14 replies to this topic

[hbar]

Does anyone have suggestions for supplements that can help prevent formation of kidney stones or reduce the size of ones already formed? I've had an asymptomatic kidney stone for a while now (discovered by accident during an ultrasound for an unrelated problem), but have had a hard time finding reliable information for what works and what doesn't. The only truly universal recommendation seems to be to drink a lot of water, but are there any other proven non-pharmaceutical ways of dealing with kidney stones?

[hamishm00]

IP6 has got to be your best bet.

[nameless]

Magnesium, with magnesium citrate probably being most effective. Potassium citrate is used too, and it's a prescription med for kidney stones. It also depends on what type of stone it is. Calcium oxalate stones are the most common, but there are other types too.

Best to eat a low oxalate diet if it's the cal oxalate type.

Edited by nameless, 29 August 2012 - 04:51 PM.

[hmm]

Clearly correct supplementation must be dependent on the composition of the stones. I believe my stones were calcium oxalate, which I think is common, perhaps the most common composition of kidney stones. My pain from the cramps/contractions of various parts of my body due to the stones was almost immediately alleviated by drinking a mixture of lemon juice and virgin olive oil. I drank this mixture after my second lithotripsy treatment, when the pain had become so relentless I felt compelled to try anything and everything to put an end to it.

A subsequent x-ray showed that most of the original, large stone was gone, and two smaller fragments remained. Both the urologist and I felt confident that the improvement was from the lithotripsy, and I still feel that way. Fast-forward a couple of years to last January, and apparently the two remaining stones became feisty and started causing severe pain again. This time I immediately started drinking olive oil and fresh-squeezed lemon juice. Again, the severe pain went away within a half hour of drinking the original glass of oil/lemon juice. As well, I started drinking apple cider vinegar, a kind of 2nd most-favorite home remedy for kidney stones. I kept drinking the lemon juice/olive oil every day for the next week, and for the next few weeks I also pounded down a few swigs of apple vinegar cider.

In late February I had a cat scan done on the kidney, and in March I received the results that the stones were completely gone. Here is the link to the site I referenced for the recipe and the posts by people describing their success/failure in using the remedy: http://www.earthclin...ney_stones.html .

[Cycnut]

I used to have problem with kidney stones and was hospitalized once for a really bad blockage. That said, I drink distilled water (devoid of all salts, including calcium) to help disolve the stone. I then supplement the sodium, potassium, magnesium to prevent deficiency and within a few days the issue is resolved.

I will say that oxalic acid containing founds should be avoided and try to eat a more basic diet (less protein and refined carbs). Salts that contain usable anions (citrate or amino acid chelates) will leave the body mildly basic. Stay away from sulfur containing foods (those containing significant amounts of L-methionine, taurine, cysteine) as these are converted to acidic products and require basic cations to counter the acidic sulfates (e.g, calcium and magnesium).

[zorba990]

Chanca Piedra:
http://rainforest-da...ants/chanca.htm

[cesium]

I second the magnesium citrate, haven't had a reoccurence since I began supplementing it. Of course I was most likely very deficient in magnesium to begin with, so not sure how much it would help those who are already getting an adequate amount. Might depend on the type (composition) of the particular stone too.

[hbar]

Thanks for all the suggestions so far! Regarding magnesium, I do take it as part of my daily regimen (which also includes a multi, K2, D3, zinc, aspirin, and fish oil). Though I'm taking mag taurate, not citrate.

That being said, what about magnesium malate? I've been told that malic acid can help reduce kidney stones (hence the recommendations to drink apple cider vinegar), so would that be a plausible or even preferable alternative to mag citrate? I used to take mag malate a while ago but had switched to mag glycinate and now taurate.

Unfortunately I don't know the composition of the stone because it hasn't come out yet. I had a CT scan about 4 years ago, but I can't recall whether or not the composition of the stone was determined (not even sure that's possible with a CT scan). I actually just had an ultrasound which hardly showed any stones at all. The tech said there were a couple very small stones less than 1mm in diameter, but that was only after I asked if he saw any stones. And I'm currently living in Africa, where medical services are not exactly to be trusted. Still, back in 2008 when the stone was discovered it was over 2mm in size, and even on the ultrasound was quite noticeable. So I'm probably going to have another ultrasound done, and if the second one also doesn't show any significant stones, then maybe what I've already done is enough. Not sure I'd really want to be swallowing straight vinegar every day unless it's really necessary

[hmm]

Not sure I'd really want to be swallowing straight vinegar every day unless it's really necessary

Heh! May the stones never get so bad that it would become necessary! But believe, me, if they get big and mean enough, you will promise to stand on your head in a vat of of icewater for hours at at time if you think it will stop that pain...

But seriously, the thing that blows me away is the extreme contrast between the medical professionals "healing" me with 2 $10,000 lithotripsy procedures and their favorite pain-killing drugs (vicodin, oxycontin), and all that expense and effort doing very little to ease the suffering. And all that pain finally ended by a glass filled with 2 oz. hand- squeezed lemon juice and 2 oz. extra virgin olive oil...

[rubegoldberg]

test your urine pH. if it's lower than 6 take (K/Na)bicarbonate to get it to a range between 6 and 7.

half teaspoon or less / 20oz water should be enough to cause a measurable move.

[hamishm00]

Urine PH is an extremely poor indicator of anything related to kidney stones if you are supplementing Vitamin C (which many do here).

Dietary intake of Vitamin c will ramp up your urine PH, so should you stop supplementing vitamin C?. Concerns over dietary intake of vitamin C causing kidney stones are not justified by the available literature on the subject.

from http://lpi.oregonsta...dneystones.html


For many years, experts have speculated that the intake of large amounts of vitamin C may contribute to the formation of oxalate-type kidney stones because of the metabolic conversion of vitamin C to oxalic acid. If the amount of oxalic acid in the urine increases as the dose of vitamin C increases, they reasoned, then a prolonged intake of large amounts of vitamin C may cause kidney stones. Some experimental evidence supports this concern. For instance, Dr. Constance Tsao, formerly with the Linus Pauling Institute of Science and Medicine, published two studies in the 1980s that investigated the relationship between vitamin C and oxalic acid. In one study, Dr. Tsao demonstrated that doses of 3-10 grams/day of vitamin C taken by ten subjects for 2-10 years did not result in abnormal levels of oxalic acid in the blood. In the other study, however, she showed that the ingestion of 10 grams/day of vitamin C by six subjects resulted in slightly elevated levels of oxalic acid in the urine, although the amount was within the range obtained by the consumption of normal diets. In contrast, a study with six subjects published in 1996 by Dr. Mark Levine and colleagues at the National Institutes of Health found that increasing the daily intake of vitamin C from 200 mg to 1,000 mg resulted in an increase in urinary oxalic acid of about 30%. Consequently, Dr. Levine suggested that the "upper safe doses of vitamin C are less than 1,000 mg daily in healthy people", although he noted that several earlier studies had not found any association between the incidence of kidney stones and the regular daily intake of 1,000 mg or more of vitamin C.
Dr. Carol Johnston of Arizona State University published an article in Nutrition Reviews in March in which she reviewed the scientific and medical evidence that might allow the establishment of an "upper intake level" for vitamin C. She examined the evidence on "rebound scurvy", kidney stones, hemolytic anemia in patients with glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency, enhanced iron absorption, pro-oxidant effects, and the destruction of vitamin B12. She noted that the experimental, clinical, and epidemiological evidence does not support a detrimental role for vitamin C in any of these conditions, although we still do not know the effect of large amounts of vitamin C in people with hemochromatosis, or iron-overload disease. Her analysis is in agreement with the many other reviews of the safety of supplemental vitamin C. Dr. Johnston concludes that "the available data indicate that very high intakes of vitamin C (2-4 g/day) are well tolerated biologically in healthy mammalian systems. Currently, strong scientific evidence to define and defend a UL [Tolerable Upper Intake Level] for vitamin C is not available." In other words, we cannot establish a threshold of toxicity for vitamin C.
To this evidence, we can add another recently published study by Dr. Gary Curhan and colleagues at Harvard, Brigham and Women’s Hospital, and Massachusetts General Hospital. For 14 years, Dr. Curhan et al. followed a group of 85,557 women with no prior history of kidney stones. Their intake of vitamin B6 and vitamin C was assessed and correlated with the development of stones. Daily intakes of 40 mg or more of vitamin B6 provided significant protection against the formation of stones, but there was no significant difference in stone formation between the groups with the lowest (less than 250 mg/day) and highest (1,500 mg/day or more) intake of vitamin C. In a previous study of a group of over 45,000 men followed for 6 years, the authors found a protective role for vitamin C but not for vitamin B6. They conclude, "...our findings for vitamin C, which have been consistent for women and men, do not support the practice of routine restriction of vitamin C to prevent kidney stones." Addressing previous experimental studies that associated vitamin C with increased urinary oxalate (the salt of oxalic acid), the authors point to another study from 1994, which showed that vitamin C is easily converted to oxalate during analytical procedures. Therefore, the increased amounts of oxalate observed in urine may have been artifactually produced and have no relation to what happens in the body.
The accumulated evidence demonstrates that vitamin C, even in large amounts, is a remarkably safe substance. This evidence strongly supports the role of vitamin C as an important antioxidant, not a pro-oxidant. While we know that the relatively small amount of 100-200 mg/day provides substantial protection against age-related diseases, including heart disease, cancer, and cataract, and that a still smaller amount prevents scurvy, we do not yet know the optimal amount of vitamin C (see "The Optimal Intake of Vitamin C" by Stephen Lawson, LPI Newsletter Spring/Summer 1997). Large doses of vitamin C have been shown to be of therapeutic benefit in promoting relaxation of the arteries (vasodilation), which benefits patients with heart disease and "coronary risk factors", such as diabetes, high serum cholesterol levels, and high serum homocysteine levels. Large doses of vitamin C are also useful in combating viral infections, preventing toxemia in pregnant women (possibly through vasodilation), and as an adjunct to the appropriate conventional treatment of cancer. There is also a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence and some clinical evidence that vitamin C may be of benefit in treating other illnesses and conditions. The difficulty of determining the optimal intake of vitamin C is due to its many different functions in the body, biochemical individuality, and the impracticability of measuring the vitamin C content of various tissues and organs in healthy people in order to correlate those amounts with blood levels and optimal function.
Over twenty years ago, Linus Pauling proposed that the RDA for vitamin C should be increased to 200 mg/day. At about the same time, he mustered theoretical and experimental arguments to support his belief at that time that the optimal intake for humans is about 2 grams/day. While the merits of ingesting that much vitamin C or more each day are debatable, at least we can be confident that large doses are not harmful for healthy people and may be of therapeutic benefit in many cases. In particular, the concern about the role of vitamin C in kidney stone formation, a source of speculation for several decades, appears to be no longer justified.



IP6 at night is a good option for those prone to kidney stones - \


Phytate acts as an inhibitor in formation of renal calculi.

Grases F, Isern B, Sanchis P, Perello J, Torres JJ, Costa-Bauza A.

Source

Laboratory of Renal Lithiasis Research, University Institute of Health Sciences Research (IUNICS), University of Balearic Islands, Palma of Mallorca, Spain. fgrases@uib.es

Abstract

The aim of this study was to assess the inhibitory action of phytate in formation of renal calculi. Hypertension (induced by nicotine) combined with hypercalcemia (induced by D vitamin) was used to induce calcification in renal tissue in male Wistar rats that were fed a purified phytate free diet. Phytate non-treated rats developed significant calcium deposits in kidneys and papillae, as well as in kidney tubules and vessels, whereas calcium deposits were absent in control and phytate treated rats. Fragments of hydroxyapatite (HAP) calculi exhibited the capacity to induce the growth of calcium salts on their surfaces. Presence of 1.5 mg/L of phytate in the synthetic urine inhibited the formation of calcium oxalate monohydrate on HAP renal calculi in normocalciuric conditions. The findings show that the action of phytate as a crystallization inhibitor takes place both in the intrapapillary tissue and urine.

Edited by hamishm00, 02 September 2012 - 07:39 AM.

[rubegoldberg]

where did you find your information correlating vitamin C intake and urinary pH?


according to these studies ... http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12631089 and http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12853784 referenced here http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1472830/

2g did not effect urinary pH.

[mikey]

Taking higher potencies of vitamin B6 and vitamin C have been shown to reduce the potential for stone formation.

First, considering vitamin B6 - http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2100414 - In this study, a 21% decrease in the potential for stone formation was seen in healthy women who took 200 mg of B6 per day.

And the full text of the Curhan study showed that for those who took between 10 and 500 mg of Vitamin B6 per day, higher doses were shown to be associated with fewer kidney stones.

For those who are concerned that Vitamin C intake might increase the risk of kidney stones, the authors of http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9429689 stated, ”In the large-scale Harvard Prospective Health Professional Follow-Up Study, those groups in the highest quintile of Vitamin C intake, above 1,500 mg per day, had a lower risk of kidney stones than the groups in the lowest quintiles.”

As Dr. Carol S. Johnston said, when the USDA directed her to find a UL for vitamin C, "Currently, strong scientific evidence to define and defend a UL [Tolerable Upper Intake Level] for vitamin C is not available."

I remember reading through her materials back at that time and her statement that “the available data indicate that very high intakes of vitamin C (2-4 g/day) are well tolerated biologically in healthy mammalian systems” seemed understated because the totality of her data pointed to 2-4 g/day as producing more optimal effects than lesser amounts.

Further, I found that my allergies diminish considerably when I take 6,000 or more mg/day but less doesn’t help, so I’ve been taking that for over 40 years.

However one looks at vitamin C, it doesn't exhibit cytotoxicity and when we calculate how much vitamin C other primates, whose bodies, like ours, don't make vitamin C, get from their wild diets, for our relative body size, 2,000+ mg/day makes sense and less can be argued to create a deficiency that reduces our potential for long-term optimum health.

Edited by mikey, 03 September 2012 - 02:06 AM.

[kurdishfella]

Alchohole flushes out kidney stones and wine can prevent it.

[kurdishfella]

Kidney stones are caused by lack of antioxidants and slower metabolism, because all the waste that makes kidney stones are built up in the body due to body being slower to get rid of it, so it builds up until one day it becomes too much in the blood and your body forces it all out at once causing the stones. So the best way is to take antioxidants to prevent them and get rid of them even if it has already turned into a stone because the antioxidants will break it apart into tiniest cells . glutathione and vitamin c