6219 replies to this topic

[Tomwenn]

I laughed at my edit haha I'm so retarded :')) You're right you're right, when my anhedonia set in it took me something like two months to realize something was wrong with me... but probably also because of the memory issues that came with it. Then I thought I had a personality disorder like sociopathy or narcissism for quite some time and read many articles trying to diagnose myself. By the way... it's mind blowing for me that Donald Trump who is a clinical narcissist is the president of the US. It's just so obvious, how could people elect someone that's mentally ill...  Frustrates me, just shows how unreliable human kind is. Anyway off topic

 

Still curious of why it took him 8years to get on here, would like to know his story

This is only one website on the internet, this is not the first time I have researched my disorder. I don't live with anhendonia, it is something different, as I feel no emotions whatsoever, including depression. It happened overnight, after a bout of food poisoning, celebrating NYE in Berlin, 2008/09. I had gone to bed, and woke up with nothing in my head. After a lifetime of ADHD, BPD, severe anxiety, paranoia, etc, etc, it was a huge difference. I was able to communicate with people, talk in groups, not get offended at the slightest thing, it was amazing. But I realised, after a few short relationships, that I couldn't feel anything. Having been extremely emotional, for all of my life previously, this was very strange. 

 

Anyway, to present day, I am unable to have meaningful relationships, my friends or family don't mean anything to me. I am able to function, work, study, but I don't care about any of it. It's been nine years, and I only stay alive so as to not upset my family.

 

I have had plenty of different diagnosis, and have been put on various anti-depressants (citalopram, prozac), anti-psychotics (aripiprazole, quetiapine), and self medicated (tianeptine, LSD, mushrooms). My diagnosis have ranged from "just going through a stage in your life", to "BPD with disassociation", to "psychotic anxiety". Every doctor tells me something different, and trying to get referrals to anywhere is near impossible (NHS funding in the UK for mental health is awful).

 

No drugs tend to have any effect, be it good or bad, and I don't seem to get any side effects from medication. Mushrooms and LSD let me laugh like I used to, MDMA makes my head fuzzy (but without the euphoria), and excess of alcohol leads to blackouts, where I appear emotional, and tend to be an absolute bastard (with no memory of this period).

 

Anyway, I have been looking for ways to treat myself for many years, and even went to university to study the brain, in the hope of answers. So far, I have constantly hit a brick wall, so I've stopped trying, sometimes for years at a time.

 

I haven't encountered anyone who's emotions have returned, after such a long period of time as mine, but all I can do is continue searching...

[Deaden]

 

I laughed at my edit haha I'm so retarded :')) You're right you're right, when my anhedonia set in it took me something like two months to realize something was wrong with me... but probably also because of the memory issues that came with it. Then I thought I had a personality disorder like sociopathy or narcissism for quite some time and read many articles trying to diagnose myself. By the way... it's mind blowing for me that Donald Trump who is a clinical narcissist is the president of the US. It's just so obvious, how could people elect someone that's mentally ill...  Frustrates me, just shows how unreliable human kind is. Anyway off topic

 

Still curious of why it took him 8years to get on here, would like to know his story

This is only one website on the internet, this is not the first time I have researched my disorder. I don't live with anhendonia, it is something different, as I feel no emotions whatsoever, including depression. It happened overnight, after a bout of food poisoning, celebrating NYE in Berlin, 2008/09. I had gone to bed, and woke up with nothing in my head. After a lifetime of ADHD, BPD, severe anxiety, paranoia, etc, etc, it was a huge difference. I was able to communicate with people, talk in groups, not get offended at the slightest thing, it was amazing. But I realised, after a few short relationships, that I couldn't feel anything. Having been extremely emotional, for all of my life previously, this was very strange. 

 

Anyway, to present day, I am unable to have meaningful relationships, my friends or family don't mean anything to me. I am able to function, work, study, but I don't care about any of it. It's been nine years, and I only stay alive so as to not upset my family.

 

I have had plenty of different diagnosis, and have been put on various anti-depressants (citalopram, prozac), anti-psychotics (aripiprazole, quetiapine), and self medicated (tianeptine, LSD, mushrooms). My diagnosis have ranged from "just going through a stage in your life", to "BPD with disassociation", to "psychotic anxiety". Every doctor tells me something different, and trying to get referrals to anywhere is near impossible (NHS funding in the UK for mental health is awful).

 

No drugs tend to have any effect, be it good or bad, and I don't seem to get any side effects from medication. Mushrooms and LSD let me laugh like I used to, MDMA makes my head fuzzy (but without the euphoria), and excess of alcohol leads to blackouts, where I appear emotional, and tend to be an absolute bastard (with no memory of this period).

 

Anyway, I have been looking for ways to treat myself for many years, and even went to university to study the brain, in the hope of answers. So far, I have constantly hit a brick wall, so I've stopped trying, sometimes for years at a time.

 

I haven't encountered anyone who's emotions have returned, after such a long period of time as mine, but all I can do is continue searching...

 

Yes yes, it's interesting how anhedonia is labeled as depression, yet it gets you rid of any depressed feeling and anxiety. Well... you can still feel like s*** but not "depressed" It turns you into a social god, when you feel like socializing. I had a bit of anxiety before my anhedonia set in (not so much) and now it's been months since I've felt any of it. Anyway, sorry but there was better meds you could have tried to get out of your anhedonia. Except lsd and mushrooms I don't like your choices... no offense. What I know is some people do recover from anhedonia, at least partially but it's true I wonder if the longer you are anhedonic the harder it is to get back your emotions. Has it gone worse over time? Would you get effects from coffee/cigarettes? Do you still do now? If I was you, I'd try heavier drugs than SSRIs alone and If it doesn't do it for you, just skip directly to Deep brain stimulation. If you can prove you've been like this for so long your insurance might cover it. It could cure you, there's some risk I guess but they're pretty low compared to the huge life saving effect you might get from it. Gl

 

Guys guys stop down voting my comments it hurts my feelings, oh wait... 

Edited by Deaden, 31 August 2017 - 03:38 PM.

[Tomwenn]

 

 

I laughed at my edit haha I'm so retarded :')) You're right you're right, when my anhedonia set in it took me something like two months to realize something was wrong with me... but probably also because of the memory issues that came with it. Then I thought I had a personality disorder like sociopathy or narcissism for quite some time and read many articles trying to diagnose myself. By the way... it's mind blowing for me that Donald Trump who is a clinical narcissist is the president of the US. It's just so obvious, how could people elect someone that's mentally ill...  Frustrates me, just shows how unreliable human kind is. Anyway off topic

 

Still curious of why it took him 8years to get on here, would like to know his story

This is only one website on the internet, this is not the first time I have researched my disorder. I don't live with anhendonia, it is something different, as I feel no emotions whatsoever, including depression. It happened overnight, after a bout of food poisoning, celebrating NYE in Berlin, 2008/09. I had gone to bed, and woke up with nothing in my head. After a lifetime of ADHD, BPD, severe anxiety, paranoia, etc, etc, it was a huge difference. I was able to communicate with people, talk in groups, not get offended at the slightest thing, it was amazing. But I realised, after a few short relationships, that I couldn't feel anything. Having been extremely emotional, for all of my life previously, this was very strange. 

 

Anyway, to present day, I am unable to have meaningful relationships, my friends or family don't mean anything to me. I am able to function, work, study, but I don't care about any of it. It's been nine years, and I only stay alive so as to not upset my family.

 

I have had plenty of different diagnosis, and have been put on various anti-depressants (citalopram, prozac), anti-psychotics (aripiprazole, quetiapine), and self medicated (tianeptine, LSD, mushrooms). My diagnosis have ranged from "just going through a stage in your life", to "BPD with disassociation", to "psychotic anxiety". Every doctor tells me something different, and trying to get referrals to anywhere is near impossible (NHS funding in the UK for mental health is awful).

 

No drugs tend to have any effect, be it good or bad, and I don't seem to get any side effects from medication. Mushrooms and LSD let me laugh like I used to, MDMA makes my head fuzzy (but without the euphoria), and excess of alcohol leads to blackouts, where I appear emotional, and tend to be an absolute bastard (with no memory of this period).

 

Anyway, I have been looking for ways to treat myself for many years, and even went to university to study the brain, in the hope of answers. So far, I have constantly hit a brick wall, so I've stopped trying, sometimes for years at a time.

 

I haven't encountered anyone who's emotions have returned, after such a long period of time as mine, but all I can do is continue searching...

 

Yes yes, it's interesting how anhedonia is labeled as depression, yet it gets you rid of any depressed feeling and anxiety. Well... you can still feel like s*** but not "depressed" It turns you into a social god, when you feel like socializing. I had a bit of anxiety before my anhedonia set in (not so much) and now it's been months since I've felt any of it. Anyway, sorry but there was better meds you could have tried to get out of your anhedonia. Except lsd and mushrooms I don't like your choices... no offense. What I know is some people do recover from anhedonia, at least partially but it's true I wonder if the longer you are anhedonic the harder it is to get back your emotions. Has it gone worse over time? Would you get effects from coffee/cigarettes? Do you still do now? If I was you, I'd try heavier drugs than SSRIs alone and If it doesn't do it for you, just skip directly to Deep brain stimulation. If you can prove you've been like this for so long your insurance might cover it. It could cure you, there's some risk I guess but they're pretty low compared to the huge life saving effect you might get from it. Gl

 

Guys guys stop down voting my comments it hurts my feelings, oh wait... 

 

Anhedonia is the inability to feel pleasure, but you can still feel depression. Otherwise, it is not anhedonia. Sufferers of anhedonia, still feel depressed, and feelings of sadness.

There weren't "better meds", as these were prescribed meds, which were the only drugs the doctors were willing to prescribe me, for the conditions they had diagnosed me with. Citalpram for the "depression", and anti-psychotics for the "psychotic anxiety".

 

It has got no worse, or no better. I felt nothing on day one, and I continue to feel nothing today.

 

I get nothing from cigarettes or gambling (both previously addicted to), and coffee just makes me feel irritable.

 

We don't have insurance here, we have a National Health Service, but I have considered DBS for some time, unfortunately I need to have a diagnosis of "treatment resistant depression", before anyone will go ahead with it, or at the very least, work out what is wrong with me. 

[jaiho]

 

 

Anyway, I have been looking for ways to treat myself for many years, and even went to university to study the brain, in the hope of answers. So far, I have constantly hit a brick wall, so I've stopped trying, sometimes for years at a time.

 

 

It sounds like your case is very serious & medication resistant.

I'd be surprised if NSI-189 helped you, but i have heard of people recovering on it after trying many medications.

 

Have you been on MAOIs + augments? ECT? DBS is also an option.

 

 

 

Sufferers of anhedonia, still feel depressed, and feelings of sadness.

 

 

Not true, if your anhedonia is serious enough, you can no longer feel sadness nor depression. Just pure nothingness.

Edited by jaiho, 31 August 2017 - 04:37 PM.

[Deaden]

Hmmm I disagree, with anhedonia you can't feel sadness at all you lost yourself here. If you can feel sadness then you're just severely depressed, which makes it rare for you to feel pleasure from natural events, but if the stimulus is intense enough you should. A depressed mother looking at her new born baby will feel a human emotion. An anhedonic mother won't, even forcing herself...I'd imagine after so many years in your state you would have a diagnosis of treatment resistant depression. Well I guess you can take Jahio's recommendations and try an MAOI + Nortriptyline or an SSRI + NTP. Also adding NSI-189 to those, should do something for you.

 

Edit: Aaah he beat me to it!

Edited by Deaden, 31 August 2017 - 04:42 PM.

[Tomwenn]

 

 

 

Anyway, I have been looking for ways to treat myself for many years, and even went to university to study the brain, in the hope of answers. So far, I have constantly hit a brick wall, so I've stopped trying, sometimes for years at a time.

 

 

It sounds like your case is very serious & medication resistant.

I'd be surprised if NSI-189 helped you, but i have heard of people recovering on it after trying many medications.

 

Have you been on MAOIs + augments? ECT? DBS is also an option.

 

 

 

Sufferers of anhedonia, still feel depressed, and feelings of sadness.

 

 

Not true, if your anhedonia is serious enough, you can no longer feel sadness nor depression. Just pure nothingness.

 

Hmm, I will look into MAOIs + augments, and possibly NSI-189 if I have no luck. I just don't want to step into the world of NSI-189 without trying all other options first. It is really difficult trying to discuss this matter, as my diagnosis is psychotic anxiety, and they won't discuss treating anything else. Thanks both of you for your input.

[Twindaddy37]

 

 

 

 

Anyway, I have been looking for ways to treat myself for many years, and even went to university to study the brain, in the hope of answers. So far, I have constantly hit a brick wall, so I've stopped trying, sometimes for years at a time.

 

 

It sounds like your case is very serious & medication resistant.

I'd be surprised if NSI-189 helped you, but i have heard of people recovering on it after trying many medications.

 

Have you been on MAOIs + augments? ECT? DBS is also an option.

 

 

 

Sufferers of anhedonia, still feel depressed, and feelings of sadness.

 

 

Not true, if your anhedonia is serious enough, you can no longer feel sadness nor depression. Just pure nothingness.

 

Hmm, I will look into MAOIs + augments, and possibly NSI-189 if I have no luck. I just don't want to step into the world of NSI-189 without trying all other options first. It is really difficult trying to discuss this matter, as my diagnosis is psychotic anxiety, and they won't discuss treating anything else. Thanks both of you for your input.

 

 

In your case, after years of blunted emotions, i would look beyond pills. Check out BPC-157, an injectable or oral peptide that can help repair your neurotransmitter systems. Maybe try running a 4 week course of that. 

[greyfox]

Has anyone combined Agmatine with NSI-189...? Curious whether it would be a positive experience overall or 

exacerbate the common anxiety side-effect.

 

Little update for those who are curious: I'm on 60mg of 'Nardil'/Phenelzine daily, and the past 3 days I had been experimenting with NSI-189 usage for the first time ever, 20mg a day, Phosphate, taken in the morning.

Sadly, I am not continuing to use NSI-189 as of today, as I became extremely anxiety-ridden & socially avoidant/phobic. 

 

Not that NSI-189 was without it's benefits; in a strangely hard to describe way, it DID improve my mood + outlook. I somewhat agree with people who say that there is a vague feeling to NSI-189 reminiscant of microdosing with psychedelics... would be curious to find out if there is some identical action that NSI-189 and microdosed psychedelics share in regards to perhaps aldosterone or something.

 

Also, it did seem that my cognition was vastly improved as well, but I simply cannot chose improved cognitive functioning and somewhat-noticeable mood elevation when it comes with the baggage of intense social fear.

I even tried using Kratom to mitigate these anxious feelings yesterday, but it didn't do very much to help. Oddly, I feel that NSI-189 seemed to actually block much of the mood-elevating properties of Kratom as well as energizing effect.

 

I might come back to NSI-189 at some point if I can figure out how to reliably eliminate the social anxiousness/general overall increase in anxiety through co-administration of Noopept or similar. Need to do more digging into the mechanisms behind NSI-189 and try to understand how it works (somewhat)

Edited by greyfox, 01 September 2017 - 01:29 PM.

[sentics]

there are a lot of ways to counter the increased anxiety that comes with taking nsi. natural ones i've had some success with: Relora (involves the 5ht1a receptor), L-Tyrosine (increases Noradrenaline) or L-Theanine.

 

a lot of people in this thread reported successfully using pregabaline or tianeptine to mitigate nsi-induced anxiety.

Edited by sentics, 01 September 2017 - 02:11 PM.

[Mind_Paralysis]

there are a lot of ways to counter the increased anxiety that comes with taking nsi. natural ones i've had some success with: Relora (involves the 5ht1a receptor), L-Tyrosine (increases Noradrenaline) or L-Theanine.

 

a lot of people in this thread reported successfully using pregabalin or tianeptine to mitigate nsi-induced anxiety.

 

It should be noted, that there is recent proof that one of the effects of Pregabalin, much like closely related compound Gabapentin, is that they IMPEDE NEUROGENESIS, as part of their general impairment of neural signalling and activity.

As such, it's probably not the best anxiolytic to combine with NSI-189, for DAILY use - using during the night might be more beneficial, at least it was to me.

There's of course also the quite bothersome side-effect that Pregabalin turns you into an absolute IMBECILE! : O Gabapentin isn't lovably called "MORONtin"  for nothing, friend! Some whom are using NSI-189 for the effects of cognition, would obviously be unable to use Pregabalin in that case.

 

I'd more recommend an SSRI actually, or Memantine, that seems to be two good options which dampen anxiety very, very powerfully, without impeding the positives of NSI-189.

 

It's true though that some experience relief from the anxiety with Tianeptine or Noopept - I personally did not experience much of a relief though... NMDA-antagonism from high-dose Magnesium-L-Threonate did far more than either of those two. Tianeptine was fairly synergistic for the antidepressant effects though, should be noted.

[greyfox]

there are a lot of ways to counter the increased anxiety that comes with taking nsi. natural ones i've had some success with: Relora (involves the 5ht1a receptor), L-Tyrosine (increases Noradrenaline) or L-Theanine.

a lot of people in this thread reported successfully using pregabalin or tianeptine to mitigate nsi-induced anxiety.

It should be noted, that there is recent proof that one of the effects of Pregabalin, much like closely related compound Gabapentin, is that they IMPEDE NEUROGENESIS, as part of their general impairment of neural signalling and activity.
As such, it's probably not the best anxiolytic to combine with NSI-189, for DAILY use - using during the night might be more beneficial, at least it was to me.
There's of course also the quite bothersome side-effect that Pregabalin turns you into an absolute IMBECILE! : O Gabapentin isn't lovably called "MORONtin" for nothing, friend! Some whom are using NSI-189 for the effects of cognition, would obviously be unable to use Pregabalin in that case.

I'd more recommend an SSRI actually, or Memantine, that seems to be two good options which dampen anxiety very, very powerfully, without impeding the positives of NSI-189.

It's true though that some experience relief from the anxiety with Tianeptine or Noopept - I personally did not experience much of a relief though... NMDA-antagonism from high-dose Magnesium-L-Threonate did far more than either of those two. Tianeptine was fairly synergistic for the antidepressant effects though, should be noted.

Stinkorninjor! :D you're one of my favorite Longecity posters lol

Anyways; thank you for the elaborate information on combinations with NSI-189.

Since I've got your attention here in the thread already: Do you have any recommendations on how I could best taper off and completely quit Nardil without losing my mind at work in the process?

From my research, it seems that Nardil's primary effects are actually through 1) Catecholamine increase & 2) re-sensitization of glucocorticoid system/receptors... I'm wondering what else out there nootropics-wise or supplementally would work in similar fashion? I've read that Atypical depression sufferers in particular like me are the ones who benefit the most from increased levels of glucocorticoids and/or increased receptor sensitivity for some reason. I think there must be some relevance to positively increasing dopaminergic activity...? :P

[Mind_Paralysis]

 

 

there are a lot of ways to counter the increased anxiety that comes with taking nsi. natural ones i've had some success with: Relora (involves the 5ht1a receptor), L-Tyrosine (increases Noradrenaline) or L-Theanine.

a lot of people in this thread reported successfully using pregabalin or tianeptine to mitigate nsi-induced anxiety.

It should be noted, that there is recent proof that one of the effects of Pregabalin, much like closely related compound Gabapentin, is that they IMPEDE NEUROGENESIS, as part of their general impairment of neural signalling and activity.
As such, it's probably not the best anxiolytic to combine with NSI-189, for DAILY use - using during the night might be more beneficial, at least it was to me.
There's of course also the quite bothersome side-effect that Pregabalin turns you into an absolute IMBECILE! : O Gabapentin isn't lovably called "MORONtin" for nothing, friend! Some whom are using NSI-189 for the effects of cognition, would obviously be unable to use Pregabalin in that case.

I'd more recommend an SSRI actually, or Memantine, that seems to be two good options which dampen anxiety very, very powerfully, without impeding the positives of NSI-189.

It's true though that some experience relief from the anxiety with Tianeptine or Noopept - I personally did not experience much of a relief though... NMDA-antagonism from high-dose Magnesium-L-Threonate did far more than either of those two. Tianeptine was fairly synergistic for the antidepressant effects though, should be noted.

Stinkorninjor! :D you're one of my favorite Longecity posters lol

Anyways; thank you for the elaborate information on combinations with NSI-189.

Since I've got your attention here in the thread already: Do you have any recommendations on how I could best taper off and completely quit Nardil without losing my mind at work in the process?

From my research, it seems that Nardil's primary effects are actually through 1) Catecholamine increase & 2) re-sensitization of glucocorticoid system/receptors... I'm wondering what else out there nootropics-wise or supplementally would work in similar fashion? I've read that Atypical depression sufferers in particular like me are the ones who benefit the most from increased levels of glucocorticoids and/or increased receptor sensitivity for some reason. I think there must be some relevance to positively increasing dopaminergic activity...? :P

 

 

Lol! Well, here's the sign that I've been posting too much...! xD I've turned into one of the regulars! Cheers that you find my posts informative though. = )

Quick question - is Phenelzine (nardil) working? If so, I wouldn't change anything.

 

 

Otherwise, I had a look at some of the more recent data on atypical depression, let's have a look here...

 

They mention how the inflammatory markers are different, and how IL-6 seems to be a big difference between melancholic and atypical depression - they also mention how metabolic dysfunction is more common in Atypical, and less with HPA-axis dysfunction... Hmm... Do you have any problems with weight-gain? Prior to starting Phenelzine (nardil), that is. That would imply more accurately that it is truly Atypical Depression which ails you.

 

I'd go with some combination of anti-inflammatories and IL-6 lowering compounds - also, drugs which help with obesity might be helpful as well, and I think I have some idea as to why... The Hypothalamus is involved in functions regarding obesity, because of the hormones it regulates, Leptin and such.

A drug which effects Dopaminergic function to some degree, but also binds quite a bit to the Hypothalamus, is BUPROPION! I'd try a combination of Bupropion and Naltrexone, somethnig like MySimba.

 

As such:

 

Omega-3 high-dose

Pramlintide (amylin analogue, a drug for diabetes, but it should help with obesity as well)

Bupropion

 

Naltrexone (it might also be beneficial to skip Nalt and instead use CERC-501, which is a selective Kappa-antagonist - these drugs increase dopaminergic activity as well, and are being researched for the treatment of addiction and anhedonia)

 

Sertraline (the most stimulating SSRI, since they're the modern AD's with the most evidence backing lowering IL-6)

 

 

 

BTW, there's evidence that people whom are treated with a nitro rocket-fuel combo of Venlafaxine and Bupropion, which have Atypical Depression, actually appear to have Bipolar Type 2, and then they become UTTERLY manic... might be a good idea to taper the drugs if you become manic and then put in some Aripiprazole or BREXpiprazole to take care of the problem while you increase some parts of dopaminergic activity. Just an idea, if you turn out to be Bipolar as well...

 

 

Of course, all of my ideas are based on the idea that you're having some weight-gain as well, if you DON'T...! Then f*** if I know what to do... : O

 

 

References:

-------------------

Atypical depression Puzzled? How to piece together symptoms and treatments

http://www.mdedge.co...mptoms/page/0/2

 

Evidence for a differential role of HPA-axis function, inflammation and metabolic syndrome in melancholic versus atypical depression

https://search.proqu...holar&cbl=44096

 

Leptin Dysregulation Is Specifically Associated With Major Depression With Atypical Features: Evidence for a Mechanism Connecting Obesity and Depression☆

http://www.sciencedi...006322315009518

 

Elevated IL-6 levels in patients with atypical depression but not in patients with typical depression

http://www.sciencedi...165178114001346

 

Effects of Ketamine on Atypical and Typical Symptoms of Depression

http://www.biologica...(17)31247-7/pdf

 

There is some evidence towards the idea that it's more the TYpical and not ATypical forms of of depression which are helped by Ketamine btw - this has relevance regarding NSI-189 and Atyp Dep, because Ketamine causes very robust neurogenesis thanks to its AMPA-agonism which induces BDNF-production - this implies that Atypical Depression may not be one of the forms of depression that has all that much to do with loss of brain-mass.

 

Neuropsychological changes in melancholic and atypical depression: A systematic review

http://www.sciencedi...149763416301890

 

The idea that Atypical Depression isn't linked to impaired neurogenesis is backed up by the study above, which implies that cognition is greatly more diminished in Typical Depression than in Atypical Depression - this is fully in line with the idea that neurogenesis is impaired in Typical Depression.

 

 

Effect of combined naltrexone and bupropion therapy on the brain's reactivity to food cues

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4010969/

 

A Review of the Neuropharmacology of Bupropion, a Dual Norepinephrine and Dopamine Reuptake Inhibitor

https://www.ncbi.nlm...cles/PMC514842/

 

 

The Effect of Antidepressant Medication Treatment on Serum Levels of Inflammatory Cytokines: A Meta-Analysis

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3194072/

 

Impact of Antidepressants on Cytokine Production of Depressed Patients in Vitro

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3847723/

 

 

Cytokines plasma levels during antidepressant treatment with sertraline and transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS): results from a factorial, randomized, controlled trial

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4081040/

 

(the above study actually shows that Sertraline does indeed lower IL-6 levels ever, ever so slightly... although it also comes to the conclusion that cytokine-levels weren't too relevant to depression - HOWever...! The study is not designed to take into account the differences between typical and atypical depression, and as such, it may be irrelevant the conclusions they come to, because they were ALL using regular depressed patients, and not patients with Atypical depression,)

[VastEmptiness]

Did anyone of you use shipitto in Europe to receive the shipment and if so, what did you write on the customs declaration? Also did some of you order to Germany precisely?

Scared of running out here after having two letters not arrive by now.

I am on my second cycle of NSI and its helping tremendously. Right now I am taking:

- 40mg NSI freebase sublingually (morning), i used to take 3x a day, but this seems to suffice with the other anti-depressants.

- 3x 40mg tianeptine

- 2x 2000 mg st johns wort (morning, noon)

 

Thanks for the recommendation of adding in an MAO-I. Seems to make a major difference.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Did anyone of you use shipitto in Europe to receive the shipment and if so, what did you write on the customs declaration? Also did some of you order to Germany precisely?

Scared of running out here after having two letters not arrive by now.

I am on my second cycle of NSI and its helping tremendously. Right now I am taking:

- 40mg NSI freebase sublingually (morning), i used to take 3x a day, but this seems to suffice with the other anti-depressants.

- 3x 40mg tianeptine

- 2x 2000 mg st johns wort (morning, noon)

 

Thanks for the recommendation of adding in an MAO-I. Seems to make a major difference.

 

It should be noted that SJW isn't an MAOI... it works via various different mechanisms, one of them is similar to MAOI's, but not quite. However, I am surprised that you DARE to use SJW with TWO other antidepressants...! It interferes with nearly every enzymatic process in the body, and therefore causes unpredictable effects when combined with other drugs.

 

Considering we DON'T know how NSI-189 metabolises, and not much about Tianeptine either, I wouldn't have used it in this cocktail...

 

 

Of course, since it's actually working, and seemingly without any greater side-effects, then I suppose you should simply carry on, but still... It's the last antidepressant I would have combined with experimental compounds.

 

I don't recommend anybody else try this combo though.

Edited by Stinkorninjor, 06 September 2017 - 03:03 PM.

[jaiho]

SJW is a dirty drug, pharmacologically.

Its also not very effective for severe cases. But has a benign side effect profile.

 

Moclobemide goes fantastic with NSI from my experience with them. And Tianeptine works in synergy even further with Moclobemide.

[jaybird10 2]

SJW is a dirty drug, pharmacologically.
Its also not very effective for severe cases. But has a benign side effect profile.

Moclobemide goes fantastic with NSI from my experience with them. And Tianeptine works in synergy even further with Moclobemide.

Is moclobemide worth trying? I havent heard much positive reviews.

Edited by jaybird10 2, 07 September 2017 - 10:02 PM.

[jaiho]

 

SJW is a dirty drug, pharmacologically.
Its also not very effective for severe cases. But has a benign side effect profile.

Moclobemide goes fantastic with NSI from my experience with them. And Tianeptine works in synergy even further with Moclobemide.

Is moclobemide worth trying? I havent heard much positive reviews.

 

 

On it's own i'd say not really. NSI goes well with MAOIs in my experience but with NSI having such an unknown mechanism of action i have no idea why it works and what the risks are.

[Strangelove]

Has anyone combined Agmatine with NSI-189...? Curious whether it would be a positive experience overall or 

exacerbate the common anxiety side-effect.

 

Little update for those who are curious: I'm on 60mg of 'Nardil'/Phenelzine daily, and the past 3 days I had been experimenting with NSI-189 usage for the first time ever, 20mg a day, Phosphate, taken in the morning.

Sadly, I am not continuing to use NSI-189 as of today, as I became extremely anxiety-ridden & socially avoidant/phobic. 

 

Not that NSI-189 was without it's benefits; in a strangely hard to describe way, it DID improve my mood + outlook. I somewhat agree with people who say that there is a vague feeling to NSI-189 reminiscant of microdosing with psychedelics... would be curious to find out if there is some identical action that NSI-189 and microdosed psychedelics share in regards to perhaps aldosterone or something.

 

Also, it did seem that my cognition was vastly improved as well, but I simply cannot chose improved cognitive functioning and somewhat-noticeable mood elevation when it comes with the baggage of intense social fear.

I even tried using Kratom to mitigate these anxious feelings yesterday, but it didn't do very much to help. Oddly, I feel that NSI-189 seemed to actually block much of the mood-elevating properties of Kratom as well as energizing effect.

 

I might come back to NSI-189 at some point if I can figure out how to reliably eliminate the social anxiousness/general overall increase in anxiety through co-administration of Noopept or similar. Need to do more digging into the mechanisms behind NSI-189 and try to understand how it works (somewhat)

 

Is it possible that you are using too much? 

 

According to neuralstem test results you get increased neuron mass in the left hippocampus (the "talking" one compared with the right for images) and at a lower degree the right amygdala that can give anxiety. It seems to me that the majority of the anxiety that some experience from NSI-189 (others get antianxiety effects) could greatly reduced by.

 

1. Adding tianeptine, noopept, l-theanine, etizolam etc. Greyfox, in case you try again, I suggest for social anxiety to lower the dose and add tianeptine sulfate first that is a good social combo, but yes noopept is also a good combination.

 

2. Not using large doses in periods of "upheaval" when an objective external event needs a solution, and you are under a state of high anxiety. NSI-189 can increase self confidence, gives a positive spin to ideas that involve the self (increased self worth) and boost mood and mental energy in ways that one should benefit from psychoanalytic traditions (if they were effective) but the positive "introverted thinking" state that NSI-189 brings to many, is not the best state to calmly think out problems under stress, you can further overthing, and hyperanalyze, and from my experience and the experience of others could further increase anxiety in pressing life circumstaces. 

 

In a period of loosing a good paying position (with two loans to repay) I could not use NSI-189 due to even higher anxiety from overthinking my situetion. Nevertheless due to the increased mental energy I was getting from it, I continued with small doses, plus tianeptine and etizolam. When I got again a position that could support my house/car loans and everyday expences, it was like using a completely different chemical, if it was not the same third party tested batch, from the same zip log bag in my drawer, I would be 100% sure that is something completely different. I would get increased anxiety during a difficult situation and antianxiety and mood boost in other occasions with the same chemical!

 

3. It seems NSI-189 targets parts of the mammalian brain at a greater degree (at least in my experience) than the neocortex, its possible as hippocampus and amygdala are interellated brain areas, its very much a matter of dosing to get mostly (or hopefully only) positive effects. Normally increased hippocampus function shut off the emotional amygdale, but a very active hippocampus (from an overtly large dose) could possibly cause what some call a hippocampus/amygdala "spileage" (I have actually seen the term in acaedemic journals) when increased hippocampal activation can "spill" activity in the amygdalae instead of shutting them down. So Instead of having a cold rational approach "an overdose" could give mostly left amygdala activation (the positive emotionality some mention that helps with anhedonia) or the right amygdala (negative emotionality others mention as an anxiety side effect) when NSI-189 would not activate directly these emotional structures with a smaller dose, giving only cognitive effects.The 40mg doses used in the studies is not for everyone, it has been discussed in the past some years now, many use a lower dose, few use a higher dose, but I would suggest a try out with only 10-20mg first.

[greyfox]

 

Has anyone combined Agmatine with NSI-189...? Curious whether it would be a positive experience overall or 

exacerbate the common anxiety side-effect.

 

Little update for those who are curious: I'm on 60mg of 'Nardil'/Phenelzine daily, and the past 3 days I had been experimenting with NSI-189 usage for the first time ever, 20mg a day, Phosphate, taken in the morning.

Sadly, I am not continuing to use NSI-189 as of today, as I became extremely anxiety-ridden & socially avoidant/phobic. 

 

Not that NSI-189 was without it's benefits; in a strangely hard to describe way, it DID improve my mood + outlook. I somewhat agree with people who say that there is a vague feeling to NSI-189 reminiscant of microdosing with psychedelics... would be curious to find out if there is some identical action that NSI-189 and microdosed psychedelics share in regards to perhaps aldosterone or something.

 

Also, it did seem that my cognition was vastly improved as well, but I simply cannot chose improved cognitive functioning and somewhat-noticeable mood elevation when it comes with the baggage of intense social fear.

I even tried using Kratom to mitigate these anxious feelings yesterday, but it didn't do very much to help. Oddly, I feel that NSI-189 seemed to actually block much of the mood-elevating properties of Kratom as well as energizing effect.

 

I might come back to NSI-189 at some point if I can figure out how to reliably eliminate the social anxiousness/general overall increase in anxiety through co-administration of Noopept or similar. Need to do more digging into the mechanisms behind NSI-189 and try to understand how it works (somewhat)

 

Is it possible that you are using too much? 

 

According to neuralstem test results you get increased neuron mass in the left hippocampus (the "talking" one compared with the right for images) and at a lower degree the right amygdala that can give anxiety. It seems to me that the majority of the anxiety that some experience from NSI-189 (others get antianxiety effects) could greatly reduced by.

 

1. Adding tianeptine, noopept, l-theanine, etizolam etc. Greyfox, in case you try again, I suggest for social anxiety to lower the dose and add tianeptine sulfate first that is a good social combo, but yes noopept is also a good combination.

 

2. Not using large doses in periods of "upheaval" when an objective external event needs a solution, and you are under a state of high anxiety. NSI-189 can increase self confidence, gives a positive spin to ideas that involve the self (increased self worth) and boost mood and mental energy in ways that one should benefit from psychoanalytic traditions (if they were effective) but the positive "introverted thinking" state that NSI-189 brings to many, is not the best state to calmly think out problems under stress, you can further overthing, and hyperanalyze, and from my experience and the experience of others could further increase anxiety in pressing life circumstaces. 

 

In a period of loosing a good paying position (with two loans to repay) I could not use NSI-189 due to even higher anxiety from overthinking my situetion. Nevertheless due to the increased mental energy I was getting from it, I continued with small doses, plus tianeptine and etizolam. When I got again a position that could support my house/car loans and everyday expences, it was like using a completely different chemical, if it was not the same third party tested batch, from the same zip log bag in my drawer, I would be 100% sure that is something completely different. I would get increased anxiety during a difficult situation and antianxiety and mood boost in other occasions with the same chemical!

 

3. It seems NSI-189 targets parts of the mammalian brain at a greater degree (at least in my experience) than the neocortex, its possible as hippocampus and amygdala are interellated brain areas, its very much a matter of dosing to get mostly (or hopefully only) positive effects. Normally increased hippocampus function shut off the emotional amygdale, but a very active hippocampus (from an overtly large dose) could possibly cause what some call a hippocampus/amygdala "spileage" (I have actually seen the term in acaedemic journals) when increased hippocampal activation can "spill" activity in the amygdalae instead of shutting them down. So Instead of having a cold rational approach "an overdose" could give mostly left amygdala activation (the positive emotionality some mention that helps with anhedonia) or the right amygdala (negative emotionality others mention as an anxiety side effect) when NSI-189 would not activate directly these emotional structures with a smaller dose, giving only cognitive effects.The 40mg doses used in the studies is not for everyone, it has been discussed in the past some years now, many use a lower dose, few use a higher dose, but I would suggest a try out with only 10-20mg first.

 

Excellent information, Strangelove! Thank you so much for taking the time to discuss the above content and share it with me :-)

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Here are a few questions I have:

 

1) ~ Do you think I should take my Nardil dose first, followed by NSI-189? Or NSI-189 first, followed by Nardil later on? Or can they be taken together at the same time of day?

 

2) ~ Since I take Nardil with food on my stomach, does this mean I would need to take it seperately from NSI-189 in order for NSI to be absorbed on an empty stomach...? (I use the Phosphate version)

 

3) ~ Can you explain how Noopept feels in alleviating NSI-189 social anxiety / anxiety, versus using Tianeptine sulfate?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Lastly....

 

There was a recent post made on reddit.com/r/DrugNerds, regarding a study being conducted by UC Davis School of Medicine, titled:

 

"Kappa opioid receptor and social stress in males and females"

(https://ucdavis.pure...les-and-females)

 

from the text:

 

"the field is working on the assumption that KOR antagonists have antidepressant properties. Our hypothesis suggests that KOR agonists will have stronger antidepressant properties for individuals exposed to long term psychosocial stress."

 

+

 

"Kappa opioid receptors inhibit serotonergic tone by inhibiting the activity of dorsal raphe nucleus (DRN) serotonin neurons. Increased serotonergic tone is linked to increased sensitivity to threat and increased inhibition of the HPA axis, and psychosocial stress can increase baseline activity of DRN serotonin neurons. By studying monogamous California mice, we are one of the only lab groups with the capability to study the effects of social defeat in both males and females. Females exposed to defeat exhibit social avoidance to non- threatening social stimuli. We hypothesize that defeat stress results in desensitization of the inhibitory effects of KOR on the DRN, which facilitates social avoidance. We predict that this effect is greater in females than males. If KOR inhibition of the DRN is stronger in stressed males, then social avoidance show be diminished and baseline corticosterone levels should be high. This is exactly what we have observed. Intriguingly, women diagnosed with depression have been reported to show stronger avoidance of social cues while recent work suggests that elevated baseline cortisol levels are more likely to occur in men with depression. First we use place preference studies to examine how defeat stress affects the aversive and rewarding properties of KOR. Second, we use multilabel immunohistochemistry to examine KOR induced changes in extracellular signal regulated kinase (ERK) and p38 MAP kinase (p38) in serotonin neurons in the dorsal raphe nucleus (DRN). These pathways are activated by KOR. Finally, we use site specific manipulations to test whether changes in serotonergic signaling mediate the effects of KOR on aversion, social interaction, and corticosterone."

 

 

Do you think that this MIGHT indicate a breakthrough in understanding the mechanisms behind ATYPICAL depression, and how to possibly treat it's underlying mechanisms in the brain using KOR antagonists...?

 

I ask because,

 

A) It is said that women suffer in far greater number typically from atypical depression than do men,

 

B) The above study shows that indeed, if I'm correct about this information in relating to atypical depressive symptoms, that women should in theory truly suffer in greater number from this depressive subtype than men (although I myself am male), due to the fact that the female California mice had greater effect of social avoidance via desensitization of the inhibitory effects of KOR on the DRN, WHILE THE MALE MICE HAD STRONGER KOR INHIBITION OF THE DRN AND THEREFORE SOCIAL AVOIDANCE WAS DIMINISHED + BASELINE CORTICOSTERONE LEVELS WERE HIGH.

 

C) It has been shown in numerous studies done on atypical depression that it relates to LOW cortisol levels and LOW glucocorticoids / desensitization to glucocorticoids , and the above paper shows that (the male mice having higher levels of CORTICOSTERONE (a GLUCOCORTICOID!), AND THEREFORE = DIMINISHED SOCIAL AVOIDANCE)

 

 

I am VERY excited to hear from you, Stinkorninjor, and others! 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Strangelove]

I ll just give a short answer for now. I cannot really tell for Nardil and NSI-189 but I think using them together at the same time would not be a problem. I do not think we have a clear answer if using NSI-189 with food or without food is better. You may want to contact the member Bukujutsu that has a long experience using both drugs together.

 

NSI-189 and tianeptine, can give a "warm social state" and a carefree attitude that can make small talk easier, this is from my experience and the experience of a few other members.

NSI-189 and noopept (according to an old, long thread also) could give some social multi-tasking abilities in larger groups where somehow you can navigate social envinronments on "auto pilot", something that I have experienced myself.

 

Having said that, and having read experiences from some socially anxious indivinduals that use strong anxiolytic combos, I am not sure if the social boost you get is enough on its own.

 

KOR antagonism in theory is great, but I have not followed it much yet. Also, as you connect this with social avoidance/anxiety, I am wondering if there is some close connection with hormones also?

 

https://www.amazon.c...id=RRRRN0EKUKC4

 

Edited by Strangelove, 13 September 2017 - 05:53 PM.

[SoundsAboutRight]

 

I see now after this happened to me how ridiculous it is to try some untested ineffective counterfeit chemical when safe , proven neuroprotective, neurotrophic/neuroregenerating substances like Cerebrolyson exist which work against almost all psychiatric and neurological ilnesses in clinical trials, including treatment resistant depression.

Cerebrolysin has huge benefits for every brain, its even given to tens of thousands of babies in Russia to enhance brain development and treat even the most mild developmental delays with success.

A interesting study in detoxing heroin addicts I read showed that only 20 injections of 10ml Cerebrolysin ameliorated almost all opiate withdrawal and abstinence symtoms, cured their depression and increased their IQ from 88 to 107 points whereas the Placebo groups IQ increased only three points after withdrawal and all suffered severe absitence symptoms.

I havent personally noticed as huge of an effect from Cerebrolysin as reported in those studies but it has helped me more than anything else from recovering from psychiatric drugs and NSI-189 toxicity.

 

Do you have some sources for those Cerebrolysin claims? Generally it seems to be quite well-praised in nootropic communities. I did a cycle of 15 x 10 ml, and was expecting a whole lot after all the good reviews I had read. Unfortunately, I felt nothing. I'm still interested in reading more about it, however. 

 

You might want to try another cycle of 15 if you have the cash to spend. I have currently completed 21 injects with another 34 in the weeks to come. There are a few reviews of Cerebrolysin that mentioned results were not seen until the beginning of the third week. Other mention that optimal results were not seen until about 2.5 months or two complete cycles. This is why I have chosen to do 55 total injects which is roughly 2.5 months.

[SoundsAboutRight]

I ll just give a short answer for now. I cannot really tell for Nardil and NSI-189 but I think using them together at the same time would not be a problem. I do not think we have a clear answer if using NSI-189 with food or without food is better. You may want to contact the member Bukujutsu that has a long experience using both drugs together.

 

NSI-189 and tianeptine, can give a "warm social state" and a carefree attitude that can make small talk easier, this is from my experience and the experience of a few other members.

NSI-189 and noopept (according to an old, long thread also) could give some social multi-tasking abilities in larger groups where somehow you can navigate social envinronments on "auto pilot", something that I have experienced myself.

 

Having said that, and having read experiences from some socially anxious indivinduals that use strong anxiolytic combos, I am not sure if the social boost you get is enough on its own.

 

KOR antagonism in theory is great, but I have not followed it much yet. Also, as you connect this with social avoidance/anxiety, I am wondering if there is some close connection with hormones also?

 

https://www.amazon.c...id=RRRRN0EKUKC4

I just wanted to clarify - Is the study that Greyfox attached to his post state that a KOR agonist is best for males and a KOR antagonist best for woman?

 

Meaning Salvia microdosing for men & CERC-501 for woman?

[Kaine]

 

 

I see now after this happened to me how ridiculous it is to try some untested ineffective counterfeit chemical when safe , proven neuroprotective, neurotrophic/neuroregenerating substances like Cerebrolyson exist which work against almost all psychiatric and neurological ilnesses in clinical trials, including treatment resistant depression.

Cerebrolysin has huge benefits for every brain, its even given to tens of thousands of babies in Russia to enhance brain development and treat even the most mild developmental delays with success.

A interesting study in detoxing heroin addicts I read showed that only 20 injections of 10ml Cerebrolysin ameliorated almost all opiate withdrawal and abstinence symtoms, cured their depression and increased their IQ from 88 to 107 points whereas the Placebo groups IQ increased only three points after withdrawal and all suffered severe absitence symptoms.

I havent personally noticed as huge of an effect from Cerebrolysin as reported in those studies but it has helped me more than anything else from recovering from psychiatric drugs and NSI-189 toxicity.

 

Do you have some sources for those Cerebrolysin claims? Generally it seems to be quite well-praised in nootropic communities. I did a cycle of 15 x 10 ml, and was expecting a whole lot after all the good reviews I had read. Unfortunately, I felt nothing. I'm still interested in reading more about it, however. 

 

You might want to try another cycle of 15 if you have the cash to spend. I have currently completed 21 injects with another 34 in the weeks to come. There are a few reviews of Cerebrolysin that mentioned results were not seen until the beginning of the third week. Other mention that optimal results were not seen until about 2.5 months or two complete cycles. This is why I have chosen to do 55 total injects which is roughly 2.5 months.

 

 

That's quite a lot of injections! Are you doing 10 ml? I might run another cycle of 15-20 days. I just hate the IM injections. I've gotten used to the injections, but it takes forever. I first do 5 ml in vastus lateralis in one leg, then the last 5 ml in the other leg. Every time I hit a nerve at least once, so I have to pull out the needle and start all over again with prepping etc. I might try and do the whole 10 ml at once though, I'm just not sure whether it's safe, as that amount in one spot is generally not advised according to most of the sites I've gathered info from. 

 

It seems I'm more or less a non-responder in terms of nootropics. I've gone from the softer stuff to the more hardcore now with Cerebrolysin for example. I did a 10-day cycle of Cortexin some time after, also with no effects at all. I did one month of NSI-189 just recently, starting with 40 mg, but stepped it up to 60-80 mg after around 10 days - no effects whatsoever. The only stuff that really works for me is methylphenidate, but that is what messed me up in the first place and why I got into nootropics, so I try to avoid that. However, it only makes me focused and a little more motivated, so it's not really a cognitive enhancer in any way.

[SoundsAboutRight]

That's quite a lot of injections! Are you doing 10 ml? I might run another cycle of 15-20 days. I just hate the IM injections. I've gotten used to the injections, but it takes forever. I first do 5 ml in vastus lateralis in one leg, then the last 5 ml in the other leg. Every time I hit a nerve at least once, so I have to pull out the needle and start all over again with prepping etc. I might try and do the whole 10 ml at once though, I'm just not sure whether it's safe, as that amount in one spot is generally not advised according to most of the sites I've gathered info from. 

 

It seems I'm more or less a non-responder in terms of nootropics. I've gone from the softer stuff to the more hardcore now with Cerebrolysin for example. I did a 10-day cycle of Cortexin some time after, also with no effects at all. I did one month of NSI-189 just recently, starting with 40 mg, but stepped it up to 60-80 mg after around 10 days - no effects whatsoever. The only stuff that really works for me is methylphenidate, but that is what messed me up in the first place and why I got into nootropics, so I try to avoid that. However, it only makes me focused and a little more motivated, so it's not really a cognitive enhancer in any way.

 

I think I have heard these drugs are rarely very effective on the healthy. If you are not cognitive deficient to some degree maybe this is why you are not experiencing the benefits?

 

I do not advise that you inject the entire 10ml in the same location. When I was researching injection methods I am fairly certain even 5ml is considered by some to be the UPPER LIMIT.

 

How do you inject the CRB? Do you use the Z-Method?

 

Place your thumb inside the empty space in the quadriceps and then take the thumb and index finger and spread them apart stretching the injection zone. There should be no blood if done properly.

 

One user on Youtube mentioned that there seemed to be more nerves in the upper portion of the vastus lateralis than the lower section.

Edited by mfad, 14 September 2017 - 11:08 PM.

[Kaine]

 

That's quite a lot of injections! Are you doing 10 ml? I might run another cycle of 15-20 days. I just hate the IM injections. I've gotten used to the injections, but it takes forever. I first do 5 ml in vastus lateralis in one leg, then the last 5 ml in the other leg. Every time I hit a nerve at least once, so I have to pull out the needle and start all over again with prepping etc. I might try and do the whole 10 ml at once though, I'm just not sure whether it's safe, as that amount in one spot is generally not advised according to most of the sites I've gathered info from. 

 

It seems I'm more or less a non-responder in terms of nootropics. I've gone from the softer stuff to the more hardcore now with Cerebrolysin for example. I did a 10-day cycle of Cortexin some time after, also with no effects at all. I did one month of NSI-189 just recently, starting with 40 mg, but stepped it up to 60-80 mg after around 10 days - no effects whatsoever. The only stuff that really works for me is methylphenidate, but that is what messed me up in the first place and why I got into nootropics, so I try to avoid that. However, it only makes me focused and a little more motivated, so it's not really a cognitive enhancer in any way.

 

I think I have heard these drugs are rarely very effective on the healthy. If you are not cognitive deficient to some degree maybe this is why you are not experiencing the benefits?

 

I do not advise that you inject the entire 10ml in the same location. When I was researching injection methods I am fairly certain even 5ml is considered by some to be the UPPER LIMIT.

 

How do you inject the CRB? Do you use the Z-Method?

 

Place your thumb inside the empty space in the quadriceps and then take the thumb and index finger and spread them apart stretching the injection zone. There should be no blood if done properly.

 

One user on Youtube mentioned that there seemed to be more nerves in the upper portion of the vastus lateralis than the lower section.

 

 

Originally, methylphenidate use ruined my motivation, then later a depressive episode damaged my cognitive abilities, my memory and has caused me anxiety (perhaps due to the lack of confidence that comes from the first two). Cognitively I feel very slow now and as if I've lost 15-20 IQ points. I have big problems with complex problems, lack the ability to put the pieces together in my head and are thereby easily overwhelmed by any sort of slightly complex task. Generally I feel very confused; previously I used to be a very organized person who always were able to keep track of most things in my head and good at planning, but this ability is more or less gone now. I now struggle to stay organized, forget things all the time and everything is constantly muddled to me.

The only thing that helps me is exercise. It gives me a mood-boost and a little more motivation, but more importantly makes me sleep better which makes me a little more clear-headed. When I don't exercise, I always wake up tired, often feeling very heavy-headed, and with a kind of pressure and ache in my head.

 

When I read about CRB it all seemed so promising to me. It also felt like quite a drastic step to take, but I've reached a point where I'm more or less willing to throw anything at my body (though I always read as much as I can about a substance and assess the risks before trying it of course).

I always aspirate and blood is not the problem - I've only aspirated blood once, which was during one of my first injections, but seemed to be due to just bad luck. I have tried injecting both in the upper and lower part, but there doesn't seem to be one part which is better than the other in terms of nerve-concentration.

Yes, most places they state that 5 ml is the upper limit. However, I have come across one site that states vastus lateralis can take 8-15 ml: https://pocketdentis...cular-sedation/

I still wonder what the dangers of injecting too much into one site is. I have pretty big and muscular thighs so I'm thinking that would allow for greater volume than 5 ml.

Edited by Kaine, 17 September 2017 - 05:30 AM.

[SoundsAboutRight]

 

 

That's quite a lot of injections! Are you doing 10 ml? I might run another cycle of 15-20 days. I just hate the IM injections. I've gotten used to the injections, but it takes forever. I first do 5 ml in vastus lateralis in one leg, then the last 5 ml in the other leg. Every time I hit a nerve at least once, so I have to pull out the needle and start all over again with prepping etc. I might try and do the whole 10 ml at once though, I'm just not sure whether it's safe, as that amount in one spot is generally not advised according to most of the sites I've gathered info from. 

 

It seems I'm more or less a non-responder in terms of nootropics. I've gone from the softer stuff to the more hardcore now with Cerebrolysin for example. I did a 10-day cycle of Cortexin some time after, also with no effects at all. I did one month of NSI-189 just recently, starting with 40 mg, but stepped it up to 60-80 mg after around 10 days - no effects whatsoever. The only stuff that really works for me is methylphenidate, but that is what messed me up in the first place and why I got into nootropics, so I try to avoid that. However, it only makes me focused and a little more motivated, so it's not really a cognitive enhancer in any way.

 

I think I have heard these drugs are rarely very effective on the healthy. If you are not cognitive deficient to some degree maybe this is why you are not experiencing the benefits?

 

I do not advise that you inject the entire 10ml in the same location. When I was researching injection methods I am fairly certain even 5ml is considered by some to be the UPPER LIMIT.

 

How do you inject the CRB? Do you use the Z-Method?

 

Place your thumb inside the empty space in the quadriceps and then take the thumb and index finger and spread them apart stretching the injection zone. There should be no blood if done properly.

 

One user on Youtube mentioned that there seemed to be more nerves in the upper portion of the vastus lateralis than the lower section.

 

 

Originally, methylphenidate use ruined my motivation, then later a depressive episode damaged my cognitive abilities, my memory and has caused me anxiety (perhaps due to the lack of confidence that comes from the first two). Cognitively I feel very slow now and as if I've lost 15-20 IQ points. I have big problems with complex problems, lack the ability to put the pieces together in my head and are thereby easily overwhelmed by any sort of slightly complex task. Generally I feel very confused; previously I used to be a very organized person who always were able to keep track of most things in my head and good at planning, but this ability is more or less gone now. I now struggle to stay organized, forget things all the time and everything is constantly muddled to me.

The only thing that helps me is exercise. It gives me a mood-boost and a little more motivation, but more importantly makes me sleep better which makes me a little more clear-headed. When I don't exercise, I always wake up tired, often feeling very heavy-headed, and with a kind of pressure and ache in my head.

 

When I read about CRB it all seemed so promising to me. It also felt like quite a drastic step to take, but I've reached a point where I'm more or less willing to throw anything at my body (though I always read as much as I can about a substance and assess the risks before trying it of course).

I always aspirate and blood is not the problem - I've only aspirated blood once, which was during one of my first injections, but seemed to be due to just bad luck. I have tried injecting both in the upper and lower part, but there doesn't seem to be one part which is better than the other in terms of nerve-concentration.

Yes, most places they state that 5 ml is the upper limit. However, I have come across one site that states vastus lateralis can take 8-15 ml: https://pocketdentis...cular-sedation/

I still wonder what the dangers of injecting too much into one site is. I have pretty big and muscular thighs so I'm thinking that would allow for greater volume than 5 ml.

 

After dosing about the 20th capsule I have decided to no longer aspirate as I have read that there might be some negative consequences for doing so. Also after doing roughly 50+ shots I can definitely tell when I enter a vein. That SHIT hurts. Entering the muscle is quick and can sometimes cause slight discomfort, but the vein has a prolonged painful effect. This is just my experience though.

 

I do not know if you have tried Cortexin which is another Russian nootropic that some have experienced benefits from when CRB did nothing for them. I cannot attest to it just yet though. The shipment is coming from Russia in about two weeks. It will be interesting to see if I will derive any benefits from it.

 

I agree with you on exercise. It has always been effective for me. I would recommend that you try out power-lifting if you have not tried it. I find that the heavier the weight the more helpful the routine. There is something about heavier lifting that is more effective - possibly increased concentration and unification of mind as you "let go" from the excessive weight lift placed on the body.

 

Edited by mfad, 17 September 2017 - 05:56 AM.

[Kaine]

 

 

 

That's quite a lot of injections! Are you doing 10 ml? I might run another cycle of 15-20 days. I just hate the IM injections. I've gotten used to the injections, but it takes forever. I first do 5 ml in vastus lateralis in one leg, then the last 5 ml in the other leg. Every time I hit a nerve at least once, so I have to pull out the needle and start all over again with prepping etc. I might try and do the whole 10 ml at once though, I'm just not sure whether it's safe, as that amount in one spot is generally not advised according to most of the sites I've gathered info from. 

 

It seems I'm more or less a non-responder in terms of nootropics. I've gone from the softer stuff to the more hardcore now with Cerebrolysin for example. I did a 10-day cycle of Cortexin some time after, also with no effects at all. I did one month of NSI-189 just recently, starting with 40 mg, but stepped it up to 60-80 mg after around 10 days - no effects whatsoever. The only stuff that really works for me is methylphenidate, but that is what messed me up in the first place and why I got into nootropics, so I try to avoid that. However, it only makes me focused and a little more motivated, so it's not really a cognitive enhancer in any way.

 

I think I have heard these drugs are rarely very effective on the healthy. If you are not cognitive deficient to some degree maybe this is why you are not experiencing the benefits?

 

I do not advise that you inject the entire 10ml in the same location. When I was researching injection methods I am fairly certain even 5ml is considered by some to be the UPPER LIMIT.

 

How do you inject the CRB? Do you use the Z-Method?

 

Place your thumb inside the empty space in the quadriceps and then take the thumb and index finger and spread them apart stretching the injection zone. There should be no blood if done properly.

 

One user on Youtube mentioned that there seemed to be more nerves in the upper portion of the vastus lateralis than the lower section.

 

 

Originally, methylphenidate use ruined my motivation, then later a depressive episode damaged my cognitive abilities, my memory and has caused me anxiety (perhaps due to the lack of confidence that comes from the first two). Cognitively I feel very slow now and as if I've lost 15-20 IQ points. I have big problems with complex problems, lack the ability to put the pieces together in my head and are thereby easily overwhelmed by any sort of slightly complex task. Generally I feel very confused; previously I used to be a very organized person who always were able to keep track of most things in my head and good at planning, but this ability is more or less gone now. I now struggle to stay organized, forget things all the time and everything is constantly muddled to me.

The only thing that helps me is exercise. It gives me a mood-boost and a little more motivation, but more importantly makes me sleep better which makes me a little more clear-headed. When I don't exercise, I always wake up tired, often feeling very heavy-headed, and with a kind of pressure and ache in my head.

 

When I read about CRB it all seemed so promising to me. It also felt like quite a drastic step to take, but I've reached a point where I'm more or less willing to throw anything at my body (though I always read as much as I can about a substance and assess the risks before trying it of course).

I always aspirate and blood is not the problem - I've only aspirated blood once, which was during one of my first injections, but seemed to be due to just bad luck. I have tried injecting both in the upper and lower part, but there doesn't seem to be one part which is better than the other in terms of nerve-concentration.

Yes, most places they state that 5 ml is the upper limit. However, I have come across one site that states vastus lateralis can take 8-15 ml: https://pocketdentis...cular-sedation/

I still wonder what the dangers of injecting too much into one site is. I have pretty big and muscular thighs so I'm thinking that would allow for greater volume than 5 ml.

 

After dosing about the 20th capsule I have decided to no longer aspirate as I have read that there might be some negative consequences for doing so. Also after doing roughly 50+ shots I can definitely tell when I enter a vein. That SHIT hurts. Entering the muscle is quick and can sometimes cause slight discomfort, but the vein has a prolonged painful effect. This is just my experience though.

 

I do not know if you have tried Cortexin which is another Russian nootropic that some have experienced benefits from when CRB did nothing for them. I cannot attest to it just yet though. The shipment is coming from Russia in about two weeks. It will be interesting to see if I will derive any benefits from it.

 

I agree with you on exercise. It has always been effective for me. I would recommend that you try out power-lifting if you have not tried it. I find that the heavier the weight the more helpful the routine. There is something about heavier lifting that is more effective - possibly increased concentration and unification of mind as you "let go" from the excessive weight lift placed on the body.

 

 

What negative consequences do you mean? That one time I aspirated blood I couldn't feel that I had hit a vein.

 

As you would see in one of my previous posts I tried Cortexin shortly after Cerebrolysin, also with no effects. I still have some left, and might give it another try where I mix it with Cerebrolysin - I've read about a few people doing that with good effects (they also had effects from the substances seperately, though). Cortexin makes the muscle quite sore after the injection as there isn't anaesthetizer in it as with Cerebrolysin, so mixing them you also get that benefit. After my first injection of Cortexin I got a little worried as my thigh was sore as hell for a while, and I had only tried injecting Cerebrolysin prior to that where I didn't feel any soreness afterwards.

 

I have always loved lifting weights, although not power-lifting as such. From what I've read cardio appears to be a clear winner in terms of brain health, BDNF etc., so I aim at doing at least 20-30 min. of that every day. I really have troubles keeping that habit though, and often end up with weeks of no exercise due to too many stressful factors in my life - so this is obviously a big problem I have struggled with for a long time now.

At the end of the day a mixture of both cardio and weightlifting is probably ideal, but I would prioritize cardio for brain health, although I like weightlifting more. Anyhow, the science in this area still seems to be lacking, so it's probably better just to do what one feels works best for him.

[Twindaddy37]

To those with generalized anxiety or anxiety induced by NSI, might i also suggest you try CBD oil, if you have not already. I find Marijuana a terrible head high, but with CBD i am able to achieve a wonderful sense of calm of body and mind without the mental high. Check out all the studies for it yourself.  I highly recommend you try this if you have not. Its a very useful and safe tool for anxiety that is non habit forming and MUCH more effective than the classic safe anti-anxiety compounds that are thrown around like valerian, l-theanine, ashwaghanda, etc. 

Edited by Twindaddy37, 19 September 2017 - 05:42 PM.

[greyfox]

Any recommendations on a vendor for CBD ?

[Twindaddy37]

Any recommendations on a vendor for CBD ?

 

Sure. I have had good success with www.bluebirdbotanicals.com i use the cbd oil extract 250mg strength. Its a great tool that has gained a solid place in my supplement kit. I have tried pretty much every supplement there is in my search for winners. Currently running a second cycle of BPC 157, both sublingual and subcutaneous to help with old injuries and neurotransmitter support. Will post results when done (approx 3 weeks from now). Of note- i am back on NSI 189 at about 15mg daily phosphate, after a 3 month break. If you are looking for another winner in the anti-anxiety realm, i highly recommend kava kava. Unfortunately i developed the dreaded allergy to it, which was one week of extreme hell, but before that it was the greatest supplement to unwind with at the end of the day. I am not talking about the cheap kava pills from the healthfood store, i'm talking about the kava you can find online from hawaii, that you strain through a bag and drink as a tea. The beauty of kava kava and CBD is that it doesn't seem to down regulate any receptors (unlike benzos or other medications), but anyone can correct me if i am wrong about either of these two substances. I refuse to use any tools that down-regulate anything on the back-end as that will only make things worse. After a year and a half of once a week phenibut use, i found it to be causing some downregulation issues, dropped the dose to 500mg every other week- but now will only use it under rare circumstances- a concert perhaps. 

Edited by Twindaddy37, 20 September 2017 - 03:49 PM.