6219 replies to this topic

[PWAIN]

Has ANYONE else noticed this or anything like this? If this turns out to be a common effect, then I will be in the next group buy in a very big way...This alone would justify the price for me if it really is a common effect. I would expect it to be more noticable on older participants so may be worth indicating age range if reporting this effect.

I know a lot of people want to keep the results to themselves until later but this effect would be really worth knowing before a second group buy goes ahead and that could be quite soon.

In other news, I have discovered that I had depression. Had. Past tense. I am fresh, jokey, light-hearted - the day is no longer draped in seriousness, the skies no longer overcast... you catch my meaning. Funny thing is I hadn't even noticed, it had been this way for so long. I thought I was just a subdued character. Now my energies are free, my depressive inhibitions annihilated. This is all I will say up to this point on the effects - this has been consistent enough for me to believe beyond reasonable doubt that it is not placebo. Especially considering that the treatment of depression is what the drug was originally intended for. All I can say is MOVE OVER SSRIs you archaic brainfuckers...

[xks201]

LOL- well I say we get the second group buy going so we have a second batch sooner than later.
I'm happy to organize it over payitsquare or whatever - or have someone else do it with science guys blessing using his lab (since it appears to be a legit synthesis).

Otherwise we are going to be picking our noses for a couple weeks or months after your supply runs out.

[jly1986]

Dude I am sure Neurostem is loving the fact that they're getting a free human trial from this.

If that's so, why didn't the organizers of the group buy approach Neurostem to obtain NSI-189 directly from the rightful suppliers? If it is as you say, Neurostem would have jumped at the chance to donate or provide at cost the substance to Longecity members (and anyone else intersted) for its "free human trial."

Even as talk of future group buys commences, the clear intention is still to circumvent the legal source by going to suppliers in countries which have poor histories of abiding by international laws regarding intellectual property.

[xks201]

Dude I am sure Neurostem is loving the fact that they're getting a free human trial from this.

If that's so, why didn't the organizers of the group buy approach Neurostem to obtain NSI-189 directly from the rightful suppliers? If it is as you say, Neurostem would have jumped at the chance to donate or provide at cost the substance to Longecity members (and anyone else intersted) for its "free human trial."

Even as talk of future group buys commences, the clear intention is still to circumvent the legal source by going to suppliers in countries which have poor histories of abiding by international laws regarding intellectual property.

If you'd rather wait 10 years until the FDA approves this, and at that point be forced to have a dementia diagnosis to get the prescription which most likely will cost hundreds if not thousands of dollars a month, be my guest. Good luck qualifying for the prescription or paying for it if it ever does get approved for use in humans..

[empedocles]

I went at a slightly higher as they usually always increase the dose after stage 1 but perhaps it is a little to high, I had planned to cut it down after I began noticing something so will be going lower in future days to make it last a month. As for sleep, 7 hrs usually when Im not taking modafinil.

Should call it nasal mucosa administration as the word snorting somewhat tarnishes this experiment and associates us with druggies, I find this route offers the highest bio-availability and CNS penetration after looking at the literature of various other small lipid molecule drugs. Although it will get absorbed well from the stomach, the liver will metabolise a percentage of it before reaching systemic circulation. Sublingual would be the most sensible option.

I stand corrected, my apologies .

[therein]

I don't see why we should be extremely careful at mentioning our experimentation with this molecule. If Neurostem decides to pursue a lawsuit regarding this, we are all fucked anyway. This thread is clearly incriminating if what we are doing is a crime. Avoiding self-incrimination by using words such as "SWIM" or "my lab rat" won't help you at all. That's not how law works.

Know that if you were a part of this group buy, you're associated with this activity anyway and your word choices aren't going to provide you legal immunity, or will be the only thing that incriminates you.

That being said... yes, Neurostem holds a patent on this molecule however technically we aren't infringing anything as we are using this for experimentation. And even if this wasn't the case, it would be extremely unlikely for Neurostem to bring this to court as they are getting free publicity and a free human trial. It would again be extremely impractical for them to sue all of us as we all live on very different jurisdictions.

The Supreme Court gave pharmaceutical companies broad latitude yesterday to study and experiment with drugs covered by other companies' patents, a decision that may help speed the development of medical treatments.

The decision means drug companies can do much of the laboratory, animal and human testing needed to win approval of a drug even if the drug would infringe on the patent on another product. However, the new drug could not be sold until the patent on the other drug expired.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/14/business/14bizcourt.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[xks201]

There you have it. Nice find. No one here is attempting to profit off the drug so suing would be pretty pointless.

[Nattzor]

That being said... yes, Neurostem holds a patent on this molecule however technically we aren't infringing anything as we are using this for experimentation. And even if this wasn't the case, it would be extremely unlikely for Neurostem to bring this to court as they are getting free publicity and a free human trial. It would again be extremely impractical for them to sue all of us as we all live on very different jurisdictions.

Doubt this would hold in court, just as "I was just experimenting with drugs" wont make drug use legal.

[xks201]

Not all drugs are ILLEGAL in the USA. NSI hasn't even been categorized or been made illegal.

[therein]

That being said... yes, Neurostem holds a patent on this molecule however technically we aren't infringing anything as we are using this for experimentation. And even if this wasn't the case, it would be extremely unlikely for Neurostem to bring this to court as they are getting free publicity and a free human trial. It would again be extremely impractical for them to sue all of us as we all live on very different jurisdictions.

Doubt this would hold in court, just as "I was just experimenting with drugs" wont make drug use legal.

Patents aren't put in place to discourage or criminalize use, they are put in place to prevent commercial production without the permission of the patent holder. You're confusing scheduled compounds with patented compounds. This thread clearly mentions how we acquired the compound and who manufactured it. It is also worth mentioning that NSI-189 is not scheduled, or even covered by the federal analogue act.

Let's say Samsung infringes a patent that Apple is holding. Buying a Samsung Galaxy S3 isn't going to put you in jail. It will merely result in Samsung having to pay a hefty fine. Would you still rather say, just to be safe, "SWIM owns a Samsung Galaxy S3" on xda-developers.com?

Edited by therein, 11 August 2013 - 06:19 PM.

[sunshinefrost]

Can we drop the subject please ? Seriously, its depressing. Call it whatever you want, arginine, nsi-189, NZT-48 and test it on whatever suits you. Just please dont derail the subject.

[Nattzor]

That being said... yes, Neurostem holds a patent on this molecule however technically we aren't infringing anything as we are using this for experimentation. And even if this wasn't the case, it would be extremely unlikely for Neurostem to bring this to court as they are getting free publicity and a free human trial. It would again be extremely impractical for them to sue all of us as we all live on very different jurisdictions.

Doubt this would hold in court, just as "I was just experimenting with drugs" wont make drug use legal.

Patents aren't put in place to discourage or criminalize use, they are put in place to prevent commercial production without the permission of the patent holder. You're confusing scheduled compounds with patented compounds. This thread clearly mentions how we acquired the compound and who manufactured it. It is also worth mentioning that NSI-189 is not scheduled, or even covered by the federal analogue act.

Let's say Samsung infringes a patent that Apple is holding. Buying a Samsung Galaxy S3 isn't going to put you in jail. It will merely result in Samsung having to pay a hefty fine. Would you still rather say, just to be safe, "SWIM owns a Samsung Galaxy S3" on xda-developers.com?

Oh, didn't think that it wasn't scheduled (it would have been in Sweden, before it was released).

But then again, no one here needs to worry, nothing is going to happen.

[therein]

Can we drop the subject please ? Seriously, its depressing. Call it whatever you want, arginine, nsi-189, NZT-48 and test it on whatever suits you. Just please dont derail the subject.

I agree. I didn't mean to derail the subject, in fact, I was hoping to promote discussion regarding the substance.

It seemed people are too reluctant to post on the topic because of the possible legal consequences and I think it is better to clear the fog around the legality once and for all. Nobody is going to get in trouble for this. Please feel free to discuss about your experiences with this compound.

Edited by therein, 11 August 2013 - 06:29 PM.

[OpaqueMind]

I'm just waiting for more conclusive results my friend. A comprehensive account shall be forthcoming. And good idea to clear the fog. The arguments of the fear-mongers (for lack of a less inflammatory term) need to be rationalized against so that we can clear the air. Now the dust has settled we can continue with our observations.

[therein]

I was just having a conversation with my mother over the phone. She had been having some health problems (serious but nothing too serious) and she's frustrated with the side effects of the medication, not being able to drink coffee or smoke cigarettes etc.

What started out as a fight turned into an emotional conversation. She was so surprised to hear about my surprisingly positive attitude towards life that she said "who are you and what did you do to my son?". Now I don't know if this is NSI-189 affecting me but I felt more open than I could possibly be with her and with myself.

[PWAIN]

Therein, do you feel better in yourself? Do you feel more optimistic, positive about things?

[therein]

Therein, do you feel better in yourself? Do you feel more optimistic, positive about things?

Yes, that's basically how I am feeling. I feel more comfortable with myself, more optimistic about right now and more hopeful about the future. Colors aren't enhanced but music feels more voluminous and relevant. Leaving my room and walking around the city feels more significant than it normally does. I seem to be noticing small things such as the way that the light is hitting the carpet and this for no reason makes me feel better. I am appreciating the nature, the way that slightly cold breeze feels on my skin and just being, merely existing more than I usually do.

I think the best way to put it would be I feel better, more comfortable and more appreciative of small details. I feel good just for, being.

Edited by therein, 11 August 2013 - 11:31 PM.

[mait]

Have any of you also noticed some nootropic effects from taking NSI-189 in addition to anti-depressive action? Pre and post first dosing comparison in some standardized test would be amazing.

Edited by mait, 11 August 2013 - 11:25 PM.

[therein]

Have any of You noticed some nootropic effects from taking NSI-189 in addition to anti-depressive action? Pre and post first dosing comparison in some standardized test would be amazing.

While I have an exceptional long term memory, my short-term memory has always been poor. Unfortunately, I don't have a baseline for Dual N-Back but I have a baseline for digit span and some Lumosity exercises. I'll give them a try and report back.

I feel more in the moment, though. I think that might present nootropic benefits by itself. When I was copying a 12-digit numerical userID from one paper to another, I didn't have to keep going back and forth because I forgot a part of it. That's something significant for me but my short term memory tends to be better some days.

Another thing I notice is how silent everything is. My inner voice is more silent, and the outside world feels more silent and peaceful than usual.

On a side note, I am taking NSI-189 with Omega 3, Phosphatidyl-serine and L-Methylfolate (same function as folic acid but I can't process folic acid well due to an enzyme deficiency. Thanks 23andMe). I had been taking those supplements even before starting to take NSI-189 so while maybe increasing the efficacy of NSI-189, they are not responsible of these effects.

Edited by therein, 12 August 2013 - 12:08 AM.

[sunshinefrost]

These are really good reports so far... Nothing specific but for a 10 day trial this is looking good.

[PWAIN]

Therin, how old are you? Trying to work out if the anti depressive effect is age related.

[therein]

Therin, how old are you? Trying to work out if the anti depressive effect is age related.

I am 21 years old. I am diagnosed with ADHD and I self-diagnosed myself with mild social anxiety. As you probably know, these two are usually comorbid with depression or at least being prone to depression.

[meatsauce]

Lithium selectively increases neuronal differentiation of hippocampal neural progenitor cells http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/15056276
I know this is not a new discovery but this might be a good idea to combine with NSI-189. Thoughts?

[MizTen]

Mine arrived 4.5 days after SG shipped it. Pretty impressive considering the distance it had to cover. SG beats Amazon by a long shot!

Thanks again, ScienceGuy.

Irony of the arginine label, placebo to the max effect, or...
Arginine causes a very specific and unpleasant effect on me, which occured after the first dose, thankfully the ''arginine'' effect is now absent.

I am low dosing, about 40-60 mg per day, only had 2 doses so far. I am waiting to finish the last of my pre-measured noot combos, piracetam, suni, oxi, etc. before doing any dedicated logging of effects.

Then I'll take it with the supplements I've been taking which include 400 mg of centrophenoxine and 200 mg of idebenone.

As far as logging effects, I'm not doing stuff like Dual-n-back as that tends to do bad things to the healthy part of my hunter-gatherer mind.

My effect log goes like this, I've used it for a long time, usually once in the AM and once in the PM when I'm try to determine what's helping or harming:

Scaled from 0-6,

Mood
Energy
Focus
Internal Stress (perceived, also known as anxiety)
External Stressors (real life events that require some significant responsechange)
Productivity

So that's what I'll use to measure effects for ''arginine".

I will try not to wreck objectivity for others, at least not just yet, but I have a very, very strong correlation of effects thus far with another poster here. Seems pretty odd that only 2 small doses would cause any changes...yet so it seems.

Well, there goes the objectivity already, sorry if that cements the placebo effect onto this experiment.

I'm thinking that it affects more than the hippocampus, maybe prefrontal cortex.

This should be interesting.

[neopeon]

MizTen-- it wasn't clear from your post. Are you saying you had some unpleasant effects from your first dose of the sample?

[MizTen]

MizTen-- it wasn't clear from your post. Are you saying you had some unpleasant effects from your first dose of the sample?

Yes, but I do not think it was necessarily from the sample. It just happened to be very similar to adverse effects that I have experienced from arginine. Nothing dramatic or terrible and not likely to have been caused by the sample, probably just an ironic coincidence.

What has been happening (new and unusual) is very similar to positive reports from someone else on this thread.

Sorry if my wording was too cryptic.

[neopeon]

MizTen-- it wasn't clear from your post. Are you saying you had some unpleasant effects from your first dose of the sample?

Yes, but I do not think it was necessarily from the sample. It just happened to be very similar to adverse effects that I have experienced from arginine. Nothing dramatic or terrible and not likely to have been caused by the sample, probably just an ironic coincidence.

What has been happening (new and unusual) is very similar to positive reports from someone else on this thread.

Sorry if my wording was too cryptic.

Thanks for the update! Good luck!

[OpaqueMind]

Therin, how old are you? Trying to work out if the anti depressive effect is age related.

I am 21 years old. I am diagnosed with ADHD and I self-diagnosed myself with mild social anxiety. As you probably know, these two are usually comorbid with depression or at least being prone to depression.

I too am 21, so it so far seems that the anti-depressant effect is not ageist. Even if I don't get any nootropic effects from this, I really don't give a damn. Happiness, or non-sadness, is in itself quite a potent nootropic Therein, I'm glad you too have experienced these positive effects. I wonder how many people will realise that they were previously depressed, once they have taken this substance for a while? It is definitely anti-depressant and not pro-euphoriant, as the mood-shift is real but subtle, so it seems perhaps it is restoring function rather than going beyond what is 'normal'.

[therein]

I agree. It seems like it is definitely more of an antidepressant than a euphoriant. It is subtle but very noticeable. It definitely could be restorative.

It looks like it prevents crashes after stimulant use. It gave me borderline psychedelic insights and thought patterns when combined with Cannabis. No adverse reactions so far.

[Sholrak]

I get what you say OpaqueMind. However, it's unlikely to think you have lost near 20% size of hippocampus with 21 years old despite all the traumas, fears and experiences you can have had (just supposing about you...). Maybe some individuals will be able to counteract a congenital or pre-childhood/childhood size defficiency, while other will attack a loss of hippocampus size during last teenage age or adulthood. This should affect everyone in a different way.

Look at this interesting study

Maternal support in early childhood predicts larger hippocampal volumes at school age

• Joan L. Luby^a,¹,
  
• Deanna M. Barch^a,^b,^c,
  
• Andy Belden^a,
  
• Michael S. Gaffrey^a,
  
• Rebecca Tillman^a,
  
• Casey Babb^a,
  
• Tomoyuki Nishino^a,
  
• Hideo Suzuki^a, and
  
• Kelly N. Botteron^a,^c

Author Affiliations

• 
  Edited by Marcus E. Raichle, Washington University in St. Louis, St. Louis, MO, and approved January 4, 2012 (received for review November 1, 2011)

Abstract

Early maternal support has been shown to promote specific gene expression, neurogenesis, adaptive stress responses, and larger hippocampal volumes in developing animals. In humans, a relationship between psychosocial factors in early childhood and later amygdala volumes based on prospective data has been demonstrated, providing a key link between early experience and brain development. Although much retrospective data suggests a link between early psychosocial factors and hippocampal volumes in humans, to date there has been no prospective data to inform this potentially important public health issue. In a longitudinal study of depressed and healthy preschool children who underwent neuroimaging at school age, we investigated whether early maternal support predicted later hippocampal volumes. Maternal support observed in early childhood was strongly predictive of hippocampal volume measured at school age. The positive effect of maternal support on hippocampal volumes was greater in nondepressed children. These findings provide prospective evidence in humans of the positive effect of early supportive parenting on healthy hippocampal development, a brain region key to memory and stress modulation.

That's what I intend to talk about.