events or things that have been bothering me. I suppose this would be an accurate sensation of reduced anxiety and increased cognition. Or a great placebo effect, as this is generally what Nootropics are supposed to do, and what I expected of PRL-8-53... Strangely, I've also found myself compelled to be something of a jokester, cracking wise and generally finding a lot more success getting a laugh out of people around me during the day.

For now I'm doing this:

Breakfast:
Coffee
10mg PRL-8-53
15mg Noopept
500mg Choline bitartrate
60mg Ginkgo biloba

Lunch:
Repeat!


I also bought some IDRA-21. I have not tried any yet. I'll hold off for at least a week before I do because I'd like to assess PRL somewhat independently of anything else new.

BTW... someone should really come up with a new name for PRL-8-53. Pacific Research Labs and a code number are not particularly inspiring...

[Godof Smallthings]

I'm considering the medical profession myself, but as I see it, the continual requirement of the above qualities is a big drawback.
Work is just so much more exciting when you can be motivated and stimulated all the time, rather than empathizing with the situation and emotions of a troubled person.

What do you think?

Many, if not most, people find, over time, that it is compassion and kindness that creates long-lasting happiness - the happiness you give is happiness you get back (yes, I know it sounds corny, but why not seriously entertain this theory for a while?).

For example, why not ask really old people what they feel the most happy about in their lives, and what they regret?

The motivated and stimulated states, as good as they feel temporarily, can not really be sustained over the long run, and are usually short term.

Try a good deed a day for a month, like you would try a nootropic. See what happens.

[NoopMed]

Try a good deed a day for a month, like you would try a nootropic. See what happens.

Or try 100 good deeds a day, and make sure you also finish all your assignments outside patient care, and don't forget to stay late to finish all the work in those charts that the residents gave you, and maybe try to sleep a little if you can... Now try a few nootropics so you can keep up with all that, and perhaps even move ahead of the game. Welcome to medical school.

[jurassic]

hey, noopmed, just a quick question

if i remember correctly some time ago u said using ALCAR gave you acne. but you are using it in your basic stack. did it stop on it's own? you have some idea how to get rid of that side effect? do you take it every day?

very excited to read more on your PRL experiment, can't believe how fast this molecule gain audience and fans

[Godof Smallthings]

Try a good deed a day for a month, like you would try a nootropic. See what happens.

Or try 100 good deeds a day, and make sure you also finish all your assignments outside patient care, and don't forget to stay late to finish all the work in those charts that the residents gave you, and maybe try to sleep a little if you can... Now try a few nootropics so you can keep up with all that, and perhaps even move ahead of the game. Welcome to medical school.

Sounds stressful, but you seem to be doing great. To be clear, the comment was more a response to chung pao than to you.

A good deed really doesn't have to be something major that you plan out or that takes a lot of time or effort to execute, it can be a very simple thing, like exchanging a few words with a person who looks lonely, like saying something genuinely encouraging to somebody, like picking up somebody's books, like stopping to help a person with directions, like giving way to somebody in traffic or offering your place in line to somebody who really seems to need it... lots of opportunities. I don't know about you, but I frequently get impulses to do nice things for others, but it is a much more rare thing that I act on them. When I do, it makes a lot of difference.

Anyways, this is your thread which I have enjoyed reading. I did not mean to take it off topic, so sorry about that.

[NoopMed]

hey, noopmed, just a quick question

if i remember correctly some time ago u said using ALCAR gave you acne. but you are using it in your basic stack. did it stop on it's own? you have some idea how to get rid of that side effect? do you take it every day?

very excited to read more on your PRL experiment, can't believe how fast this molecule gain audience and fans

The ALCAR presented that problem when I took it at 500mg TID for for a period of about 2.5 months straight. Additionally, when I take it long term I start to feel a bit mentally cloudy. ALCAR has been shown to affect presynaptic glutamate mGlu2 receptors, promoting hippocampal neurogenesis and possibly also downregulating the quantity of glutamate released from glutamate neurons in multiple locations-- something that may benefit greater "signal to noise ratio" in cognition and be protective against excitotoxicity. (Here's a recent, and very interesting article on the subject: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23670591 ).

While these are positive effects, I hypothesize that perhaps a longterm reduction in glutamatergic transmission may occur... who knows really... Either way, I conclude it's likely neuroprotective and beneficial to cognition. I find it does help me when taken for short periods of time as I described, but not when taken constantly.

[enxr]

NoopMed,

Re: PRL-8-53, can I ask where you sourced this from? Did you check for impurities, etc?

I know you've shown through this thread that you're quite well experienced with experimentation but I was wondering whether you had any concerns regarding safety as well as efficacy. For such a promising, off-patent compound, it seems strange to me that there are no further studies published, unless there were some that were left unpublished due to negative outcomes.

[gbpackers]

Noopmed: I'm not sure if you addressed this before, but why have you stopped CILTP?

[Monstercake]

Hey NoopMed, wanted to thank you for sharing all that you have over the past year. It took a while to read but I went through all of your posts in this thread. Second year medical student here, loved how you went beyond how it made you feel and talked about actual/potential mechanisms for why you felt the way you did. With all of the resources online about nootropics, you pretty much tipped the scale for me and now I'm experimenting with noops myself!

I did have a question for you though, I'm still unclear about how exactly you use noopept. Let's say you have 3 weeks till a shelf exam, are you taking noopept for the first 2 weeks, every day and then not using it for the last week because of the way it makes you feel while studying with it? Thanks for the clarification

Noopmed: I'm not sure if you addressed this before, but why have you stopped CILTP?

He talked about why he stopped here: http://www.longecity...150#entry588254

[FreeMyBrain]

Anymore updates on PRL-8-53?

[epixs]

looking into taking prl-8-53 along with piracetam stack

[gbpackers]

any updates?!

[NoopMed]

Sorry, been a hundred years since I posted! I've been pretty busy. I have about 10 minutes here, so here it goes...

PRL-8-53-- Tried for about 2 weeks. Huge boost to short term memory for the first 3-4 days. Gradual loss of this boost, and then significant DECREASE in rote recall-- symptoms of agnosia, even apraxia. Loved the stuff at first, but then quickly grew to hate it. I truly felt impaired for about week after stopping it, and I will not be going back. I was mixing it with the usual stack of Ginkgo, Piracetam, Fish Oil and Choline.

IDRA-21 -- This stuff is very interesting and kind of scary. It feels very similar to Aniracetam to me, but it never stops. I took a 15mg dose, and it seemed to last for about 3 days, as advertised. I also couldn't sleep, couldn't seem to stop working, and felt generally manic. After about a week of sleeping 2-3 hours at most per night and starting to feel very burned out during the day, I discontinued use. It is proposed that this has prolonged reduction in AMPA densensitization, and I would say based on the experience this is very plausible. I did not experience any prolonged negative side effects after it was out of my system. Maybe I'll find a place for microdosing this in the future, but I'd rather wait until more research is available regarding safety and excitotoxicity.

Magnesium Threonate-- I finally got an opportunity to use this regularly enough to adapt to the initial sleepiness it caused me after dosing. I've decided I really like the stuff. It seems to take the edge off caffeine and makes me calm, focused, and highly functional. I'd like to write more about it, but I've run out of time.

Current Stacking:

Breakfast:
1 Scoop Spark (Caffeine and multivitamin)
Ginkgo 120mg
Fish Oil 1200mg
Mg-Thr 75mg (of Mg 2+ specifically)
1400mg Piracetam

Lunch:
1 Scoop Spark (Caffeine and multivitamin)
Ginkgo 60mg
1400mg Piracetam

Keeping it simple, and have good, sustained success.
Take care!

[Jochen]

Keeping it simple, and have good, sustained success.
Take care!

I completely agree ... too many people are taking on too much and then get 'burned' out.

Personally I am starting small and am gradually taking on more of the nootropics and other optimal performance topics.

Would suggest people first to get a good understanding of what they are deficient in (like the edge effect tests), work to stabilise those deficiencies, eat well, exercise and then consider really adding nootropics to the mix.
There is no magic pull / bullet so to speak :-).

Thanks for the reflections NoopMed, they have been helpful to me for sure!

[NoopMed]

Hello All,

I haven't written much lately, but wanted to provide an update since I've been trying a few new things.

You may recall from previous posts that the exit from academic basic sciences and entry into clinical medicine presented some issues with my normal stack. I was having difficulty with sustained focus, energy, and efficiency. My default stack with Ginkgo, Piracetam, and Choline bitartrate at its core (seen above in my January 28th post), still seems to be superior for me in the 2 weeks prior to exams when I have the primary intention of absorbing and regurgitating testable knowledge (studying for multiple choice exams), however; I've still been trying a few different things for the daily, more work-oriented demands of my clinical duties on the hospital floors...

Modafinil obviously works great for this, but I have issues with using that on any kind of regular basis. I have an ethical concern using a prescription drug when not indicated, considering I advise against this to my patients! Secondly, it never seems to work well for more then 2-3 days for me, often leaving me with a run-down feeling afterwards.

About a year ago, I tried out CILTEP, and did not enjoy how it worked with my concurrent stack at that time... I was also using modafinil sporadically at that time and was in the midst of board exam prep. I felt scatterbrained and what I assume was something like the "brain fog" people often describe on these forums. Reflecting on this, I decided to abort my trial with CILTEP at that time and save it for another day, since I was in the midst of preparing for the most important exam of my career. The day to give it another shot came recently. Over the last few weeks I've had huge success with a modified CILTEP stack-- check out Abelard's thread here for the original: http://www.longecity...ly-induced-ltp/

I'm currently using this stack:

Breakfast:

-A combo pill that I pressed with:
* ~6mg Forskolin (20% extract from 125mg pill, opened pill and used approximately 30mg)
* ~60mg Ginkgo Biloba extract
* ~40mg Phenylpiracetam
* ~800mg Choline bitartrate

-450mg NOW Artichoke Extract

-48 Mg++ (in Magnesium L-Threonate)

-1000mg Cod Liver Oil

-1 Scoop Spark Energy Drink containing (important items listed first):
*500mg L-Tyrosine
*120mg Caffeine
*500mg Choline bitartrate/citrate mix
*15mg Vitamin B-6
*45mcg Vitamin B-12
*3mg Thiamine
*60mg Niacin

(Less important items, which are at multivitamin/sub-RDA levels)
*1000iu Vitamin A
*180mg Vitamin C
*30iu Vitamin E
*3.4mg Riboflavin
*50mg Pantothenic Acid
*3mg Zinc
*200mcg Copper
*24mcg Chromium
*200mg Taurine
*100mg Glycine
*50mg Citrus Flavinoids
*50mg GABA
*10mg L-Carnitine
*10mg Inositol


Lunch:

-1 Cup Coffee

-30mg Ginkgo biloba extract

-500mg Acetyl-L-Carntitine

-500mg L-Phenylalanine (Also have used

-500mg Choline bitartrate

-48 Mg++ (in Magnesium L-Threonate)


***Optional: 800-1400mg Piracetam with lunch if I plan to study heavily in the evening.


The above stack keeps me going strong all day in terms of energy, focus, mood, and efficiency/productivity. Since starting it, I've been rocking the floors and impressing residents/attendings left and right like never before. In the past, I've had poor experiences with Phenylpiracetam. I'm not sure if I'm just sensitive to it, but it used to make me very spaced-out and seemed to inhibit my rote recall at traditional doses. With this stack, I'm taking it at a much lower dose than most people normally would. The common dose is 100-200mg, BID or TID, and I'm using about 40mg just in the morning. At lower doses, such as the one indicated above, it seems perfect. Another thing to consider here is that I've been taking Magnesium L-Threonate daily for almost 4 months now, and if it's working as advertised my NMDA receptor population should be significantly increased at this point. Since CILTEP relies on NMDA activity for efficacy, this could also be the reason why it seems to work so much more efficaciously for me now. As you can read about in Abelard's thread, the CILTEP stack is predominately dopaminergic and cholinergic. Phenylpiracetam increases the density of D1, D2, and D3 receptors, while downregulating nAch and NMDA receptors. Mg++ increases NMDA receptor density, hopefully acting to balance this effect of Phenylpiracetam and assure ongoing efficacy of CILTEP via NMDA dependent LTP (long-term potentiation). Acetylcholine (Ach) receptors remain the one area of imbalance that I'm concerned about, but ongoing supplementation with choline precursors and Ginkgo biloba (which acts as a mild acetylcholinesterase inhibitor, without upregulating Ach-esterase gene expression), will hopefully continue to serve me well in that regard. Additionally, some evening THC (Marijuana) use could potentially benefit this stack... Stimulation of CB1, which is G(i)-protein linked in hippocampal neurons, decreases cAMP and facilitates LTD (long term depression, which directly counteracts the processes invoked by CILTEP). LTD is likely the reason why people attribute chronic marijuana use to negative memory effects, but it is still very important, necessary process. During LTD, weaker synaptic connections are eliminated and stronger synaptic connections are retained. This, in theory, works to ensure important memories are retained and useless memories are forgotten, increasing the efficiency of mental processing. This Synaptic Pruning may reduce tolerance to the actions of CILTEP on increasing cAMP concentrations and chronically increasing LTP. THC's action on CB1 receptors is also significantly shorter in duration than the very long half life of THC, which can remain in the body for 14-60 days in the regular user. The mechanism is not understood, at least according to my pharmacology professors, but there appears to be some process of adaptation in place-- otherwise one would be "stoned" for 14-60 days instead of the usual 4-6 hours. Another interesting thing about THC is that it ALSO acts as an Acetylcholinesterase inhibitor-- one that can stay in the body for a very long time! Something to consider perhaps. THC is a difficult substance to understand, and certainly difficult to advocate for since it is illegal in most locations (thankfully not here!), but I can say with certainty that my exam scores and cognitive performance in general has been objectively, quantifiably superior when using it 2-3 evenings per week. This may not be the case for everyone.


Ultimately, I still feel that the following stack works best for dedicated periods of studying and test-taking, and when I take it I'm able to really "dig-deeply" into my memory-- pulling out facts with some degree of automaticity that often surprises me:

Breakfast:
1 Scoop Spark (Caffeine and multivitamin)
Ginkgo 120mg
Fish Oil 1200mg
1400mg Piracetam

Lunch:
1 Scoop Spark (Caffeine and multivitamin)
Ginkgo 60mg
1400mg Piracetam

However, this stack invariably slows my speed of processing, makes me a little too relaxed, and definitely makes me less efficient when carrying out more routine, work-oriented duties.



Some other notes:
IDRA-21-- I've tried this a few more times now, and it always seems to make me nearly manic. I lose my need for sleep, and about 24 hours after taking it I seem to always become moody/labile. This is usually followed 48 hours later by fatigue, burn-out, and other undesirable adverse effects. I've had very little use for this one.

Huperzine A-- I've been trying this again recently as a substitute for Choline. With Magnesium L-Threonate on board I've had a lot more success with this, probably because the Mg++ is somehow effecting the mild NMDA antagonism induced by Huperzine. Despite more success with this, it only seems to work well for me during the first 3-4 days of use, then I begin to feel a choline burnout-- presumably my mAch/nAch receptors are being down regulated along with increases in Ach-esterase. I think cycling is very important if you plan to use this stuff, and in the end I choose to play it safe and let my brain regulate Ach a little more how it pleases by just providing the precursors (Choline bitartrate, in my case) for now.

[99%+]

Hi NoopMed!

 

Long time lurker here, looking for advice on my first nootropic stack.  

i'd just like to start by saying that I thoroughly enjoyed your post.  I also come from a medical background with plans of pursuing medicine in the near future and I just have to say that the research and explanations you provided to elucidate your thought process regarding each supplement, as well as your detailed description of the effects of each substance on you have been exceedingly helpful.  The fact that we share similar mental "demands" was an added bonus (recall and logic being highly prized in the medical fields).

 

I would like to ask for your input regarding my planned nootropic stack.  

 

A little more about me, i'm about to take my board exams and need something for intense focus and enhanced recall. Dosages have been based on your recommendations and the recommendations of "Science Guy".

 

Dosages are spaced 6 hours apart to provide a sustained systemic load, based on the average half-life of the substances involved.

 

8am

 

100mg Pramiracetam

4.8g Piracetam

300mg Oxiracetam

40mg Phenylpiracetam

10mg Noopept

500mg ALCAR

200mg Alpha-GPC

 

2pm

 

100mg Pramiracetam

4.8g Piracetam

300mg Oxiracetam

40mg Phenylpiracetam

10mg Noopept

500mg ALCAR

200mg Alpha-GPC

 

8pm

 

100mg Pramiracetam

4.8g Piracetam

300mg Oxiracetam

40mg Phenylpiracetam

10mg Noopept

500mg ALCAR

200mg Alpha-GPC

 

 

Total daily doses:

 

300mg Pramiracetam

14.4g Piracetam

900mg Oxiracetam

120mg Phenylpiracetam

30mg Noopept

1500mg ALCAR

600mg Alpha-GPC

 

Any thoughts and insights would be GREATLY appreciated.  Thanks in advance!

 

[NoopMed]

That seems like a TON of racetams!  You're taking a similar Piracetam dose in one sitting to what I take over an entire day, plus additional racetams.  Is it working for you?  For me, I would be concerned about significant brain fog... I do tend to go for the minimalist approach with stacks, and generally advocate for the minimum effective dose of any supplement or medication-- this helps avoid side effects.  I would be concerned for lethargy, fatigue, confusion, seizures... etc.  You get the picture.  Be careful!

 

 

 

Hi NoopMed!

 

Long time lurker here, looking for advice on my first nootropic stack.  

i'd just like to start by saying that I thoroughly enjoyed your post.  I also come from a medical background with plans of pursuing medicine in the near future and I just have to say that the research and explanations you provided to elucidate your thought process regarding each supplement, as well as your detailed description of the effects of each substance on you have been exceedingly helpful.  The fact that we share similar mental "demands" was an added bonus (recall and logic being highly prized in the medical fields).

 

I would like to ask for your input regarding my planned nootropic stack.  

 

A little more about me, i'm about to take my board exams and need something for intense focus and enhanced recall. Dosages have been based on your recommendations and the recommendations of "Science Guy".

 

Dosages are spaced 6 hours apart to provide a sustained systemic load, based on the average half-life of the substances involved.

 

8am

 

100mg Pramiracetam

4.8g Piracetam

300mg Oxiracetam

40mg Phenylpiracetam

10mg Noopept

500mg ALCAR

200mg Alpha-GPC

 

2pm

 

100mg Pramiracetam

4.8g Piracetam

300mg Oxiracetam

40mg Phenylpiracetam

10mg Noopept

500mg ALCAR

200mg Alpha-GPC

 

8pm

 

100mg Pramiracetam

4.8g Piracetam

300mg Oxiracetam

40mg Phenylpiracetam

10mg Noopept

500mg ALCAR

200mg Alpha-GPC

 

 

Total daily doses:

 

300mg Pramiracetam

14.4g Piracetam

900mg Oxiracetam

120mg Phenylpiracetam

30mg Noopept

1500mg ALCAR

600mg Alpha-GPC

 

Any thoughts and insights would be GREATLY appreciated.  Thanks in advance!

 

 

 

[LongecityM20]

Hey NoopMed could you please read your Inbox message. Its really important!

[Arjuna]

Gingko may not induce its effects through MAO-b inhibition, as it takes 1mg/mL in rats to detect that effect, which is a astronomical dose.

Raised norepinephrine cause the increase in dopamine.

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19427589

 

http://examine.com/s...o biloba/#ref72

[FocusPocus]

Hey noopmed,

 

hope youre doing wel

 

Any updates?

 

Also was hoping to ask you for some advice with a sleep stack.

 

When not using Caffeine/stimulants, 500mg Mg threonate knocks me out nicely.

 

Now its getting really difficult with all the caffeine I have in my system and the usual dose does nothing. And I cant afford to not use low dose stimulants nowadays, which is the only thing that works for me.

 

I tried about 750 mg Mg citrate powder, 400mg L-theanine and woke up with a depression. (Dosing L-theanine alone does this to me. I forgot about this)

 

Am a little confused about the elemental Mg doses.

 

My reasoning from a lot of searching is this:

 

400mg elemental Mg ~= 6 gms of Mg L threonate ~=2.5gms of Mg citrate

 

Would that be correct?

 

Mg threonate seems to be ridiculously expensive and the absorb health company (cheapest) doesnt seem to list the elemental Mg content. 

 

Proposed sleep stack:

Mg threonate 500mg powder,

Melatonin 500mcg- 1mg,

L-theanine 50mg,

 

 

Anything else I could add to this?

 

I saw suggestions of Glycine, Taurine etc in this forum, but I'm wondering if there would be side effects for me similar to what theanine does to me.

 

Hope you will rreply,

 

thanks

[NoopMed]

Hey FocusPocus,

 

I'm doing well, thanks for asking!  I'm applying to residencies and powering through 4th year med school at the moment. Just keepin' at it.  I took Step 2, and used a similar stack to what I used for Step 1.  Did well, but wish I had taken more time to study so I could have obliterated it.  Ultimately, no amount of Nootropic supplementation can make up for hard work, determination, and repetition/memorization on those exams.  This time around, I really only had about 1 week to study, which was broken up by some personal obligations among other things-- compared to the 5 weeks of isolated study-lockdown I set aside to prepare for Step 1.  I got essentially the same score, but the average score goes up quite a bit for Step 2, so in truth I suppose I did worse.  At the end of the day my performance during 3rd year clerkships and on Step 1 will make most any residency option available to me, which was the primary goal of all this.

 

My current stack is very pared down and minimalist for the moment, as I'd like to save the real kaboom for particularly stressful periods.

 

Breakfast:
1 Scoop Spark (Caffeine and multivitamin -- which lacks folate unfortunately)
Ginkgo 120mg

Folate- 800mcg

 

Lunch: 
Coffee
Ginkgo 60mg
 

On "challenging days," I add in 800mg Piracetam and 500mg Choline bitartrate twice a day, and occasionally use either Korean Ginseng, Siberian Ginseng, or EGCG for a boost.  Very rarely I use a small amount of Armodafinil, (1/4 of a 150mg tablet) if my circadian rhythm has been thrown way off by a night call duty, red eye plane flights, etc.

 

I've said this a million times now I think, but I'm yet again considering another longterm trial of Bacopa monnieri.  I'm hoping that with Piracetam mostly by the wayside for the moment, I'll have less GI side effects with Bacopa and reach the point where I can take it long enough to see real benefits.  The studies showing a significant increase in memory didn't have statistically significant outcomes until something like 5+ weeks of regular use.

 

Anyways... Gone are the days of mega stacking, since I haven't had the need to really sit down and cram 25 textbooks and 2500 practice questions into my brain.  I do find that if I miss my Ginkgo for a few days in a row, however; I slow down somewhat.  This has been a bit concerning, but considering some of the longevity data out there for Ginkgo, the overall benefit of taking it every day is likely worth it in and of itself.  So that's the plan for now.

 

 

Now to your question:

 

I've never had luck with L-Theanine.  I completely relate to the feelings of depression as an after effect of using this supplement. I generally feel pretty relaxed after taking it, but I also experience some GI discomfort that is hard to characterize.  A mild, painless nausea is the best I can do to describe it.  As it wears off, I feel anxiety, irritation, and generally pretty low.  This is all during daytime use with the goal of nootropic and anxiolytic effect.  As far as L-theanine as a sleep aid:  it doesn't make me feel sleepy enough to be effective and I generally wake up feeling unrested, however; this is very anecdotal since I haven't tried it long term or regularly enough to really judge its effectiveness as a sleep aid.

 

For good sleep, "sleep hygiene" has been the most important factor for me.

I just follow these rules:

-No caffeine or other stimulant after 4pm, unless I'm on call and need to stay alert past midnight.

-No exercise after 8pm.

-No TV in the bedroom.

-Keep my bedroom cool, and well ventilated. (My bedroom fan or A/C is always on when I'm sleeping).

-The bedroom is for the "Two S's":  Sleeping and Sex.  That's it... and maybe a (S)hort period of reading.

-Establish a routine-- It sounds stupid, but your body knows when you're trying to go to sleep.  I always read a few pages of a novel before I go to sleep.  These days I basically make my rounds, lock up the house, turn off the lights, take a melatonin, change into some boxers, open my book, and by the time I'm at page 6-7 my eyelids are getting heavy.  I turn off the light and fall asleep within minutes.

-Some people benefit from taking a hot shower before bed as part of their routine.  I need that shower to really wake up in the morning, so that's not me.

 

So as I mentioned there, all I really take is Melatonin.  If I'm feeling a little too awake, I take a 5mg Time-released tablet.  Usually I only take a 1mg tablet.  The key with melatonin is taking it, and then immediately getting into bed and trying to fall asleep.  It acts quickly, and wears off quickly, unless you use a time-release tablet.  I use the Natrol 5mg Melatonin TR when I really need to get snowed.  

 

Of course, Marijuana also works well to get to sleep...a couple hours after usage.  But, the downside of this is that with regular use it can also generate insomnia-- requiring regular use to fall asleep.  Some people also get night-sweats when they skip their bedtime weed.  In my own experience, a 500mg Tylenol (Acetaminophen) at bed time helps to break this cycle, if you find yourself in a loop.  I thought of this after reading a study that showed a metabolite of Acetaminophen to be a reuptake inhibitor of Anandamide-- the endogenous neurotransmitter that stimulates the CB1 and CB2 receptors of the endogenous cannabinoid system, the target of THC in Marijuana.  Some people also advocate for using Picamilon or another GABA agonist for this purpose, which did not work as well as simple acetominophen for me.

 

Finally, my own experiences with Glycine and Taurine have been exclusively in the stimulatory, nootropic context.  I have never used them to help me sleep.  I've found both to work well with Ginko/Piracetam, and both are in the Spark Energy Drink that I use.

 

Hope some of this helps!

[FocusPocus]

Thanks a lot! Good luck with the applications!