6219 replies to this topic

[Michael Wallace]

I was clicking through many forums getting aquainted with things, since I'm a nobody. I just happend upon this one and noticed the bickering. I knew something interesting must be going on with this compound if there is fighting over it. So I stopped and took special interest in it. I enjoyed that there are those who fought to preserve knowlege for the sake of the big picture rather than for selfish gain. I also enjoy that there are people on these forums who are watching out for possible backlash or legal issues who were trying to warn and protect the community. There is such a vibrant and interesting comunity here. I wish the best for the participants.

[sunshinefrost]

The truth is, there is no way to keep this compound a secret... It's not really our secret to guard. Regardless of how things play out here, the compound will likely make its way to the masses: first for MDD, then for other disorders, and eventually for the enhancement of healthy individuals (the same way we use piracetam).

Those who are legitimately concerned and nervous about legal implications will calm down with time. We're not doing anything that hasn't been done before. We're not kidnapping a nun or killing scores of puppys. We're just pitching in to get an early sample of a compound that's on it's way to Phase-II trials and we're testing it on our lab rats . I personally think we should wait until the official completion of Phase-I before proceeding, but that's just me. It's also not too late to put together some sort of liability waiver if we feel that's necessary.

Those who are egotistical enough to want to keep it private to have an edge over others will eventually boil over in the boredom of their own self-worship and come to the forums to flaunt their experiences. It's going to happen. Sorry, it just is.

This is a really amazing thing we're doing guys, it's going to be exciting either which way and you're going to want to share it w/ everyone like ScienceGuy shared in the Coluracetam Forum.

Well put...

Edited by sunshinefrost, 21 May 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[Passion]

The compound is reported to affect primarily the hippocampus. Assuming none of us has any sort of neural imaging machine in their laboratory (except maybe ScienceGuy), we're going to have to go with other means.

The first step would be to narrow down exactly what should expected from an increased hippocampus. Based on the Wikipedia entry for Hippocampus, here's what I would look for:

• Spatial Memory / Awareness
• Navigation
• Long Term Potentiation
• Conscious Recollection

We can't really test LTP or Conscious Recollection via Cambridge Brain Sciences but I think Spatial Memory and Navigation can definitely work. I would also like to benchmark working memory via n-back since its connection to the hippocampus is being suggested in some places like here.

There are some really good games on Lumosity that can test all this stuff though. For spatial memory/navigation, there's on where a maze keeps rotating as you try to navigate through it. For LTP and recollection, there's a game where you play as a waiter and try to remember people's names as they come in. Many of the same people come in during later sessions so remembering someone's name today will affect your performance tomorrow.

The only thing that sucks is that Lumosity costs $$. But maybe it's worth it for the benchmark for those of us that can afford it.

Edited by Passion, 21 May 2013 - 07:22 AM.

[hadora]

The truth is, there is no way to keep this compound a secret... It's not really our secret to guard. Regardless of how things play out here, the compound will likely make its way to the masses: first for MDD, then for other disorders, and eventually for the enhancement of healthy individuals (the same way we use piracetam).

Those who are legitimately concerned and nervous about legal implications will calm down with time. We're not doing anything that hasn't been done before. We're not kidnapping a nun or killing scores of puppys. We're just pitching in to get an early sample of a compound that's on it's way to Phase-II trials and we're testing it on our lab rats . I personally think we should wait until the official completion of Phase-I before proceeding, but that's just me. It's also not too late to put together some sort of liability waiver if we feel that's necessary.

Those who are egotistical enough to want to keep it private to have an edge over others will eventually boil over in the boredom of their own self-worship and come to the forums to flaunt their experiences. It's going to happen. Sorry, it just is.

This is a really amazing thing we're doing guys, it's going to be exciting either which way and you're going to want to share it w/ everyone like ScienceGuy shared in the Coluracetam Forum.

Seconded a million times yes

Now on to... "How the Hell Are We Going to Test This?". Anyone got an MIR in their back room . But seriously how do we test for new neuronal growth in humans or can we rely on secondary effects as a result of new neurons being created? Cambridge Brain Sciences may help here a bit.

i have got severe anxiety and memory problems after my coma, so it will be pretty obvious if it work on me :D

[megatron]

Is anyone going to test PRL 8-53 and NSI-189 both at once? I would assume growing new neurons take some time (at least a month), and the potential effects on intelligence may take some time to set in. The intelligence gains (if any) are likely to be permanent. On the other hand we have PRL 8-53 which according to the study gives both increased working - and long term memory, almost immediately. It seems like both substances arrive almost at the same time (maybe a week difference). What do you think.

Also, I think we should have some standardized test regimen that all participants follow. Dual N-back should definitely be part of it. I also promote the Cambridge-brain-sciences tests.

[Renegade]

Does NSI-189 promote neurogenesis in any brain regions other than the hippocampus? Also - when can we expect the results from the next phase of the trials to be released? Sorry if these have been discussed.

[sparkk51]

Is anyone going to test PRL 8-53 and NSI-189 both at once? I would assume growing new neurons take some time (at least a month), and the potential effects on intelligence may take some time to set in. The intelligence gains (if any) are likely to be permanent. On the other hand we have PRL 8-53 which according to the study gives both increased working - and long term memory, almost immediately. It seems like both substances arrive almost at the same time (maybe a week difference). What do you think.

Also, I think we should have some standardized test regimen that all participants follow. Dual N-back should definitely be part of it. I also promote the Cambridge-brain-sciences tests.

Asked about it earlier, but no one responded. I am hopeful that NSI-189 will be able to build an infrastructure surrounding the effects of PRL-8-53. For this reason, I am going to be taking both at the same time

[sunshinefrost]

Is anyone going to test PRL 8-53 and NSI-189 both at once? I would assume growing new neurons take some time (at least a month), and the potential effects on intelligence may take some time to set in. The intelligence gains (if any) are likely to be permanent. On the other hand we have PRL 8-53 which according to the study gives both increased working - and long term memory, almost immediately. It seems like both substances arrive almost at the same time (maybe a week difference). What do you think.

Also, I think we should have some standardized test regimen that all participants follow. Dual N-back should definitely be part of it. I also promote the Cambridge-brain-sciences tests.

Asked about it earlier, but no one responded. I am hopeful that NSI-189 will be able to build an infrastructure surrounding the effects of PRL-8-53. For this reason, I am going to be taking both at the same time

modulating PRL-853 through NSI-189.... wow, the posts in these thread will be fascinating to read.

Here's a working memory test for you: if NSI improves Higher order cognitive skills like working memory, which improves recollection and increases the buffer visuospatial sketchpad through the central executive, and PRL improves digit recollection from 7 to 22 digits, then taking NSI followed by PRL could yeild to 40 digit retention. True or False

[Renegade]

The elitist 'camp' seriously need to consider which is more valuable:

a) A ridiculously small chance that IF this turns out to be an effective cognitive enhancer, that it is not sufficiently promoted and the general population will not not be aware, thus giving them an elitist 'edge' over society. In my opinion, this viewpoint is based on grandiose obsessions.
b) The good possibility of helping people with brain disorders and sustaining this forum as the inclusive and helpful community it is.

Proponents of 'a' frankly do not deserve any of the life enhancing information they may have gained from the open discussion and availability of information on this forum.
Sorry for bringing this issue back, I just wanted to make my voice heard as I have benefited much from the availability of information on here.

Edited by Renegade, 22 May 2013 - 02:21 PM.

[spookytooth]

The elitist 'camp' seriously need to consider which is more valuable:

a) A ridiculously small chance (in my opinion, based on grandiose obsessions) that IF this turns out to be an effective cognitive enhancer, that it is not sufficiently promoted and the general population will not not be aware, thus giving them an elitist 'edge' over society.
b) The good possibility of helping people with brain disorders and sustaining this forum as the inclusive and helpful community it is.

Proponents of 'a' frankly do not deserve any life enhancing information they have gained from the open discussion and availability of information on this forum. Sorry for bringing this issue back, I just wanted to make my voice heard as I have benefited much from the availability of information on here.

+1
I am a huge advocate of free publicly accessible information and thus equal opportunities for everyone!

[Xenix]

The elitist 'camp' seriously need to consider which is more valuable:

a) A ridiculously small chance (in my opinion, based on grandiose obsessions) that IF this turns out to be an effective cognitive enhancer, that it is not sufficiently promoted and the general population will not not be aware, thus giving them an elitist 'edge' over society.
b) The good possibility of helping people with brain disorders and sustaining this forum as the inclusive and helpful community it is.

Proponents of 'a' frankly do not deserve any life enhancing information they have gained from the open discussion and availability of information on this forum. Sorry for bringing this issue back, I just wanted to make my voice heard as I have benefited much from the availability of information on here.

Either way, if it does turn out to be a potent cognitive enhancer, expect the elitism on this board to skyrocket.

[Reformed-Redan]

Lol, I don't get what's the whining about. You were in the first group buy, great. You weren't, well... sucks for you.

[Patrick Sylvester]

I knew something interesting must be going on with this compound if there is fighting over it.

expect the elitism on this board to skyrocket.

LoL! all too true heuristics, quoted for predictive record.

Is anyone going to test PRL 8-53 and NSI-189 both at once?

Asked about it earlier, but no one responded. I am hopeful that NSI-189 will be able to build an infrastructure surrounding the effects of PRL-8-53. For this reason, I am going to be taking both at the same time

i can see people taking both, reporting immediate results from the PaRL but incorrectly attributing them to the NSI.
im not sure what to expect considering the limited data on PaRL show that in the tests the participants showed improvements over control group after 24 hr with residual benefits over control after a 5 day week, which means that isolated results are pretty much impossible since i know like none will hold off NSI for 5 whole days. 24 h maybe, 5 days no way. well, what about isolated results from NSI? i assume it takes a while to grow neurons and physical portions of brain mass so if this is true then any immediate posts about NSI should be met with extreme skepticism. unless your growing brain the second NSI touches your tongue. anyways, i guess if anything the NSI will be a good way of exhibiting the false placebo-prophets since it would take a full participant reaction if it did (grow brain now.) that would be a cooperative game which we all know hinges on communication which we all know placebo-prophets are incapable of doing.

To determine retention 24 h and 4 days after every test,

[Rior]

I want to bring forth a possibility: Those of us with lasting post-marijuana mental deficits may undergo tremendous benefit from NSI-189 use. I base this assessment off of the following article, stating that long-term cannabis users show noticeable reductions in hippocampal size:
http://www.scienceda...80602160845.htm
And the following study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18519827

Now, for the reasons of being fair I must say that the jury is still (kind of) out on whether or not long-term cannabis use induces morphological changes. However, there is plenty of evidence (including the above study) that indicate that it does.

That said, a shrunken hippocampus due to long-term cannabis use would result in the symptoms of increased anxiety, lesser ability for recall, and lesser capacity for thought in general. If NSI-189 truly does promote an average of 20% hippocampal growth, that could potentially completely reverse long-term cannabis-induced morphological changes and their subsequent symptoms.

This would be fantastic! I know I'm currently still reeling from a time in my life (age 17) where I had been/was heavily smoking weed every day for about 2 years. Definitely caused me some lasting issues there, and my mind certainly isn't in the same place it was before. (I'm now 21)

Really looking forward to this synthesis being completed

[lourdaud]

Anyone wants to split their share with me?

[Renegade]

I want to bring forth a possibility: Those of us with lasting post-marijuana mental deficits may undergo tremendous benefit from NSI-189 use. I base this assessment off of the following article, stating that long-term cannabis users show noticeable reductions in hippocampal size:
http://www.scienceda...80602160845.htm
And the following study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18519827

Now, for the reasons of being fair I must say that the jury is still (kind of) out on whether or not long-term cannabis use induces morphological changes. However, there is plenty of evidence (including the above study) that indicate that it does.

That said, a shrunken hippocampus due to long-term cannabis use would result in the symptoms of increased anxiety, lesser ability for recall, and lesser capacity for thought in general. If NSI-189 truly does promote an average of 20% hippocampal growth, that could potentially completely reverse long-term cannabis-induced morphological changes and their subsequent symptoms.

This would be fantastic! I know I'm currently still reeling from a time in my life (age 17) where I had been/was heavily smoking weed every day for about 2 years. Definitely caused me some lasting issues there, and my mind certainly isn't in the same place it was before. (I'm now 21)

Really looking forward to this synthesis being completed

Interesting. Similar to you - I was a heavy user for a number of years in my teens. I am part of the group buy so it will be interesting to compare our experiences.

These studies also make me more inclined to continue with my exercise routine of 30 mins cardio 5x per week, as physical exercise has been linked to growth in the hippocampus. This fact makes me consider that hippocampus growth is not quite as exotic as it is being pitched regarding NSI-189, however 20% would appear to be a huge amount of growth, which can not be achieved though any alternative intervention as far as I know.

It would seem the general consensus is that this molecule is to be taken for the short term and the changes will be of a lasting, structural nature. This makes me wonder of the implications and possible benefits of long term consumption, which has not been studied yet as far as I have read?

Edited by Renegade, 23 May 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[megatron]

I want to bring forth a possibility: Those of us with lasting post-marijuana mental deficits may undergo tremendous benefit from NSI-189 use. I base this assessment off of the following article, stating that long-term cannabis users show noticeable reductions in hippocampal size:
http://www.scienceda...80602160845.htm
And the following study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/18519827

Now, for the reasons of being fair I must say that the jury is still (kind of) out on whether or not long-term cannabis use induces morphological changes. However, there is plenty of evidence (including the above study) that indicate that it does.

That said, a shrunken hippocampus due to long-term cannabis use would result in the symptoms of increased anxiety, lesser ability for recall, and lesser capacity for thought in general. If NSI-189 truly does promote an average of 20% hippocampal growth, that could potentially completely reverse long-term cannabis-induced morphological changes and their subsequent symptoms.

This would be fantastic! I know I'm currently still reeling from a time in my life (age 17) where I had been/was heavily smoking weed every day for about 2 years. Definitely caused me some lasting issues there, and my mind certainly isn't in the same place it was before. (I'm now 21)

Really looking forward to this synthesis being completed

Interesting. Similar to you - I was a heavy user for a number of years in my teens. I am part of the group buy so it will be interesting to compare our experiences.

These studies also make me more inclined to continue with my exercise routine of 30 mins cardio 5x per week, as physical exercise has been linked to growth in the hippocampus. This fact makes me consider that hippocampus growth is not quite as exotic as it is being pitched regarding NSI-189, however 20% would appear to be a huge amount of growth, which can not be achieved though any alternative intervention as far as I know.

It would seem the general consensus is that this molecule is to be taken for the short term and the changes will be of a lasting, structural nature. This makes me wonder of the implications and possible benefits of long term consumption, which has not been studied yet as far as I have read?

I hope you're not running intervals on 80% or more of your maximum pulse. More than three time a week is counterproductive and will result in over-training, and your progress will stagnate.

[MetaMind]

A major new discovery has been made in controling/repairing neurons or neuronal cicuits via "near IR-Laser Beam"-technic discovered by the University of Texas Arlington.
They found out that shining the axons with a near IR-Laser will change the growth factor/direction of it and therefore it is possible to form new circuits of neurons with the exact desired structure and size.

potential applications are:

• Building highly precise 3D neural circuits in-vitro as a model for future supercomputers using neuromorphic chips (or even using the neurons themselves in an artificially grown biological computer).
• Brain activity mapping, in combination with precison stimulation and imaging tools such as the fiber-optic, two-photon, optogenetic stimulator and label-free phase imaging developed by Mohanty.
• Repairing damaged neurons in the peripheral nervous system by rewiring around lesions (for patients with spinal-cord injuries, for example).
• Rewiring circuitry of the brain in the future, correcting for damaged or diseased neurons and neural circuits (the near-IR laser beam can penetrate deeply and non-invasively).

The neuroral circuitry can be augmented by ultrafast near-IR “laser scissors” for nanosurgery of undesired connections — silencing specific neurons or neuronal elements (axon, dendrite, spine) in the circuit.

exciting stuff dont you think :D
with this method it can be possible to create biochips/biological computers, and who knows maybe an approach to extend human consiousness with adding new neuronal circuits.


source:
http://www.kurzweila...-infrared-light

[ScienceGuy]

UPDATE:

I checked in again today with the lab to see how the custom synthesis is coming along

Here's their reply:

We are almost finished making this compound:

For direct comparison purposes here is NSI-189:


So, not very far off now!

Edited by ScienceGuy, 25 May 2013 - 05:52 PM.

[rikelme]

UPDATE:

I checked in again today with the lab to see how the custom synthesis is coming along

Here's their reply:

We are almost finished making this compound:

Yabadabadoo !

[therein]

UPDATE:

I checked in again today with the lab to see how the custom synthesis is coming along

Here's their reply:

We are almost finished making this compound:

For direct comparison purposes here is NSI-189:


So, not very far off now!

Very exciting stuff. Thanks for keeping us posted!

[DamnedOwl]

Anyone else read this?

Hippocampal neurogenesis linked to...forgetting!

[megatron]

Anyone else read this?

Hippocampal neurogenesis linked to...forgetting!

So, basically the article tells that we won't see any improvements during the neurogenesis, but memory and cognitive function will be improved when the neurogenesis is finished. That's...troubling news, as we don't know how long exactly the neurogenesis will continue after we've stopped taking NSI-189.

[rikelme]

So, basically the article tells that we won't see any improvements during the neurogenesis, but memory and cognitive function will be improved when the neurogenesis is finished. That's...troubling news, as we don't know how long exactly the neurogenesis will continue after we've stopped taking NSI-189.

Actually, they didn't say anything about improved cognitive function after neurogenesis is finished
More neurons doesn't necessarily mean better performanse. It might.

To conclude, by taking the NSI-189, we'll forget what we've learned in the past. However, we might re-learn it faster than we did it first time, and we probably won't be depressed doing it

Edited by rikelme, 25 May 2013 - 09:53 PM.

[Passion]

Anyone else read this?

Hippocampal neurogenesis linked to...forgetting!

So, basically the article tells that we won't see any improvements during the neurogenesis, but memory and cognitive function will be improved when the neurogenesis is finished. That's...troubling news, as we don't know how long exactly the neurogenesis will continue after we've stopped taking NSI-189.

No... the article suggests that the neurogenesis will actually lead to the destruction of existing long-term memories. I can see this as a strong positive for people with Major Depressive Disorder (for which the drug is originally intended) which often have memories they wish to forget, but a not-so-positive for people who have a pretty happy/decent childhood/past as is.

I wonder then, if dramatic increases in neurogenesis could lead to a loss of or shift in identity or personality... like being given fresh new brain-parts, void of information, to replace old parts, full of information. Even skills and acquired knowledge could be at question here. I'm definitely waiting for publicly released trial results after reading this.

Edited by Passion, 25 May 2013 - 09:57 PM.

[OpaqueMind]

Hold on a second there... The article says that the continual neurogenesis before the age of 4/5 disrupts the formation of new memories. We can't infer with certainty that the process destroys LTMs, since the children had stored none in the first place. Although it is a possibility that it could in individuals with LTMs already stored, this report indicates that they simply weren't laid down. Since such a high level of neurogenesis is unknown in healthy subjects, we cannot yet know the outcome. Waiting for the next report to out will do little to inform us, since a hallmark of MDD, and a potential cause of relapse, is an absolutely terrible autobiographical memory, hence the intended effect of hippocampal neurogenesis. Ive had it in the past and I literally remember nothing before the age of about 14, and not a whole lot since then either. So the subjects wont be reporting adverse effects on LTMs, since they won't have enough of them or they won't be concrete enough to notice their destruction.

[Passion]

In adult mice, they found that increasing neurogenesis after memory formation was enough to bring about forgetting.

I thought this said it all. I know we don't have access to the actual study and this could be a loose interpretation of data but it's still somewhat disconcerting.

[Metagene]

I wonder what this would mean for someone born moderately preterm and possibly developmently delayed? I'd trade a few crappy old memories for improved congnitive function any day.

Too bad it's not that simple. :/

[MetaMind]

for everyone wondering what exactly we are talking here when it comes to neurogenesis targeting the hippocampus... there is a great research paper: http://www.ecnp.eu/~...eview_paper.pdf

which give great insight into the function and potential treatment approaches based on "hippocampal athropy theory"

[MetaMind]

President and CEO of NeuralStem: Richard Garr recently gave a talk at "World Stem Cells Regenerative Medicine Congress 2013" about there projects/treatment options.