74 replies to this topic

[Cephalon]

Hi guys and gals,

Anyone tried this yet?

It's available as a nutritional supplement now: Demiurge by Antaeus Labs and comes in 50mg capsules.

Excited about reviews!

[@now]

Yup. 100mg in the morning, cycle it. Definetely more confident, focused and energetic. Works in 1-2h, for almost a day.

I liked aniracetam and/noopept better (after the build-up phase).

Don't take it after lunch, or you won't sleep much...

[Baten]

Very interesting indeed. It seems very stimulant-like though, something I'm not too interested in.

[@now]

Precisely. Handy every now and then, nothing more.

[Cephalon]

Thanks for your replys!

Can you compare it to Oxiracetam?

I'm trying Oxi preworkout today - let's see if there are any performance enhancing qualities to it.

Demiurge is really pricy at the moment. It's approx 60€ (80$ ?) for 60 * 50mg

Could you compare it to Caffeine?

[Baten]

I imagine two of Demiurge and two of these would rock your socks off. And empty your wallet.

[Raza]

I remember Phenylpiracetam causing massive upregulation of dopamine receptors in one study, which could be a very desirable effect in something that's an acute stimulant as well. I looked for it for a while after that, but couldn't find it anywhere reasonable.

This still isn't reasonable, but it might be getting closer.

[@now]

It's nothing like caffein - more boost, no jitters. After 1h of taking 100mg colors get more vivid fir some 20-30 minutes. Then, the rest of the day you (or at least I) "just do it".

I have the same with noopept after a few days, but phenylpiracetam is more of a stimulant.

Also, I got the Russian pharnaceutical-grade pills (noopept and phenotropil). I don't want to risk any form of contamination and like "standardized" quality. At €1-1.40 a day that's still cheap.... A cup of coffee will cost more.

Forgot to mention: both phenylpiracetam and noopept eliminate migrain/headaches completely, noopept more so.

Phenylpiracetam gives me a bit of a clenched jaw at the end of the day sometimes.

[CIMN]

http://www.strongsup...y-antaeus-labs/

another phenylpiracetam source!

, i'd be interested in hearing more user feedback on Phenylpiracetam. seems pretty unknown still.

I remember Phenylpiracetam causing massive upregulation of dopamine receptors in one study, which could be a very desirable effect in something that's an acute stimulant as well. I looked for it for a while after that, but couldn't find it anywhere reasonable.

This still isn't reasonable, but it might be getting closer.

This? http://www.totalflex...henylpiracetam/

In rat ex vivo experiments, phenylpiracetam has been found to bind to the nicotinic acetylcholine receptors and significantly increase the B_max (density) of NMDA receptors, nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, GABA_A receptors and dopamine (D1, D2, and D3) receptors, although it does not bind to dopamine or seratonin receptors. ^[9][11][12]

[9] Drugs. 2010 Feb 12;70(3):287-312
[10] OLFA product information: Entrop
[11] Clin Pharm 2007;4:22–6.

[12] Neurochemical Journal Volume 5, Number 2 (2011), 115-125

Edited by CIMN, 29 August 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[renfr]

Phenylpiracetam is just piracetam with a phenyl group right? If so then it's just stronger piracetam as it can cross the BBB more easily.

In rat ex vivo experiments, phenylpiracetam has been found to bind to the nicotinic acetylcholine receptors and significantly increase the B_max (density) of NMDA receptors, nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, GABA_A receptors and dopamine (D1, D2, and D3) receptors, although it does not bind to dopamine or seratonin receptors. ^[9][11][12]

This is very very interesting!

Sadly this supplier is a bit expensive when you read this :

While not widely available in the West, in Russia it is available as a prescription medicine under the brand name "Phenotropil". Packets of ten 100 mg pills are available for roughly 350 rubles (2011 price), or about 12 USD. It is typically prescribed as a general stimulant or to increase tolerance to cold and stress.

I hope Cerebral health plans on selling it.

[CIMN]

Phenylpiracetam is just piracetam with a phenyl group right? If so then it's just stronger piracetam as it can cross the BBB more easily.

Indeed, it is exactly piracetam with just a phenyl group, yet it is pretty darn expensive in comparison..
Still interesting but most people on this forum would like a cheaper source.

Edited by CIMN, 29 August 2012 - 06:45 PM.

[Heraclitean]

It's nothing like caffein - more boost, no jitters. After 1h of taking 100mg colors get more vivid fir some 20-30 minutes. Then, the rest of the day you (or at least I) "just do it".

I have the same with noopept after a few days, but phenylpiracetam is more of a stimulant.

Also, I got the Russian pharnaceutical-grade pills (noopept and phenotropil). I don't want to risk any form of contamination and like "standardized" quality. At €1-1.40 a day that's still cheap.... A cup of coffee will cost more.

Forgot to mention: both phenylpiracetam and noopept eliminate migrain/headaches completely, noopept more so.

Phenylpiracetam gives me a bit of a clenched jaw at the end of the day sometimes.

So 100mg in the morning lasts the entire day? If so, that is quite impressive.

[@now]

For me it does, but I'm a pretty good responder (in a positive way). You can stack it with a racetam to really "power up".

I.e. 1x a day 600mg aniracetam (lunchtime). But again, I'm a good responder.

[Heraclitean]

For me it does, but I'm a pretty good responder (in a positive way). You can stack it with a racetam to really "power up".

I.e. 1x a day 600mg aniracetam (lunchtime). But again, I'm a good responder.

I tend to respond favourably to racetams too. I may give Phenylpiracetam a whirl, but I'll have to do some more research... the price tag keeps me from jumping in and just ordering it, as I suppose it does to about 50% of the people in this forum.

Thanks for your contributions.

[Raza]

I remember Phenylpiracetam causing massive upregulation of dopamine receptors in one study, which could be a very desirable effect in something that's an acute stimulant as well. I looked for it for a while after that, but couldn't find it anywhere reasonable.

This still isn't reasonable, but it might be getting closer.

This? http://www.totalflex...henylpiracetam/

In rat ex vivo experiments, phenylpiracetam has been found to bind to the nicotinic acetylcholine receptors and significantly increase the B_max (density) of NMDA receptors, nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, GABA_A receptors and dopamine (D1, D2, and D3) receptors, although it does not bind to dopamine or seratonin receptors. ^[9][11][12]

[9] Drugs. 2010 Feb 12;70(3):287-312
[10] OLFA product information: Entrop
[11] Clin Pharm 2007;4:22–6.

[12] Neurochemical Journal Volume 5, Number 2 (2011), 115-125

Yeah, source 12 of that article is the one I'd read.

The way I read it it decreases NDMA receptor density, though? Increases are for various dopamine and GABA-a receptors. It's a mildly confusing read because they're measuring results as compared to influence of another drug, though. Someone else read source 12 and double check?

Also, I'm really wondering how they're establishing receptor density through this 'passive avoidance task'. That doesn't sound right at all.

Edited by Raza, 29 August 2012 - 10:24 PM.

[@now]

Yes, like I said: if you respond well to say, ani-, ... you might stick with that.

[ScienceGuy]

One word... TOLERANCE

[Heraclitean]

One word... TOLERANCE

Have you experienced this yourself, or is the part of the literature (or both)?

Seems like PhenylPiracetam is meant for use on an as needed basis anyway (important interview, presentation, etc. etc.)

[ScienceGuy]

One word... TOLERANCE

Have you experienced this yourself, or is the part of the literature (or both)?

Seems like PhenylPiracetam is meant for use on an as needed basis anyway (important interview, presentation, etc. etc.)

YES, I personally found I developed a TOLERANCE to its positive effects ridiculously quickly; and much more quickly than with MODAFINIL / ARMODAFINIL.

If you hunt around online you will find this is a pretty common occurrence; wherein there are numerous anecdotal reports from users.

See here for example:

...phenylpiracetam faces some real tolerance issues...

(from this thread: Re: Are there any racetams i can take in combination with memantine?)

and here:

Phenylpiracetam faces some serious tolerance issues...

(from this thread: Pramiracetam & Phenylpiracetam?)

Therefore, as you say, it is best to reserve it for very occasional use only as and when specifically needed.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 29 August 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[Heraclitean]

One word... TOLERANCE

Have you experienced this yourself, or is the part of the literature (or both)?

Seems like PhenylPiracetam is meant for use on an as needed basis anyway (important interview, presentation, etc. etc.)

YES, I personally found I developed a TOLERANCE to its positive effects ridiculously quickly; and much more quickly than with MODAFINIL / ARMODAFINIL.

If you hunt around online you will find this is a pretty common occurence; wherein there are numerous anecdotal reports from users.

See here for example:

...phenylpiracetam faces some real tolerance issues...

(from this thread: Re: Are there any racetams i can take in combination with memantine?)

and here:

Phenylpiracetam faces some serious tolerance issues...

(from this thread: Pramiracetam & Phenylpiracetam?)

Therefore, as you say, it is best to reserve it for very occasional use only as and when specifically needed.

Fantastic, thanks for the quick and thorough response. Considering how expensive it is, it is perhaps a good thing that such a strong tolerance develops, to keep you from going through your entire supply in 10 days on a run of superhuman productivity. This "serious" tolerance can act as a disciplinarian (unless you decide to take 5 days worth in 5 hours looking to "beat" the tolerance....).

[CIMN]

I wonder what the reason for the tolerance is?

[ScienceGuy]

I wonder what the reason for the tolerance is?

Possibly due to DOWN-REGULATION of the NICOTINIC ACETYLCHOLINE (nACh) RECEPTOR

The existing issue is very little studies conducted on HUMANS, wherein most of the data relates to RODENT STUDIES; however, LIGAND BINDING experiments have shown that PHENYLPIRACETAM does indeed bind to this receptor; these were IN VITRO as opposed to IN VIVO, however they further support the findings via the RODENT STUDIES and are an indication that this could be how TOLERANCE occurs.

See here for example:

Drugs. 2010 Feb 12;70(3):287-312.

Piracetam and piracetam-like drugs: from basic science to novel clinical applications to CNS disorders.

Malykh AG, Sadaie MR.

Source

NovoMed Consulting, Silver Spring, Maryland 20904, USA.

EXTRACT FROM FULL TEXT

The affinity of phenylpiracetam to the nicotinitic acetylcholine (nACh) receptor, but not the glutamate NMDA subtype, was demonstrated in ligand binding experiments in vitro.

Edited by ScienceGuy, 30 August 2012 - 04:41 AM.

[ScienceGuy]

The way I read it it decreases NDMA receptor density, though? Increases are for various dopamine and GABA-a receptors. It's a mildly confusing read because they're measuring results as compared to influence of another drug, though. Someone else read source 12 and double check?

Also, I'm really wondering how they're establishing receptor density through this 'passive avoidance task'. That doesn't sound right at all.

There seems to currently be conflicting evidence in this regard; see here for example, whilst yet another RODENT STUDY, its data does appear to conflict:

Drugs. 2010 Feb 12;70(3):287-312.

Piracetam and piracetam-like drugs: from basic science to novel clinical applications to CNS disorders.

Malykh AG, Sadaie MR.

Source

NovoMed Consulting, Silver Spring, Maryland 20904, USA.

EXTRACT FROM FULL TEXT

...injection of this drug (100mg/kg, intraperitoneally) to rats increases the numbers of both nACh and NMDA receptors, but decreases serotonin and dopamine receptors in the brain tissue…

Edited by ScienceGuy, 30 August 2012 - 04:43 AM.

[Raza]

Right, that is pretty contradictory. For the moment, also considering the tolerance issue, I'm just going to assume it downregulates whatever receptors it stimulates directly or indirectly to achieve its stimulant effect. Taking it at this point in hopes of improving receptor distribution would seem inadequately founded.

[renfr]

One word... TOLERANCE

Have you experienced this yourself, or is the part of the literature (or both)?

Seems like PhenylPiracetam is meant for use on an as needed basis anyway (important interview, presentation, etc. etc.)

YES, I personally found I developed a TOLERANCE to its positive effects ridiculously quickly; and much more quickly than with MODAFINIL / ARMODAFINIL.

If you hunt around online you will find this is a pretty common occurrence; wherein there are numerous anecdotal reports from users.

See here for example:

...phenylpiracetam faces some real tolerance issues...

(from this thread: Re: Are there any racetams i can take in combination with memantine?)

and here:

Phenylpiracetam faces some serious tolerance issues...

(from this thread: Pramiracetam & Phenylpiracetam?)

Therefore, as you say, it is best to reserve it for very occasional use only as and when specifically needed.

But the tolerance will not impeach upregulation of dopamine, NMDA, etc... from happening, right?

[CognitionCoefficient]

I've been largely unimpressed with most of the -racetams. Piracetam and Noopept seem to improve my verbal fluency, but it's effects are rather limited beyond that. Aniracetam provided for a calming mild sedation. Pramiracetam appeared to produce a modestly increased task-oriented focus at the expense of sociability, and Oxiracetam produced a somewhat 'speedy' effect with a limited improvement in task-oriented focus.

I'd be interested in hearing more, but the anecdotes preceding most of these substances' wider online distribution over the years has proven exaggerated personally.

I look forward to reading more of the sparse published research, and experimenting with this substance at some point. It's low outside cost and potential benefits make it a net positive investment. If PP can reverse methylphenidate & adderall induced tolerance, it will be a valuable addition to my regimen on that basis alone.

Edited by CognitionCoefficient, 31 August 2012 - 05:00 AM.

[Baten]

I've been largely unimpressed with most of the -racetams. Piracetam and Noopept seem to improve my verbal fluency, but it's effects are rather limited beyond that. Aniracetam provided for a calming mild sedation. Pramiracetam appeared to produce a modestly increased task-oriented focus at the expense of sociability, and Oxiracetam produced a somewhat 'speedy' effect with a limited improvement in task-oriented focus.

Sounds very similar to my experiences. Ani = anxiolytic, calming, Prami = boosted motivation also, oxi = speedy and almost trippy.

[ScienceGuy]

If PP can reverse methylphenidate & adderall induced tolerance, it will be a valuable addition to my regimen on that basis alone.

Specifically regarding effectively reversing "methylphenidate & adderall induced tolerance", if you have not done so already I suggest you read up on MEMANTINE

There exists a huge quantity of information contained within threads and posts in these forums on that specfic subject

[CognitionCoefficient]

If PP can reverse methylphenidate & adderall induced tolerance, it will be a valuable addition to my regimen on that basis alone.

Specifically regarding effectively reversing "methylphenidate & adderall induced tolerance", if you have not done so already I suggest you read up on MEMANTINE

There exists a huge quantity of information contained within threads and posts in these forums on that specfic subject

Memantine is top of mind, but I'm having difficulty sourcing it in Canada and my doctor is reticent about prescribing the medication. I devoted a thread to this discussion, but suffice it to say, I've been looking for decent alternatives since then.

[ScienceGuy]

But the tolerance will not impeach upregulation of dopamine, NMDA, etc... from happening, right?

The problem is that there currently does not exist substantiated scientific evidence to demonstrate precisely what are and are not PHENYLPIRACETAM's pharmacological effects, in that the number of studies are too few, and the majority of those are either RODENT studies or IN VITRO and hence do not necessarily apply to HUMANS; and coupled with this there in fact exists conflicting studies... Note the study extract I posted above wherein it is reported that PHENYLPIRACETAM in fact induces a REDUCTION in DOPAMINE RECEPTORS in the RAT BRAIN. Hence, I do not think we can say for sure that PHENYLPIRACETAM causes "upregulation of dopamine, NMDA, etc"