6219 replies to this topic

[foreseason]

Here is the reply from nutraction:

 

i Chris,

 

I hope this helps.

 

Thanks,

Jason

 

www.NutrAction.com

Email: mdnutraceuticals@gmail.com

Phone: 813-4822

 

So basically the provided me with absolutely no information regarding the authenticity of the NSI.

My Reply:

That does not help at all. Those are arbitrary numbers that say nothing about what the substance actually is. After tasting the product I am very suspicious due to it's completely benign taste. NSI-189 is well known to have a strong bitter taste. That is my personal experience and the experience of countless others.

Long story short you will have to do much better than that to ease my concerns. I am an active member of multiple forums where authenticity of your product is already being discussed. If my concerns are not alleviated to my satisfaction, I will expect a refund and be sharing this experience with anyone that will listen, including neuralstem.

Edited by foreseason, 24 June 2014 - 11:58 PM.

[jefferson]

Here is the reply from nutraction:

i Chris,

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Jason

www.NutrAction.com
Email: mdnutraceuticals@gmail.com
Phone: 813-482-7380

Item of Analysis NSI-189
Requirements
Results
Appearance
Off-white to white powder
Conforms
Loss on drying
≤1.0%
0.6%
Heavy metal
≤10ppm
Conforms
Water
≤0.5%
0.3%
Purity(HPLC)
≥99%
99.47%
Residue on ingnition
≤0.3%
0.05%
Conclusion
The product conforms to in House Standard
Packing
Pack in two layers plastic-bag.
Storage
Store in a well-closed place with constant low temperature and no direct sun light.
Shelf life
2 years when properly stored.

So basically the provided me with absolutely no information regarding the authenticity of the NSI.

My Reply:

That does not help at all. Those are arbitrary numbers that say nothing about what the substance actually is. After tasting the product I am very suspicious due to it's completely benign taste. NSI-189 is well known to have a strong bitter taste. That is my personal experience and the experience of countless others.

Long story short you will have to do much better than that to ease my concerns. I am an active member of multiple forums where authenticity of your product is already being discussed. If my concerns are not alleviated to my satisfaction, I will expect a refund and be sharing this experience with anyone that will listen, including neuralstem.

 

Why don't you ask them what the melting point for their product is? We already know the melting points for VLK and Nyles' NSI-189 (which match). Assuming their product is legit, you can use that melting point as a reference and compare others' NSI-189 melting point to it. 

[swolo]

Could the taste difference be due to phosphate vs freebase forms?

[swolo]

Does anyone have any ideas regarding Phase 1b trial dosing (presumably via ingested tablets or capsules) vs sublingually dosing of the pure powder? It seems like most of us have been assuming "40 mg" in the trial = 40 mg powder measured out, but couldn't there be significant differences in bioavailability with the different modes of administration?

[tolerant]

I am very new to these forums. I registered only 10 days ago. Since then 95% of my posts and private messages (and there's probably 100 of them put together) has been in this thread and with people in this thread. Today I wrote a few posts in the Coluracetam feedback thread. I would like to repost it here, so I could hopefully get responses from people I got to know (however superficially) and also because I assume the thread about NSI-189 is more geared towards people with mental issues than the thread about Coluracetam. So here's the relevant part of my post in the Coluracetam thread.

 

 

 

I am totally new to nootropics. I have previously experimented with Afobazole and Selank to no effect. I have never taken any racetams. My only reason for trying nootropics is to alleviate an agitated form of depression. Now the only study on Coluracetam suggested that it is somewhat beneficial in agitated form of depression, but not beneficial at all in other forms. Maybe someone can advise me if I should start with older racetams, like piracetam for my condition. And I have a question for people who have found Coluracetam or other racetam useful in alleviating depression/anxiety? Does it actually help "treat" depression/anxiety, and I'm talking real depression/anxiety, when you're not able to work or do anything productive, constantly suffer from racing/intrusive thoughts, etc. So if you take a racetam and find that the symptoms improve, can it lead to eventual remission, where you stop taking the racetams and continue to feel better? Or are racetams more like benzodiazepines, where the moment you stop you start to feel worse again?

 

I find it a bit hard to understand ScienceGuy's rating of 10/10 of Coluracetam as an anxiolytic. In the same post he mentions that he works 18-hour days and puts in shifts at crazy times of the day. Now you can't have an anxiety disorder and do that, can you? I understand that people suffer from mental issues differently. One person can be perfectly functional, have a a family, a job, etc. and then one day hang himself. Another person can be bedridden and in a constant state of mental anguish, unable to even watch television. You can say that they both have severe depression. But I just really want to know an answer to this: did people on these boards who glowingly say how a supplement alleviated their anxiety/depression generally have a pre-existing mental condition, at least requiring being treated under the care of a psychologist/psychiatrist and taking conventional psychoactive drugs? I am very new to these forums and judging from the very name of these forums and topics covered, it would appear to be aimed at people trying to push their brains and bodies beyond the usual limits. However, nearly every review of a nootropic includes references to depression and anxiety. If someone could clear up this confusion at least to some extent I would be very grateful.

.

Edited by tolerant, 25 June 2014 - 04:45 AM.

[VERITAS INCORRUPTUS]

Most who seem to post in the Mental Health and some who post in Brain Health forums suffer from mental health dysfunctions of a significant nature.  Obviously as one would expect this is more prevalent in mental health, but there is some overlap with agents such as neurogenics and otherwise as to improvement from a 'normal' state and repair from a sub-normal state.  Overall, it seems more are geared toward enhancement above a pre-existing state of mental/cognitive functionality, largely toward superior cognitive functionality, but as well, alleviation of what might be considered normal range mental health/wellness/functionality issues such as alleviation of normal anxiety, depressive-related tendencies/episodes or other less than optimal mood states is as well something many are attuned to.

[tolerant]

Thanks, that kind of explains it. I didn't know there was a separate Mental Health forum here.

[Nattzor]

OK, I'm confused, how did you order from tht.co since their web site is down?

 

THT was not always down, lol.

 

 

Does anyone have any ideas regarding Phase 1b trial dosing (presumably via ingested tablets or capsules) vs sublingually dosing of the pure powder? It seems like most of us have been assuming "40 mg" in the trial = 40 mg powder measured out, but couldn't there be significant differences in bioavailability with the different modes of administration?

 

40 mg = 40 mg of NSI-189, oral. There's no studies on bioavailability to my knowledge.

Edited by Nattzor, 25 June 2014 - 07:30 AM.

[ByAnyMeansNecessary]

Perhaps the Nutraction strain (which I ordered and have been taking since last friday) is different. Perhaps the stuff that people like me got was a base version, and not the phosphate form. for the most part, the taste isnt really all that bad...but the one thing that it does do is clump together hardcore. I remember reading in MizTens experience posts that she tried sublingual doses and found it to be near impossible for that very reason. SO. Theres that too. 

 

 

[SearchingForAnswers]

 

OK, I'm confused, how did you order from tht.co since their web site is down?

 

THT was not always down, lol.

 

I watched THT's site until they went down, never saw NSI-189 on it. If you have another way, please PM me!

 

Does anyone have any ideas regarding Phase 1b trial dosing (presumably via ingested tablets or capsules) vs sublingually dosing of the pure powder? It seems like most of us have been assuming "40 mg" in the trial = 40 mg powder measured out, but couldn't there be significant differences in bioavailability with the different modes of administration?

 

40 mg = 40 mg of NSI-189, oral. There's no studies on bioavailability to my knowledge.

 

 

So we don't know if a smaller dose would work sublingually?

 

 

 

 

[drg]

After tasting the product I am very suspicious due to it's completely benign taste. NSI-189 is well known to have a strong bitter taste.

It is generally a bad idea to admit to 'tasting' a research chemical to the supplier.

[Nattzor]

 

 

THT was not always down, lol.

 

I watched THT's site until they went down, never saw NSI-189 on it. If you have another way, please PM me!

 

 

So we don't know if a smaller dose would work sublingually?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, that's right. Went down just before launch. But some were in contact with him before that.

 

Nope, we do not know that. NSI-189 might have 100% oral bioavailablity, might also have 2%.

[foreseason]

It is generally a bad idea to admit to 'tasting' a research chemical to the supplier.

Why? Because they put some lame disclaimer on their websites? The sale has already been made and authenticity is the issue at hand.

[neuroatypicow]

 

After tasting the product I am very suspicious due to it's completely benign taste. NSI-189 is well known to have a strong bitter taste.

It is generally a bad idea to admit to 'tasting' a research chemical to the supplier.

 

 

it's also really counter-productive to have everyone continually dancing around the truths and realities - both us and the vendors. it's all a big farce and it's working against us. we need to stop talking in code and start being direct, open, and forceful with these stores.

They know full well their products are being consumed by humans - nay they're counting on it, and marketing to us in terms that imply consumption: antidepressant, cognitive enhancement, longevity, anxiolytic, neurogenesis.

how is the customer supposed to experience any of those things without consuming the product? admire it in its jar?

we need to pool our resources guys/gals: our collective knowledge, and our money, and vote with both of those attributes. we should demand more supportive documentation from these vendors.

if they're selling something they call 'NSI-189', then the onus is on them to be able and ready to furnish upon request substantive testing results that support their claim.

on the other hand, we need to determine the minimally effective-yet least expensive method of testing these chemicals, and be prepared to pony up some cash beyond the cost of our personal supplies to CONFIRM that what we bought is what we wanted, so we have at least assurance of composition, if not effectiveness.

---

as an aside, i have some of nutraction's nsi, and it is indeed fluffy an sticky, but it IS bitter, and did have a mild transient anaestetic effect on my sublingual mucosa.

[foreseason]

Received a reply from Nutraction:

 

Hi Christopher,

 

I'm sorry for this inconvenience.  I did not have the NSI-189 independently tested.  So, I cannot produce any independent, third party COA, or anything, like that.  You can return the NSI-189 to me for a full refund.  Aside from that, I honestly don't know what else I could do to remedy your concerns.  If you have any additional questions or concerns, please let me know.

 

Thanks,

Jason

 

 

This does not instill any confidence in me that what I purchased is actually NSI-189.  I will certainly be returning it for a refund. 

[foreseason]

OK, I'm confused, how did you order from tht.co since their web site is down?

 

I contacted them a couple months ago with interest in NSI-189 and they offered me a free sample.  However, they are currently not selling it but may again in the future

[neuroatypicow]

then i suggest that several of us contact nutraction and demand testing, and when tht reopens for business in july, we immediately all contact them and make it plain that THEY need to not sell this until and unless THEY can provide its assay results. this isn't some herbal supplement or racetam we're investing in, this is a psychoactive neurotrophic peptide with far more potential, and much higher stakes, so the standard of proof needs to be higher and the responsibility borne by these stores is higher to confirm that the crap they themselves bought in cheap bulk from a foreign lab is authentic. it's only good business.

[drg]

it's also really counter-productive to have everyone continually dancing around the truths and realities - both us and the vendors. it's all a big farce and it's working against us. we need to stop talking in code and start being direct, open, and forceful with these stores.

They know full well their products are being consumed by humans - nay they're counting on it, and marketing to us in terms that imply consumption: antidepressant, cognitive enhancement, longevity, anxiolytic, neurogenesis.

 It is a legal grey area and any company research chemical supplier knowing that the chemical is being consumed by a person cannot legally sell to them. It is a big farce and they all know they are being consumed but it is reality.

[neuroatypicow]

 

it's also really counter-productive to have everyone continually dancing around the truths and realities - both us and the vendors. it's all a big farce and it's working against us. we need to stop talking in code and start being direct, open, and forceful with these stores.

They know full well their products are being consumed by humans - nay they're counting on it, and marketing to us in terms that imply consumption: antidepressant, cognitive enhancement, longevity, anxiolytic, neurogenesis.

 It is a legal grey area and any company research chemical supplier knowing that the chemical is being consumed by a person cannot legally sell to them. It is a big farce and they all know they are being consumed but it is reality.

 

 

yes but these AREN'T research chemical suppliers, like Sigma or Indofine. These are tiny internet boutique substance vendors, only a web site and a shipping warehouse away from a garage business. if they can't legally sell to anyone they know plans on consuming it, they either/both shouldn't offer it for sale or should stop marketing it based on its claims of medically active benefits - the only way to achieving such is via ingestion.

if we can't stop this merry-go-round of uncertainty, we should just all go in on a new conventional group buy, with independent 3rd-party analysis baked into it from the start even before we seek out the synthesis lab or collect any monies.
 

[VP.]

     From yesterdays CINP conference. Can anyone of the smart people on these boards explain 4,5,6 & 7?

Here is a picture of the HF alpha waves slide they provided  https://twitter.com/...src=typd&q=$CUR

[Nattzor]

http://investor.neur...essive-Disorder

[foreseason]

I didn't have time to take a long look at the H-NMR spectra images that were up on Transhuman Technologies website, but I as I recall they were just .jpeg images with a fancy background and no time, date, or spectrometer name which was very suspicious. There are ways to fake it (e.g., DOSY NMR). If anyone has the spectra images saved that were up on the website, please upload them here.

 

 

A typical spectra will usually have something like this and as I recall THT had nothing resembling this:

 

NAME NSN-2203

EXPNO 1

PROCNO 1

Date_ 20140408

Time 16.04

INSTRUM spect

PROBHD 5 mm PABBO BB-

PULPROG zg30

TD 65536

SOLVENT CDCl3

NS 16

DS 2

SWH 8223.685 Hz

FIDRES 0.125483 Hz

AQ 3.9846387 sec

RG 40.3

DW 60.800 usec

DE 6.50 usec

TE 296.0 K

D1 1.00000000 sec

TD0 1

 

 

 

Here's what they had to say about this:

....I can assure you that we'd never forge test results.  I find 
the very idea unimaginable.

....if you don't trust the lab results on the page, then I 
don't know what to tell you.  In general, I cannot think of anything 
more I can post on the website.  If you're worried about image 
manipulation, surely you must be aware that there are forensic tools 
that can detect manipulated and doctored images.  (See: The STAP scandal 
and the fallout that followed, driven largely by Japanese bloggers who 
detected lots of doctored images.)

[focus83]

http://investor.neur...essive-Disorder

 

And finally the stock rises! Seems like most investors only read the "Investors" section of Neuralstem's website.

[neuroatypicow]

so let's sum up:

a) all of these vendors are stocking psychoactive chemicals with claims of medically active benefits.

b) their entire business and marketing and site design model centers around being boutique proprietors of exotic nootropic compounds to humans looking for symptom alleviation, cognitive enhancement, and life and health extension.

c) none of these vendors are sure themselves that what they bought from their supplier labs is authentic.

d) whatever supportive documentation of analysis they do have is inadequate, or incomplete, or they themselves do not know what they're looking at even if it were.

e) none of the vendors have performed their own analysis on the compounds they are selling.

f) despite that, they claim their products are authentic, and ask us to take their word for it, but don't give us anything to work with, and in fact have no way to prove even to themselves that the products they are selling are authentic

g) but they will sell them anyway with a ridiculous disclaimer that their products, which were all designed and developed for human consumption, are not actually for human consumption.

h) the products vary between vendors in appearance, color, consistency, and flavor, leading to doubt as to the authenticity of one or all vendors' examples of the same product.

because of the compounding effects of points C-H, the situation is a clusterfvck of suspicion, fear, uncertainty and doubt.

have i missed anything?

what can we do about it?

what can they do about it?

 

Edited by neuroatypicow, 25 June 2014 - 07:12 PM.

[ZHMike]

Too bad LC cant test this stuff, i think a descent mass spec costs like 20k, it would end all this drama though..

[PWAIN]

neuroatypicow, why are you getting your knickers in such a twist? Just ask about testing before ordering if that is important to you. If you are still not sure then pay for testing yourself.
As for selling as research chemicals - what do you really care? This is how these outfits try to cover their arses. You're not going to get any guarantee with this sort of thing - best guarantee is reputation.
Anyway if it really bothers you, you can always set up your own business and test everything and sell as pharma grade and hope like hell that the fda doesn't come after you.

[foreseason]

neuroatypicow, why are you getting your knickers in such a twist? Just ask about testing before ordering if that is important to you. If you are still not sure then pay for testing yourself.
As for selling as research chemicals - what do you really care? This is how these outfits try to cover their arses. You're not going to get any guarantee with this sort of thing - best guarantee is reputation.
Anyway if it really bothers you, you can always set up your own business and test everything and sell as pharma grade and hope like hell that the fda doesn't come after you.

 

I agree with most of what you said.  

 

However, when I purchase a product in any business transaction, I expect to receive what is advertised.  I believe this is a reasonable expectation.  I understand that there are times where I will be screwed over.  That does not mean I will simply roll over and say "oh well."  

 

None of these companies are selling "alleged NSI-189"  If that was the case, then it would be up to me to decide if it was worth the risk.  They are selling NSI-189 and I expect to receive NSI-189.  If I don't, I will certainly do what I can to be reimbursed and spread the word about their shoddy business tactics.   That is how those reputations are established. 

[PWAIN]

In fairness they were quite open when you enquired about testing and offered you a FULL REFUND. Can't see how much more they can do. They are likely a very small outfit and cost of testing would probably make it too expensive and uncompetative. Perhaps they are using a supplier that they feel they can trust (Ceretropics old stock?). That doesn't mean that you have to trust them, just that they feel they are selling something legit. It's not a perfect situation but then again, considering what is being sold, a few risks are worth it. Hopefully with more competition, the situation may improve.

 

By all means, catch them out if you can but without testing, your accusations carry as much weight as their claims of it being what they say it is.

[FW900]

 

I didn't have time to take a long look at the H-NMR spectra images that were up on Transhuman Technologies website, but I as I recall they were just .jpeg images with a fancy background and no time, date, or spectrometer name which was very suspicious. There are ways to fake it (e.g., DOSY NMR). If anyone has the spectra images saved that were up on the website, please upload them here.

 

 

A typical spectra will usually have something like this and as I recall THT had nothing resembling this:

 

NAME NSN-2203

EXPNO 1

PROCNO 1

Date_ 20140408

Time 16.04

INSTRUM spect

PROBHD 5 mm PABBO BB-

PULPROG zg30

TD 65536

SOLVENT CDCl3

NS 16

DS 2

SWH 8223.685 Hz

FIDRES 0.125483 Hz

AQ 3.9846387 sec

RG 40.3

DW 60.800 usec

DE 6.50 usec

TE 296.0 K

D1 1.00000000 sec

TD0 1

 

 

 

Here's what they had to say about this:

....I can assure you that we'd never forge test results.  I find 
the very idea unimaginable.

....if you don't trust the lab results on the page, then I 
don't know what to tell you.  In general, I cannot think of anything 
more I can post on the website.  If you're worried about image 
manipulation, surely you must be aware that there are forensic tools 
that can detect manipulated and doctored images.  (See: The STAP scandal 
and the fallout that followed, driven largely by Japanese bloggers who 
detected lots of doctored images.)

 

Thanks for posting this. Perhaps they used a spectrometer from their work or university and edited out this information. I'm eagerly awaiting the moment they decide to reopen and post their H-NMR spectra once again.

[Gorthaur]

so let's sum up:

a) all of these vendors are stocking psychoactive chemicals with claims of medically active benefits.

b) their entire business and marketing and site design model centers around being boutique proprietors of exotic nootropic compounds to humans looking for symptom alleviation, cognitive enhancement, and life and health extension.

c) none of these vendors are sure themselves that what they bought from their supplier labs is authentic.

d) whatever supportive documentation of analysis they do have is inadequate, or incomplete, or they themselves do not know what they're looking at even if it were.

e) none of the vendors have performed their own analysis on the compounds they are selling.

f) despite that, they claim their products are authentic, and ask us to take their word for it, but don't give us anything to work with, and in fact have no way to prove even to themselves that the products they are selling are authentic

g) but they will sell them anyway with a ridiculous disclaimer that their products, which were all designed and developed for human consumption, are not actually for human consumption.

h) the products vary between vendors in appearance, color, consistency, and flavor, leading to doubt as to the authenticity of one or all vendors' examples of the same product.

because of the compounding effects of points C-H, the situation is a clusterfvck of suspicion, fear, uncertainty and doubt.

have i missed anything?

what can we do about it?

what can they do about it?

 

 

No one in this thread has presented any hard evidence that any of these suppliers are shipping out fake NSI-189. It's almost unheard of for any nootropics vendor to ship out fake products, since they will quickly be blacklisted, and the same goes for the supplier labs. If you need multiple independent analyses to satisfy your doubts, wait for FDA approval (if it ever comes), and buy this compound from a pharmacy. All research chemical vendors label their products "not for human consumption" - that's just a part of being in the grey market, and that's how it's always been.